I am wondering if anyone here has first-hand experience with the Libec LS-38 and would care to comment on it.

I am looking at the LS-38M(2A), the mid spreader model. (http://www.libecusa.com/ls-38m(2a).htm). I would be using it with a Canon XH A1.

I have been using the cheap little TH-M20 with my GL-2 and have found it quite nice for the (very low) price, but need something bigger and better for a new cam. I use a tripod for traditional narrative work so I am looking for smoothness and reliability first. For anything really dynamic the camera would be on a shoulder mount or a crane. Still, I am a bit concerned about the fixed drag on the LS-38.

If I came up with more money, I would go for the Cartoni Focus, but at the moment that looks out of range.

Bill,

There's a review in Nigel Cooper's DV magazine in the UK:

http://www.dvuser.co.uk/back-issues.php

Download the PDF for issue 4. Nigel seems more than pleased with it.

I'm thinking about one of these myself (to replace an ancient wobbly cheapy Velbon) for my VX2100. Now if only any of the UK suppliers had it in stock!

Mike

Thanks for the quick response and the _very_ informative review link. Although the reviewer seems awfully full of himself, the article does provide a lot of useful detail.

That pretty much cinches it for me in favor of the LS-38 unless a lot more money turns up.

Libec is not marketed much in the US either, although some of the more well known dealers do carry it. When I needed to get a replacement part for my little TH-M20 I had no problem getting from the US rep for Libec, so I am not worried about service.

It seems strange that equipment with such high marks among reviewers is not put in front of us more by the manufacturer, but I guess they would have to double the price if they bought ads like Schatler, Vinten, etc do.

No worries Bill - Nigel does have a distinctive style, but at least we know he's put it through his paces.

In the end I settled for an LS37 at offer price from a UK dealer. It's still probably overkill for my VX2100, and at US$700 is cheaper than the LS-38. I could probably have got a Bogen/Manfrotto 503/525 set for that sort of money, but I've heard good things about the Libecs so thought 'why not'.

I'd imagine that some people may prefer to hang on for the better sliding plate on the LS38, I understand the '37 has a more traditional quick-release plate.

I think we'll need to wait a bit longer in the UK for the LS-38 to become more widely available (most Libec dealers just list the LS37, those who list the 38 haven't got it in yet).

Geez, this is an expensive hobby. :D

I've been exchanging email with Brian at Zotz Digital, and he's recommended the Libec 22 for the A1. It's rated at 8.8 pounds. With the camera weighing in at about 5 pounds, and probably a couple of pounds for the tripod adapter plate, it seems like a pretty good fit. It's $400, and the mid level spreader version is $440, and there's a deal going on with a free lanc controller.

Here's a place selling the Libec LS-38 tripod for $550.00. non-sponsor reference removed
I'm looking at a new tripod for my Canon A1 I just ordered and after reading a review, it look like I'm buying a Libec.

Thanks for the info. Note that they are shipping that from NZ so you are really looking at $677.00 to the US, which is pretty close to what many vendors in the US are charging.

For example Zotz quoted me $690 and BHPhoto is asking $675. I would rather spend a few more bucks and buy from one of the DVinfo sponsors, like those two, who are not halfway around the world from me.

At any rate, I'd like to hear from you once you have tried out the combo of camera and tripod together. I am planning to buy both but it may be a few weeks.

Just received my LS-38 from B&H; first impressions are that they are one sturdy set of legs - the whole thing looks like it's very well put together.

Now for the head: the pan on it seems to be excellent, with no stiction that I can detect, very smooth indeed. However, the tilt on mine seems to be something else, with a noticeable soft region before hitting the fluid action, unless I'm missing seeing some adjustment, but I don't think there's anything to adjust. I don't think that will affect the bulk of my uses, but it does seem strange.

However, overall, a very nice set of legs.

Greg,

Which model did you get? Floor spreader or mid-level? I have a mid-level model on back order from them and wonder if they're shipping them now.

Wade, I got the floor spreader version since I wasn't sure how long the mid-level version would take to come in - also I figured that the floor spreader would enable lower level shots. BTW, the instructions are all in Japanese (this model *really* isn't marketed for the US..!) but are fairly self-explanatory since the system is very simplistic. Will be interested to hear your thoughts on the tilt when you get yours.

BTW, the instructions are all in Japanese (this model *really* isn't marketed for the US..!)

Greg,
If you go over to

http://www.libec.co.jp/

They have an "English" version of their site.
Maybe you can find some extra information there.

I took a quick look and found some very basic information at

http://www.libec.co.jp/eng/ls/ls-38-2a/ls-38-2a.html

I have 2 Libec models, the cheaper of them is not very responsive on the "tilt" function.

I bought a middle range Daiwa tripod and found it to be much easier to balance for tilting.

Thanks for the links, Douglas, very useful info there about accessories too.

Greg,
Did it come with 3/8" and 1/4" screws?

Greg,
Did it come with 3/8" and 1/4" screws?

Wade, I don't have it with me right now, but I believe that it came with just one screw.

Thanks for the info. Note that they are shipping that from NZ so you are really looking at $677.00 to the US, which is pretty close to what many vendors in the US are charging.

For example Zotz quoted me $690 and BHPhoto is asking $675. I would rather spend a few more bucks and buy from one of the DVinfo sponsors, like those two, who are not halfway around the world from me.

At any rate, I'd like to hear from you once you have tried out the combo of camera and tripod together. I am planning to buy both but it may be a few weeks.

wow....Zotz quoted you $690 for the Libec LS-38? Zotz quoted me $600 for the Libec LS-38 and $660 for the Libec LS-38M.
Tapeworks Texas cost $575 for the Libec LS-38 and $600 for the Libec LS-38M (Ask for Scott). I went and bought the Libec LS-38M tripod.

Thanks for the price updates Anthony. Please post your opinions of the tripod once you can try it out, especially in light of Greg's comments.

Wade, I don't have it with me right now, but I believe that it came with just one screw.

I have mine now. You're right. One screw. It fit's the A1 so that's 1/4" right? Strange thing is that I read on Libec's European website that it comes with a 3/8" screw. I was thinking I might have to buy the Canon tripod adapter. I wish I could offer some professional feedback but this is my first venture into this level of equipment. BTW, I got the midlevel spreader version. I thought it would be some sort of strap or rubber device, but it's a telescoping aluminum leg setup with a center hub that locks into two positions marked as 45 and 180 degrees. It also comes with these huge rubber feet that snap on and are secured with a beefy rubber strap. I'm impressed with it but I would have probably been impressed with less. ;)

Correction. I noticed the 3/8" screw stored in the head. So... it comes with both.

Well, I figure I'll join the party here. My LS-22 just shipped in from B&H today. Really terrific tripod, as smooth as any of the tripods I've used, holds a ton of weight considering the price, and is really incredibly stable. The only qualm I have with it would be the non-sliding QR plate, but a Manfrotto plate solved that quick enough.

So, add me on to the list of happy Libec customers!

I got the LS22 also. It's pretty lightweight (compared to what I normally use) but that's what I wanted--small and light. It collapses down quite small and weighs practically nothing. The movement is nice and smooth, but unlike an expensive head you have to watch what you're doing at the end of a pan or tilt. You can't just let go of the handle as you do on more expensive heads. If you do, it moves back just a bit. But with care it does the job fine; just what I wanted. I got the Canon tripod adapter plate with the camera, and it's easy to balance.

I looked at the Libec's (I don't remember which models) and ended up purchasing the Cartoni F101 system with the fluid head. I like the head but will pay the price in weight (I'm looking at the bag across the room and remembering how heavy it is). Biil has a good point about the weight consideration - I didn't give that the kind of attention I probably should have; time will tell.

In my working life I schlep around an O'Connor 50 most of the time; for personal fun documentary stuff I'm into smaller and lighter, which is why I got the XH A1 in the first place. So I extended that to the tripod too. Bigger and heavier is always better in a tripod, but at the price of size and weight.

Took some footage outdoors at the weekend, using my new LS-38. Very sturdy set of legs. The head was OK, not sure I'd recommend it on a 20x zoom shot, but overall it was fine.

Took some footage outdoors at the weekend, using my new LS-38. Very sturdy set of legs. The head was OK, not sure I'd recommend it on a 20x zoom shot, but overall it was fine.

Are the problems on a 20x zoom shot related to:

1. smoothness of a pan

2. stiction on the start of a pan or tilt

3. bounce, backlash, or rebound on the end of a pan or tilt

My Canon A1 is vexing to me. I tried it on a larger Miller DS-20 head (not ideal) and notice problem #3 popping up repeatedly. The only way to solve this was to wait 3 seconds before removing my hand from the pan bar while the head settled into equilibrium. Or, on a pan, you can place your left hand on the lower section of the head, where the bubble level is. This damps rebound in the horizontal plane, for some reason. Aaargh ... finding a head that works smoothly with the Canon A1 is frustrating. I was about to order a Libec LS-38M kit, but I'm having my doubts.

I know on my LS-22, the only really significant instability I can find is from when I unlock the tilt lock during the shot, and also the fact that I'm not great in terms of panning and tilting. I know that it's no Sachtler, but it works plenty well, at least for me.

I showed the head and sticks to my dad, and the one big thing that he came up with was quite simply that that head was a lot closer to his old Sachtler that he used to use than he would have guessed. Sure, it's not quite 100% like the Sachtler is, but it's perfect for smaller cameras and smaller budgets. (at least from my experience)

Again, your experience may vary here, and it may or not be great for your camera, but I know that I consistently get really, really good video at 12x+.

Honestly though, in this price-range, the nearest Sactlers are....not exactly worth their price. Personally, I wouldn't get a sachtler smaller than the 12 for quality concerns. The smaller Vintens are amazing, as are the milelrs (DS-25 and up). But the 5-9lb cameras have the predicament that everyone here has mentioned. They're small, relatively inexpensive, but quality supports are...lacking.

Having just discovered the Libec's, I'm pretty impressed to say the least. For the price, I have certainly not found better. Getting the 38 is a big step above the 22, and a HUGE leap above any of the manfrottos. While it offers basically no adjustment, the motion is extremely good and covers most of what you could want to do on a tripod.

Bottom line: If you're looking into the 38, you'll be very happy. It's not a DS-25, a vision 3,8, or 11, or a DV-12sb.... but if you go in knowing that, you should have no problems. Just like DV or HDV, if you play within the limitations, you can achieve incredible results.

Very good way of summing up what I was trying to say Jason. Thanks.

The Libecs really are pretty incredible for the price, eh? Certainly much better than the Manfrottos I've tried. Sure, it's no Vinten Vision 10 (what I borrowed for use on my shoots before I got the Libec), but for the price, and for a 6 pound camera, it's perfect. And I'm sure the 38 is a big step up, but alas, the 22 works just fine, and is probably better for smaller cameras, just because of portability and weight.

I went on location with my new LS-37 (the 38's predecessor) and my Sony VX2100 at the weekend, to shoot some Santa steam trains. It's my first 'proper' tripod, and it was a baptism of fire - or rather ice, as the temperature never rose above freezing point all weekend!

Results? I'm very pleased. I saved some money by getting the LS-37 at a better price. The two-stage legs of the LS-38 would be more portable I'm sure. I'm not sure if I'd get any benefit from the sliding plate on the LS-38 head either. I'm not sure if the LS-38 is lighter than the LS-37 either. I was certainly able to sling the tripod over my shoulder and walk for the best part of a mile with no real pain.

Panning and tilting is very smooth in general, especially in use with my Bebob Zoe Lanc controller for start/stop/zoom etc. At full zoom it can get a bit shaky, though that may be more down to my inexperience and the fact that I couldn't stop shivering in the cold!

Panning at full zoom wasn't as smooth as I would have liked as well, I tried to track a little fishing boat out in the sea and I had a bit of difficulty. I think a lot of it is down to practice though, rather than shortcomings of the tripod.

I've come from a very low-end Velbon tripod, so I might just be too easily pleased!

I've been looking into the LS-38 and feel enough people are pretty happy with it, and I'll try it. I just ordered the head, ($350).
I'm going with the Miller Solo Carbon Fiber Sticks #1501 ($600). I've ready so many extremely positive posts about them, I couldn't resist. Supposedly great for run-and-gun, and nature shooting.
A factory rep from Libex said they'll mate just fine - both are 75mm ball and claw, but I'll feel a lot better when they arrive, and do indeed play nicely with each other. I'll post my 2 cents on the combo then.

Hi,

I am thinking to get either the LS-22 or LS-38. I use a DVX100A and a GS500. After reading the above posts, I got the impression that LS-38 is a new design which can pan and tilt better than the LS-22. Is that right?

The LS-38 is for 4-8kg load. What would happen if I mount my DVX100A (2.5 kg) or GS500 (0.7kg) on it? Would I need to apply a lot of force to tilt to overcome the "over" counterbalance?

LS-22 is cheaper than any Manfrotto 503 combo. However, I got the impression that the LS-22 head is way better than 503. Anyone tried both??

Thanks in advance!

I know that the LS-22 works perfectly for lightweight cameras, I tried my ZR60 on it, and it was really incredibly silky smooth. The only thing I'd be worried about on the 38 would be the counterbalance, but I suppose you could turn it off for the GS.

The decision here would be whether or not you're alright with this tripod being for light cameras or whether you want this to be your one and only tripod that you can use even if you change out to a heavier camera.

Yes, the Ls-22 is a far better head than the 501 or 503. The one thing you lose is the ability to mount larger cameras...but if you're putting a $30,000 20lb camera on a 503 head, you've probably budgeted things pretty poorly. The 22 has very nice and smooth motion, though the quick-release plate is pretty awkward. The Ls-38 is a different design internally (though similar-looking from the outside), and in addition to the added capacity it has a more refined feel. How much more? That's a personal choice. In terms of balancing, I wouldn't worry too much about the dvx on it. I find it has a pretty light effort. If you're super worried, you can always add a plate of steel between the qr plate and the camera. But I personally think it's fine as is.

I bought the 22 for the XH A1 and it's a perfect fit. Like all the cheaper tripods, it's not idiot-proof like the O'Connor or Gitzo, but it's perfectly OK once you get accustomed to using it. With an expensive tripod, you can pan and stop and remove your hand from the handle and everything stays right where it is. With the cheaper ones, you take the pressure off, and there's just a little bit of bounceback, ie., it will shift back to the left or right a tiny fraction. You learn to keep your hand in position and hold it steady, and life is good. It reminds me of an ancient old O'Conner C I used for a long time back in my 16mm days. It acted the same way.

The only thing I'd be worried about on the 38 would be the counterbalance, but I suppose you could turn it off for the GS.

Nope, can't turn it off or adjust it. I'm using it with an A1 and am very satisfied with it.

Really? I have a little switch on the back of my 22 which allows me to turn off the counterbalance or switch it to front- or back-heavy setups. The 38 doesn't?

Thanks guys for sharing your valuable info/experience.

I was originally thinking to get a Vinten Vision 3 + Miller Solo CF leg. Got my wife's approval already. However, after reading the discussions about the Libec here, may be I can get the LS-22 or LS-38 instead and save myself some money for other gear. I am constantly facing the question of whether to spend the extra bucks and get something decent and "future-proved" (I guess there is nothing such as future-proved these days). I guess that it is always a difficult decision to make.

Really? The 38 doesn't?

If it has one, they hid it really well and didn't mention it in the manual. I believe the lack of counterbalance adjustment was discussed in a magazine review. "The built in pre-tensioned spring appears to be built for cameras such as the Sony Z1 and Panasonic HVX200 with a few add-on accessories." This is taken from http://www.dvuser.co.uk/images/magazine/back-issues/issue-4.pdf Very informative review. It solidified my decision to purchase one.

Not sure if it helps, but I've got an H55 head- and really the only difference is a preset 2 stage damper adjustment on pan and tilt. The heavier setting I can't find a use for - too damped, so pretty well the same in feel to the one you guys are talking about. I use a 5100 JVC on it, and an old SP Betaand the counterbalance spring is a little too light, but quite usable. One thing I have noticed is that the paint finish is pretty resistant to knock and scratches - which is handy.
P

Based on the review at dvinfo, the Libec seems like a much better option than most Manfrotto/Bogen solutions in the $500-$700 range (with a 503 head), which makes it kind of... interesting that several sales people recommends a B/F solution, and fails to mention the Libec LS38. It would be interesting with more comments from people who have tried both solutions. The reviewer at dvinfo specifically mentions that he didn't like the 503.

Bogen dealers will naturally try to sell more bogen products. I have a friend who's a salesman for one of the largest dealers in the u.s., and he showed me their cost vs. their selling point. Needless to say, a salesman working on comission will do better for him/herself pitching the bogen gear. Libec also lacks the market confidence, so if someone's teetering on whether or not they really "need" a new tripod, (window shopping), it's a lot easier to sell them impulsively on a brand they've seen out and about and heard of.

how does the LS-38 compare to the Vinten pro 6?

I mention early in this thread that I'd report back on the compatibility of the Libec ls-38 and miller solo:

I just bought the Libec LS-38 head ($350US)
and the Miller Solo graphite legs ($470US).
They combo fits just like they were made for each other.
I think they're great in comparison to anything in this price range.
The head has a very nice build quality, and it's movement is comparable to a class of heads selling for 3-5x the price.
Solo sticks are just awesome for run-and-gun shooting, and suitable for most applications. They set up so easily, and the build quality is quickly evident after a short time using them. At less than $900, the combo is very attractive.

I just bought the Libec LS-38 head ($350US)
and the Miller Solo graphite legs ($470US).
They combo fits just like they were made for each other.
I think they're great in comparison to anything in this price range.
So you're not having the bounceback issues Bill Pryor mentioned above? ("With an expensive tripod, you can pan and stop and remove your hand from the handle and everything stays right where it is. With the cheaper ones, you take the pressure off, and there's just a little bit of bounceback, ie., it will shift back to the left or right a tiny fraction. ")

I have now tried the 503 head with a Canon XH A1 (which has 20X zoom), and the bounceback at the end of the pan is very visible.

Just received my LS-38 from B&H;

Now for the head: the pan on it seems to be excellent, with no stiction that I can detect, very smooth indeed. However, the tilt on mine seems to be something else, with a noticeable soft region before hitting the fluid action, unless I'm missing seeing some adjustment, but I don't think there's anything to adjust.

I concur on the panning action. It is smooth, and at the end of a pan, there is very little backlash in either direction. I did my tests at 20x on an alphanumeric chart. However, depending on how much downward pressure you put on the pan bar, I can feel some uneveness in the rotation surfaces, as though there were tiny grains of sand or metal lodged in the pseudo-fluid plates. It is hard to describe in words, but if you have one of these heads. rotate it a full 360 deg and see if you can sense the slight grit in opposing surfaces as they slide past each other.

As for the tilt, I'd rate it average. After you balance your camera (mine is an XH-A1) on the head, there is a tendency to return to level from a tilted forward or backward position. The mechanism is spring loaded, and as mentioned, there is no adjustment. In the soft region, the head will stay where you put it, but beyond that, be prepared to lock down, or keep holding on to the bar.

The soft kit bag is too small. Once the rubber feet are attached, you have to jiggle the legs to get the bag to zip up. This is annoying.

So overall, I'd say this is not a perfect head/tripod combo, but for under $700, it seems like a good buy. I can easily live with some of these flaws for the price, and spend my money on more important things.

Haven't experienced that "sand grit" feel, if I were you I'd probably get on the phone with libec, it sounds like they have good customer support and could talk you through simple fixes. Apparently, it is a true fluid head, so either something is just slightly off, or it's defective.

As for the balance - what you're experiencing is a balance spring which is too strong for your camera. The A1 falls more into the weight range of the LS-22, not the 38. All tripods with fixed or adjustable springs have certain limits to what they can balance. Even then, the balance may be limited to +- 60 or +- 30 degrees. Outside those limitations, you'll feel either slippage or creep back to horizontal. Usually the true balance range is fairly small, within about 4-5lbs of the rated load. In your case, the A1 is just too light, and the C.G. of the camera is too low for the tripod to balance it with the fixed spring. You could adjust either or both, and you'll find that the behavior of the tripod is entirely different and more to your liking. Try accessorizing your camera, rods, matteboxes, even wireless mic receivers taped to the carry handle. If these aren't things you own, try this:

Go to a hardware store and buy a bar of steel 3-4" wide, about 1/4" thick. They should be able to cut it for you, but use this formula: The density of steel is .290 Lb/Cu. Inch. With 1/4" steel 4" wide by 17.25" long, you'll get about 5lbs. If it seems too long and out of control, double the thickness and half the length. Drill 2 holes in the center, one 1/4" all the way through, and the other using a tap-kit only a little ways in. Tap that hole to 1/4"-20. Counter-sink the first hold, and get a 1/4" screw that sticks through just enough to catch your cam. Now you have a universal weight plate for your camera. This is actually a GREAT thing to have. Most bottom-end tripod heads are meant to balance 11lbs minimum, so with this plate you should be able to use just about any pro-level head. The ls-38 is a fantastic deal, and it performs beautifully when you load it enough. If you're worried about losing the quick-release feature, buy a cheap bogen QR adapter. It'll snap on and off exactly at your pre-balanced point every time.

Obviously, this seems like a lot of work to make the balance feature usable, but its actually what you'd have to go through with any pro-level head and that camera - even the sachtler dv6-sb can't truly balance it (and that head is crap anyways). Your camera is just too light! Throw a 5lb weight plate in your kit, and you'll notice a world of difference in the way all heads behave.

Has anyone tried this tripod with the XL-H1 (front-heavy). I am looking for a new tripod and this one is definately an option. Libec says it is for camcorders in the 4 - 8 kg category. The Canon XL-H1 weighs around 4 kg. So if I add microphones, a light and an anton bauer (for example) I would say I will end up somehwere around 6 or 7 which should work. The Libec LS-60 is rated 8 - 13. This means that the XL-H1 might be a little bit too light. Or it could mean that I do not have to adjust the plate forward/backward... I am not sure.

I've heard the XL will work fine with that tripod, but it's better if you have the Canon quick release plate so you can get the camera adjusted fore and aft for good balance.

Thanks Bill. I already own a Canon quick-release plate so that is a plus. I am just not sure whether the LS-38 or the LS-55 is the right tripod for me. Money is not the problem but it makes no sense to pay more if there is no real advantage. The LS-55 has the same qualities as the LS-38 (judging the specifications) and adds a two-step drag mode and 2 KG more maximum weight. But the range is 4 - 10 so I suppose 7 is the sweet spot where it is 6 for the LS-38. So how useful is the two-step drag mode? I think that is the only major difference.

For what it's worth, I've been following this thread since I picked up a Libec T57 tripod with an H35 head on it through ebay. I wanted something a little lighter than my Bogen 316 (Which is a great, but HEAVY head on the 3193 sticks)

I got a deal on the Libec (300) so I can say I'm overall pleased. It IS smaller/lighter than the Bogen. VERY fluid, no 'bounceback'. I do miss the 'adjustability' of a friction nob. The releases are either on, or off... no 'adjusting' on this head. So the 55 with variability would be nice. And definitely having the Canon quick release plate would come in handy. I don't need it on the Bogen, but on the libec, there is very little adjustment in the plate. I CAN balance the camera with just the 3x and Fu-2000 on it. But when I add the FU 1000 and the 16x manual (My usual setup) I definitely need to add the BP 910 with dual battery packs. It balances fine like this however, so it's not a big issue.

Not a bad combo, but I think they may have discontinued the H35 head?

Anyone else heard/have info about Libec moving their distribution site to CA and availability suffering? Wanting to get an LS-38M (2A), but sounds like it may be some time before they are available again. Bummer.