I'm looking to buy a low price 24P-capable HD cam next month for independant feature production and the V1U looked great, until I read a little further and found out that no NLE currently supports editing its 24P.

I'm coming into this fairly new, but unless I'm mistaken, if I buy this cam, I won't be able to use it to create a 24P movie unless and until FCP, PP etc supports it, which could easily take a year or more, based on past actions. I understand that Sony's own editing equipment supports it, but that's not much use for the vast majority of us who use 3rd party NLE's.

From my (basically limited) understanding, you can use it with Connect HD or some other Cineform product to get 24p. I'm sure Vegas 7 will update it soon enough (if it hasn't already).

It has been said on this forum several times that Edius Pro 4 supports the V1 24p.

Ron Evans

Greg, where have you read that no current NLE supports the V1's 24P? Sony's marketing of the V1 specifies that most current NLEs will allow editing this form of 24P.

Greg, where have you read that no current NLE supports the V1's 24P? Sony's marketing of the V1 specifies that most current NLEs will allow editing this form of 24P.

Tom, as I mentioned I'm learning this stuff as I go along, but I've seen a couple of online articles such as the one below and posts in forums that suggest that no NLE currently supports 3:2 pulldown in HD resolution for HDV
http://www.creativemac.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=67595

I really hope to be corrected on this since I intended to use the cam to capture 24P without needing to wait for FCP to support it.

I'm looking to buy a low price 24P-capable HD cam next month for independant feature production and the V1U looked great, until I read a little further and found out that no NLE currently supports editing its 24P.

I'm coming into this fairly new, but unless I'm mistaken, if I buy this cam, I won't be able to use it to create a 24P movie unless and until FCP, PP etc supports it, which could easily take a year or more, based on past actions. I understand that Sony's own editing equipment supports it, but that's not much use for the vast majority of us who use 3rd party NLE's.

The word "currently" is the key as you can't "currently" buy the V1 so the fact that one can't "currently" edit 24p doesn't justify the absurd TOPIC name you posted. You can't "currently" buy a PS 3 in the USA -- doesn't meant you won't be able to in a few days.

The camera isn't even out yet; I've never seen an NLE manufacturer release updates for a camera BEFORE the camera ships, nor really talk about it. This camera isn't useless to shoot anything, it's EXTREMELY useful to shoot anything with.

Feature film? Extra added color, gamma, etc., features, along with 24p, gives the filmmaker one of the biggest advantages, IMHO. If you are a great DP, learn how killer the camera is (along with a great script, cast, crew, etc., of course), you'll be happy with the footage.

What about other situations that may not call for 24p?

How about wedding videography? I haven't shot a wedding (or at least helped shoot) in over 3 years, but I've seen what these guys and gals can do with the Z1. And I know what my little wedding video looked like, that was shot by a close friend on his FX1...killer! V1 can add more to how the camera handles blacks and whites, something I had issues with in DV when it comes to the black tuxes and white gowns. Esp. outside in South Florida--things are practically glowing. I know the V1, like the Z1/FX1, will handle that fine, if not better.

Event/corporate, etc.? After using the Z1 and FX1 regularly in film production, I was able to just shoot everyday stuff with those units, stuff that is common in event videography--you're just going with the flow. And I was VERY impressed with how the cameras held up to bright light and dark shadows when you can have your light kit handy. I'm positive we'll be able to make great use of the additional picture controls and more.

News? Why not? I worked for over 7 years in news, shooting on M2, BetaSP, DVCPro 25/50 and even my old Canon XL1. All those cameras did a fine job, but I was impressed to see a videographer shoot some freelance news stuff in HDV (Z1), then down-convert to DV/4:3 from the camera to an SD digital deck. It looked killer. I bet the V1 will only help him and others out.

I guess I felt like I needed to answer the statement that the "V1u is functionally useless for 24P movie production," when in fact it is. I don't know what anyone will offer when the V1 ships, but I do know Sony knocked 'em out of the park with their HDV offerings, and I am confident they'll continue to do so. And the NLEs supported the cameras pretty quickly, which was great.

As I always say, take the V1u out for a test drive, and see how it can help you. I know you'll enjoy the camera.

Sorry for the ramble, but I felt very passionate to answer.

heath

OK, thanks for the replies - I should have written "functionally unusable" rather than "useless", but I stick with my assertion that if you're buying it to shoot 24P footage you might have to wait a while before the more popular NLE's such as FCP and PP actually support it. That said, I will be pre-ordering it since it seems to be in a class of its own.

Greg,

It may have taken around 2 years to get solid HDV editing (whether native or though a DI), but I'd be surprised if it takes a while to see an update that will cater to the V1u's speciality, 24p/30p. Keep in mind, the camera isn't even shippng yet, so no one knows what's in store.

heath

1. Camera is not shipping yet.
2. There are currently 3 options in place for 24p editing now.
3. NLE developers have been given footage/data well in advance. Many have promised updates due "around the time the camera ships."
4. Virtually all apps support the cam in 60i/30p mode now.
5. Why worry about what apps don't support a non-shipping camcorder?

XDCAM HD and DVCProHD aren't fully supported, if at all supported in many applications. Does that make those cameras "functionally limited or dead?"
Of course not.
It takes time for developers to release updates, and there is no rush to release updates for a non-shipping product. Relax. Take a deep breath. It might take *your* favorite NLE some time to catch up, but catch up they will, and very likely, darn soon after the cam is shipping.

Heath:

Your post on the V1U convinced me to buy it over the Z1U. I will be shooting mostly sit down interviews and most of my clients only have SD TVs so 24p isn't that important to me.

Later I want to be able to offer them the stuff in HD when they (and most of America) get around to buying their new HD TV sets.

Sounds like the V1U is perfect for this, correct?

Sal,

Awesome and you bet it's great! I highly recommend shooting in HDV, capturing and editing in HDV, then create a new timeline and do your output to DV/SD (that's how I usually do it in Final Cut Pro when going to tape) and deliver in SD. You still have an HDV version.

Then, a year or so from now, when you hear your clients have a Blu Ray or HD DVD, then it's time to burn them a new, HD version!

heath

Heath:

Your post on the V1U convinced me to buy it over the Z1U. I will be shooting mostly sit down interviews and most of my clients only have SD TVs so 24p isn't that important to me.

Sal, that seems like an odd statement... 24p isn't important to you, so you buy the V1U? Kinda seems backwards...

It's not an odd statement at all. 24P is just one of many useful features on this camera. I can imagine a lot of people buying this camcorder who have no intention of ever shooting 24P with it. In fact, even if the V1 had no 24P capability at all, it would still sell like crazy.

Chris is right. I know a guy who loves the DVX100a he bought 2 years ago that NEVER shoots 24p. He even makes a couple of extra bucks renting his cam out to local indie filmmakers. And those are the only people shooting 24p. He loves the way he can manipulate the image; I'll bet he buys a V1 over a Z1 because of the image controls.

heath

I can imagine a lot of people buying this camcorder who have no intention of ever shooting 24P with it.
Yes, I'm getting one, but the 24P is not something I have a need for. I'm getting it for the increased zoom and for the Super Slow Motion, or whatever it's called, that will be great for some sports stuff I'll be doing.

I already have a Z1U, so now I will also be able to do multi-camera shoots with both cameras set the same.

So V1 24p cannot be edited in Premiere Pro? Or is it possible to edit with PP and CineForm?

Sorry, I'm confused, and I do think the question is relevant even on a non-shipping product, simply because we can pre-order now. I'm keen to get a V1 . . . but I want to be able to edit my footage.

If you can edit 60i, I'm 99% sure you can edit 24p. It has a pulldown that makes it go to 60i for ease of editing, much like the DVX100 series.

heath

... I do think the question is relevant even on a non-shipping product, simply because we can pre-order now. I'm keen to get a V1 . . . but I want to be able to edit my footage.

Thanks, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks it's relevant since I want to pre-order one of these but it's no use to me unless FCP supports it. I got jumped on in this forum because I dared to suggest that the cam won't be much use to a large section of people who need it for 24P production unless popular NLE's supports it.

I don't think you understand...you CAN edit the footage in pretty much ALL non-linear edit systems. It's 24p/30p with a pulldown and placed into a 60i stream, like the DVX100 series of cameras, and others, too.

When the camera ships, I won't be surprised that the NLEs will have pulldown removal for this camera.

heath

24p may be an emerging standard, and this camera should support it from everthing I've read.

Have you ever noticed that a movie on DVD looks better than °any* video on DVD? It appears that way to me.

I'm supposing that DVD production from 24p will likely change that.

24p may be an emerging standard, and this camera should support it from everthing I've read.

Have you ever noticed that a movie on DVD looks better than °any* video on DVD? It appears that way to me.

I'm supposing that DVD production from 24p will likely change that.

*most* commercial DVDs are content-acquired from a film source or other exceptionally high resolution source; this is the reason that DVDs look better, not because of 24p.

24p is a great feature, for independent film users and a few other uses. But 24p as a "general" feature is responsible for a lot of very bad video, simply because a lot of users don't understand how film is to be shot.

For example, I have exceptionally limited experience with film, having shot 16mm as part of a film class in a previous eon. I have a lot of 24p experience, but not enough that I'd consider myself able and ready to produce a film using 35mm film cams at very high costs of production. I've screwed up more 24p than I've ever delivered as part of my learning curve. Now I'm adequate for our clients, but there are much better shooters than I am in this framerate. Fortunately, not many of our clients ask for 24p, even the few car commercials we do.

Take a guy that shoots mostly film and/or 24p like Charles Papert and other full-time cam ops, and you can hand them a DVX and they'll make it look like 35mm not because of the framerate, but because they simply have cam-op chops that are part and parcel of their daily bread. In other words, 24p isn't responsible for the great DVD look, it's the cam-op, lighting, resolution, camera angles, experience etc that make the difference. Making video appear like film is an art, not a science or technology. It's more than color correction/processing tools like Celluloid, Magic Bullet, etc. These tools go a long way to getting there, but it's so much more about the technique of filmmaking rather than the tools used.

Having 24p available to the masses hasn't improved the art of filmmaking over the past 4 years, and having it for HDV won't change it in the next 4 years. It just means more people are shooting 24p, but not better video or film-like video.

Re-reading this, I realize I've said it very badly; but I am too lazy to re-explain. Hopefully you'll cut me some slack; it was a long flight home today. :-)

Welcome back, Spot! I have to agree with you 100%, and as you know, you and I always argue that 24p is just one part of a film look. There's so much that goes into it.

heath

Indeed, the technical capability of the camera is only one part of the process of delivering a moving image to your audience that pleases them.

My hope is that 24p out of the V1 will be useful for movie production. If it is delivered with interlacing at the wrong place in the capture/processing, it would be pretty much the same set of obstacles to film printing as 60i has today. Its as much fun as a bag of cats. If you like that sort of thing, or are a cat wrangler, best wishes. I'm not. :-)

I'm betting the 24p looks like real images. you know, just like a 60i camera does when its filming a still image in a studio. Looks great, right out of the can.

The V1 footage, when properly lit and shot and in 24p looks like film to me.

heath

The V1 has the option of low cost HDMI output: 1440x1080, 4:2:2. For an production that is using real equipment--lights, grip, etc.--the cost of a higher quality capture is lower than any alternative. That should be an independent film advantage.