With the just the camera had at 12,500, what other accesoris will be needed- i.e. lense etc? will there be anything bundled with the 12,500 package?

Another question

Since the camera utilises a cineform workflow, what is the compatibility like with Mac progams such FCP?

Quicktime support is coming early Q1 (Jan/Feb).

That will give you direct QT support. You will be able to record straight to QT in the camera and then directly ingest those QT's into Final Cut Pro.

As far as packaging on the Mini-Head, I'm not sure. I do know that the PL-mount is another $1K on top of the $12.5K for the mini head.

We have a great set of c-mount primes from Fujinon (rated to 5Mpix, so perfect for this camera) that can be had for around $350 each . . . so for the price of the just the PL-mount, if you're on a budget, you can get a whole series of prime-lenses for the same $1K price.

We've been using these Fujinon's for quite some time, and they're really sharp and clear. Great, low-cost glass.

Is it possible to have those Fujinons geared for a follow focus mechanism?

Sure, Dan Dianconau has alread done this!

Quicktime support is coming early Q1 (Jan/Feb).

Not trying to be bad. But at NAB they said it would be here by now.

Sure, Dan Dianconau has alread done this! ).

How much to retool the fuji lens?

Would it possible to for someone to give me a full list of lenses that will be available for it?

Also I if anyone can be bothered, could i please have a rundown on the process which will have to be undertaken inorder to plug into a mac and edit?

How will it scale in terms of image quality against a cam like the JVC HD250

One last question; is there any battery iand charger included in the 12,500 pack?

Thank You Very Much, As I am seriously interesting in buying this camera.

Also what is exactly included in the Mini package - so i can find out what else exactly i will need to purchase

And is there any idea on the exact release date on the head - early/mid/late december?

anyone? i am currently tossing up between this and HD250 so i am very very curious.

anyone? i am currently tossing up between this and HD250 so i am very very curious.

Hi Tyson,

Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

Well, if it's any indication, the "Spoon" guys over at Atomic VFX dumped their JVC's (they had a couple cameras and had spent months in pre-production and R&D to get the max out of those systems using the uncompressed analog outputs going into external recorders using uncompressed and CineForm) the minute they got their hands on our cameras and shot a simple test scene.

In their words . . . "no comparison" . . .

So, while I have not personally done any comparisons between the two cameras, they seemed to be impressed enought of fore-go all the work they had done with the JVC's and risk their entire movie on what was at that point a prototype camera and a system that hadn't been previously proven in production.

With what they put at risk, I think that speaks a lot for the comparison between our camera and the JVC's.

As far as lenses go, basically you can use any 16mm PL-mount lens, or B-mount, etc. lens adapted to PL-mount. That's a lot of lenses, to many to list here. If you have no money for used 16mm lenses (even the fairly cheap c-mount variety for the bolex cameras), then Fujinon makes some great c-mount lenses too.

Is this the JVC HD100?

Im still wondering price wise, how much will i need to get a decent set up, i would be classed as an 'indie' filmmaker - im looking for a lense in the 1000-3000 range - plus compatible tripod and shotgun mic - this is for the head only, so what also in terms of storage?

Jason, one of the major reasons they dumped the jvc was because of the P+S Teknik, which between too much grain and light loss, made blow up to film untenable.
Their article in showreel magazine explains it better. Not that the SI2k doesn't make better video to start with.
The SI has went from very affordable to very close to the RED in price when fully configured with ProspectHD and PL mount. Not a good place to be IMHO.

So the 200/250 with the 16mm PL mount optical adapter is a very good option.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.

so RED is a more viable option - money wise?

I mean how much are they lookin for - in terms of the RED camera in comparison to the SI-2K - a full decked out 4k kit?

No Tyson, make a decision based on what your needs are, not hype. Do research.

I am shooting films for Tropfest and festival's similar to it, two films that will be entering production in January, what do you recommend?

I need a camera that is versatile in both high and low light situations while sustaining a high resolution, We are editing on a couple of quad core Macpro's.

Ive done research and cannot still make a decision, as i am torn between the sacrifice of resolution in the rather small price difference in price of the HD200 and SI, so i am looking here to make a decision.

Hi Tyson,

If you are only going to be shooting a couple of shorts I would look at just hiring gear and not buying. The only problem is that you can't hire the SI-2k (& Red) at the moment (you can't even buy them).
The price of buying a JVC will rent you fair amount of shooting time with a HDCAM or Varicam camera and maybe even a good lighting cameraman.

We WILL be shipping MINIs in December. You could even use you MacPro (in bootcamp) to do the recording. Rent some good glass and accessories.

We WILL be shipping MINIs in December. You could even use you MacPro (in bootcamp) to do the recording. Rent some good glass and accessories.

Ari, will that be with the existing chip or the new one?

Ari, will that be with the existing chip or the new one?

New one :-) !

Cool!!!
What the heck are you doing up this late? :)

Same thing as you :-) !

I'm checking Jahshaka and finding it a total waste of time. Great idea, bad implentation.

Ari, will that be with the existing chip or the new one?

You mean the Core 2 Duo, 2.33ghz's yeh?
I hope so, i just bought one - i was hoping that would be ok to edit the SI's footage.

I think Joe was asking about the imager.

The core 2 duo 2.33GHz wiis ideal. Be sure to get a good GPU (ex. Geforce 7600 or better). Will you be using this machine for recording from a Mini too?

Im thinking of the macbook pro? 3-4gb of RAM with Radeon 1600, how does that sound? RED is not on my radar as a production camera anymore by the way - too far off.

I don't know if you can get them down in OZ, but Gateway has a nice tablet pc that supports up to the t7400 Core 2 Duo and up to 4 gigs of 667mhz ram and several HD options. The screen is 14" diagonal at 1280x768 resolution. Has Cardbus, firewire and usb, gigabit ethernet, wireless and bluetooth.

If you go to their site, check out the CX210X tablet pc. You can customize it and have their system send you a quote (no salesperson involved). Only negative I found was no expresscard slot. I think the Mac Book Pros have those.


I priced one with t7400, 2gigs , ati 1400x, 5400 rpm 160gig drive...yadayada for just under 2100 usd. Thats running Windows XP tablet pc edition.

yeh that would be awsome, although i am runnin final cut, my pc is running a kentsfield quad core, so i should be fine in that regard!

Guys, I hate to be a wet blanket on the enthusiasm but we have no way of testing on a lot of these alternate platforms. We test our software on Dell M90s, Precision 390s and our SI-2K motherboard. Those are the officially supported platforms. It *should* work on Core 2 duos at 2.33GHz, 2GB of RAM *but* it is not guaranteed.
-Steve

Guys, I hate to be a wet blanket on the enthusiasm but we have no way of testing on a lot of these alternate platforms. We test our software on Dell M90s, Precision 390s and our SI-2K motherboard. Those are the officially supported platforms. It *should* work on Core 2 duos at 2.33GHz, 2GB of RAM *but* it is not guaranteed.
-Steve

Bummer, since I have no intention of buying a Dell. Prefer custom built system from a local supplier.

A custom quad core machine with high end graphics should do.

We are adding a powerful set of real-time look visualization tools which require advanced pixel shaders and texture processing which exceed the capability of current embedded graphics that are often found in the small form factor tablets.

Steve...thanks for the reality check.

So the Macbook would not be enough - even with decked out RAM and memory card?

The specs are

Core 2 Duo - 2.33ghz
Radeion 1600XT - 256mb DDR3 Graphics
3gb RAM - to a possible 4gb if neccesary

I only need this as the computer to do the edit - with Final Cut Pro, as I am experienced with the software, can you infer whether this system will be able to cut in terms of the edit as opposed to the features which Ari had just discussed
- I am not interested in buying a Macpro as i have just purchased a new PC for work, although this is a stupid question i was wondering if i could install the Apple OS on a custom built computer- is this possible or can you only use the OS on systems pre-configured by MAC?

I was referring to the tablet as a capture device.:-)!!!

A custom quad core machine with high end graphics should do.

We are adding a powerful set of real-time look visualization tools which require advanced pixel shaders and texture processing which exceed the capability of current embedded graphics that are often found in the small form factor tablets.

Steve...thanks for the reality check.

I know you don't like embedded graphics, neither do I. The Gateway tablet offers an ATI 1400xt with 64megs of ram as a low cost option. It seems to be one of the few tablets that supports 667mhz ram which is also a requirement for your capture software.
But I like the direction you guys are going, my post about the nvidia 680 sli mobo and it's support for the latest and greatest from both Nvidia and Intel would appear to be a great foundation for what you are coming out with. support for Quad core extreme, dual 8800gtx... even a third graphics card if your neurotic enough to need one... a life taker and a heart breaker.:-)!!

We are just saying not officially supported . . . it *should* work, but if you've built a couple PC's before, you would realize that even with all the same parts but just trading around the motherboard and RAM can make a big difference.

We can't control what every little notebook maker puts in their laptops, what chipsets they use, and what drivers they package with their systems. What we can do, and do you a favor as the end-user is say "This is a system we can guarantee works".

It may sound harsh to not give out a blanket statement and say "all this stuff will work", but that's the reality of the situation. We've been building systems, testing systems, purchasing systems, etc., and depending on the configuration, we see odd stuff with one laptop or computer that we don't see on another. One graphics card model works great and another doesn't.

We feel that it's our job to tell you what works and what doesn't so that you can have a satisfatory end-user experience. So what you're going to see from us right now is "certified systems".

Dell M90's have been worked on (Dell's been a gracious provider) and we're actively working on official certification for that laptop (we haven't released 1.0 software yet, so you can't officially certify a platform until you have a fixed software release).

MacBook Pro's are not certified and are not being actively certified.

Gateway tablet PC's are not certfied and are not being actively certified

The list goes on.

Does this mean "they won't work"? No. It does not mean that. In fact there are going to be a TON of systems that *should* work. It just means we haven't tested it. Since it is your money that you're spending, we're giving you the flexibility to say "I don't want a Dell, I'm gonna use my own". And that's fine. But you're spending your money to test that laptop for us. If it doesn't work, we don't have one here to re-duplicate your problems. If our Dell's not crashing like your laptop might, or doesn't have the drawing bug your laptop might, or some other odd problem and your laptop or non-certified computer does, we can't really help you-we can't debug what we can't re-duplicate.

We feel that for an on-set shoot, bugs are a complete no-no, much more so than a bug you might occasionally find in an editing program or something less time-sensitive. Bugs on shoots can kill shoots. And so as a result, we're providing certified systems so that you can go out in the field knowing that we have the same thing back in the office, and if you have a problem that's not due to part failures or deleting a critical file, we should have the same problem and can quickly fix it.

First, I completely agree with what Jason has said. Second, I really hope that people realize that for most users, the SI-2K, not the Mini is the right answer. For a real time system, you want absolute control of what is running. On the SI-2K, that would be the SiliconDVR software and nothing else. It should work on the set with a minimum of cables every time.

So why do you want to use a laptop? If you already have one is the answer, what else is it running (you wouldn't already have it if you weren't using it)? Is there anything automatic on it (windows update, virus checking, quicktime updater, firewall, or even worse IM)? Not appropriate for a real time system. It is up to you to keep it clean.

If you are going into the field and need to do some editing on the same system, OK, that is a pretty good reason. Especially if you are carrying it around with no access to other machines. Saving some money....*IF* you use the laptop for editing also....not great but buy the M90 and don't put your mail program or anything else on it.

The last issue is updates. We are telling you now that features will be added. That is a good thing, right up until your PC you built as a bargain stops working with the latest update. Our limit of the resources an update can use will be the benchmark systems.

Hopefully these last two posts explain not just the rules but the reasoning. We would rather you understood the underlying thinking so you know it isn't an arbitrary edict.

-Steve

Yes, as Steve noted, one thing to keep in mind is that our SI-2K system will have a very, very controlled WinXPe (embedded) system. This is like embedded Linux, and actually surprisingly more stable, as it only includes the WinXP kernel, and any drivers, controls we need to make the system run-that's it. Nothing else. Since it's a very controlled hardware/software platform, expect quite a bit of stability from that setup, and of the issues that might/do arise, they should be very repeatable and fixable.

The last issue is updates. We are telling you now that features will be added. That is a good thing, right up until your PC you built as a bargain stops working with the latest update. Our limit of the resources an update can use will be the benchmark systems.

I never said I build a 'bargain' system. In fact I have systems built with the highest quality parts. I don't skimp on a system important as that, and resent you implying otherwise. My current system has been running reliably for almost 4 years without a single glitch.

Joe,
You misunderstood my meaning or I did not make it clear. The preferred solution is to sell the SI-2K which does not need any external computer to be a camera - everything is self contained for recording. You do not need to go elsewhere to find a camera that we can fully support.

I'm not sure what your reason is to want to build a computer to record with the camera. If it isn't to save a few dollars between the fully integrated solution and the Mini, what is the advantage? I'm curious from the point of view of understanding the market. We thought that the Dells offered both a laptop and workstation solution, easy purchase anywhere along with support.

I'm not sure where the FUD is that you see. You are welcome to run our software on any machine. We can't tell you what problems you will face because we can't test your machine. Are you willing to be completely accepting when you buy a $12.5K camera from us and can't get it running on your machine because we are incompatible with the RAID system? Most people will blame us for incomplete testing and expect a solution. This would come at the expense of development and testing time. Multiply it by 10... or 100 or more people with custom systems and we are stopped in our tracks.

I think we run with less FUD that most companies. Sure if there is uncertainty, we tell you. I guess our uncertainty is less doubtful. Known uncertainty. Sorry, tired.
Steve

Have you tested on MAC, as i am sure a major load of your customer base would be find in the alternate operating system?

We have not yet tested the new Core 2 Duo Macbook with our latest rev of software. The specs seem right. We may have to look at having one of the these machines as an additional "certified machines" assuming the demand is there to drive it.

As I mentioned earlier, we are adding tremendous visualization capability. This now includes real-time 2K (2048 x 1152) CinefromRAW decoding, colorization, white balance, 3D-LUT look transformation and dual simultaneous output on local LCD and external DVI. These added capabilities are driving the need for more powerful machines. Today, I can say with certainty it is performing on the Dell M90 Notebook! We will try to get you more feedback on the Mac over the next few weeks.

My Macbook Pro has better specs than the M90, that is a positive at least, before testing is conclusive.

Steve, I'm agreeing with you in principle. Dell has a great ISV certification program and for a small a company that can give you and your customers a sense of legitimacy and keep support costs down at the same time. It's a smart move. I appreciate you folks being upfront about your requirements so there is no excuse down the road. Most companies wouldn't be that forthright.

I also think one should by the whole kit( body included) to insure stable and reliable performance. But there are situations where one would want to use the head only (which the folks making spoon showed quite well) and I would like to put together a system that actually exceeds what dell is offering. I'm referring to a desktop system btw.

I can't afford to buy lots of computers, so I want to build one that can perform various duties. I'm also thinking of the best system for running Premier and ProspectHD along with SI capture software and compositing and 3d modelling and animation software when needed.

We've been speculating for months about various configurations for this camera, thats part of it's appeal. Now, this late in the game, we're told thats not such a good idea. The benefits of a tablet are obvious to all, even if not certified. Basically we were having a lot of fun with the idea. The possibilities of different configurations is the only reason I didn't go and put a down payment on RED.

After all this, we haven't even talked about 64bit version of vista :0

Joe,

I am less concerned with desktop systems versus fixed function notebook/tablets, as you do have the option to easily upgrade parts, if required.

I am sure your system will be fully decked out if you also plan on doing your editing on the same machine!

Here is a good read on the new Intel Quad cores:

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35723

We will give you the guidelines for the systems we use. The rest is up to you :-) !

can I edit my imbedded .look file using a small m500 mobile phone? running pocket windows! can I sit back whilst my focus puller lines up shots and discuss grades tweaking on my wireless mobile phone and watching the changes!

Joe,

I am less concerned with desktop systems versus fixed function notebook/tablets, as you do have the option to easily upgrade parts, if required.

I am sure your system will be fully decked out if you also plan on doing your editing on the same machine!

Here is a good read on the new Intel Quad cores:

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35723

We will give you the guidelines for the systems we use. The rest is up to you :-) !

Okay, now check out this review of nvidia 680 sli based mobos. Good even if I stick with a core 2 dual system.

http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=4215

What does that say about the possibility of a Macbook Pro then?

BTW, just as a note, there's more than just speed involved in our certified systems . . . there's also parts compatibility and a consistency of platform between what we have and have tested, and what the end-user would use in the field.

This has nothing to-do with "cheap" or "expensive A-list" parts, and has everything to-do with a combination of motherboards, processors, chipsets, expansion cards, and drivers for those components that have been well tested and certified for integration at a full system level.

I can tell you that I've put together systems that "should" work and they haven't. Call it FUD or whatever you would like to call these gentle warnings, but there are simply too many variations out on the market to spend the time to support every possible system combination.

Furthermore the problem with Apple and the MacPro's is that there is no support for bootcamp. If something is not working correctly, there is no support from Apple like there would be from Dell. If something is incompatible with the drivers, etc., on the Mac systems, and you're running bootcamp, you're on your own as far as Apple is concerned. That means we become the end-of-the-line for computer system support, and we can't afford to take on that role of IT management should you need a replacement, driver fix, etc.

Ultimately we feel our job is to provide you with a system that you can purchase off-the-shelf and know it works. We are for open-standards though, and so we are allowing purchasers to use whatever computer they like, as long as it's within the minimum specs. But, please realize, we cannot guarantee the stability of your custom systems or pre-purchased systems that are not certified by us. Furthermore you cannot get full software support from us without a certified system. If for whatever reason your system turns out buggy with the software, or you're having difficulties, and we cannot reproduce those errors on our certified systems in-house, then we cannot help you. It will be up to you to re-purchase parts that do work, or get a certified system.

We do not feel this is unfair or overly harsh. Editing companies have been doing this for years, and that's in post where down-time can be bad, but no-where near as bad as the clock ticking on-set. How much more important is stability a requirement on the set when your entire day (or days) of shooting is at stake? Again, this might be termed FUD by some, but we simply can't hold ourselves responsible when non-certified systems are in-use and fail to perform to the high-standards you require as shooters.

Now even with an uncertified system, if the problem is with the camera head itself, you will naturally get full suport for the camera hardware. But we cannot support you at the complete system-level if you do not have a certified system.

Will you ever test the Macbook Pro, because after all the interest ive had in the purchase of this camera (there has been a hell of alot) but this in-compatibility with the Macbook Pro might deter me away from Silicon Imaging ultimately.

Tyson,
Cineform is working feverishly to complete both Mac OS support and FCP support for their software. I would think that if most people bought the SI-2K full recording camera, the real issue is whether Macs are supported in post. Since the Mini is removable from the SI-2K and can still be used with the DVR body as the recording device, real-time recording should become less of an issue. By buying the full SI-2K, you have the most compatible, stable, upgradable solution we offer and still have the flexibility of using a Mini as a POV camera, fully battery operated.

I will concede that there will be times that a laptop will be useful. Most recently, with the close ties we will have to Iridas Speedgrade OnSet, you will want to be able to move single frames to a laptop for creating .look files in OnSet and have a way of uploading them back to the camera. We are working on incorporating wireless ethernet into the camera for such an operation. This would be 802.11g so it could not support live external recording (answering that question before it is asked).

We will consider the Macbook Pro in the future, I think. There is certainly demand for it but keep in mind that it would be at the expense of more R&D - new camera designs and added features.

By the way, I think the main reasons that Atomic used the Minis connected to workstations over the SI-2K configuration (with the Mini remoted) were:
- They only had one DVR - a prototype
- The DVR had a noisy fan in it (again, prototype)
- They already owned two Wafians

Regards,
Steve

Thank you very much Steve,

So I see from the reading these posts - that running with Macpro and a Macbook Pro only, the best option for me would be to wait another year or two when the software is stable and there are no compatibility issues.

Thank you for all your help.