I have had the A1 for about four days. It is a phenomenal camera and I am learning as much as I can about it. My day shots are fantastic on mostly auto mode with a bit of exposure compensation. My low light shots really suck. I worked overnight last night. (I am an emergency medicine doc) I took some A1 video on a tripod of the helicopter on the pad and it is terribly and unacceptably noisy. The lighting is fair and is certainly MUCH MORE than the lighting of Kaku's city shot at night with the jumbotrons in the background. I must say that I had it in "A" mode and exp locked and tried a little more and a little less exposure with no help. Today I am looking at the NR custom functions and wonder if that is what was used to make the night footage look so good on Kaku's footage..... The gain is set to AGC on. I am willing to try any and all suggestions to get my night footage looking as good as Kaku's. If someone has a GREAT night settings 60i preset file and could upload it I would put it on a card and try it with my camera!

Thanks

Mark Miner

Try putting it in manual with 60i, 18 db gain, 1/30 or 1/60 shutter speed, and iris all the way open.

Bill

Try shooting with the iris all the way open, no ND engaged, 1/60 or 1/30 shutter. (1/30 will look a bit slurry)

24F actually has a little more sensitivity too, if you don't mind the look of the frame rate. If you don't actually need a really bright picture I wouldn't go above 6db for a relatively clean picture, and no more than 12 dB for somewhat acceptable noise levels.

Someone please... PLEASE, just put the camera in full manual, open the iris, set shutter to 1/30, turn off gain, go outside into lit street, film...

turn gainm up to 6... then 12... then 18...


Thats a really simple test... MANUAL not AUTO anything. Only real test... Any cam in auto at night blows.

Any cam in auto at night blows.

Amen to that!

The gain is set to AGC on.And that's the reason why you've had poor low light so far.

Someone please... PLEASE, just put the camera in full manual, open the iris, set shutter to 1/30, turn off gain, go outside into lit street, film...

turn gainm up to 6... then 12... then 18...


Thats a really simple test... MANUAL not AUTO anything. Only real test... Any cam in auto at night blows.


Yeah! Canon's Auto mode is only good for the SMPTE Bars...Auto anything is pretty lame to me. (UNless it's followed by Pilot...and EVEN THEN!!!)

Someone please... PLEASE, just put the camera in full manual, open the iris, set shutter to 1/30, turn off gain, go outside into lit street, film...

turn gain up to 6... then 12... then 18...

Thats a really simple test... MANUAL not AUTO anything. Only real test... Any cam in auto at night blows.

I will do exactly that tonight along with the FX.

It may very well be that having settings in manual mode makes a little difference, but you guys have to face the reality that this camera may not be any different than its SD predecessors in low light and quit stoning the messengers.

I have absolutely no agenda and have no allegiance to Sony or Canon.

deleted. Please see the thread on the main page

Again Daniel, no agenda... just don't like unsupported claims or improperly conducted tests... I am open to any harsh realities. Infact, I think the Lowlight disucssions here might stem from the fact most people are unwilling to face the harsh reality that film making needs lighting!

Thanks,

the constructive posts that helped me get the most out of my A1 were greatly appreciated. The manual settings that were suggested helped tremendously. The A1 set manually to 1/30sec, 0db gain (6db looked good too), and aperature wide open, looked great... I am going to reshoot the helicopter tonite at work and see the difference.


Mark Miner

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=78947

"Someone please... PLEASE, just put the camera in full manual, open the iris, set shutter to 1/30, turn off gain, go outside into lit street, film...

turn gainm up to 6... then 12... then 18...


Thats a really simple test... MANUAL not AUTO anything. Only real test... Any cam in auto at night blows."

Interesting thing I learned just now trying to do this test on my FX1. I don't have an A1, dang it anyway, or I would have done it too :)

Conditions were full moonlight, outdoors at about 8:15 p.m., in a typical housing tract in California. Street lighting.

I set the camera up by turning the Auto exposure to manual. Also before going outside, 1) I roll the shutter speed to 30, open up the iris all the way, by turning the knob until the screen indicates F 1.2. I then go into the menu to set the gain selections a 6, 12, and 18. I slide the three position gain switch to L for low (which would be 6 db). I close the menu. I have the zoom set at maximum wide. Before I walk out, I confirm that I do not have gain button on yet. LCD is not showing gain selected.

I step out side, start rolling tape, and pan the camera around, and I am surprised that I get a pretty bright, but grainy picture.

I then push the gain activation button, and the screen goes darker. Hmmm.. I push the gain selector to medium, which will give me the 12 db, and it gets a little brigher. I then select 18, and it returns to the brightness I had when I thought I was shooting with no gain.

Can anyone explain that to me ?

Put your camera in FULL manual
nothing on auto

Open iris all the way, set 1/30 shutter speed, put gain to 6db.. film, look at it on a monitor... will be pleased.

Again Daniel, no agenda... just don't like unsupported claims or improperly conducted tests...

I did the tests tonight exactly as you describe as "proper" and there was little difference in the result.

Canon - brighter but washed out and grainy. (even at 12db)
Sony - slighter darker but color held up much better with less grain.

Taking into consideration the difference in the way both handle gain differently, the Sony and Canon look pretty close when the Sony was at 18db and the Canon was at 12db.

But the Canon, even at 12db, still had more grain and less saturation than the Sony at 18db.

Is your AGC in the off popsition ? The factory default (out of the box) is on. at least mine was. For what it's worth my new A1 looks better in low light than my Broadcast D600 betacam. For 4K the A1 rocks.

This is a pic of a SD Sony PD170 at night with various settings.

Is your AGC in the off popsition ? The factory default (out of the box) is on. at least mine was. For what it's worth my new A1 looks better in low light than my Broadcast D600 betacam. For 4K the A1 rocks.

I am not sure if that was directed at me or not but I have had the AGC off since day one.

What do you mean by better? Brighter? My A1 is definitely brighter than my FX1 bu tI wouldn't say its better.

Obviously its much easier to apply a little color correction to boost the brightness a bit but there is nothing to get rid of noise in post effectively.

No offence but the PD170 looks horrendous, especially the way its dealing with the actual lights.

Pic from Canon A1
http://www.scarlet-films.com/A1/speed.jpg

Would like to see how Sony cams match up at that size, and let me assure you th 1080 image is just as clean, just used preview on my mac to cap this from FCP.

Noel, that looks fantastic,. settings?

Daniel, not meaning to critisize you. I appreciate that people who already have the cam (Mine hasnt shipped yet) are trying to post stuff. I am thankful...

I just think people might be expecting a BIT much from the lowlight... I mean, what is a camera but a device designed to capture light? Even a $500,000 35mm camera with 500 ISO film will NOT be able to shoot in the dead of night... I have never really seen a camera where lower light doesn't equal higher grain... kinda just the real world...

I would. however, try to boost the in camera saturation, turn on noise reduction (medium maybe), turn on any grain reducers you can, check the knee and shoulder, maybe crush the blacks and expand trhe whites, try the cinema settings... Canons are notrorous for their customization...

If anyone has comparison pictures of the A1 and other cameras, with settings specified and either the brightness or amount of grain visually matched, please post them. We're short on complete factual information and long on posturing; DVinfo is all about the former, not the latter. Thanks.

Noel, that looks fantastic,. settings?



All my settings can be found in this thread click click

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=76945

From my tests, the XHA1 is about a stop to two stops faster than a Sony Z1U.

The XHA1 comes out of the box with sharpness set pretty high and that gives the impression of lots of noise at high gain.

Turn down the sharpness, turn on black stretch, give some noise reduction, and set the gain to 18db and you can shoot in much darker places than a Z1U and get perfectly useable footage. (Be moderate with the noise reduction though -- on high, you'll get weird ghosting on motion.)

The noise that it does have is much like film grain and is not like the clumping noise of the Z1.

Chuck

I step out side, start rolling tape, and pan the camera around, and I am surprised that I get a pretty bright, but grainy picture.

I then push the gain activation button, and the screen goes darker. Hmmm.. I push the gain selector to medium, which will give me the 12 db, and it gets a little brigher. I then select 18, and it returns to the brightness I had when I thought I was shooting with no gain.

Can anyone explain that to me ?

Chris: it sounds to me as if you were initially shooting with the AGC on (probably with the camera setting the value to 18dB), and when you pushed the gain button, then it went into manual, and you had the preset at 6 dB, so that's why it got darker.

The gain on the FX1 is automatic unless the gain button is pushed, then it goes into manual, if I'm not mistaken.

No offence but the PD170 looks horrendous, especially the way its dealing with the actual lights.

Pic from Canon A1
http://www.scarlet-films.com/A1/speed.jpg

Would like to see how Sony cams match up at that size, and let me assure you th 1080 image is just as clean, just used preview on my mac to cap this from FCP.

Man! That picture is nice...real nice...
Is that the PAL version of the A1? ( I know there's some Resolution differences in PAL-Land)

No offence but the PD170 looks horrendous, especially the way its dealing with the actual lights.

Pic from Canon A1
http://www.scarlet-films.com/A1/speed.jpg

Would like to see how Sony cams match up at that size, and let me assure you th 1080 image is just as clean, just used preview on my mac to cap this from FCP.With respect, shooting at a very slow 1/3rd sec which is what i believe you used for the cars-from-bridge shot means you're not going to have to use much (any?) gain!! So really in my book the comparison to another cam when one is shooting at 1/30th & 1/60th and the other is shooting at 1/3rd sec is completely invalid.

The PD170 shots were shot at either 1/30th or 1/60th. Would be good to see a cars-from-bridge screenshot shooting at 1/30th or 1/60th.

daniel, try stepping up the coring a bit, stretch the blacks, and set NR1 to "LOW". anything higher than "LOW" seems to introduce these trippy afterimages. NR2 seems to work better in some cases -- no afterimages -- but details in the picture begin to soften/disappear. with these tweaks, you should be able to get a decent image with barely perceptible noise at +6 to +12 gain. regarding saturation, the a1 has so many image control tools that you should still be able to dial in a few looks that you really like.

The gain on the FX1 is automatic unless the gain button is pushed, then it goes into manual, if I'm not mistaken.

I didn't realize that. Seems like that is the case, though. So only way to shut off automatic gain, even though you are in manual settings for iris and shutter speed, is to have the low setting on the manual gain at zero. I'm at my office, and no camera here, but I assume that can be done.

Man! That picture is nice...real nice...
Is that the PAL version of the A1? ( I know there's some Resolution differences in PAL-Land)

In HD, there is no difference of resolution in PAL or NTSC cameras, and I do believe that he is using an NTSC camera.

on FX1 to be in full manual you have to set the auto/manual/hold swith in the middle position (manual) and then press all four buttons: iris, shutter, gain, and AW. Only that will guarantee you that the FX1 won't do anything on its own accord.

As far as my limited use of both cameras- I'll have to agree the FX-1 is better in low light video retaining a smooth video albeit darker as where the A1 video becomes noisy and grainy......I've tried 24F and 30F (on the Canon) and the Sony is definitely better at 0-3-6db of gain- at higher gain the FX shows it's advantge even more.

As much as I like this new A1- the FX-1 seems better at equal settings to that of the A1. At room light and higher levels- they produce good video but the FX1 is noticeably smoother and noise-free as the light drops off. There's a switch on the Canon to turn off the AGC circuit and this easily reveals the FX-1's superior low-light shooting abilities (when comparing db levels)

If anyone shoots allot of low-light video- look at the FX-1/Z1-U (bars, clubs, concerts etc) the XH-A1 gives the better lens range and possibilities but only in decent light and up.
I prefer the A1 as it suits my needs and is a general better fit for me- the Sony is large and long and can't trigger a Firestore FS-4HD remotely whereas the Canon does.....the Canon is a keeper!

In HD, there is no difference of resolution in PAL or NTSC cameras, and I do believe that he is using an NTSC camera.

That would be true Scharkey.

Looks like I am going to have to get out and do some more lowlight stuff. With due respect - Why would I be shooting in a small street with crappy lighting at night again?

Noel Evans, very funny. I just stepped out my door, in the cold, in my robe, and started shooting. I didn't think too much about it except, maybe an example and comparision would be interesting.

Noel Evans, very funny. I just stepped out my door, in the cold, in my robe, and started shooting. I didn't think too much about it, except, I thought, maybe an example and comparision would be interesting.I thought it was an excellent sample and well done and i thank you for doing it and posting it Richard.

You are welcome. I was hoping someone would post something similiar for comparision. The city clips with cars passing by are too bright for comparision IMO.

It is dark where I live and we complain about it all the time. It is so dark that I had my car stolen because the thieves feel comfortable playing in the shadows.

Daniel, not meaning to critisize you. I appreciate that people who already have the cam (Mine hasnt shipped yet) are trying to post stuff. I am thankful...

I just think people might be expecting a BIT much from the lowlight... I mean, what is a camera but a device designed to capture light? Even a $500,000 35mm camera with 500 ISO film will NOT be able to shoot in the dead of night... I have never really seen a camera where lower light doesn't equal higher grain... kinda just the real world...

I would. however, try to boost the in camera saturation, turn on noise reduction (medium maybe), turn on any grain reducers you can, check the knee and shoulder, maybe crush the blacks and expand trhe whites, try the cinema settings... Canons are notrorous for their customization...

No worries Matthew. Not taking it as criticism.

I am not expecting miracles in lowlight but I am expecting it to be at least as good as my FX or else it is not worth switching over for me.

I have been experimenting with the different settings that some have posted and it has definitely improved the picture overall in terms of saturation etc but not the lowlight performance as much.

As far as my limited use of both cameras- I'll have to agree the FX-1 is better in low light video retaining a smooth video albeit darker as where the A1 video becomes noisy and grainy......I've tried 24F and 30F (on the Canon) and the Sony is definitely better at 0-3-6db of gain- at higher gain the FX shows it's advantge even more.

As much as I like this new A1- the FX-1 seems better at equal settings to that of the A1. At room light and higher levels- they produce good video but the FX1 is noticeably smoother and noise-free as the light drops off. There's a switch on the Canon to turn off the AGC circuit and this easily reveals the FX-1's superior low-light shooting abilities (when comparing db levels)

If anyone shoots allot of low-light video- look at the FX-1/Z1-U (bars, clubs, concerts etc) the XH-A1 gives the better lens range and possibilities but only in decent light and up.
I prefer the A1 as it suits my needs and is a general better fit for me- the Sony is large and long and can't trigger a Firestore FS-4HD remotely whereas the Canon does.....the Canon is a keeper!

Steve, have you tried to import any 24f or 30f footage into FCP?

I am having trouble with it.

I am using 5.1.2 and import it with the 1080/24 easy set-up and it is really buggy and I am getting bad tearing of the video.

Pic from Canon A1
http://www.scarlet-films.com/A1/speed.jpg




Noel! HELP! - I can't download your JPG? How BIG (mbs) is it?

TIA - g

My webserver is currently offline, Im waiting for my host to get in touch so I can give me a dose of why is this the fourth time in four weeks, get your *$#& together.

With reference to the low light, the pd170 only shoots 60i so I will do some shots at that level. 0 gain, +6 gain and +12 gain.

Should be able to throw something up later.

I have one serious issue overall here when comparing apples with Bananas. When we talk about low light performance there is more to it than just lux rating. How about other functions available within the camera itself to handle dark areas?

Steve, have you tried to import any 24f or 30f footage into FCP?

I am having trouble with it.

I am using 5.1.2 and import it with the 1080/24 easy set-up and it is really buggy and I am getting bad tearing of the video.

Daniel I am using FCP 5.1.2 and using the easy setup as stated. I am not having any issues at all.

As far as my limited use of both cameras- I'll have to agree the FX-1 is better in low light video retaining a smooth video albeit darker as where the A1 video becomes noisy and grainy......I've tried 24F and 30F (on the Canon) and the Sony is definitely better at 0-3-6db of gain- at higher gain the FX shows it's advantge even more.

As much as I like this new A1- the FX-1 seems better at equal settings to that of the A1. At room light and higher levels- they produce good video but the FX1 is noticeably smoother and noise-free as the light drops off. There's a switch on the Canon to turn off the AGC circuit and this easily reveals the FX-1's superior low-light shooting abilities (when comparing db levels)

If anyone shoots allot of low-light video- look at the FX-1/Z1-U (bars, clubs, concerts etc) the XH-A1 gives the better lens range and possibilities but only in decent light and up.
I prefer the A1 as it suits my needs and is a general better fit for me- the Sony is large and long and can't trigger a Firestore FS-4HD remotely whereas the Canon does.....the Canon is a keeper!

Steve, if you try to match the picture on the cameras, in room light, for instance, to make brightness of both equal (even if the gain value isn't the same), does the A1 still reveal more noise/grain? Have you followed the advice from some people round here, concerning black stretch and noise reduction?
Thanks for your time... Looking forward to more footage from this camera!

I'll try the settings people are recommending and perhaps post a vid cap.....my observations so far indicate the Sony FX-1 produces smoother video at lower light levels than the Canon- but I'll try to even this out by tweaking the A1 to compete.

~~The Sony can also be tweaked to further improve noise (detail coring etc) so this can go on forever ~~

I believe the sensors on the Canon are 1/4" and the Sony 1/3" meaning all things being equal (which they're not) normally light sensativity is better with larger sensors meaning the Sony "should" produce better video. You really can't measure these 2 cams directly as they're made by 2 seperate companies so a direct comparo isn't technically valid.

I'm happier with the Canon for reasons stated earlier......I'll be happiest when these HD cams record directly to internal HD's with NLE friendly file format choices and when they approach the "best" size for me which is the size of the JVC's HD10U/1: which I found to be perfect!

Let the games begin~

In HD, there is no difference of resolution in PAL or NTSC cameras, and I do believe that he is using an NTSC camera.

Wow...never knew that. i guess thats better being that i can screen a HD film here in Atlanta...as well in Japan without format change.
This stuff is getting so easy now...

I believe the sensors on the Canon are 1/4" and the Sony 1/3"
Maybe you'd better check the specs. again, Steve. IIRC, Sony FX1/Z1 and Canon XL-H1/XH-A1/XH-G1 all use 3 x 1/3" CCDs. (I've seen comments elsewhere that Canon buy their CCDs from Sony, so maybe the chips in these cameras are actually the same??) Are you perhaps thinking of the old XM2/GL2 which uses 3 x 1/4" CCDs? This is an oft-mentioned difference between the XM2 and Sony's VX2100/PD170...

I believe the sensors on the Canon are 1/4" and the Sony 1/3" meaning all things being equal (which they're not) normally light sensativity is better with larger sensors meaning the Sony "should" produce better video. You really can't measure these 2 cams directly as they're made by 2 seperate companies so a direct comparo isn't technically valid.
~

I think you have these switched around the canon has the bigger sensors

I think you have these switched around the canon has the bigger sensors

Holly-- you are probably thinking about the new V1U from Sony, which has the 1/4" CMOS sensors.... The Z1 and FX1 have 1/3"

So I just went out and picked up an XHA1. I also own a HVX-200 and a PD-170. I'm going to do a low light comparison tonight and will posted it by tomorrow morning. I'm hopping to use this camera to start shooting HD weddings! I'm crossing my fingers.

I did a little research and they both have 1/3" CCD sensors- in fact all 3 Canon HDV cams have this same sensor! (The HV10 uses a different CMOS sensor)

Joe- I am extremly interested in hearing what you find- the HVX200 is an awesome camera and I'd like to see what you find.

Wow...never knew that. i guess thats better being that i can screen a HD film here in Atlanta...as well in Japan without format change.
This stuff is getting so easy now...
Well, yes and no. You can screen SD or HD in Atlanta and Japan no problem, because Japan is NTSC and so is the US system.

But if you try to shoot something in HD and screen it in Atlanta and also in London, you'll run into a problem. European/Oceanic/Asian HD and US/Japan/etc HD are the same resolution and color space, but they're still incompatible because they run at different frame rates.