Help, can't find a card to work for external grading monitor?

Okay guys, please note I'm in England, UK which means PAL.

Have latest Mac Pro system with latest FCP suite.

Footage shot on JVC GY-HD111E in 720p/25p mode. FCP supports this and I've imported footage. It's really important that people replying to this post with advise totally understand that we are talking 720p/25p here and Not 720p/50 or 24 or 30 or anything else, but 720p/25p.

I can't figure out how I can feed the FCP timeline to my external SD 15-inch JVC monitor for grading. I'm working with a native HDV 720p/25p timeline in FCP, footage was imported via FireWire. Final footage will be exported via FireWire to a native HDV 720p/25p deck. So HDV all the way.

I bought a Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme card, but it does not output 720p/25p to external monitor; they don't support it and won't be either.

Can anyone advise me how I can get a feed out of Mac Pro FCP timeline to my external SD monitor for colour grading purposes?

I'm working in native HDV 720p/25p FCP timeline so whatever the solution it will have to be able to down-convert this signal to Standard Def as it is a Standard Def monitor.

I did post this message on the Final Cut Pro section, but all the answers that came back were simply recommending cards that don't support 720p/25p, so I don't know why they even bothered recommending them. One guy even recommended a Matrox MXO, but again, if he checked their web site he would have seen that the MXP does NOT support 720p/25p.

Sorry to sound narky on this, but I have 10 hours of footage for a programme I've spent 6 months shooting and their appears to be no way I can use an external CRT grade A monitor for colour grading and I'm buggered if I'll do colour grading on a 23" Apple Cimema display as they are simply no good for this purpose.

Please note I don't want suggestions like using HD-Connect box or a DVCPROHD timeline etc etc, I'm native HDV 720p/25p from beginning to end.

I'm going mad here so I would really appreciate any help that could lead to a solution.

Thank you in advance.

I use the Apple DVI to Video adapter for monitoring 720p25 on a regular TV set. The TV works as second display on the mac, being that you can calibrate it just like your primary display (gamma,colour,etc...).

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=M9267G/A

I take it you need two seperate DVI outputs from your Mac Pro to do this right, one for your Apple cinema display and the other for this cable you mention going to a CRT monitor or TV?

Is this how your system is set up?

When it is set up does the external TV or yours fill the screen and scale the HDV image down to SD 720x576 or is it simply a Final Cut Pro window that you drag around on your TV screen?

Cheers

I can't figure out how I can feed the FCP timeline to my external SD 15-inch JVC monitor for grading. I'm working with a native HDV 720p/25p timeline in FCP, footage was imported via FireWire. Final footage will be exported via FireWire to a native HDV 720p/25p deck. So HDV all the way.

I bought a Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme card, but it does not output 720p/25p to external monitor; they don't support it and won't be either.

Can anyone advise me how I can get a feed out of Mac Pro FCP timeline to my external SD monitor for colour grading purposes?

Nigel,

Decklink cards perform automatic downconversion of anything to either PAL or NTSC, regardless of the source dimensions or frame rate.

Whether the decklink can perform HDV native 720P25 to PAL downconversion in real time while playing is the only question. I've never tested it, and I'm using a Decklink SP at the moment on a NTSC system so I can't test it.

For colour grading you should at least be able to look at one frame at a time and see real-time updates of colour correction adjustments.

In FCP, just select Blackmagic PAL 8-bit as your video output, and then turn on "All Frames" in External Video.

In the Blackmagic Decklink control panel (in System Preferences) you can select if your downconverted output will be anamorphic or letterboxed, and you may want to turn on "Enable Downconversion on Analog Outs" if you have connected you monitor to the analog out. Also set your output to the appropriate setting for either YRB, SDI or just Y, depending on how you have connected your monitor.

I take it you need two seperate DVI outputs from your Mac Pro to do this right, one for your Apple cinema display and the other for this cable you mention going to a CRT monitor or TV?

Is this how your system is set up?

When it is set up does the external TV or yours fill the screen and scale the HDV image down to SD 720x576 or is it simply a Final Cut Pro window that you drag around on your TV screen?

Cheers

You need 2 DVI outputs, but your mac pro already comes with them...and that's how my system's set.
In Final Cut, on video playback select: Digital Cinema Desktop Preview - Full Screen.
The resolution of the output picture depends on whatever is set on the display's resolution, on the sytem preferences...just set it to 720x576.

Hi Tim

I did all that yesterday and it does not downconvert in real time, not even close. All I ever get is a still frame of whatever the playhead is parked on in Final Cut. Yes "All Frames" are on, but it makes no difference. The best I can get is a still frame, if I then play in the timeline the still frame remains as Final Cut plays though the timeline. Even when FCP finishes playing or I hit the space bar to pause it, the original still frame is still there. The only way I can change the frame is to click in a different place in the timeline then the frame changes to that one. So you can see this is unworkable.

Sergio your sullution looks like it could be okay. I have a JVC 15" CRT production monitor. With this adaptor I'll have to use S-Video or Composite to go into that, but hell, at £12.99 for the adaptor it is worth a stab.

Yesterday I was looking at a Matrox MXO box which cost about £700 and it too conects up to the Apple DVI out, but you need software for this to output a broadcast signal and again, no 720p/25p in there.

Or does the Matrox MXO do a far better job?

I have no idea about the Matrox, but for me it's been working just fine... Of course maybe with the Matrox you'll get better results but I think it's worth trying.
Good luck!

I would shy away from any device that utilizes the graphics card for DVI output. There are all kinds of issues this could introduce, most notably incorrect gamma.

If you are colour grading for broadcast, use broadcast equipment. Decklink and Kona both qualify as broadcast spec ready.

Nigel, if you are getting a still frame, but not realtime playback then the issue is that Decklink simply doesn't support real-time decoding of 720P25 HDV codec. The Blackmagic team seem to add new features with every driver update, so this might be made available in the future, whether tech support says so or not.

Have you tried copying and pasting the clips in your 720P25 sequence into a PAL sequence? By doing this you are allowing FCP to handle the downconversion instead of the decklink.
Most likely rendering will be required, but on your Mac Pro I'm sure this would be a breeze.

Tim, Decklink and Kona don't support 720p/25p, nobody does. I'm more than familiar with these companies.

I hear what you are saying about dropping my HDV timeline footage into an SD sequence, but I would have to keep flicking from one timeline in SD to my HDV timeline each time. Then if I colour correct in the SD timeline, what happens when I go back to my HDV timeline, how do I colour correct there, do I simply copy the exact perimeters from colour wheel filters etc from one timeline to the other?

All the workarounds I've come up with are just too troublesome. It would be easier for me to just to out and spend 3 months re-shooting everything on XDCAM HD or some other more globally acceptable format.

For now I'll try Servio's suggestion. If the gamma is a tad out I'm not fussed, it is not for broadcast, it is for final DVD release. Besides, if the gamma is a tad out, I'll do a test to DVD and check it on monitor via DVD player to see the results then at least I can compensate a little if there are any gamma discrepancies.

Nigel,

Just one last thing...have you downloaded and installed the latest driver released last night? v5.7.2
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/support/software/

This version fully supports the Mac Pro, and may improve your downconvert monitoring situation. I'm installing it on my system now.

Tim I doubt there is any 720p/25p support for output to monitor in there as it was only yesterday Blackmagic told me they had no intention of ever getting their engineers onto this one.

Let me know what if I'm wrong though.

Hi

Great thread chaps very helpful indeed! I am looking at the same issue.

What I was hoping to do was use a DVI splitter (a cable with one dvi connection one end and two dvi Connections the other - or in a box)

Then using a dvi to component or composite converter (all quite cheap) and that going to a monitor.

Only thing I don't understand in the context of this discussion is how 720p can be displayed on an SD TV or monitor. Does the apple converter to svideo actually knock the signal down to SD or something?

Or have I lost the plot and I actually would need an HD monitor?

Another ideo Nigel is to use firewire into your camera (If you have the 101) and then component out in SD. I think that would work?

Trevor

Trevor, the computer to 101 camcorder, then component to monitor does not work. This is a HDV problem, it does not send a signal down the Firewire pipe to camera/monitor in this manner, if it was that easy I'd have done it ;)

The DVD to Video adaptor that Apple make (they make a PAL and NTSC version, so get right one) should automatically down-convert to SD signal on SD monitor. The specs on Apple site (for PAL one) are 720x576 out of the S-Video or Composite on this adaptor.

I'm buying one today and should have it Tuesday, I'll post back here with results.

I was also speaking to a Final Cut guy at Apple store who said it works fine, only the signal out of DVI is not a Broadcast RGB signal so the gamma might be out a little. This is not a problem though as you simply calibrate your monitor to colour bars coming out of Final Cut to compensate. This will only need to be done once, then you are flying.

Hi Nigel

Sorry to state the obvious, but to some of us the obvious is not so obvious!

Trevor

I agree, GY-HD111 is a great camera for the money. I never though I'd run into this post issue though with colour grading monitors and no card manufacturers supporting 720p/25p.

Yep

HDV has proved to be difficult, but then most new things are for a while atleast I suppose.

Don't know if your going down the TV or the monitor route but I found some very reasonably priced SD monitors at HPreston media:

www.videokit.co.uk/cgi-bin/store1/commerce.cgi?product=MONITORS!JVC&pid=13.htm#

I don't know much about monitors be glad to know if you think its any good.

Trevor

Yes, that is a decent SD monitor and is not too dissimilar to the JVC one I have at the moment.

Hello

I have he himself problem exactly, work in Europe, and since Apple removed the update for 720p/25 I cannot monitorizar my video in a JVC of 17 ", I sent a mail to blackmagic and this is what they answered to me:

"Hi Fernando, Thanks for the email. Since Apple has implemented support for 720p25, we will also look into supporting it. However, I don't have a date to provide when this is going to happen"

Let us hope that they make the update as soon as possible, for my also is already fundamental to be able to correct the material with monitor TRC. greetings.

I use the Apple DVI to Video adapter for monitoring 720p25 on a regular TV set. The TV works as second display on the mac, being that you can calibrate it just like your primary display (gamma,colour,etc...).

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=M9267G/A

Sergio, I bought one of these and tried it, but can't get the settings to work. Nothing on external monitor and in FCP if I chose Cine main display, the Apple screen goes black and there is nothing on external monitor?

What exactly are your settings across the system?

Hello Nigel,

First of all, after connecting the adapter, go to the ''Displays'' panel on the system preferences, and press ''Detect Displays''. Your screen should flash for a second and then you background picture should appear on the TV.

Now check the first 2 pictures I attached, which show how I have it configured on the system preferences.

On Final Cut... See the 3rd picture...
First, click ''refresh A/V devices
Second, in Video Playback, select the same as me
Third, on External Video, select ''All frames''

Basically that's it... let me know how you're doing.

Good luck,
Sergio

When I click ''Detect Displays'' nothing happens?

Well...

Make sure that DVI port you're using the adapter with, is working correctly - try switching you primary display on to that port, and the video monitor to the other one.

Only having the adapter plugged in should be enough to make the computer detect another display.

If I switch my display to other DVI it works just fine. Still can't have both at same time though. If I plug adaptor in whilst computer is on, screen goes off briefly, then comes back on, but has not found adaptor?

have you clicked ''gather windows'' ?

I assume you mean "Dedect Displays" in system prefs?, if so yes, when I do that, there is a brief pause, but then nothing, same as before.

Could it be a faulty adaptor?

I can't see anything in system prefs that says Gather Windows?

Just below the button ''detect displays'', there's the one that says ''gather windows'' (as you can see on my fisrt screenshot from yesterday)...
By pressing that button, the preference windows from both displays, show up on you primari display.

I don't have a Gather Windows option anywhere there; weired?

However, I do have a BlackMagic HD Extreme card fitted, but even when I remove it there is still no Gather Windows option anywhere to be seen.

I don't know what else to say... perhaps the adapter is faulty!

I don't have a Gather Windows option anywhere there; weired?

However, I do have a BlackMagic HD Extreme card fitted, but even when I remove it there is still no Gather Windows option anywhere to be seen.

Hi Nigel
Don't know if this helps but I am editing native JVC HDV720p 25 in FCP on a native timeline. I have a Kona LH card fitted in my G5 which I am using to monitor via component out to my HD monitor. Although native HDV720p 25 monitoring isn't supported by the Kona card yet, DVC Pro HD 720p 25 is via the Kona card settings. I have had no problems so far and although I haven't used it to monitor for colour grading it looks pretty good to me.

David Cubbage

David, are you getting full moving images from this, or just a static freeze frame?

Hi Nigel
I am getting full moving images in real time. I originally had the Kona card fitted to keep my workflow HD before Apple came up with the codec for HDV720p 25 and thought that it would make the card redundent when they finally supported it. However although I am now capturing JVC HDV720p 25 natively through the firewire instead of component to the Kona, and editing it natively, it does enable me to view my work on an external HD monitor using the DVC Pro HD 720p 25. My timeline is still JVC HDV 720p 25; it's just that the Kona card converts it to DVC Pro HD720p 25 for monitoring purposes. I am using the JVC BR-HD50 tapedeck for capturing into the Mac.

regards
David Cubbage

Hmmm, Decklink HD Extreme card does not support this either. It would appear that Decklink are way behind Kona in the card codec and technology department :(

I'm a little bit confused as to what exactly you're thinking isn't supported by Blackmagic. I use my video monitor as a 3rd desktop monitor and Directly in FCP.

Final Cut Pro>Audio Video Settings>A/V Devices (Tab)

Change your "Playback Output" to the correct Blackmagic setting for whatever type of video you're edit timeline is set for. You should see full frame, realtime video then.

When you switch off to a different program it should automatically switch to an extra desktop screen. It should aslo show up in your System Preferences>Displays>Arangement Tab.

I'm a little bit confused as to what exactly you're thinking isn't supported by Blackmagic.

720p/25p is NOT supported by Blackmagic, Blackmagic even told me themselves that they have no intention of supporting it in the near future. I'm PAL UK remember. BM does support every equivelent in the USA and the rest of the world. They just chose to ignore England. Check it out for yourself, you will only see 720p/50, not 25p.

Trust me, I've been to the ends of the earth and in touch with everyone at BM, it is not a feature they support hence I can not grade with moving images, all I can get is a freeze frame by choosing 720x576 RGB PAL 8-bit.

Oh... I see. NTSCenticism rears it's ugly head again.

I've seen this firewire option mentioned on these boards -

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=389754&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation


I'd like to use a Sony 9" PVM as a second monitor (as a preview window for Final Cut), and if the Apple DVI to S-Video adaptor works (using Digital Cinema Desktop and editing HDV) then for $20 it looks like a pretty good option.

Tim, you mentioned the gamma issue, and I'm wondering a if a firewire connection into the ADS Pyro convertor would A) be able to handle the HDV to SD conversion in real time (or is that more a function of the computer?) B) give you accurate color on the 9"? and C) work with HDV at all?

I don't own any of this yet (including the Mac) so I'm trying to figure out all the equipment on paper before buying and experimenting. Thanks!

Greetings Nigel,

I have been looking through many of your articles and found them outstanding! Thank you very much for all information that you provide at dvinfo.net and other sources at Internet for the people as me.
I am sure that you are very busy, however would be you please find a few minutes to give me advice with choosing camcorder for my work.
I started to do videography 15 years ago, hiking in Tean-Shan Mountains of Kazakhstan with my good friend Ian McWilliams from London, BBC. Currently I live in the USA, Oregon and recently was invited to the Central Oregon Community College (COCC) to start video and photo services from scratch (no budget, only desire to work). Currently I use my own equipment. I am owner of JVC GY-HD100 camcorder and from the time I bought it its gives me thousand problems. I need to sell it ASAP and to choice a new one; however I don’t have much experience with other camcorders and can’t afford to buy a wrong one.

My requirements on my work are the following:
I responsible for creating programs for our COCC cable channel (we have channel, however College still doesn’t use it at all).
1. Being expert in wild life and nature I started program “Travel with COCC” (travels, wild life, geology, meteorology, botany, etc.)
2. Art of Central Oregon (all concerts, painting exhibition, programs about talented people)
3. Promo videos about COCC and its different departments.
4. General video coverage for the College

I am interested with the following cameras: JVC GY-HD200, Canon XL-H1 and Sony PMW-EX1, however I don’t know what camera would be the most applicable for whose broad variety of videography which I am responsible for.

I would be very appreciate if you could give me you personal opinion what camera can be my best choice.

Thank you very much for your time!

Sincerely,

Eugen Helmbrecht

have you tried placing your 720o25 footage into a TL set to 720p50 ? that should work. especially in FCP6. all it does is double the frame out put. from there, set the card to downconvert and all should be good.