Hi, I'm interest to know how many of you ask your clients to review a proof DVD before you present them with the finished article?

Surely if a proof is presented it gives the clients free range to request changes here, changes there, less of Aunt Maud and more of cousin John etc. Could be a never-ending cycle that increases work time greatly?

Hey Dan,
I use to give clients a review disc but it only consisted of the ceremony and only the major parts of the reception. When I did this it delayed production by a whole week. I would go over their house and the whole family would watch. It did save me headaches at times. I would try a new idea or choose a song that wasn't on their list and they would then comment pretty much on those things. I film quinceaneras so the whole family would be there. It was good for that, and it helped polish up the video. Then I just realized I could finish these videos completely in 4 days. So I give them a choice in the contract, if you want to review your disc it will take 3 weeks for completition if you prefer to skip that step you can have your video in 2 weeks or less. Since doing that I have not had a request for reviews as they just want their product asap. So it's in the contract as a option but they prefer to have it earlier

Take Care
Monday

you'll have varying answers here but I stopped doing that ,HMMMM... come to think of it, I never did and for weddings ETC, I never will. First my service agreement states very clearly that I have complete control over editing. Thats one reason they hired me. I'm the profressional not them. Second, the time factor involved in letting them make edit decisions-they can't, so they let it drag on and on and I know drive space is cheap today but still it's not infinite. Thirdly, in my belief once you START you'll never finish the edit for them. "Oh BTW, can you just change 1 more little thing" and on and on and on.
Generalizations? Yes, but in my eyes very real challenges (among others) I have seen friends of mine get into by offering a "preview" copy. Hey if I misspell a name or some other stupid thing like that it's on me. Once again, my felling is they hired me for any number of reasons one of which is my editing ability because they saw my work, either a sample or a job I did for someone else and they know what they're getting before they signed up.

BUT HEY!!!! Thats just me ;-)

Don

I send a preview disk with a big timecode bar across the bottom of the video. If they see a problem or have a question, then all they have to do is refer to the timecode and I can go quickly to the exact scene to see what they're talking about and discuss it immediately. Also, the timecode makes for an unattractive dup if they have the means to make their own copies.

Haven't had a bridezilla yet nitpicking as Don describes above. Lucky, I guess. On occasion, there are a few questions or minor changes -- like that a scene (mostly at the reception) be shortened or deleted -- which are easy to do. More usual is being told the video good to go as is.

After I send off the preview disk, I wait a few days for my brain to clear, then look at the whole thing with a fresh pair of eyes, and almost always catch some additional tweeking needed on either the video or the audio tracks that probably no one in the whole world would notice or care about except me. So, as long as I'm doing that, making a few more fixes to make the B&G happy isn't a big deal, and -- so far -- hasn't added to my production time.

Included with the preview disk is a short set of instructions and the deadline for a response. No response by the deadline means approval. I send the disk via USPS with Delivery Confirmation. After it's delivered, I always follow up with a phone call to ask if there are any questions, and to restate the deadline.

This is what works for me.

you'll have varying answers here but I stopped doing that ,HMMMM... come to think of it, I never did and for weddings ETC, I never will. First my service agreement states very clearly that I have complete control over editing. Thats one reason they hired me. I'm the profressional not them. Second, the time factor involved in letting them make edit decisions-they can't, so they let it drag on and on and I know drive space is cheap today but still it's not infinite. Thirdly, in my belief once you START you'll never finish the edit for them. "Oh BTW, can you just change 1 more little thing" and on and on and on.
Generalizations? Yes, but in my eyes very real challenges (among others) I have seen friends of mine get into by offering a "preview" copy. Hey if I misspell a name or some other stupid thing like that it's on me. Once again, my felling is they hired me for any number of reasons one of which is my editing ability because they saw my work, either a sample or a job I did for someone else and they know what they're getting before they signed up.

BUT HEY!!!! Thats just me ;-)

Don


Im very similar. Only recently have i offered preliminaries but only to VERY picky clients.

I DO NOT give them a copy. not anymore.. hell i had one client who didnt even read the contract..
I used to offer 5 day viewing period for TECHNICAL fixes.. not asthetics..
unitl one client had the presentation for 7 weeks, copied it, sent it to all their relatives, then decided to write a 3 page essay on what they wanted changed.

Be precise with your contract, and you wont have this issue.

Now, for my high end clients, i take a laptop to their house, or i invite them here, I remotely connect to this finishing workstation and run a full admin system control from the laptop to this box. I see what THIS machine sees, and i can control it even if im in another city.. Ive even edited projects from other citys, teh only difference is my framerate is a little slower while i preview, but the workstation responds as if i was there.
It freaks my wife out to no end.. lol

They view the work online as its on the timeline. its a bit slow depnding on teh cnnection speed, its ugly (not full colour) but it works and it saves me a day or so on rendering and processing to DVD.

If things need changing, i insert a marker ON THE PROJECT and leave notes as to what needs changing.
When i get back to the office, my notes are there and i make changes before the final render

Im very similar. Only recently have i offered preliminaries but only to VERY picky clients.

I DO NOT give them a copy. not anymore.. hell i had one client who didnt even read the contract..
I used to offer 5 day viewing period for TECHNICAL fixes.. not asthetics..
unitl one client had the presentation for 7 weeks, copied it, sent it to all their relatives, then decided to write a 3 page essay on what they wanted changed.

Be precise with your contract, and you wont have this issue.

Now, for my high end clients, i take a laptop to their house, or i invite them here, I remotely connect to this finishing workstation and run a full admin system control from the laptop to this box. I see what THIS machine sees, and i can control it even if im in another city.. Ive even edited projects from other citys, teh only difference is my framerate is a little slower while i preview, but the workstation responds as if i was there.
It freaks my wife out to no end.. lol

They view the work online as its on the timeline. its a bit slow depnding on teh cnnection speed, its ugly (not full colour) but it works and it saves me a day or so on rendering and processing to DVD.

If things need changing, i insert a marker ON THE PROJECT and leave notes as to what needs changing.
When i get back to the office, my notes are there and i make changes before the final render

Peter, you had mentioned in some previous post somewhere that your preference was technical, and now I believe it! Perhaps, in time, I will be able to do what you describe as well.

My personal opinion is, that if you average $5000.00US per event, holding onto the project files and making changes is most appropriate. If, howver you are averaging less than $5000.00 per event...no. Think about the online purchases you make. You give. You receive. If somethng is not right, what do you do? In some cases, you encounter a wall. In others, you encounter a very friendly person who wants everything to be right with you. In all cases, it is they, not you, who have your money.

If your market warrents, provide the service or repair. If not, don't.

Hey Waldemar,
Technical, yes.. in the past i used to offer preliminaries to all my clients until the numbers grew to a point where i literally couldnt keep up.
So i changed it and offered "technical" checks on the work prior to finals, such as spelling (as i do many Slavic and Russian weddings spelling is ALWAYS an issue.. lol) overlay, multicam work etc etc

As i work with Vegas, rendering can become a nightmare with time so i render the parts in chunks. then i overlay those onto the actual edit and if anything needs changing, i just split and redo ONLY that part... at least this way i do not have to render and rerender.
When previewing, the response is also much faster, especially when doing it remotely.

Ive had many issues with preliminaries with clients changing tehir minds and overanalysing the work, to a point where major changes are requested and being pedantic as i am, i usually lose track of time while i spend copious amounts of time on ONE client, while the others wait...
I now only do prelims for clients who specifically request it (its an option in the contract) or for the clients whove paid enough moola to earn the right to request a chang.That doesnt sound teh best, but tis the best way i can explain it.. basically the way i see it, is taht theyve paid enough money to have this priviledge.

In the end however, its a contractual agreement that i use my discretion in all aspecs of the production. The clients know this

We always give an approval copy. But as Peter mentions, make sure it's clear in the contract that the intent is to catch glitches, spelling mistakes, etc. Not for artistic criticism and endless tweaking. Repeat this verbally when the approval copy is handed over.

Perhaps because we have been clear about this, approval copies have saved me time. We started it because of the hassle of redoing all final copies because of a spelling mistake, or because of some small change that would really make the client happy and would take no time at all. I mean, if the client says, "could you remove the shot of my neighbour's dog, I hate that dog." Are you really going to tell him to eat it because it says on the contract that you have artistic control? Good bye referral...

The timecode burn-in is a great idea, but I usually don't do it because I don't want to render the entire timeline.

Generally, about 50% of the videos are approved with no changes, another 40% have very minor changes that take a few minutes. Sometimes I may spend almost an hour making more extensive changes. So far, there have really been almost no 'bridezilla' types going crazy. Maybe one that I remember. Also, clients have been really good about giving a list of desired changes, but realizing they might not get them all. I mean, a bride and groom have no idea that removing a speech takes seconds, but changing a song under dance footage takes a long time if you want to retweak the footage to match the beat.

We also have the couples fill out a sheet with a list of songs that they want for each section of the day -- groom's house, bride's house, photo shoot, highlights, etc. Makes it hard for them to complain about the music later...

I couldn't agree with this more.....and even while my contract states NO creative changes, ONLY typos/technial errors......I still get clients who try to "push" the issue on making changes. I rarely bend on this....and it would only slow down the process for other clients and that is not right to delay their projects.

If you do however allow changes and re-edits....you are really setting yourself up for a client who you will not be able to make happy no matter what changes you make. Like Don stated.....they are NOT the pros...WE all are, and if they want to "back-seat" edit as I call it, then they should just buy iMovie and do it themsleves.

WHen clients ask about this....I tell them that is like asking a chef at a restuarant if they can cook the meal...or when they get their car fixed by a mechanic.....if they can watch and give input on whats being done.

A BIG NO NO IMHO.

I do want their creative ideas if any prior to shoot day and prior to post production....BUT NEVER after the fact.




you'll have varying answers here but I stopped doing that ,HMMMM... come to think of it, I never did and for weddings ETC, I never will. First my service agreement states very clearly that I have complete control over editing. Thats one reason they hired me. I'm the profressional not them. Second, the time factor involved in letting them make edit decisions-they can't, so they let it drag on and on and I know drive space is cheap today but still it's not infinite. Thirdly, in my belief once you START you'll never finish the edit for them. "Oh BTW, can you just change 1 more little thing" and on and on and on.
Generalizations? Yes, but in my eyes very real challenges (among others) I have seen friends of mine get into by offering a "preview" copy. Hey if I misspell a name or some other stupid thing like that it's on me. Once again, my felling is they hired me for any number of reasons one of which is my editing ability because they saw my work, either a sample or a job I did for someone else and they know what they're getting before they signed up.

BUT HEY!!!! Thats just me ;-)

Don

Hey Joe Allen, I can't really disagree if that system is working fine for you. If clients are putting up with having their changes refused, and they're still referring you, then who am I to say you are wrong...

I can only give an opinion from my market here in Montreal. Perhaps clients here are less open to the idea that changes are not allowed. All I know is that for us the process of allowing changes has worked out very well, takes minimal effort, and has been a positive addition to the workflow.

Cheers, and greetings from the frozen (well, not quite yet) north.

Hey Vito...a lot of the LA based wedding vid companies do...or not do the same as myself....and yes, I get lots of referrals.

I simply do not even entertain the thoughts of allowing clients to makes such changes as....creative ones.

Im sure markets are very different all over the world....and if I were somewhere else in the world....and making changes based on clients creative input, I would not produce wedding vids....but thats me.

Peter Jef often describes how his clients are in Australia.....and many times....very different than here in Southern California.

By the way....my clients do "put up" with me not making changes....the fact is, I explain this during 1st meeting....and contract states this....so, why would I bend over for someone and do it anyway....and go against what I offer.....that would be foolish.....and putting more work hours in for free.

My contrcat does state that I will make "creative" changes....but at an hourly rate since it is considered "additional" editing.

If you say the changes you make are "minimal"......then that is good for you, but...what will you do when your client wants some major re-edits and it will take a lot more than minimal effort.....based on what you stated.....this sounds like you would do it based on your clients wishes......that is where you can get shafted.


Works great for me...and I am 80% booked for next year already....and zero advertising, Im not concerened at what other videographers think about my ways of doing biz.....Im simply responding to the original posters thread regarding client reviews. Stay on topic.


Hey Joe Allen, I can't really disagree if that system is working fine for you. If clients are putting up with having their changes refused, and they're still referring you, then who am I to say you are wrong...

I can only give an opinion from my market here in Montreal. Perhaps clients here are less open to the idea that changes are not allowed. All I know is that for us the process of allowing changes has worked out very well, takes minimal effort, and has been a positive addition to the workflow.

Cheers, and greetings from the frozen (well, not quite yet) north.

By the way....my clients do "put up" with me not making changes....the fact is, I explain this during 1st meeting....and contract states this....so, why would I bend over for someone and do it anyway....and go against what I offer.....that would be foolish.....and putting more work hours in for free.



Sounds like you've got it well stated at the outset that no changes are allowed, so the client knows ahead of time that that's the way it is, and accepts it later. Didn't mean to hit a nerve with the "put up with" comment. We don't use the same clauses as you in the contract, so our clients do not "put up" with no changes. With your contract, it's not an issue.



My contrcat does state that I will make "creative" changes....but at an hourly rate since it is considered "additional" editing.



That brings up an interesting point. What's a "creative" change anyway. I made a joke about removing a shot of the neighbour's dog. Is that a creative change? For sure, a request like, "could you make more use of the crescendo in the song" or "I would like it to look more 'classic'" is a creative change. That kind of request we just refuse, and have never had a problem.

We offer the same hourly rate for extensive changes. Funny how no one has ever taken us up on it...hehehe



If you say the changes you make are "minimal"......you problably havent been doing this very long I will assume....because eventually, it will take a lot more than minimal effort......in due time.



Well, it's my fourth season, I've shot about 60 weddings, and edited about 200, so I don't consider myself a beginner. Giving approval copies and making small changes has worked very well for us. Much better than at the beginning when we were making people unhappy with our refusal to change anything. Though of course, we were always willing to fix spelling mistakes and technical glitches.

The point has been made by Peter and yourself (and me, actually) that so much depends on being clear in your contract and in your communication with the client.



Works great for me...and I am 80% booked for next year already....and zero advertising.

Then it sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing for your clientelle and your business. No need to change because of someone else's workflow in a completely different market, that's for sure.

It's just a survey anyway, brought on by Dan Burnap's original post. And looking back at it, I remember being nervous that we would be opening the door to grinding bridezillas who would hassle us for weeks with more and more changes. No one was more surprised than I that it never happened. I was actually against the idea of giving approval copies, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Thanks for the reply. Always a pleasure to learn something from another opinion.

I've said this before and I'll keep saying it until the day I retire or die whichever comes first. IF THE CLIENT KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE BUYING BEFORE THEY BUY IT THEN THEY HAVE NOTHING TO SAY AFTERWARDS!!!
Meaning if you take the time to explain things to them --they see a sample wedding, not just a 10 minute demo but an actual wedding so they can see the work you do and the style you do it in AND your Service Agreement states the policy and pricing of re-edit work, there should be no need to go back and re-edit anything. NOW having said that, have I been asked anyways. YES! I've even on rare occassion and rare generous mood done it BUT since it's my business I can make that decision. One was for the daughter of one of my biggest corporate clients at the time so of course it was well worth the time to do a small amount of re-edit work.
POINT...It's what YOUR comfortable with in YOUR market for YOUR pricing and YOUR time. All of these are variables but in 60 years on this good eath there is one thing I have learned with absolute certainty. Never say NEVER and Never say ALWAYS! Things change -roll with the flow. BTW like Joe, I too am about 80% booked for 07 and 80% of that is referrals. So I guess that policys and rules don't always matter to the client-the work, the workmanship, how you click with them and of course the evil money issue.
Nuff said.

Don

Hi Dan,

I've always offered a preview copy as well as let a balance due hang out there until that preview copy is approved. Its a selling point that shows confidence in your work, its a way to be sure that the client is satisfied and its helped me improve my work by showing me what is important to couples. The feedback is invaluable and lets me know how to cut similar sequences in the future so my programs are completely unobjectionable. I simply send a completed DVD without menus or chapters (auto-play) and tell the couple to let me know within two weeks if they'd like anything changed or adjusted. The footage stays on a drive until its approved and paid for. Rarely do I have any changes that take more than a hour to complete, and most of the time they are extremely simple adjustments requiring only a few minutes. There has never been a need to re-edit creative sections. As Waldemar does I also have a questionnaire that gets filled out after the wedding which tells me what I need to know about the length, style and music they prefer.


Hi, I'm interest to know how many of you ask your clients to review a proof DVD before you present them with the finished article?

Surely if a proof is presented it gives the clients free range to request changes here, changes there, less of Aunt Maud and more of cousin John etc. Could be a never-ending cycle that increases work time greatly?

Hey Joel,

Just tried to get to your website, but get an error. Is your provider down?

Glad to see I'm not the only crazy guy giving preview copies...

"If you do however allow changes and re-edits....you are really setting yourself up for a client who you will not be able to make happy no matter what changes you make. Like Don stated.....they are NOT the pros...WE all are, and if they want to "back-seat" edit as I call it, then they should just buy iMovie and do it themsleves."

When you put the onus on teh client to "decide" on their changes, then ur also setting urself up for major delays as they ummm and arrrr

It really isnt fair to hold off all ur work to appease one client, when that client knows well enough in advnace that there is no preliminary changes.

Some offer this as a marketable means of service, and for them it might work, but more than likely from what ive seen, the work and requests for changes never stops.
What your asking the client to do here is to overanalyse your product. In doing so, they will enjoy it for teh first few times, however by thte tme theyve gone through evry shot and "made it better" they wont enjoy thge work for WHAT IT SHOULD BE.
It SHOUDL BE an entertaining archive of their day which they can watch over and over again without getting sick of it and without cringing.
In this regard, contracts and viewing of previus works should give the client enough of an idea of what to expect. In signing said contract, they take the job on board PRIOR to the wedding to advise u of what they want.
With the "tastes" and specific "styles' already in place prior to shooting, the shooter can then adapt to THAT requirement and service the client within that regard. From that day forward, no changes. As the material has been acquired and teh footage was filmed within the clients choosing.
If they change their mind after seeing a friends video, then u might try to adapt, but that isnt fair on YOU.

Taking Joe's example.. its like asking a chef if u can cook.. in the case of mind changing after the shoot and before the edit, its like placing an order and then, once the ingredients are prepped, cut and in the process of cooking, u tell teh chef u wnat something else..
That stuff thats already been prepped goes out the window and wastes everyones time.
Alot of clients believe theyve paid top dollar, and of course, some have.. but even with that mindset in THEIR minds, it doesnt change the fact that you have other clients whove paid the same, if not moreso than they have. Many feel that by "paying this much" they should be given the right to decide, but if tehy read the contracts carefully, theyre given that right BEFORE the wedding. Once teh wedding is over, that control is then passed over to me.
Its teh fairest way to work IMO and i persoanlly havent had isues with it. The only issue i have with it is whn clients DONT READ the bloody thing..

Time is money. Dont ever forget that.
when u pump out 40gigs a year.. every second counts.. believe me..

with my prelims, as i mentioned, everything is contracted. and only certain clients have the privildge of requesting minimal changes, so long as the whole piece isnt affected.

ive had clients want this shot or that shot in or out, but in making THAT change, i must fist ensure that the integrity of teh piece and continuation isnt affecteed. Many times clients only see the shot for teh shot and cant see beyond the immediate... but when u explain to tehm WHY said shot was used, they usually turn.. if they refuse, i then explain to tehm that THAT particualr change will domino into other elements, becuase it DOES.

Your work should flow, and these people pay you becuase u know what youre doing.
If they dot have the confidence that you would do the job, they shouldnt have hired u in the first place.

Its a tough world, and the clients are tougher. Remember, that throughout tehir wedding preps, tehyve had total control. More than likely their photoalbums were created with images THEY chose. The only element they have NO control over, is the Video.. and this really gets to some people.. no trully.. that lack of control really drives some people batty, considering "everyone else lets me decide"
Well hun, your not paying them to do ur video, ur paying me.

Dont ever forget the emotional attachement to what we do.. ever.. its the only binding element which can either make u or break u.

Hi Vito,

The site was down today for a few hours. My whole host's website was down too (inmotionhosting.com). Its the first time I've been aware of the site being unavailable. It got me thinking about site monitoring, so I found a 'widget' I can keep on my desktop that pings my site every five minutes and lets me know its accessible. It also graphs the up-time.


Hey Joel,

Just tried to get to your website, but get an error. Is your provider down?

Glad to see I'm not the only crazy guy giving preview copies...

As a result of my years of experience doing video, I think a client review is very important in the general scheme of putting out the best show and saving time and costs of production. But I call it a premiere and not a review or proof showing. Basic reason is that with the complexity of editing we're had for the past few years, I want to find errors before doing the encoding and authoring of the DVD and burning of the copies. In the VHS stage, there were a few times when there was a glich in the edit or misspelled word that I missed.

For a while I used a VHS for this review. Now I play back the show on the computer, and if there is a misspelling or glich, I fix it on the spot and replay that part.

I too am about 80% booked for 07 Nuff said.


How do you calculate that?

My calculations are quite simple. I take the total number of dates I am willing to open to weddings, in my case for 2007 I decided to cut my schedule back, so I decided on 30 dates for weddings. NO 2 in a row, no back to back, if need be I'll do a Friday - Sunday but other than that... Anyway after decideing that 30 was the magic number for me for 2007 (this was decided about 6 months ago) I started looking at the booking I already had at the time. Since then the additional bookings I received add to a total of 80% of my open dates. OK well just below 80% as I have 21 out of 30 dates booked for 07.
BEFORE you ask how I decided that 30 was the number, first I'm 60 years old and I really feel like slowing down a bit ( I like playing golf not something I was able to do so much these last few years) second, I've been lugging vid cameras for 23 years, I'm tired ;-) thirdly and more seriously, I have gained some of my corporate cleints back and have a fair amount of corp work scheduled already for 07. More money, "easier" work and my preference to do over weddings. Don't get me wrong, I like doing weddings but there comes a time...
Anyway thats how I calculated I'm 80% booked for 2007. OK just abit lower than that but close enough.
Don

I never do that. My partner and I had a construction business in the 90s. What you are proposing is a bit like building a client a new house and when finished asking them if they would like you to tear parts of it down and rebuild on your dime.

Mike

whats reall starting to get to me though, is clients coming back after all is said and done with a change of mind..

I also hate the fact that the lower end clients who know full well they have no say in the matter wanting preliminaries, and when advised , nope sorry, they throw a tantrum..

its for this reason i show the event on the timeline.. as there is no processing involved with this...
One thing i have noticed however, is that some clients have no consideration for others and believe that i will spend as much time in the world to appease them.. in sacrifice of time to other clients also waiting... they dont see that what theyre doing is slowling down everyone elses.. but its these same people who cause the delays, are usually the first ones to complain about delays...whats good for tehm is usually not good for others as far as theyre concerned

Some have learnt the hard way... and i make no regrets about pissing people off...
Im in this game as a business.. not to make friends.. friends are always welcome, but in the end, im not thier to be their buddy.. no matter how chummy we get and no matter how many BBQ's im invited to..

As hard as your remarks may sound....you are right on the money. I have no problem reiterating this policy to a client who after I spend a lot of time on their project......they want to change this or that. I highly doubt they would stay and work late for their boss....for free. I mean, the boss says this, "as much as I love your the work you do around here, I want you to stay late today.....about 5 hours or so over, and were not going to pay your overtime...as a matter of fact, we're just not going to pay since were already pay you for a 40 hour work week.....why should we pay you more to work over????"

Well guys/gals......this is what a client is asking of you if your contract states you do not allow creative changes. They are not respecting the time you have spent working on their project and what they are asking you to do...is to work overtime, for nothing.....

Fortunatley most of my clients are fully aware of my policy.....sometimes a few forget or act like they did not know this, and I have no problem reminding them.

THere's a fine line between providing excellent customer service and flat out being taking advantage of.

something to think about.



whats reall starting to get to me though, is clients coming back after all is said and done with a change of mind..

I also hate the fact that the lower end clients who know full well they have no say in the matter wanting preliminaries, and when advised , nope sorry, they throw a tantrum..

its for this reason i show the event on the timeline.. as there is no processing involved with this...
One thing i have noticed however, is that some clients have no consideration for others and believe that i will spend as much time in the world to appease them.. in sacrifice of time to other clients also waiting... they dont see that what theyre doing is slowling down everyone elses.. but its these same people who cause the delays, are usually the first ones to complain about delays...whats good for tehm is usually not good for others as far as theyre concerned

Some have learnt the hard way... and i make no regrets about pissing people off...
Im in this game as a business.. not to make friends.. friends are always welcome, but in the end, im not thier to be their buddy.. no matter how chummy we get and no matter how many BBQ's im invited to..

another thing with clients is that if ur loaded with work, and they KNOW this, hence teh time it took to get them their stuff, they feel that they have a "right" to ask for changes.. moreso if they pay in advance...

ive just rewritten my contract to restipulate, in dumbass terms, that the payment structure and delivery DOES NOT bear any weight upon the product.


"chosen music may or may not be used in the manner in which was originally considered by the Client. In this case, it is highly recommended that the Client specify WHEN and HOW they want each piece of chosen music to be used BEFORE the actual day of filming. If not, XYZ will use its discretion in music selection and placement.
The Client may consider providing additional material to be used within their product such as Poetry Readings, Photographs, Negatives, Slides, Text Fonts, Voiceover Recordings, Music, Corporate Logos, Animations, and Presentations etc. XYZ must be advised of this request, if any, at the time of booking.

((this is funny.. had a cop client refuse to provide a CD.. then had the audacity to say "anything frm the movie top gun"
so i used "danger ZOne"
hmm.. no we dont like that.. how bout the synth intro instead.. im like.. WTF.. i spent a whole day on 4 minuts worth of footage syncing the bastard... NOW u tell me what song u want.. go fekk urself.. couldnt say that though..
Oh but we waited so long for our video..
err.. excuse me.. u sent me ur music in MARCH THIS YEAR!! U got married in MARCH LAST YEAR..
MAN these people get my goat.. And its these morons who cause the delays to be the first to complain ABOUT the delays.. Ive really had it.. no seriously.. people love my work, they like me, they know what they have to do, but after the wedding, theyre like.. whoops.. wheres my brain.. ? ))

"The Client understands that it is not possible to request changes to selected music and editorial elements upon delivery of the final Presentation/s. The client understands that the finished Presentation/s has been structured with the original music selection. However, the Client may specify of any technical issues, if any, in writing within 5 calendar days upon receipt of the Preliminary copy. If no contact is made within that period, XYZ accepts this as approval for mass duplication for final distribution. Errors do not include visible artefacts stemming from encoding to compressed formats or special effects. All re-editing is at the final discretion of XYZ and will reflect the Client requests to the best of XYZ’s Artistic and Technological abilities. A labour and processing surcharge of $132.00 Per Hour is charged to each Presentation/Product if the Client requests any changes to be made after completion.
All Editing is performed in-house at XYZ’s Production studio. XYZ will NOT outsource its editing service under any circumstances. "


Thats what ive got...
now i dont know what part of that people dont understand.. but they DO sign it.. so as far as the law is concerned, their signing is an agreement to this clause..


"Final Payment must be received and cleared 21 days PRIOR to the day of filming.
If payment is not completed by this time, we will either e-mail, telephone or SMS the client with a reminder notice. If payment is not received in full, XYZ will not be held liable for non-attendance or delays in Post Production. The client understands that this common payment structure does not influence, change or bear any weight upon the services detailed within this Agreement."

Now i have never nto gone to a shoot coz they havent paid.. i usually rock on in, and hit record, but i wont budge until all the pay is in teh account. Ive had clients try to change the rules.. and im like.. look, uve paid the retainer, its acceptance of the agreement.
Oh but we should pay half now and half later.
Sorry, this was explained to you before u even looked at my work...

At the end of the day, we have a business to run. We have corporate clients and otehr wedding clients who know the ruls and they play by them. They get what they pay for and everyone is happy.
Those that dont play ,are the ones who are gonna give u trouble..

CYA
Cover your ass..

all it takes is one stupid client among the 50odd to thrw out ur schedule and djoint ur attitude to waht u do. it will make u question ur value, your talent and above all, question why you are doing what youre doing.
DONT let it get to that point.

I had no mentor and had noone to learn from. I went out, got my hands dirty and now ive seen it all.
One thing i no longer accept though is people feigning ignorance of the facts.. I also wont ever accept people using wait times and timing of payment as an excuse to request more from me.

Like Joe said, im not gettin paid overtime.
and neither should u..

Its bad enough we get paid peanuts compared to photographers, but then our post prod work is 10 times more intense...

Nup.. enough is enough

Some great points. I remember reading an article online about avoiding "grinder" clients. Wish I could find it again.

Anyway, a lot of it dealt with identifying exactly those kinds of clients you are talking about, and refusing to do work for them. The author's points (very valid) were that you would never make any money from them, cause they would grind you down in price and demand the moon in return, and that their referrals were useless, as they would refer you people just like them.

I've kept this advice to heart...

"and that their referrals were useless, as they would refer you people just like them."

Yup... its al about the CLASS of people youre dealing with.
I wont refuse a job if ive already commited halfway to it, and if they then turn, i reiterate the contract and try to throw them off.
My contract is so damn tight, that it scares many people if and ONLY IF theyre thinking about trying to work around it, to get their way.

Ive learnt the hard way

to this day, i have a client who got married in Jan 05, and they had teh audacity to complain about delays NOW, and i only recieved tehir friggin music SELECTION (not a cd) in July this year, and heres me thinking they were gonna give me a cd, so i wait and wait and wait..

meh.. never again..
U dont see photographers dealing with this crap or putting up with this crap

Why should we? Are we lower than a photographer? Seems people think we are.. and those that jump at a clients whim are what makes it even harder for us to stick to our guns...

I used to have an occassional problem with waiting for their music selections. Not any more. It is clearly staed in my aggreement which I do go over carefully with them that if I don't have the music selections by no later than the day of the wedding it will be edited without them and I will selection music based on the music played at the reception as far as genre. Now having said that I have had a couple of weddings this years where...'OH GEE! We forgot the cd' or other such dribble, BUT since I run 10-12 weeks anyway I decidedto give it a pass for a week. Both came thru. Honestly as long as I have the music by the time I start editing I really don't care. The only reason I have it in my agreement is to at least get them to start thinking about it before the wedding so hopefully they'll get the music to me by the day of.

Don

U dont see photographers dealing with this crap or putting up with this crap
Why should we? Are we lower than a photographer?

Not lower at all, except in the estimation of everyone but us...

It's all about perception. If today I started a business where I offered the service of a talented painter to follow the bride and groom around and once in a while stop to sketch important moments, perhaps it might catch on. But try and convince everyone that it's as good as a video.

Well, photography's been around forever, video is the late comer to the party. People 'know' they have to have photos. I mean, their parents did, their grandparents did. Do they really need a video......?

Wait until there are enough people around who still have their video from 30 years ago and treasure it, and show it to their kids who realize how lucky they are to be able to see their parents as a young couple, see the grandfather they only heard about, etc, etc.

Once it seeps more strongly into our society, I, for one, think video will kick photography's butt.

good points there vito...
u put it much more eloquently than i ever could..


As for the
'OH GEE! We forgot the cd' or other such dribble, BUT since I run 10-12 weeks anyway I decidedto give it a pass for a week. Both came thru. Honestly as long as I have the music by the time I start editing I really don't care. The only reason I have it in my agreement is to at least get them to start thinking about it before the wedding so hopefully they'll get the music to me by the day of.

I hear Ya Don, funny thign is, i give my clients a 3 page form to fill out, with specifc music selection spots for each respective scene.. they sign this..
and if they dont provide music tehre and then, i write down "to be provided on CD upon return from honeymoon"
The client gets a copy of this..
funny hwo they sit on it for a friggin year and feign ignorance when they have signed the bloody thing.. lol

Im really REALLY over this game..

Yeah, the music (and photos) thing from the client is a pain in the butt. Our contract states we do nothing until we have all the material they are supposed to provide.

So when they say, "Hey, where's my video? We were supposed to get it two months ago." We just say, "Give us the stuff, and get to the back of the line."

End of story. We don't sweat it at all. Heheh.

oh, i have in big fat bold capitals that "EDITING WILL NOT BEGIN UNTIL ALL CONDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS ARE MET" and associated information and materials are provided to us by the client.

thing is, even with this, its usually THEIR fault that its taken so bloody long to get the goods to them, and to many, this ignorance isnt somthing that they can handle.
Some are OK, but most of the ones who complain are teh ones whove taken their merry time with music, then expect u to jump hoops for them.

Funny though, i have high end clients whove paid $8k+ for tehir videos... and i tell you, not ONE of these clients who has delayed in giving me their stuff has complained. Its the cheaparsed low life scumbags who bitch and moan and frankly, ive had enough.
Im dealing with 2 clients as we speak whove taken over a year to ge their act together and then have the audacity to comaplin that its "been over a year"

No.. enough is enough.. we do what we do because we love it and were good at it. We make afew bux from it, but anyone running their own business who puts the kind of work we do wouldnt be doing it..

this is a joke of an industry, which has had negative precedents set by unskilled and illinformed ancestors before our time.
Theyve set up the industry back then for a a quick buck and hobbyist mentality, never to consider the implications it will have on the future of the wedding video industry itself.
THAT has now forced us to continue to evovle the industry to what it is today, without much room for us to showcase the differences between what was back then, compared to teh possibilites of today..

Only we can change the attitude of the client, but until the clients themselves are educated in what we do, then and only then, will we be appreciated for our work and dedication, and only THEN will we supercede our predecessors to overide the pathetic structures and misinformed public awareness of what we do.

Ive really had it with wedding video clients.. trully, i have never come across a group of ungrateful people who will do what they can to milk as much from you as is humanly possible.
You dont go to KMart and ask for a free brush with your hairdryer, u dont buy a washing machine and expect detergent..
What makes us any different?

I want to know whos smart idea it was to set these "business" structures in motion, as the public themselves NOW seem to thnk that its ok to ask for discounts and the like..
Whoever it was needs a lesson in business management and planning..

but i tell you, it wont change.. so long as backyard warriors are out there trudging through trying to make a name for themselves, and for every mistake they make, that precedent will always exist...
Until the industry is regulated, it wont EVER change..

Its the cheaparsed low life scumbags who bitch and moan and frankly, ive had enough.

Holy crap! I think I just snorted a bagel through my nose....

Thanks Peter, for the first good laugh of the day.

glad you enjoyed it.. pretty funny really.. coz this guy im dealing with now, tried to get me to compete with another company during the booking. Ohtheyre giving me this and that.. and im like.. good for them..
but they booked me even thoguh i am more expensive and offered less..
Now this dudes been married since Feb last year.. i got their music choice in July THIS YEAR.. but they didnt say where they wanted the music..
now they tell me...

and now they want "compensation"

oh theres another one..


i cant believe it took u a year to do this much..

err.. dude.. u gave me ur music 5 weeks ago... and you recieved your prelim well before the 18week turnaround. What part of "the following material content does NOT represent teh finished product" dont understand..

jeez these people drive me INSANE!!!!!!!

Oh heres a doozy

"Other than that" < here hes refering to remvoing a shot of teh bride as she drops her head which creates a double chin... and a chot of mum gettin her makeup done... >

" it looks good so far. As discussed at our original meeting
> we were under the impression there would be a lot more effects in the
> presentation though I'm sure this is the case for the shorter versions"

((And WHEN pray tell.. did movies include pacman transitions and flying paper aeroplanes? or would you prefer spinning cubes?

I give clients ONE proof disk, they can make whatever requests they want. I grant what I can. I tell them this in my contract. If they make an unreasonable request I tell them I cant and give them an extra copy or two to make them happy. Been lucky so far, I have worked for some very nice people.

Peter you crack me up, because everything you say is so true. I have to amend everything in my contract to prevent my schedule from being held up because of non-delivery of music. I had a situation this week where all of a sudden the video is done, and a bride now wants music put in. Do you know how many times it was asked for? I told her I was happy to re-edit at $100 hour. Tune changed.

You talk about 'emotional attachment.' I'M the one who gets emotionally attached when I sit for hours and hours editing someone's event. Then I get really disappointed when the bride doesn't invest in me, the way I invested in making her DVD look beautiful. I always do more than I should. I always put more time and technique in, and I shouldn't. That's just who I am. But I won't do it anymore. I think this is the worst part of being a videographer, the lack of appreciation. Because of this, I'm developing the photography part of my business more and the videography less. I will offer both services, but hopefully as a packaged set. I totally get why videographers are disappointed no one truly appreciates their talents in the moment.