Final Cut Pro/GY-HD111E import problems?

With a brand new Mac Pro and very latest Final Cut Studio complete with updates I'm having a little problem trying to import footage directly from a JVC GY-HD111E (yes I'm in PAL land, UK) via FireWire into FCP.

Footage is 720p/25p and timeline is set up in FCP that way.

I'm doing a 'capture now'. The first clip I'm trying to import is about 45 minutes long with no cuts/breaks whatsoever.

What happens is after about 60 seconds or so, it FCP automatically breaks the clip for no reason and starts a new one, trouble is, when it does this I lose about 4 seconds of footage at that point.

It continues to break clips randomly, sometimes after 40 seconds or so, sometimes after 95 seconds, but usually between 30 seconds and 2 minutes and each time it starts a new clip I lose between 1 and 6 seconds.

As I say, there are zero breaks or cuts in this clip, I have a 45 minute clip that was shot in one take, not even a pause anywhere.

Is this a JVC issue or a Final Cut issue?

It's a pain as it simply means I can't import my 9 hours of footage hence I can't get on with this project.

Any ideas why this phenomenon is happening?

Thanks guys.

Final Cut Pro/GY-HD111E import problems?

With a brand new Mac Pro and very latest Final Cut Studio complete with updates I'm having a little problem trying to import footage directly from a JVC GY-HD111E (yes I'm in PAL land, UK) via FireWire into FCP.

Footage is 720p/25p and timeline is set up in FCP that way.

I'm doing a 'capture now'. The first clip I'm trying to import is about 45 minutes long with no cuts/breaks whatsoever.

What happens is after about 60 seconds or so, it FCP automatically breaks the clip for no reason and starts a new one, trouble is, when it does this I lose about 4 seconds of footage at that point.

It continues to break clips randomly, sometimes after 40 seconds or so, sometimes after 95 seconds, but usually between 30 seconds and 2 minutes and each time it starts a new clip I lose between 1 and 6 seconds.

As I say, there are zero breaks or cuts in this clip, I have a 45 minute clip that was shot in one take, not even a pause anywhere.

Is this a JVC issue or a Final Cut issue?

It's a pain as it simply means I can't import my 9 hours of footage hence I can't get on with this project.

Any ideas why this phenomenon is happening?

Thanks guys.


Not sure whose "fault" it is but I recently had the same problem. I had to use the Apple Intermediate Codec to capture 720p footage from the JVC cams.

Joe

Not sure whose "fault" it is but I recently had the same problem. I had to use the Apple Intermediate Codec to capture 720p footage from the JVC cams.

Joe

I am trying to figure this out as well in the apple forum. I had to capture my 720/30p footage using AIC, and I had to manually control my deck, FCP would not communicate with it. If I get and answer from Apple, I'll post.

FCP sees a drop out and creates a new clip, you can change the settings.
With HDV everytime theres a start and stop within the clip it will create a new clip. Unfortunately there isn't an AIC for 720/25p because AIC does not create new clips when it detects a break.

If I change the settings I'll then be stuck with a bunch of clips with dropout instead; just as bad as missing seconds really.

What if I get my hands on an actual JVC deck, would this help?

I suspect it is a JVC camera thing as opposed to an Apple thing as I never had this with DVCAM.

I'm convinced this is a JVC FireWire out from the camera issue. I noticed the JVC struggles to output a nice smooth continuos stream when viewing dailies from the camera.

JVC UK also told me that the JVC does stutter out the footage down the FireWire pipe into the computer, but once there it plays back fine on the timeline.

It would appear that it doesn't though. It would appear that each time the JVC stutters, jumps, drops a frame, whatever out of the FireWire as you are importing into the computer, FCP starts a new clip, but because of the GoP structure of HDV, FCP loses a few frames or even seconds.

Won't AIC drop quality over native HDV?

HDV breaks the clips when there is a stop start in the recording, it's not a JVC thing but your 5 second blanks might be, as for the deck go use it and get a decklink and capture it via component and you will get drop out free footage.

Jemore, I know all about the start/stop recording clip breaks.

But I'm talking about a 15 minute clip here, no start/stop/pause, nothing, simply one long clip. JVC can't output via FireWire for more than about a minute without a glitch that causes FCP to think a new clip has started, even though it has not.

I have a Decklink HD Extreme, what do you suggest my workflow be to get the footage in the computer?

The fault will still be at the FireWire output of the JVC so a Decklink card won't fix this.

It is strange. I have been capturing in HDV30 and this has only happened once to me and it ruined my shot which was supposed to be one continuous shot. Perhaps you have a faulty camera?

As for the suggesting of capturing out of component wont this degrade your image significantly as you are converting from digital to analogue and then back again? Or have I got this wrong.

Rob

Annoyed with JVC import problem; will they ever fix this?

I've shot footage on JVC GY-HD111E in the UK in 720p/25p PAL mode.

I'm trying to import lots of short clips (average 10 seconds) into Final Cut Pro (latest version with 720p/25p support) with a new Mac Pro maxed out with ram and 3 extra internal HDs.

Problem is, on a scene-break i.e. pause/stop, Final Cut detects this and creates a new clip, but it takes about 5 seconds to 'searching for media" before it starts the new clip. Because some clips are only very short, this 5 second delay sometimes means I only get the final few frames of a clip, rather than the entire 5 seconds or so of it.

JVC UK are blaming Apple and are saying it is up to them to fix it as Premiere and Edius does not have this problem.

However, Symbiosis in the UK (who do HD-Connect box) say that the JVC ProHD cameras do not wrap the shots up properly at the end, they are kind of left open and this creates problems on scene-breaks.

I've tried turning off the "create new clip on timecode break" etc, but it does not make any difference, when I do this it simply quits capturing on a scene break. Besides I have about 300 cutaways like this and I don't want to spend the rest of the year breaking them up on the timeline as this would be a futile and long workflow.

I'm importing and working on a native HDV 720p/25p timeline and this is the way I want to work. I've already imported and edited 4 hours of footage, but these 4 hours were easy as all 4 tapes had no start/stop points, they were recorded continuously from beginning to end of tape for 64 minutes each time so importing was no problem; 1 clip per tape.

But now I've come to my 5 tapes containing hundreds of cutaways I'm kind of screwed and need some advise on how I can import them natively in HDV without losing this 5 seconds off the beginning of each clip whilst FCP searches for the media each time.

Is it a JVC issue or a FCP issue, any ideas how I can get around this?

HDV breaks the clips when there is a stop start in the recording, it's not a JVC thing but your 5 second blanks might be, as for the deck go use it and get a decklink and capture it via component and you will get drop out free footage.

I have Decklink HD Extreme card. If I capture Component into FCP, will it still be native HDV 720p/25p footage once on the timeline?

Will there be any quality losses via Component?

Nigel - I was holding out for news on JVC upgrading the firmware (& possibly hardware) as per your earlier post. I guess you would've posted an update where there any announcements.
Seems a lot of the excitement with this camera's 24/25p HDV capabilities (on FCP at least) has been subdued by many reported importing problems.

I've yet to capture natively in 25p but intend on doing so very shortly - I'll probably end up using David Knagg's 'DVHSCap-MPEG Streamclip-AIC' workflow should I hit any problems (and I'd now be surprised if I didn't find any such issues).

Interesting those other apps don't have the issue, but are they actually capturing HDV and not an intermediate codec?

Its my understanding that its natural for this to occur with any HDV media as it uses GOP's instead of individual frames for compression.

I've instructed all our shooters to roll 10 seconds pre and post when shooting so this doesn't present a problem. its not a solution but a workaround that works.

It would be great if it could be rectified though.

I've gone back to doing it the proper way i.e. marking in/out points and doing a batch capture. This works fine, only you still lose half a second each end of the clip; probably down to GoPs though.

So you just have to be disciplined and log and capture everything with timecode in/out points then do a batch capture.

I hope Apple/JVC between them fix the Capture Now feature though as this is handy when you only have a few clips to bring in and you know they are all good.

I've gone back to doing it the proper way i.e. marking in/out points and doing a batch capture. This works fine, only you still lose half a second each end of the clip; probably down to GoPs though.

So you just have to be disciplined and log and capture everything with timecode in/out points then do a batch capture.

I hope Apple/JVC between them fix the Capture Now feature though as this is handy when you only have a few clips to bring in and you know they are all good.

Nigel, I think you have it figured out. My belief is that with any long GOP format, you will need to allow a little more pre-roll and post roll.

Nigel, I think you have it figured out. My belief is that with any long GOP format, you will need to allow a little more pre-roll and post roll.

You got that right, used to DVCAM. You live and learn.

Looking forward to moving into an XDCAM HD file-based workflow where I don't suffer these tape-based issues though.

Cheers

You got that right, used to DVCAM. You live and learn.

Looking forward to moving into an XDCAM HD file-based workflow where I don't suffer these tape-based issues though.

Cheers

Nigel,

If you a re looking for a tapeless solution, we already have that. Just add a DR-HD100 HDD recorder to your GY-HD100 camera. It will give you several hours of tapeless HD recording.

Regards,

Nigel,

If you a re looking for a tapeless solution, we already have that. Just add a DR-HD100 HDD recorder to your GY-HD100 camera. It will give you several hours of tapeless HD recording.

Regards,

How many hours? As advertised 7 hours? and does it allow the 24p native import in FCP yet?

Thanks

How many hours? As advertised 7 hours? and does it allow the 24p native import in FCP yet?

Thanks

Hi Brian,

The 80 GB unit will record about 7.5 hours of HDV footage.

Quicktime is now available in HDV 30p, but not yet in 24p. This will come soon in a firmware upgrade. Hwever, you can shoot in 24p in the .m2t format, and "Capture" in FCP, in realtime. Although the time-savings benefit is lost, you still get huge capacity and the comfort of knowing you have 2 copies of everything you shoot.

Regards,

Nigel, I think you have it figured out. My belief is that with any long GOP format, you will need to allow a little more pre-roll and post roll.

Carl,
I'm confused. I thought this was a problem with the camera that was supposedly fixed with the "A" upgrade. I thought my upgrade was just botched.

Does this mean ALL HD-100's cannot capture a full tape in FCP with start and stops straight through without dropping large amounts of footage? I shoot stuff that is impossible not to start and stop constantly. Is this type of shooting not possible with the HD-100? If so, how can I get my money back? How are other people dealing with such a MAJOR malfunction? This has been driving me nuts for a year now. I wish I knew it was just a lack of functionality from the beginning. No wonder my JVC rep will never call me back!

I understand your frustration Burt. If I could turn the clocks back I would not bother with JVC gear at all. I have a BR-HD50 deck with the very latest firmware as well as a GY-HD111 and the both screw up importing into FCP.

I'm now importing via timecode in/out points and batch capture, but I'm still losing anything up to 2 seconds on each end, average half to one second. GoP structure with JVC is every 6 frames, which is about quarter of a second so I don't know why it still loses up to 2 seconds via deck.

Somebody else mentioned I did not leave enough handle for this. I'm used to shooting on DSR570 and 390 in DVCAM mode and I never had this issue and my handles were always long enough for me. When people say I have to leave an extra 5-seconds of handle, on top of my handle due to a JVC/FCP screw up I just can't accept that.

Carl I know what you mean with the DR-HD100, but to me fitting a hard drive to a camcorder designed for tape is futile and a bit Frankenstein like; can't see the point. I'd rather just buy a camcorder that was built for that workflow to start with. Infinity with HD for example, or XDCAM HD to disc, but a tape camcorder with drive bolted on doesn't do it for me.

I'm not just buying XDCAM HD because of its amazing workflow, but the image quality. XDCAM HD is in a different ballpark altogether. There is about another 40 reasons why I'm going XDCAM HD. JVCs totally unreliable products, garbage GoP structure and import into FCP are just 3 of them.

Shame really as the so-called ProHD range of camcorders could potentially be pretty good, but JVC Japan simply don't talk to software companies like Apple and they let the public be the beta-testers, Sony don't have this crass attitude.

Shooting on the GY-HD111 has been fun as it functions like a real camera, but I've since learned after shooting with it for 4 months that it is an acquisition tool only, don't expect to be able to edit a programme with the dailies, they will stay dailies.

I've never experienced such a bloody difficult workflow than I have with ProHD and their 720p/25p.

For me Sony's XDCAM HD is by far the best, easiest, most reliable, fastest and sweetest system to work with from acquisition to DVD. JVCs ProHD is at the other end of that spectrum, it is the most cumbersome, difficult, unreliable and unfriendly system to work with on the face of the planet.

Come new year it is going on eBay.

This is not sour grapes, when you've spent 4 months shooting daily to put together a programme only to find no Mac based edit system in the world wants to talk to it, you are kind of left with a sour taste in your mouth.

I will be able to complete this project, but it is going to take me about 200 times longer than it would if I had shot it on XDCAM HD to start with and I'm going to have to lug a ton of lighting gear back to a studio 100 miles from me to shoot a presenter again as 3 of my important auto-cue shots have drop-out on them which has killed vital words due to GoPs and FCP won't import them anyway as it doesn't like the drop-out. So it will be a pain in the butt to edit now, but I must struggle on with this to the bitter end.

It's like a prison sentence with my edit suite and it takes all the fun out of using FCP and Mac, I usually really enjoy the editing part, not with ProHD though ;(

Your problems are interesting but it seems that HDV wasn't such a good choice for you in the first place. But in your defense none of the capture issues were well known until recently.

I have been shooting with the camera since March and aside from some problems that I half-expected from adopting a very new technology, it's been a very good experience. My style is to always run the tape for 10 seconds before "action", even with DVCam. Your quick take shooting style is, unfortunately, not a happy mix with the format. As Mr Hicks suggests, a hard disk recorder would work great, I use one and the tape goes on the shelf as backup. A smart way to safeguard valuable footage.

What to do with your footage now? DVHSCap and MPEGStreamclip might work perfectly. AIC capture would probably work as well and save time.

I would also check the timecode setup on your camera to made sure it's not jumping frames on pauses, this always screws up Final Cut. Switch off "Stop capture on time code breaks" in FCPs preferences.

If I lived in England I would be happy to pick up the "garbage" when you toss it out.

Nigel, I feel your pain.

I've been researching the HDV workflow using FCP for some time now as it has become obvious that for professional work one should invest in either of the Black Magic or AJA cards. Seems like if you just bought the AJA KonaLH ($1600 US) and digitize as DVCPro HD all you headaches would be gone.

Timecode comes in through RS422- no muss no fuss.

You'll need more storage but that's not to much to ask for a workflow that's the same as it was for good ol' DV.

As soon as the HD200 comes out I'm getting 2 of them plus the deck and the Kona LH card.

Hi Nigel.

I noticed on another thread that your question didn't get answered:
"Won't AIC drop quality over native HDV?"

I'm addressing it in this thread because it might help you make a decision on a workflow that could save you endless hours in editing your current project.

Tim Dashwood did research into AIC last year and gave some of the findings in this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56015

And I'll give a few excerpts here of what Tim said in that thread:

"Besides, I wouldn't consider HDV to be the "best" for any post workflow, but it works well for aquisition."
...
"If you want to edit for 35mm blowup, use the same workflow above transcoding to AIC codec. The AIC codec is compressed (not as much as HDV) but considered "lossless" because it doesn't seem to make the image any worse than it was before."
...
"For most purposes, the layman is not going to see the difference between AIC or uncompressed, but once in uncompressed there is no generation loss at all."

I know there's been a recommendation to work in DVCPRO HD and I did work with that codec late last year but abandoned it for AIC because the camera is capturing a full 1280 X 720, yet DVCPRO HD will squeeze it into 960 X 720 (per my understanding). AIC will keep it at the full 1280 X 720.

The only posts I've ever seen reporting problems with AIC have been from people working with interlaced footage (1080i). AIC works best with progressive footage and gives excellent results.

Nigel, I feel your pain.

I've been researching the HDV workflow using FCP for some time now as it has become obvious that for professional work one should invest in either of the Black Magic or AJA cards. Seems like if you just bought the AJA KonaLH ($1600 US) and digitize as DVCPro HD all you headaches would be gone.

Timecode comes in through RS422- no muss no fuss.

This was the solution that I figured could at least work in my studio with my desktop machines, but. The card I already had was a Decklink Extreme which according to the manufaturer doesn't support 720 30P.

So I invested in a KonaLHe card. Just got it in and the RS422 is completely screwed up with my BR-HD50. The control constantly flips between saying "VTR OK" and "VTR Local". By constantly, I mean every 2-3 seconds. After a few of these then it will bring up the "New tape has been inserted..." message. It cannot digitize anything!

My problem now is who is going to help me? The Kona RS422 works fine on by Beta deck (Sony UVW-1800) and on my DVCAM (Sony DSR-40) and even on my JVC DV600. So that would tend to make me think that the problem is in the BR-HD50 deck. BUT that deck works fine with by Decklink card's RS422. There's no way to trouble shoot this, and I'm sure each company will say it's the others problem.

To top off my troubles with all my JVC HD stuff, if I try to turn on the time code display to make a window dub for my clients, the deck displays not only the TC, but about 20 random numbers across the middle of the screen, plus it displays the status of the "repeat" function. The only thing turned on in the displa menu is TC, as these others (whatever they may be) aren't even an option.

I'm a 15 year loyal JVC fan, but I may be done.

So it's not just us poor forgotten Avid users that are feeling the pain!

David I don't think their is an AIC for 720p/25 PAL, this is where I keep running into a brick wall. If I lived in USA most of my issues would go away; I think. Although I love the USA and would entertain living there, for now it is easier for me to dump JVC in favor of Sony gear.

10 months back I shot a programme on my 2 Sony Z1s and edited natively with no problems at all, that was back then.

I have BM Decklink HD extreme, but don't like the sound of the Component way of doing it. Don't really see why I should have to figure out alternative workflows because JVC can't get it right. Maybe cutting off my nose to spite my face here, but...

I was thinking of going for HD-Connect box too, but then I'd be going from one lossy (HDV) codec into another (DVCPROHD). Can't see the point of this either as DVCPROHD only really works as a codec if you shot on that format to start with. Moving over from HDV shot footage into a DVCPRO workflow is just a workaround that people tend to do because it works better than the inferior format that was developed by JVC; or that's how I see it. I'd rather buy a DVCPRO camcorder to start with.

Trouble is that I've imported 3 tapes and edited them in native HDV 720p/25p PAL already. I could import these 3 tapes easy via FireWire as they were Auto-Cue to camera, which simply ran from beginning to end with no stops (64 minute clip with no start/stop etc). This was fine as missing first 5 seconds from the beginning was simply the presenter warming up anyway, that and bars of course. But 5 more tapes containing over a hundred cutaways on each is a major problem and I must stick with the native HDV workflow I've started.

I'm kind of sorted on this with my batch capture procedure, only losing up to a second or so, I can live with this as most cutaways are 10 seconds and I only need 5 or so at most.

It would have been too much to expect from a consumer to have to borrow a camcorder, buy an entire new edit suite just to do some tests to make sure it works. Besides, when I bought into ProHD I understood that FCP did not support it, but I also figured it would only be a few months before it would as there were talks from Apple that it was coming soon. So by the time my 4 month shoot would be over, FCP would be supporting it. I just didn't count on the first release of this support by Apple to be the way it is and I didn't expect the JVC cameras to have dodgy firmware that caused FireWire out issues in abundance.

You do learn from your mistakes, but I think it is unfair for major companies like this to make the consumer pay though the nose to be a beta-tester. Next time I'll research a bit more. May be "junk" was a bit strong, but I've worked hard on this project and have come too far to simply shelve it.

Anyway, I've sort of got a solution and it is working okay, though somewhat twitchy and I have to sit there and watch it every frame of the way.

Thanks again guys for advise and input on this one.

Nigel I'm sorry about your situation, I would be more than happy to take the HD100 of your hands, name me the price and we can talk, I have the HD100u but I'm living in Australia now so I need a PAL camera, tell me, is your camera the 100e or the 101e?

To top off my troubles with all my JVC HD stuff, if I try to turn on the time code display to make a window dub for my clients, the deck displays not only the TC, but about 20 random numbers across the middle of the screen, plus it displays the status of the "repeat" function. The only thing turned on in the displa menu is TC, as these others (whatever they may be) aren't even an option.


That's a broken deck. Send it back to JVC or your dealer.

Carl,
I'm confused. I thought this was a problem with the camera that was supposedly fixed with the "A" upgrade. I thought my upgrade was just botched.

Does this mean ALL HD-100's cannot capture a full tape in FCP with start and stops straight through without dropping large amounts of footage? I shoot stuff that is impossible not to start and stop constantly. Is this type of shooting not possible with the HD-100? If so, how can I get my money back? How are other people dealing with such a MAJOR malfunction? This has been driving me nuts for a year now. I wish I knew it was just a lack of functionality from the beginning. No wonder my JVC rep will never call me back!

Hi Burt,

With over 15,000 of the GY-HD100 / 110 cameras in use, and a large number of those cameras being successfully used with FCP, I don't think we have a "MAJOR" malfunction on our hands as you suggest. Isolated cases, yes, but not an epidemic situation.

We have people and resources available to solve problems. Have you talked to our Customer Support team, your District Sales Manager, or your Regional Sales Engineer about this? Since your profile does not show your location, I'm not sure who to refer you to.

Also, I know all of the other District Sales Managers in the U.S., and I'd be surprised if any of them would just flat not call a customer back. Please send me a private e-mail with your location, the dealer name that you bought from, and their location, so I can figure out who your manager is, and I'll ask them directly to call you. My e-mail address is carlh@jvc.com

Regards,

Your problems are interesting but it seems that HDV wasn't such a good choice for you in the first place. But in your defense none of the capture issues were well known until recently.

I have been shooting with the camera since March and aside from some problems that I half-expected from adopting a very new technology, it's been a very good experience. My style is to always run the tape for 10 seconds before "action", even with DVCam. Your quick take shooting style is, unfortunately, not a happy mix with the format. As Mr Hicks suggests, a hard disk recorder would work great, I use one and the tape goes on the shelf as backup. A smart way to safeguard valuable footage.

What to do with your footage now? DVHSCap and MPEGStreamclip might work perfectly. AIC capture would probably work as well and save time.

I would also check the timecode setup on your camera to made sure it's not jumping frames on pauses, this always screws up Final Cut. Switch off "Stop capture on time code breaks" in FCPs preferences.

If I lived in England I would be happy to pick up the "garbage" when you toss it out.

William, thanks for the good tips.

Regards,

Nigel, I feel your pain.

I've been researching the HDV workflow using FCP for some time now as it has become obvious that for professional work one should invest in either of the Black Magic or AJA cards. Seems like if you just bought the AJA KonaLH ($1600 US) and digitize as DVCPro HD all you headaches would be gone.

Timecode comes in through RS422- no muss no fuss.

You'll need more storage but that's not to much to ask for a workflow that's the same as it was for good ol' DV.

As soon as the HD200 comes out I'm getting 2 of them plus the deck and the Kona LH card.

Justin, thanks for the good tips.

Regards,

This was the solution that I figured could at least work in my studio with my desktop machines, but. The card I already had was a Decklink Extreme which according to the manufaturer doesn't support 720 30P.

So I invested in a KonaLHe card. Just got it in and the RS422 is completely screwed up with my BR-HD50. The control constantly flips between saying "VTR OK" and "VTR Local". By constantly, I mean every 2-3 seconds. After a few of these then it will bring up the "New tape has been inserted..." message. It cannot digitize anything!

My problem now is who is going to help me? The Kona RS422 works fine on by Beta deck (Sony UVW-1800) and on my DVCAM (Sony DSR-40) and even on my JVC DV600. So that would tend to make me think that the problem is in the BR-HD50 deck. BUT that deck works fine with by Decklink card's RS422. There's no way to trouble shoot this, and I'm sure each company will say it's the others problem.

To top off my troubles with all my JVC HD stuff, if I try to turn on the time code display to make a window dub for my clients, the deck displays not only the TC, but about 20 random numbers across the middle of the screen, plus it displays the status of the "repeat" function. The only thing turned on in the displa menu is TC, as these others (whatever they may be) aren't even an option.

I'm a 15 year loyal JVC fan, but I may be done.

Burt, does your BR-HD50U have the latest firmware? You can check your firmware version and update if needed by following the instructions at this website: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/software_dow.jsp?model_id=MDL101540&feature_id=17&itempath=null

If your deck is updated, and you still have trouble with the Kona Card, perhaps you could get together by phone with Justin to compare settings on the Mac and the deck, since he's got that combination working.

If you still have trouble with the window dub mode, then perhaps it needs to go in for a service check.

Regards,

Hi Nigel.

I noticed on another thread that your question didn't get answered:
"Won't AIC drop quality over native HDV?"

I'm addressing it in this thread because it might help you make a decision on a workflow that could save you endless hours in editing your current project.

Tim Dashwood did research into AIC last year and gave some of the findings in this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56015

And I'll give a few excerpts here of what Tim said in that thread:

"Besides, I wouldn't consider HDV to be the "best" for any post workflow, but it works well for aquisition."
...
"If you want to edit for 35mm blowup, use the same workflow above transcoding to AIC codec. The AIC codec is compressed (not as much as HDV) but considered "lossless" because it doesn't seem to make the image any worse than it was before."
...
"For most purposes, the layman is not going to see the difference between AIC or uncompressed, but once in uncompressed there is no generation loss at all."

I know there's been a recommendation to work in DVCPRO HD and I did work with that codec late last year but abandoned it for AIC because the camera is capturing a full 1280 X 720, yet DVCPRO HD will squeeze it into 960 X 720 (per my understanding). AIC will keep it at the full 1280 X 720.

The only posts I've ever seen reporting problems with AIC have been from people working with interlaced footage (1080i). AIC works best with progressive footage and gives excellent results.

David & Tim ,

Thanks for the good tips.

Regards,

I'm confused. I thought this was a problem with the camera that was supposedly fixed with the "A" upgrade. I thought my upgrade was just botched.

Does this mean ALL HD-100's cannot capture a full tape in FCP with start and stops straight through without dropping large amounts of footage? I shoot stuff that is impossible not to start and stop constantly. Is this type of shooting not possible with the HD-100? If so, how can I get my money back? How are other people dealing with such a MAJOR malfunction? This has been driving me nuts for a year now. I wish I knew it was just a lack of functionality from the beginning. No wonder my JVC rep will never call me back!
This is not a major malfunction, and it is doubtful you will ever be able to capture a HDV tape with start/stop breaks without losing something. If you understand how tapes, TC, preroll sync, control track and Mpeg2 TS work, then this shouldn't come as a surprise.
Let's compare to a DV deck. Each frame is independent of all other frames, so when you hit REC on DV the record head records a new frame wherever it happens to be sitting on the tape. You would also have to record TC in REGEN mode in order to capture this tape without breaking and recueing the clips. A DV tape still needs preroll to capture properly, but the structure of all I frames allows capture over start/stop breaks.

Now, looking at HDV, we can meet the TC criteria by shooting with TC in REGEN mode, but no matter what we do, a new GOP structure will be created each time we start recording. I've heard that Sony somehow managed to create continuous unbroken GOP structures over start-stop breaks, but I haven't confirmed it. I don't believe the JVC cameras look at what is already on the tape and attempt to start a new GOP pattern at the next logical I frame. It seems they start recording wherever the tape sits.
This means that we need enough preroll at each start/stop break to get the tape to speed, have the camera identify the mode and frame rate, and start reading the GOP structure. This typically takes a few seconds.
I doubt any firmware update will be able to remedy this issue.
However, if you do shoot with REGEN TC you should be able to preroll into the previous shot.

The easy solution is to use the professional method and just shoot preroll. If you can't afford the time to shoot preroll, then explore the DR-HD100 with the 10 second cache function, or attempt cloning the tape.
AIC capture (without TC) also works on occassion, as well as lowering the preroll time in the device control preset.

I've gone back to doing it the proper way i.e. marking in/out points and doing a batch capture. This works fine, only you still lose half a second each end of the clip; probably down to GoPs though.

So you just have to be disciplined and log and capture everything with timecode in/out points then do a batch capture.

I hope Apple/JVC between them fix the Capture Now feature though as this is handy when you only have a few clips to bring in and you know they are all good.
And that pretty well sums it up. The best editors, assistant editors and post-supervisors are disciplined. It is much easier to flag problems that way.

This is a summary of what I've gotten out of your posts:
You have a tape full of clips without enough preroll and you want capture them all without losing anything.
You are experiencing preroll gaps on HDV capture with "capture now"
You had some dropouts on a few tapes and need to reshoot.
JVC doesn't talk with Apple and "lets the public be the beta testers."
You think JVC makes "totally unreliable products" for these reasons
Have I got it right?

First off, I'm not on this board to defend JVC, I primarily only help people with a piece of technology I happen to have alot of experience with. However, it seems like you wouldn't have said some of things you have said before you tasted XDCAMHD, and it really is unfair to JVC. Technology moves fast and it often seems Sony gets preferential treatment from Apple when new products are released. XDCAM HD is a brilliant system (we even lost our own Nate Weaver to XDCAM HD) but you can't buy one with a lens for $6000, so there isn't much point in comparing it to the HD100.
As for your comment on JVC and software companies, I know that Apple was working with JVC on this for a long long time. I have no idea why it took so long, and I'd bet JVC doesn't either. Apple does things at their own pace and it just so happened that we had to wait until September 2006 for ProHD support. It is too bad, but you can't blame JVC for Apple's development pace. They obviously intended to include support for everyone in the same update, and now JVC needs to catch up to some compatibility issues they probably weren't aware of back when they conducted the 'A' updates.

What we know so far is that none of the cameras are fully compatible in HDV 720P24/720P25 mode with FCP 5.1.2. A firmware update will be required - but we have no idea when JVC will release it or how they will manage it.
Using "Capture Now" has always caused problems with HDV. It is pointless to compare the "ease" of your old workflow with DV or DVCAM because the two formats are very very different. Apple and Oranges.

You said yourself that everything worked fine when you logged your clips first. I have an editorial background and that's just how I've always done things. This is probably why I haven't encountered the same issues.

The only problems I've encountered capturing native HDV in FCP 5.1.2 is that the TC timebase for 720P24 is assigned at 30fps instead of 24fps - regardless of the device preset. The simple fix is to set the TC to 24fps after the clips have captured, so no big deal, just a little inconvenience.

I doubt you are having this problem with 720P25.

So the bottom line for Native HDV capture from the HD100/101 is that log & capture works fine, but those attempting quick and easy "Capture Now" workflows are experiencing issues with dropped frames. The simple solution is don't use "Capture Now."

Now onto the BR-HD50 deck.
What we know is that the deck requires a firmware update for FCP 5.1.2 HDV native capture compatibility. We don't know exactly what this firmware update fixes, but it seems to work with log & capture.
I can't comment much more on the deck TC because I haven't finished testing it in all circumstances.

As for the deck and Decklink compatibility, you should have absolutely no problems if you set the deck, your deck control preset, and genlock properly.
I have successfully used the deck with decklink on a feature film - with both 720P24 and 720P25 sources.
The decklink defaults to work with BetaSP decks and similar, but the protocol RS-422 default of the BR-HD50 doesn't work the same.
You need to set it to TYPE 7 for better RS-422 communication.
You also may need to create a custom deck control preset in FCP for 25fps TC from LTC/VITC. This worked for me and had no issues capturing with correct timecode.
I recommend using uncompressed 8-bit. Stay away from DVCPROHD.
Of course, you'll need a RAID array to use the decklink properly. Also, download the latest driver so that you can get the 720P25 capability.
If you own a Decklink, it is the best way to work with any format. Just make sure you loop out your genlock when using the BR-HD50. The deck doesn't have a pro sync in, so instead set your output to black and use a T BNC tap to connect the genlock in to Y out of the Decklink. It looks funny but it works.

I am now going through the final stages of reconform, D.I., and output to HDCAM. So far, no problems. I will post a final report at the end of November.
It is important for me to point out though that I extensively tested my workflow BEFORE even shooting the project. Of course this was months ago before 720P24 HDV native capture and that's why I went with analog burn-in TC capture for the offline.

I recommend that anyone new to HDV planning to shoot and edit a project themselves thoroughly research and test the workflow. The worst thing is to jump into to something with a deadline, and not understand what the technology can and can't do.

I'm going to merge this thread with your original thread on the same topic.
I'll also be removing any "flame" posts from the thread in accordance with dvinfo's code of conduct (http://www.dvinfo.net/network/policy.php).

So I invested in a KonaLHe card. Just got it in and the RS422 is completely screwed up with my BR-HD50. The control constantly flips between saying "VTR OK" and "VTR Local". By constantly, I mean every 2-3 seconds. After a few of these then it will bring up the "New tape has been inserted..." message. It cannot digitize anything!


I'm a 15 year loyal JVC fan, but I may be done.

Hi Burt

Make sure you have the 1.06 firmware in your HD50. We've also suffered through the last 14 months of upgrades to the camera, deck and AJA. Believe me, version 1.02 had some MAJOR probs with serial control. There is also a bug in Kona that will corrupt the audio output when switching between formats in the BRHD50... AND LHe sometimes refuses to capture the downconverted 480i output of the BRHD50.

Something tells me there are some strange timing inconsistencies in the video. Since we can't genlock the deck in our studios, there's no way to test that theory. But as you say, all the other decks work fine. Somethings not quite right with the serial control.

Words of advice. Set the decks options to remain threaded when stopped or paused....increase the unthread timer. Set all preroll times to 7 secs in your editing software to give your shots a good runup to capture.

Wow! Tim very good information I am going to print this one out for myself.
Again you are a major attribute to this board.

Not having attempted to capture HDV on the HD100 as of yet, is it possible to point me in the right direction with regard to 'log and capture'? It may turn out that I experience no issues with the workflows suggested (even native 25p editing via FCP) but it would be very beneficial to understand the correct way to edit i.e. log and capture.
Apologies if this is basic knowledge but I'm only really getting to grips with video production (coming from audio background really).
Many thanks.

Wow! Tim very good information I am going to print this one out for myself.
Again you are a major attribute to this board.

I second that! Tim, your contributions and wealth of real-work knowledge are a valuable asset to us all.

Regards, Carl

Burt, does your BR-HD50U have the latest firmware? You can check your firmware version and update if needed by following the instructions at this website: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/software_dow.jsp?model_id=MDL101540&feature_id=17&itempath=null
,

I did do the update. Was hoping beyond hope that it would fix my problems. but no such luck.

I will contact you off-list about my info. I do appreciate your help on this list.

Just make sure you loop out your genlock when using the BR-HD50. The deck doesn't have a pro sync in, so instead set your output to black and use a T BNC tap to connect the genlock in to Y out of the Decklink. It looks funny but it works.


Thanks for your time on this Tim. Not quite getting how you setting up your Genlock. Are you saying that the signal from my BB generator should be split, with one end going to the Genlock in, and the other to the Y out of the Decklink?

I've heard that Sony somehow managed to create continuous unbroken GOP structures over start-stop breaks, but I haven't confirmed it.
What we know so far is that none of the cameras are fully compatible in HDV 720P24/720P25 mode with FCP 5.1.2. A firmware update will be required



Somebody on another forum pointed this out yesterday.
Said they have never had this issue with the Sony Cameras.

Tim what issues does fcp 5.1.2 have with the HD100?

This is not a major malfunction, and it is doubtful you will ever be able to capture a HDV tape with start/stop breaks without losing something. This typically takes a few seconds.
I doubt any firmware update will be able to remedy this issue.
However, if you do shoot with REGEN TC you should be able to preroll into the previous shot.

The easy solution is to use the professional method and just shoot preroll.


So the bottom line for Native HDV capture from the HD100/101 is that log & capture works fine, but those attempting quick and easy "Capture Now" workflows are experiencing issues with dropped frames. The simple solution is don't use "Capture Now."


I would have to disagree that not being able to capture the first few seconds of a clip is not a major malfunction. Perhaps malfunction is not the right word, but calling it anything other than a serious lack in performance capability would be incorrect. If the camera can not do this, as every other camera I've ever worked with or heard of can, than this is a red flag that needs to be noted somewhere,i.e. "unless you are using a Kona card, the first 2-3 seconds of your footage will be unusable in the HDV mode."

Rolling extra pre-roll in a controlled environment may be the "professional" way to do things, but in a ENG type of environment it can't always be done. I am shooting stuff that you have to react to the situation at hand. You cannot ask people to wait for your pre-roll. It also requires 80-100 shots per 60 minutes of tape which I may divide into 200 seperate clips. Since the advent of cheap drives I've been able to do this once the tape is digitized, which speeds up the process by over 100%. This is not using "Capture Now", I am setting an in point at the begining of the tape, and an out point at the end.

I now understand that perhaps the only way to use this camera in such a setting is to buy the DR-HD100 HDD recorder. It just doesn't seem to me that you should have to do this for a very common shooting style.

Burt Holland
Encyclomedia
Atlanta, GA

Just to reinforce my complaints with the ProHD equipment. Up until recently I owned two Sony Z1 camcorders and shot a number of projects on them. Sold them as I now prefer Progressive for certain things. The Z1s performed flawlessly from an editing point of view with Final Cut Pro. Both capture now and the batch capture methods worked to perfection. Scene breaks were detected and I never lost a single frame. Using log/capture method the clips that came in were accurate to the exact frame I'd marked in timecode. So it is not a HDV thing as all Sony cams I've used in 1080i have been perfect with no such hitch.

I've shot with loads of different formats over the years and edited mainly on FCP (since version 1.2, Media Studio Pro and Premiere before that) and I've simply never encountered the trouble I've had with JVC. I don't have anything against JVC equipment, after all I bought a load of it. But by my experience it is just too much trouble and just too twitchy. Hopefully in 6 to 10 months Apple and JVC will have sorted it between them. But I can't wait, I'll have moved over to Sony by then.

Somebody else mentioned that Apple give Sony more attention, I think they are right. Sony and Apple do talk a lot, I've even seen Sony CEO on stage with Steve Jobs during keynotes. No doubt they are in bed together and have a good relationship.

I am now going through the final stages of reconform, D.I., and output to HDCAM. So far, no problems. I will post a final report at the end of November.


Boy, I'm looking forward to this!

And thanks (as always) for the great post, Tim.

That's not the only way but it's a safe way. I went with a disc recorder when a couple of tapes suffered severe drop-outs. Believe me, drop outs on MPEG2 recorded tape can be terrible.

Working with MPEG2, HD or SD, has always been problematic and was predicted to be problematic when it was announced as the compression format of HDV. All of the issues Tim mentioned have always been known drawbacks to working with MPEG2 outside of transmission and simple video playback. In a way it's like how NTSC went from a black and white format to a color format. The conversion was essentially successful but we have been saddled with the drawbacks of cramming color information onto a format that was never formulated with color in mind. MPEG2 was never developed for editing , it was created to compress video information into small spaces with high quality. The only way to cram HD level quality onto economical tape formats with present technology is to use MPEG. That's it. Everyone has been trying to convert the MPEG signal into something with the flexibilty of frame-based video formats. That they (JVC, Apple & everyone else) have got it to work this well is remarkable. Otherwise we would all be editing at 6 or 15 frame intervals, OK for home movies and 1960's style high school science films.

I have found that I have to approach the camera and the editing process more like 16mm film (which I haven't touched in twenty years). The area around the camera stops and starts are liable to have problems (light leakage in 16mm, time code issues on the HD100). The viewfinder isn't very accurate in terms of image quality, that becomes a matter of experience with the cameras. And getting your edit started takes a little work but this seems to be improving with HDV.

JVC has created a very, very good camera for the price, nothing really comes close. Apple has created a very, very good production system for the price. The fact is the price difference for the next step up in HD quality shows we are in compromised territory. That we can produce such quality at this price level is worth working thru the hardships.

Or I'm just crazy.

I have found that I have to approach the camera and the editing process more like 16mm film (which I haven't touched in twenty years). The area around the camera stops and starts are liable to have problems (light leakage in 16mm, time code issues on the HD100). The viewfinder isn't very accurate in terms of image quality, that becomes a matter of experience with the cameras. And getting your edit started takes a little work but this seems to be improving with HDV.

JVC has created a very, very good camera for the price, nothing really comes close. Apple has created a very, very good production system for the price. The fact is the price difference for the next step up in HD quality shows we are in compromised territory. That we can produce such quality at this price level is worth working thru the hardships.

Or I'm just crazy.


No in my book that is 100% dead on and I agree with it.

In our post house we never do capture now (though it would be nice if it did work, but its not a deal breaker as we log and capture on all projects....its just the way we do it)

Now Tim, how bout that compatability info you talked about for fcp 5.1.2 and the "A" cameras needing a further update?

And can you explain again about genlocking a br-hd50u?
I've got one coming in tommorow and I need the picture locked properly.