Hey guys,
I'm really trying to figure out which cam I should pick up next (which will be soon), but I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if the V1 is the right choice, or if I should jump w/ the bigger brother of the Z1. I would definitely like the 24p that is offered by the V1, but what are some benefits of the Z1 that the V1 will not have? Also, will it be true 1080p when shot in 24p/30p mode i.e. when imported in FCP we would need a new mode to handle 1080p, or will we still be working in a 1080i workspace? I read it's wrapped in a 1080i container, what issues will this pose when editing?

Thanks everyone.

i dislike interlace .. so any camera that can shoot progressive would be my choice over as interlace camera .... fine with me if they wrap 24/30p into interlace thing .. for 24p remove pull down ... 30p edit normal -change NLE prefs to 30p ( 29.97) progressive ...

According to the lux ratings, the Z1 will have better lowlight performance, though that can only be determined by actually comparing the two in December, when the v1 comes out. Or by comparing the fx7 if that comes out earlier.

According to the lux ratings, the Z1 will have better lowlight performance, though that can only be determined by actually comparing the two in December, when the v1 comes out. Or by comparing the fx7 if that comes out earlier.Videoaktiv.de have already done this i believe.

Article is out on the web, and a more full article is out in print by that German magazine.

THe conclusion is that the FX7 performs comparably with the FX1. Some differences, yes, and the low light isn't quite as good, but more or less pretty similar, with the advantages of a smaller and lighter machine.

Test the camera when it comes out at a dealer (a reputable one) and see how it feels, etc.

heath

I agree totally with Heath. I would add that it's not just about which camera is better but which one is better for your and your clients' situations and needs. Which one is better in your post and distribution workflow.

Having said all that, and as an FX-1 owner, (couldn't afford the Z-1), I would nonetheless love to be able to afford the opportunity of being able to choose between the two cameras. Have fun evaluating!

I don't own a camera anymore, but I use the Z1 and DVX100a daily, and this camera has me excited. It's like a combo of the two, which is what I've been hoping for, since you can do a lot of similar things as both cameras. This is truly what I've been hoping for in a camera, and didn't get it in the HVX200 (sorry, HVX fans, and yes, I've used it--for a month straight) or the HD100 (used it several times).

heath

I am also considering both the Z1 and the V1. I do believe that the V1 is going to be an extraordinary camera, but the Z1 is also a very good camera. And from what I understand, the Z1 will remain in production... and will be priced above the V1. If the V1 is cheaper, why would you want to buy a Z1 for a higher price? So something still tells me that the Z1 will hold its ground.

And I still do not understand if the V1 has native 24p or that it uses in-camera interlacing and thus achieves 24p through a in-camera trick?

I hope someone can answer my question. Douglas Spotted Eagle might be able to, as I know he has a lot of experience with the Z1 camera.

Well the Z1 still has the option of switching between PAL and NTSC. This alone is a great feature not found on many other cameras in this price range. The V1 will not have this option which may be worth the extra cost for those who really need a universal HDV camera for any world market.

If you already have a Z1 and shoot mostly interlaced video for events such as weddings there may also be little reason to get the V1 since you may never even use any of the progressive modes. You have to ask yourself if you will even ever use progressive video at all because a lot of people never will.

With that said I do think the V1 will be a great camera and is yet another sign that HDV is here to stay as a serious format.

One thing you do have to think about is that with recent comparisons between all the current cameras the conclusion of many of the testers was that for the most part all HDV cameras were fairly equal. Some did some things better while others filled other gaps. There is no such thing as the perfect sub $10,000.00 HD camera. Each camera does fit certain people better than others and I would have to think the V1 will be the same. Some people will love it and some will think other cameras are better.

To me the different HDV cameras are more like film stocks. They are all 35mm film but they all have a different look be it either more grain, softer or a different tone and color value. Some people prefer some film stocks over others just like some people prefer a certain HDV camera look to others. The was true with DV cameras. The XL1 and VX1000 had different looks but at the end of the day they both both shot DV at 720x480 pixels and it all came down to which camera tickled you the right way.

You need to really get a feel for each camera by looking at it and deciding which one touches you the right way to fit your personality. Everybody has a different view of what looks good to them so you cannot really take a few peoples word for fact on if you will like the camera or not. I realize it may be hard and sometimes impossible to exame every HDV camera out there but thats is why we all look at samples and no have great people on here to do camera shoot outs like the one done in Texas. For the first time ever we have been able to look at each camera in similar settings and figure out which one works best for us without any tech crap. Sadly they may have to do the test all over again with all the new cameras coming out this year.

Thomas, thanks a lot for you helpful answer. First of all, I have missed the whole Texas shoot-out thing. Where can I find the test footage so I can compare the cameras included in that test.

I am planning to shoot both documentaries and short films. In the meantime, I want to make some money as a wedding/party videographer. But at the end, my goals to become a famous film/documentary maker. But by the time I arrive there, many generations of cameras will have passed.

For now, I only want a camera that enables me to develop my skills in a convenient way, with all possible manual controls. So I want to buy a package (camera, wide-angle, batteries, videolight) and go for it. Both the V1, Z1 and XH-A1 look very promising and from my limited knowledge, will enable me to develop my skills and qualities. But still, I have to choose one of those three cameras and that's where I need some help.

I will probarbly go to a store and have some hands-on experience, but I will not be able to really compared them with my limited knowledge. I will leave that to the experts. As I explained above, I will start with documentaries. I have three documentaries planned at this moment. When I master the camera I buy, I want to start with parties and weddings.

I hope you can help me a bit more after reading this explanation.

Texas HD Roundup data DVD sets are coming. They're just late, like everything else.

They will sell the results on a DVD? Or how do I see this?

I bought the Z1 last June after considering many alternatives. Among the reasons for the choice were the good low light performance compared to other HD cams in this price range, the assortment of features, the prior skill I had built up with Sony's earlier cams like the PD150, and the fact that over 50,000 Z1s were in use.

The V1 and its consumer brother Fx7 look pretty good on paper, but I have no regret about going Z1. It is done well for many users, and I am working with the goal of making the best possible footage for my clients. Somehow, I am not enamored with the 24p thing in that regard.

I will be in the market for a second HDV camera and may go for the V1 or Fx7 once I see how the initial units have done and the bugs are worked out.

The V1 seems pretty cool so far. I'm going to be checking it out more soon.

heath

An official short list from Sony of the differences between V1 and Z1 (its for the European version but I think the only difference from the American version is 24p instead of 25p)
..........................................V1........................Z1

vertical resolution..................800 lines.................650 lines
min illumination......................4 lux......................3 lux
focal length..........................37.04-748...............32.5-390
progressive scan...................25p(1080 lines)........cineframe(540 lines)
LCD....................................16:9 211K................16:9 250k
60/50 switchable...................No......................... Yes
camera profile.......................Yes.........................No
smooth slow rec....................Yes.........................No
color correction.....................No..........................Yes
still pic................................1.2Mpixels.................No
rec time NP-F970..................8 hoursv...................6.5 hours
weight................................1.5Kg.......................2Kg
Price..................................4600 Euros................5500 Euros

My addition: greater DoF for V1 over the Z1 (due to smaller chip size).

Hope this helps.

We're shooting some stuff with the V1 while we make my film 9:04 AM (www.904am.com) and thus far, it's pretty cool. No S video input/output, though...

heath

No s-video output at all, or just the supplied A/V cable without an s-video? With HC1, for instance, the supplied A/V does not contain s-video, but it is actually output and you can get it using the A/V cable version as per the A1... So, did you check it?

No s-video output at all, or just the supplied A/V cable without an s-video? With HC1, for instance, the supplied A/V does not contain s-video, but it is actually output and you can get it using the A/V cable version as per the A1... So, did you check it?


I believe if this is the case, it will work with S-Video perfectly fine. It's just a matter of wiring and should work if you have the s-video cables.

No S video output. Having said that, it's a great camera so far!

hwm

color correction.....................No..........................Yes

What does that mean in relation to the Z1? No color correction?

No S video output. Having said that, it's a great camera so far!

hwm
I think you're wrong:
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV1080/HVR-V1U/spec.html

A/V OUT jack, 10-pin connector
Composite video: 1 Vp-p, 75Ω unbalanced, sync negative
Y: 1 Vp-p, 75Ω unbalanced
C: 0.286 Vp-p, 75Ω unbalanced
Audio: 327 mV input impedance more than 47 kΩ, output impedance less than 2.2 kΩ

Clearly, the Y/C signals are there; so it's just a question of the right cable (the one with s-video is needed)

But who cares about S-video ?
Anyhow, you are going to read the stream from the tape ( or through some Firewire) and edit it.
For Direct viewing, HDMI/DVI and YUV are much netter .. SO if it has one S-Video it should never be used...

Could we go back to the original question of this thread ???

The originnal question, Is the V1 worth it over the Z1?

I'd say if you don't already own a Z1 and you want 24p more than 1/3" chips, then the V1 might be a better deal because it's significantlly cheaper. But if you already have a Z1, you can use Nattress' effects of DVFilmmaker to get to 24p when you edit. If I were going to buy a camera today and both were avaialble, I would definitely consider the V1.

I would buy the V1 over the Z1.

I think you're wrong:
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV1080/HVR-V1U/spec.html

A/V OUT jack, 10-pin connector
Composite video: 1 Vp-p, 75? unbalanced, sync negative
Y: 1 Vp-p, 75? unbalanced
C: 0.286 Vp-p, 75? unbalanced
Audio: 327 mV input impedance more than 47 k?, output impedance less than 2.2 k?

Clearly, the Y/C signals are there; so it's just a question of the right cable (the one with s-video is needed)
Let me look at the camera...Nope. BUT, this is a prototype. Composite is A/V and RCA.

heath

This seems to be the latest fad in Sony cameras. In fact, I just bought a 10 pin a/v cable today for my HC3. It provides BOTH s-video and composite video as well as two rca audio plugs. These cables run between $40 and $70 depending on length (1.5 m and 3 m). So it sounds like you can access s-video from the V1.

Hmm, interesting. Maybe that's how we'll connect it to S.

hwm

Getting back to the topic at hand...here's a still of some Z1 footage from my film (www.904am.com), color corrected and at 1/2 res (and 23.98 fps):

http://www.904am.com/photos.php?pic=23

I think the Z1 is still a great, great camera. I'll have more thoughts on the V1 in a few days. So far, small things leading up to something cool while we're shooting the movie.

heath

Thanks Heath! It is really cool that someone is shooting with the camera. And not just sample footage, but test it for movie production in the middle of a production. That will be a good test for the camera.

Thanks Heath! It is really cool that someone is shooting with the camera. And not just sample footage, but test it for movie production in the middle of a production. That will be a good test for the camera.
Oh yeah, that's why we're doing it. I'm VERY excited about this camera. It's smaller than the Z1, but still cool.

For the record, I love the Z1, DVX100a/b and in the higher-end realm, the F900 from Sony. Those are the cameras that have been good to me.

heath

If you need a camera now, get what's best. Personally, out of all the HDV cameras (and I've used all except the Canon A1/G1), the Z1 is the best for my hard-earned money.

heath

I won't need it now, but I will need it soon. The Canon XH-A1 is a nice camera and it is also the cheapest of the bunch. It is over a 1000 EURO cheaper then the Z1 and like 800 EURO cheaper then the V1. So from that money, I can buy a lot of accessoires. Furthermore, the footage of the G1 on these boards really impressed me. There maybe was little too much CA in some shots, but every single camera has it's pro's and con's. And I think with the CA, once you start working with the camera, you will learn how to minimize it by choosing angles, focal length etcetera.

The V1 looks really powerful, but the ergonomics are not good in my opinion. The LCD screen blocks many buttons from easy access, and overall speaking, the Canon XH-A1/G1 have more mechanical controls on the outside. I also like the 72mm filter size better then the 62mm of the V1, as well as the XH-A1 being 6mm wider. That said, the V1 has a nice viewfinder and LCD screen. And I always enjoyed using Sony electronics.

Let's see if more V1 footage arrives for a better judgment. If Canon XH-A1 review turn out negative, I might still cancel my pre-order.

I'd test the V1 and the Canons before buying them, that's just smart.

heath

The Sony is not out untill December. If the Canon's good, I will buy it. If I was Sony, would make sure there is a terabyte of sample footage on the internet before the Canon's arrive. Just my thoughts.

Z1 vs V1? V1 is smaller, lighter and cheaper, yet its images are reportedly as good as, or better than, those from Z1. Also, less "flare" from sunsets, street lights, etc. and greater exposure latitude reported due to CMOS chips, and HDMI output vs analogue componant. These are not sufficient reasons for most Z1 owners to trade-in, but why would anyone buy a new Z1 now? If the V1 is not quite good enough, maybe wait to see if/when a Z1 Mk2 is launched?

Much more interesting: is the V1 worth the extra price compared to the Canon XH-A1? And is the XH-A1 worth the extra cash compared to the FX7? Until someone gets their hands on production versions of each, I wouldn't go any further...

BTW, everyone's talking about the V1, but not the FX7. Is it just the lack of balanced mic inputs or is there something else that "cripples" the FX7 and makes the V1 worth $1000 extra? I'd have thought that FX7 + Rode VideoMic or BeechTek box and a balanced mic would be a VERY attractive proposition. What can't you do with the FX7. (If it's only 24p that's missing, then that's not going to worry me ;-) - PAL 1080i50 will be perfect for steam trains!)

The Sony is not out untill December. If the Canon's good, I will buy it. If I was Sony, would make sure there is a terabyte of sample footage on the internet before the Canon's arrive. Just my thoughts.

I don't think Sony is worried about Canon selling some units. The FX7 will be selling -- and it's going to sell a bunch because many could care less about 24p and see no reason for XLR jacks. The VX1000 had no XLR and with wireless mics -- there's no real reason for them. The built-in FX7 mic is a new design.

Far better to take the time to get the V1 perfect.

Agreed. Sony has nothing to fear from Canon (or vice versa for that matter). As for a Terabyte of sample footage on the internet... not on this site. I draw the line at Gigabytes.

Floris, let's keep this discussion on topic, please... the subject is the Sony V1 compared to the Sony Z1. Thanks in advance,

PAL 1080i50 will be perfect for steam trains!)

LOL! Which, funnily enough is one of the things I shot with the V1!

Urrr, not that I'm admitting that I like steam trains or anything. There just happened to be one in the immediate vicinity....

why would anyone buy a new Z1 now?

I bought my Z1 because I needed to shoot in both PAL and NTSC. Faced with the same choice today I'd have to choose another Z1 since the V1 won't meet that requirement. But I agree the V1 is a compelling choice with a lot of nice features I wish my Z1 had.

It is over a 1000 EURO cheaper then the Z1 and like 800 EURO cheaper then the V1. So from that money, I can buy a lot of accessoires.This is simply not correct.
Please see my recent post where i provided concrete prices in Europe (you're in NL) for these cams (below):

So from that you can see the difference at time i posted, and using prices i got is Eur380 which is a long way from your stated Eur800:

Your quoted prices are a bit off some of the current best prices in Europe.

You can 100% get all of the above for the following prices (Europe dealer, expressed in Euro's at current rates) :
- Canon XH-A1 Eur4000
- Canon XL-H1 Eur8020
- Sony HVR-Z1E Eur4880
- Sony HVR-V1E Eur4380
- Panasonic HVX-200 Eur5750
(taxes included.)
- and even those may not be the best rates in Europe. But they are all concrete prices, at prevailing x-rates, orderable now.

I'd test the V1 and the Canons before buying them, that's just smart.

heathTotally agree. Buying something relatively expensive like this it just makes complete sense to "road-test" it as much as possible, even if thats limited to handling it in a store. I wouldnt buy a car i hadn't even sat in, and i certainly wouldnt buy a camcorder i hadn't at least got my hands on.

And in response to another post, the V1 is, apparently, due out in early November in Europe, and not December.
This info i have got from someone who has ordered one and that is the timeframe that they are being told the camera will arrive and be available for him to pick up.
Maybe the timeframe has changed or that info wasn't accurate, but thats what i've heard and i haven't heard about it changing.

Fx7 is shipping AFTER the V1, which is the other way round from the way Sony usually do it.

The official price for the Sony V1 is 4600 Euro, the official price for the XH-A1 is 4000 Euro. The price you list for the Sony is a streetprice. The price of the A1 is a MSRP. Both will drop, so the XH-A1 will be cheaper. But as Chris already mentioned, this is not the right discussion for that.

And I still do not get it when people are comparing the V1 with the Z1. Totally different category. The Z1 will be replaced by a Z2. And Sony has some gaps to fill up. They need a higher higher end model. With all the professional jacks, outputs and things like 24p and maybe interchangeable lenses. If I had a choice I would wait for the Z2, but I do not have the time to wait that long.

Like I mentioned before, the V1 is still an option. But there is almost no sample footage available. I just hope Sony will allow people with prototypes to post the footage they shoot with them. I do of course appreciate it when Sony is correcting the shortcomings/errors that people discover. It would be great if they release a flawless camera in December.

The higher end 24p Sony already exists, the XDCAM HD cameras, the F-330 and F350. If they made a 1/3" version it would probably be well over $10K. Sounds to me like you're wishing for the JVC 110.

I do of course appreciate it when Sony is correcting the shortcomings/errors that people discover. It would be great if they release a flawless camera in December.I'm afraid that the Flawless Camera doesn't exist, and it won't ever exist, from any manufacturer.

And the production models will have been boxed up and shipped out prob some time ago. Sea freight from Japan to Europe takes weeks and weeks, so the production models will be in transit now and are what they are - there's no time for any further tweaking to initial production run.
Mild Firmware updates & bug-fixes happen all the time, but these are obviously only applied to models yet to roll off the production line and models that go into a Sony repair shop.

And on the price thing, i agree not on-topic, but my final point on that is street-prices are what people actually pay and therefore this is oibviously the most relevant price-gap. The MSRP could be Eur50,000 and it doesn't matter one bit. What matters is the price you pay and the gap is around Eur400 and not anywhere near Eur800.