On the Sony V1 page, in the intro it says shoot in progessive and then edit using standard HDV equipment. What does that mean? When you shoot 24p progessive can you edit it with iMovie?. Final Cut Express?

Do you need Final Cut Pro to edit with this camera?

On the Sony site it says it shoots 24p but is recorded to tape as 60i (sort of a reverse pulldown as I understand) so you can edit it. However, it also said that several NLEs were working on capturing back to 24p and it would edit in that. They have a whole workflow laid out on their site.

so at some point you will be able to shoot 24p capture in 24p and edit in 24p? When the new FCP come out?

On the Sony V1 page, in the intro it says shoot in progessive and then edit using standard HDV equipment. What does that mean? When you shoot 24p progessive can you edit it with iMovie?. Final Cut Express?

Do you need Final Cut Pro to edit with this camera?

They are correct -- you can edit Sony 24p in any 60i equipment -- that's the nature of pulldown. It can, but need not be, removed.

so at some point you will be able to shoot 24p capture in 24p and edit in 24p? When the new FCP come out?

You don't *need* to remove the pulldown, but virtually everyone *wants* to remove the pulldown. You can edit the 60i in FCP now, but Apple will have pulldown removal out soon, or so they say.
24p footage edits best as 24p footage, and 24p put to DVD as 24p allows for up to 25% more efficient storage, meaning you can have a higher bitrate for the same length movie as you would be able to enjoy in a 60i output. If the DVD player can't play out the 24p media as 24p, it inserts the pulldown at the player, just like a standard Hollywood release.
In another thread in this same category, Barry Green enumerates the many reasons why you'd *prefer* editing 24p footage as 24p, even though it's quite convenient to transport it as 60i.
All that said, I'm not a huge proponent of 24p; I'd submit that 24p cadence is responsible for far more crummy-looking films have been made due to lack of understanding of shooting 24p than video projects that have used 60i as their acquisition format. Well shot 24p is great for a lot of projects, including features, but it's not always the best format for high motion.

What is best and why, Douglas? Frankly, I am surprised how well 60i renders to 24p out of Vegas. I'd take a short answer. I already bought the new book but all this is changing so fast. Also, I can't locate the Barry Green post. The name heading it must have changed.

I think Spot is talking about Barry's post in the 'sony unveils new 24p HDV camcorder' number 86

You don't *need* to remove the pulldown, but virtually everyone *wants* to remove the pulldown. You can edit the 60i in FCP now, but Apple will have pulldown removal out soon, or so they say.
24p footage edits best as 24p footage, and 24p put to DVD as 24p allows for up to 25% more efficient storage, meaning you can have a higher bitrate for the same length movie as you would be able to enjoy in a 60i output. If the DVD player can't play out the 24p media as 24p, it inserts the pulldown at the player, just like a standard Hollywood release.
In another thread in this same category, Barry Green enumerates the many reasons why you'd *prefer* editing 24p footage as 24p, even though it's quite convenient to transport it as 60i.
All that said, I'm not a huge proponent of 24p; I'd submit that 24p cadence is responsible for far more crummy-looking films have been made due to lack of understanding of shooting 24p than video projects that have used 60i as their acquisition format. Well shot 24p is great for a lot of projects, including features, but it's not always the best format for high motion.
thanks. But it was smart to put 24p on the V1.

but can you record in 24p then edit in a 60i timeline in something like final cut express HD? Or does it have to be FCP?

Any editing application will work great with the 60i. Even FCP Express, iMovie, whatever you want. Sony Vegas, IMO, manages 24p better than anything there is, and also does the most respectable conversion to 24p than any NLE I've ever seen. There are some specialty softwares that do a good conversion as well.

Will there be an update for those of us with G5 Final Cut Pros? Or is my 9 month old computer already out of date?

Since FCP is now universal the updates count for both ppc and intel machines. No need to worry. The update is free through software update and should be up in a month.

How long are any of us "in date" now?

How long are any of us "in date" now?
Why Jerry... you're a philosopher...

Thanks Evan:) One less thing to worry 'bout...

What about Cineform? They have been able to pull out the 24p from Cineframe24 for a long time now. As far as I know Cineframe24 uses the same type of pulldown sitting inside of a 60i stream.

I can see no reason why Premiere Pro users who use Cineform wouldn't be able to handle the 24p footage right away or at least with a small update which should come very fast.

CineForm works great for removing the pulldown on capture or conversion, whether for Vegas or Premiere Pro.

A lot of things will pull down but Sony has a way of taking the original 24p signal and turning it into 60i. I think the idea is to do an exact reversal of that process to get back to the original and that means doing it the way Sony prescribes and I imagine Sony has given that to all the NLEs out there so they can handle the footage the best way. I would think that Vegas would be one of the best at handling it. (But then I sometimes wonder if one division at Sony knows what the others are doing.)

Could it be that the new Sony camera is a different system? I just read this:

"Internally the V1 processes imagery at a torrential 1080x1920, 4:2:2, 60p. Although there’s no way to capture this much information via HDV — which is reduced in pixel count, chrominance sampling, and field output to 1080x1440, 4:1:0, and 60i before heavy compression — the V1 presents an intriguing new possibility: an HDMI connector for uncompressed HD output (1080x1440). HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) is basically an upgrading of DVI with embedded digital rights management. Ostensibly it’s there for digital monitoring, but think of HDMI as a poor man’s HD-SDI. Blackmagic Design certainly does. The company has just announced Intensity, its (and the world’s) first HDMI editing card, for all of $249. All you have to do is figure out how to capture the resulting flood of data. But hey, the equivalent of HD-SDI from a 24p prosumer camcorder? What more could you ask for?

"Speaking of 24p, the V1 adds 2:3 pulldown and records the resulting segmented 24p frames to tape as 60i HDV. In restoring 24p for editing, are there compatibility issues with popular NLEs? Not as long as the 2:3 cadence is understood by the NLE, but it appears that Sony flags its 24p-to-60i cadence differently from Panasonic’s, which in turn is incompatible with JVC’s solution. (Expect a computer company named for a fruit to supply an answer to all of this mess within a matter of weeks.) Like the Z1, the V1 internally downconverts and makes a terrific DV and DVCAM camcorder."

... but it appears that Sony flags its 24p-to-60i cadence differently from Panasonic’s, which in turn is incompatible with JVC’s solution.

Of course JVC 24p is different as it doesn't use pulldown at all. It uses Repeat flags which are part of the MPEG-2 spec.

Canon doesn't use pulldown either -- as the HDV spec was amended to support 1080/24p.

Panasonic most likely uses whatever it used on the DVX100 for 24P and 24PA. If Sony uses Industry Standard 2:3 then, of course, it will be different that Panasonic 24PA which is 2:3:3:2. That's because 24PA is a Panasonic cadence.

So when you claim Sony is different than Panasonic it means nothing unless you specify WHICH Panasonic cadence.

I've heard nothing that says Sony isn't using Industry Standard 2:3 pulldown -- so it might be useful to site your source. DSE should know.

My calculations also show that the concern about 4:2:0 and progressive is invalid. Reverse pulldown C frame gets a Cb field and a Cr field. Each is combined with another field, but that is irrelevant as all that's important is A, B, C, and D all get both Cb and Cr.

So another negative rumor put to bed.

As far as the 2 judder frames being harder to compress -- yes they should be. But the other 3 frames should be easier. Since MPEG-2 CBR maintains a GOP level bit-buffer -- I'm not sure anyone could prove one way or the other that PsF yields more or less quality than 24p.

Lastly, while DSE claims we are not near 60p and be content with 24p -- JVC is 45-days away and the Sony V1 is really ALMOST there now. The CMOS and EIP are running at 1080/60p.

Japan is now promoting "Full HD" -- and folks might just be surprised at what consumer HD camcorders are going to offer in 2007. Try this link:

http://www.national.com/JPN/news/item/0,4140,515,00.html

"HD has been surpassed with the introduction of full HD, leading you to ask whether we have been using incomplete HD all this while? Actually, full HD means 1080p HD ."

We do not know the Sony encoder cannot encode 1080/60p. Which means all Sony needs is a hard disk camcorder -- which they will in a few days. Perhaps that's what the so far unused 24Mbps AVCHD spec is for.

60p -- both 720 and 1080 are coming fast.

Lastly, while DSE claims we are not near 60p and be content with 24p -- JVC is 45-days away and the Sony V1 is really ALMOST there now. The CMOS and EIP are running at 1080/60p.
.

You will not see 1080 p60 broadcast for a long, long (sing along with as many "long's" as you'd like) time. The bandwidth doesn't exist. With PsF, it's doable, but otherwise, not. With PsF, the tools currently aren't in place.
Any persons delivering to or working with broadcasters know they move more slowly than cold tar running up hill, just like the army and just like the government.
So, even if Sony/Grass Valley/PESA/Ikegami *did* have 60p-capable switchers, the rest of the infrastructure isn't there.
Delivery of 60p on BD is quite possible, of course, once we're able to author set-top BD. This isn't as easy as so many have thought. I do have a BD burner sitting right here in my machine...If I could, I'd be churning out BD discs right now, for experimental purposes.
I guess I could use my F300, route to that device and record BD that way...;-)

So Douglas, please explain me why I would or would not want 24p. All I hear everyone talk about is 24p. So how important is it? I am planning to do documentary and short films... The Canon XH-A1 and Sony V1E are the camera's I am considering, as well as the Sony Z1E. I saw a picture with you and the Z1, so probarbly you know a lot about the camera. I just want to right gear, as I am spending like $5000 on hardware and another $ on software.

Which brings me to another point, how does Vegas differ from other NLE programs... I quickly looked at the demo and it looked quite different then lets say Adobe Production Studio or Avid Xpress Pro. As I am coming from Final Cut, and am switching to PC, I am free to choose a NLE program. Vegas is an option, but I do not have any idea what it is capable of, and how it compares.
Maybe you can help me as you are a certified trainer.

Why not download the trial version of Vegas? Get the manual. There is a lot built into Vegas that you have to buy as a plugin in Adobe. I bought Vegas after reading the forums for several months. I never saw any users stand up for their software like Vegas users do. The "software $" is low for what you get.

So Douglas, please explain me why I would or would not want 24p. All I hear everyone talk about is 24p. So how important is it? I am planning to do documentary and short films... The Canon XH-A1 and Sony V1E are the camera's I am considering, as well as the Sony Z1E. I saw a picture with you and the Z1, so probarbly you know a lot about the camera. I just want to right gear, as I am spending like $5000 on hardware and another $ on software.



24p is necessary if you want film cadence. If you only want a film "look" then 24p is discretionary. We use it on occasion; if you want to shoot 24p you need to practice your camera moves a lot. If you're shooting high action such as ball-based sports, martial arts, etc, 24p isn't suited for a lot of that kind of thing unless you're willing to up the shutter.
Most television commercials are 24p, most movies are 24p, but in broadcast, most of that 24p ends up in a 60i signal, contrary to popular belief. Only a handful of broadcasters are shipping a progressive signal, so it's a total myth that acquiring in 24p for standard HD broadcast is "better." It gets interlaced at some point or another in most cases.
24p is a tool, a functionary just like anything else. Some people are religious about having some particular filter on their camera at all times, others are seriously religious about "it has to be 24p." Both are ridiculous, IMO. They're tools. Nothing more. 24p is an overabused tool, but a good tool nonetheless.

Which brings me to another point, how does Vegas differ from other NLE programs... I quickly looked at the demo and it looked quite different then lets say Adobe Production Studio or Avid Xpress Pro. As I am coming from Final Cut, and am switching to PC, I am free to choose a NLE program. Vegas is an option, but I do not have any idea what it is capable of, and how it compares.
Maybe you can help me as you are a certified trainer.
What makes Vegas different? It's a workflow. It's a multitrack audio, video editor that also has compositing and encoding built in. It requires no hardware and runs on most any PC with incredible stability.
Outside of media management, Vegas is superior in workflow from *my* perspective. I use Vegas, FCS, Edius, and occasionally Premiere. Avid Express HD is virtually always up and running on at least one station here, but I'm not a certified trainer for Avid (yet). IMO, Avid has the best media management, but doesn't have a sound package worth looking at. Same can be said for any NLE; no NLE remotely touches Vegas on that point.
Vegas is agnostic. Mix any resolution with any framerate with any media format on the same timeline. It does very respectable conversion of interlaced to progressive, does an incredibly respectful conversion of 60i to 24p, and has reasonably good media management. But it's a tool. All of the tools out there are very similar overall in what they can do. It's the fringe features that only you as an individual can decide if it is best/necessary for you.

Thanks for you response. I will definately take a look at Vegas. Can you tell me if there is a good book, with preferably a DVD with exercises? Maybe you have even written one of those books yourselves.

About the camera, I am still not sure. It will be one of the three camea's I mentioned. Does the V1 have the same features as the Z1, like the color correction tool, gamma curves, custom buttons etcetera?

I want to get this straight. If you use the V1 and record in 24P, you then can capture using 60i software, like FCE. No need for FCP?

If so does it still have that "film look" or does something else happen?

If I can do this I can hold off on buying FCP. I will at some point but I could wait.

Maybe I'm just getting mixed up on what was said,,,thanks

I want to get this straight. If you use the V1 and record in 24P, you then can capture using 60i software, like FCE. No need for FCP?

If so does it still have that "film look" or does something else happen?


You can capture, edit, and export any V1 video with any NLE -- it's 1080/60i.

24p and 30p will have strobing and 24p will also have judder-frames. Were you to remove pulldown, the judder frames will be removed, but 24p will still have strobing.

If you feel strobing and judder makes your video have a"filmlook" and you want that look -- shoot either 24p or 30p. If you don't, just never switch on progressive.

Remember FCE only offers AIC and not native HDV editing. And, AIC and interlaced HDV don't go well together.

steve I take it you don't like 24P?

so in other camera's you record in 24p in have to edit in 24P. Or in 60i you edit in 60i. So in the V1 every setting you record in is edited in 60i?

Floris,
Two and a half years ago I was just getting into video. I stumbled on the Vegas forum over at CamcorderInfo.com while trying to figure out what to buy for editing. After I asked about a dozen questions one of the moderators said "Just buy Vegas, I promise you won't be disappointed." So I did. He was right!!

I have tinkered with Premier some since having Vegas and was soooooo glad I didn't get that. Vegas was very easy to learn and can digest about any file type or format you feed it and spit out great video. It is great for handling audio. It's a super stable application. It's not a resource hog. It runs in the .NET framework. I do .NET programming myself and have to say Vegas is a very nice piece of work. Hats off to the developers.

I'll go out on a limb here and tell you to just buy Vegas 7 + DVD. I don't think you'll be disappointed.


Thanks for you response. I will definately take a look at Vegas. Can you tell me if there is a good book, with preferably a DVD with exercises? Maybe you have even written one of those books yourselves.

About the camera, I am still not sure. It will be one of the three camea's I mentioned. Does the V1 have the same features as the Z1, like the color correction tool, gamma curves, custom buttons etcetera?

steve I take it you don't like 24P?

Japan is already introducing a new logo -- Full HD.

That means 1080/50p or 1080/60p camcorders, Bluray/HD-DVD, and 1080/50p or 1080/60p monitors. These products will arrive in 2007.

This will provide -- given a 50" to 72" flat-panel screen -- the "window into reality" that has been the goal from Day 1 of Hi-Vision. To achieve this requires both high spatial resolution and high temporal resolution.

Since this is the future of video -- and it is the look I've wanted since I first watched Hi-Vision in 1986 -- I'm not much interested in creating a video version of what film already does much better. (So I've no problem with 24fps movies.)

Right now I'm watching "Making of HD -- the Arctic" and I can't imagine wanting to see a ship in 90 knot winds in anything other than 60i, or even better, 60p.

A whole new generation is learning a new vision of "quality." Those claiming 24p gives them the look of "film quality" may be shocked to find that the audience has a whole new idea of what quality looks like.

The question that's open is -- can narrative productions be shot in anything other than 24p/25p? Because we don't know the answer -- it's important that camcorders offer the option. So I'm certainly not against 24p.

I am, however, surprised that there is so much focus on 24p when it's the least revolutionary aspect of the V1.

Thanks for you response. I will definately take a look at Vegas.

I'd strongly suggest Avid Liquid. It was designed from day 1 to edit MPEG-2 and it shows. See my series on Liquid at:

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/newsletters/

It integrates HDV, Dolby 5.1, and DVD creatation all in one application.

I can see shooting in 60i,,,,I really was just trying to understand how I can edit 24p in 60i.

so in other camera's you record in 24p you have to edit in 24P. Or in 60i you edit in 60i. So in the V1 every setting you record in is edited in 60i?

Not quite. Everything is recorded in 60i.

You may edit in 60i -- or after removing pulldown, in 24p.

this is from Sony V1 website:

'The 24p scan signals are recorded on tape as 60i signals through means of 2:3 pull-down. Similarly, a 30p scan signal is recorded as a 60i signal by dividing each frame into two fields. This allows your 24p and 30p scan footage to be played back or fed to an editing suite using the thousands of Sony HDV equipment already in use throughout the world.

Leading manufacturers are scheduled to release nonlinear editing software compatible with this 24p scan mode. These nonlinear software can detect the 2-3 sequence and remove the 2-3 properly. This way, the editor can create a 24p project, edit precisely at 24fps (23.98 progressive frames per second) throughout the process, and output the final master as'

So if I understand the V1 the 2:3 pull down happens in the camera the recorded on tape. Then it says it can be played or used on editing equipment already in use.
But then it goes on to say that manufacturers are going to release compatible software for 24p scan mode. So what will work?

"But then it goes on to say that manufacturers are going to release compatible software for 24p scan mode. So what will work?"

Both 60i and 24p should work. I believe all software will currently work with 60i. 24p may need to be implemented in some software, but I'm sure it will happen soon. The V1 footage should be ready for editing on day one. After all, Spot already showed 24p footage at vaast.com which means it can certainly be captured.

I talked to Sony. you can record 24p, 30p and both can be edited at 60i on almost anything. Now if you want to have native 24p, then you will need something that can do that. He said all he knows at the moment is Vegas but he said other will follow.

I ask about price. He said somewhere between the A1 and the Z1. B&H has $4200. But maybe that will come down some.

I also read that in maybe it was Studio mag that HBO ran a show called Bagdad ER and the guy used a early model of the V1U. It was HBO's first broadcast that was done entirely in HDV.

here is a link to some of the video from Bagdad ER

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/baghdader/index.html

As to price.... when Sony released the PD170 they decided to through in
the wide angle lens with the deal and Sony had a $300 rebate that is still
going on today...

So it'd be nice if Sony does the same thing with the V1...

I'd take one for $4000 and a free wide lens... ;-)

That should be pretty competative to the Canon offer on the A1....

They should do something to drop it right below the Canon A1.