Check out this press release, just issued today:

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/pro_audio_video/release/25017.html

"... delivers true 24P progressive scan capture, and uses three of Sony’s ClearVid CMOS Sensor™ chips combined with Sony's Enhanced Imaging Processor™ technology to provide greater sensitivity, higher resolution, lower noise and a wider dynamic range."

They called!!

I wonder how much that suggested price will go down too?

60P too.

I wonder how long before we see some footage?

Should that price say 4800.00, and not 48,000?

Jason I'm certain that's just a simple typo.I wonder how long before we see some footage?Not long -- see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=75802

Should that price say 4800.00, and not 48,000?
I checked and it said 4,800 and 1,800 for the drive.

heath

Well, I dont know what the deal is with the whole 24p to 60i to 24p deal is, but if we can get full true 24p then I might have found me a new cam!

-burk

I have to admit, I like the smaller size and lighter weight of the V1U compared to the Canon A1/G1. And now it looks like it does 60P which the Canons only do 60i. But the Canons have a better lens range and the chips are 1/3" compared to 1/4". Dang, it's going to be tough deciding between these two.

that it will be. If the suggested price drops closer to the Canon $3,999 then it will not be as hard.

Didn't the Z1 drop in price after it was first announced?

Is there any pictures of the V1U? Is it the same as the V1e?

Well, I dont know what the deal is with the whole 24p to 60i to 24p deal is, but if we can get full true 24p then I might have found me a new cam!

I don't know if this camera does a pulldown. The DVX100a, XL H1, etc., do the pulldown to 29.97.

heath

I have to admit, I like the smaller size and lighter weight of the V1U compared to the Canon A1/G1. And now it looks like it does 60P which the Canons only do 60i. But the Canons have a better lens range and the chips are 1/3" compared to 1/4". Dang, it's going to be tough deciding between these two.
I am curious if 1/4 inch CMOS is similar, better, worse than 1/3 inch CCD.

heath

Jsut about everything that has been asked for... except better low light capability.... Is a 1/3 cmos in the future ?

We should get Spot in here for some scientific explanations!

heath

Is there any pictures of the V1U? Is it the same as the V1e?Externally it's the same as the V1E except for the markings of course.

if the V1 does what they say it will do,,,,wow!

Chris:

1. Any "in camera flip" for the 35mm adapter people ?

2. This is a new lens right ? How do you feel about its image quality ?

60p! Did I read that right? I figured 30p would be the highest. How in the heck would you ever get 60p out of the camera though? Will Intensity capture 60p through HDMI?

Could Sony have meant 60i, not sure how they could have messed up their own press release though. Perhaps it can capture HDV in 60p to that hard drive unit.

whoa...is this THE ONE?? dang, and here i thought the canon XH series was gonna be THE ONE...with the trade-in program, this is gonna be hard to resist! canon, quick, give me a reason!

how great to have these sorts of "problems" in choosing from such magnificent cameras at these prices...

60p should mean some great slow motion shots.

Check this Sony Site out for the particulars:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV1080/HVR-V1U/index.html

Don't see them touting 60p.... could have been error in release ??

I checked and it said 4,800 and 1,800 for the drive.

heath

I'd say MSRP of V1 in USA will come in about US$4700-4800,
pretty close.. :-)

I think the camera does 24p, 30p and 60i because this site

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV1080/HVR-V1U/index.html

isn't saying 60p.

heath

Here's a quote from the site Heath mentioned:
"the HVR-V1U supports 24p (progressive) scan, the frame rate of film and 30p (progressive) scan modes, in addition to typical 60i"

I think the camera does 24p, 30p and 60i because this site

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV1080/HVR-V1U/index.html

isn't saying 60p.

heathYes i'd echo Heath on that.
Quote from the above site:
"Processor, the HVR-V1U supports 24p (progressive) scan, the frame rate of film and 30p (progressive) scan modes, in addition to typical 60i."
So it's 60i, nmot 60p, and as such the Sony press release here :
http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_room/b2b/broadcast_production/pro_audio_video/release/25017.html

appears to have been badly worded, as it strongly implies 60p :

"Sensor system natively captures progressive images at 24P, 30P or 60P, while maintaining full 1080 HDV resolution"

Bit unusual for a Sony press release to get it wrong on basic stuff like that.

Spec Sheet is here:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV1080/HVR-V1U/spec.html

60p! Did I read that right?
No, what you read was that it scans the chip at 60p. It doesn't have any sort of 60p output or display capability. Internal processing is done at 60p (same as Panasonic and JVC, not sure about Canon). But when it comes time to output it splits that 60p into fields and converts it to 60i. There is no 60p recording, output, or display.

60p should mean some great slow motion shots.
Not on this cam because it can't record it. But what it can do is "smooth slow" record mode, which delivers 240 fields of info, which would make for a 4:1 slow motion effect. It'll be interesting to see how that actually looks; the technology is available in the HC3 as well but involves a significant drop in resolution. I don't know if the Sony V1U employs the same technique or if it's advanced somehow.

I don't know if the Sony V1U employs the same technique or if it's advanced somehow.They increased the on-board fast-RAM buffer for this mode (relative to HC3 which i think had 32Mb of fast-RAM for this mode) so that allows them to get 6secs of realtime (=24secs of playback time). I too am interested on the res achievable in that mode, but i do rather suspect it will be similar res to the HC3 which is really fairly low (below DV res i think).
shutter-speed range in SmoothSlowRecord mode is 1/250th - 1/2000th, not-user-selectable (unless as you say, they've tweaked that mode siginificantly).

All the documentation on that Sony page seems to indicate that everything is processed at 4:2:2 using EIP, is this correct?

Or will it still be recorded to tape at 4:2:0 (DV limitation). And furthermore, has it been confirmed whether or not we can bypass that DV limitation by recording straight to the HDD?

All the documentation on that Sony page seems to indicate that everything is processed at 4:2:2 using EIP, is this correct?
The 960x1080 chips are scanned into a 1920x1080x4:2:2 matrix. But the only place that 1920x1080 signal exists is internally. There's no way to get that out.

Or will it still be recorded to tape at 4:2:0 (DV limitation).
Well, when you say "DV" limitation, you're talking about standard-def, and in standard-def this unit will be 4:1:1 (because it's NTSC DV/DVCAM). In high-def mode the HDV format is only available in 4:2:0. So all recordings on tape or through the firewire port will be 1440x1080x4:2:0.

And furthermore, has it been confirmed whether or not we can bypass that DV limitation by recording straight to the HDD?
Hard disk will also be MPEG-2 compression at 4:2:0. (and presumably standard-def at 4:1:1)

According to the chart on their website (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/HDV1080/HVR-V1U/images/dv_EipSignal2.gif) the signals start on the chips and go through a "Sony original interpolation Process" to become 1920x1080. Then, before any output occurs, it goes through a "Resolution Conversion Process" to become 1440x1080. Now here's where things get interesting: it shows that the resolution conversion process yields 1440x1080ix4:2:2, which goes to the component outputs and to the HDV compression engine. HDV will process that into 4:2:0 for recording on tape or onto hard disk, but what about that "component output"... on analog component output it's not any different than any other camera out there, but what about HDMI? Is that going to be an actual digital 1440x1080x4:2:2 digital HDMI signal? If so, will someone develop (or has someone already developed?) an HDMI->HDSDI converter box to allow uncompressed 4:2:2 digital HD recording?

will someone develop (or has someone already developed?) an HDMI->HDSDI converter box to allow uncompressed 4:2:2 digital HD recording?Convergent Design's HD-Connect MI

http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_HDConnectMI.htm

I watched some footage shot on an HVX200 at 1280x720 60p and I have to say it was quite amazing. It was similar to 60i video in the smoothness but it looked different. There was just some other-worldly quality about it, like looking out a window almost. I have to say I liked the way it looked more than 24p. This is all on a computer display so it was full progressive all the way. It was beautiful.

As an experiment I rendered one of my 3D animations at 60p and played it back and it had the same quality, really amazing. So my point is, good for slow mo yes, but will we ever have content delivered to us in 60p? The look of it is just nice IMHO. It looks real without having that live TV feel.

but will we ever have content delivered to us in 60p?
Turn on your HDTV and watch any HD broadcast on Fox, ESPN, or ABC. They're already broadcasting 720/60p. The Super Bowl, "24", "Prison Break", "American Idol", etc.

As for 1080/60p, that's what everyone has on their radar but there are no 1080/60p broadcast/delivery/transmission systems in place yet.

Definitely a step in the right direction but I will wait for bigger chips. I bet Sony has a cam a step above this coming in the next year.



ash =o)

I'm gonna play Bill Maher here and cite The Rule:

The Rule: It shall be illegal, immoral and otherwise unacceptable for anybody to buy this V1U and then get on the boards and whine about "how do I get shallow depth of field...."

Especially when all they gotta do is zoom into the telephoto end for super-shallow D.O.F.

Definitely a step in the right direction but I will wait for bigger chips.

I wouldn't sell this camera short until you have a chance to see it in person and watch the footage on a high quality screen. We watched footage today on a big 20+ foot screen and it really blew me away. In terms of image quality and picture controls, I'd gladly trade my Z1. I really don't think you'd know that this camera had 1/4" chips unless someone told you.

As Boyd said...and as I said, and as John Alpert said, and everyone else that has seen this cam...bigger ain't always better. Shallow DOF isn't hard with this cam at all, and comparing the 1/4 to 1/3...doesn't mean much overall.
Look, here's the bottom line...you can pull slide rules, calculators, opinions, and past history all you want. As far as I'm concerned, all that does is demonstrate that you're not truly in this biz for the purpose of creativity but more for being a measurebator. Wait til you see the cam before passing judgement.
For the first time in my life last year, I bought a camcorder based on marketing hype and opinion. I waited a long time for it, and was very excited to receive it. I was terribly disappointed. So rather than worry about whether the marketing hype is good, whether the feature set is bad, whether this, that, or the other thing is good, just wait n' see. Don't get caught up in the hype or excitement from the perspective of listening to me, I'm obviously in love with it, as is everyone who sees it. But that doesn't mean it's the right camera for you.
Frankly, I thought the BEST part of the day was seeing a very true to life depiction of AVCHD vs MPEG 2, and why you won't see useful AVC in any format in any professional camcorder for some time to come. The demonstration media shown was compelling, and explained a lot about why too many folks get caught up in the math and specs and not enough time looking at "real world" pictures and uses.

Boyd, it was great meeting you in person!! Same to you, Michael, it was great to meet you both. I'm tweaked tho...I didn't get a cool jacket and I think you guys did! ;-)
Chris, you missed one hell of a presentation.

... I'd gladly trade my Z1 ... Whoa! That says a lot right there. I'd say more, but Boyd threatened to put me to work if I ever visited Philadelphia :-)

Great to finally meet in person Spot! I shot still photos of those format comparison examples from Hugo's presentation and have sent them to Chris. I'm sure you'll find them online here when Chris gets a chance to catch up with things.

Chris, you missed one hell of a presentation.Yeah, by the time my wife and I finally stumbled into bed around 4am Monday morning after an all-night drive back from a thoroughly rigorous and exhausting horse show last weekend, I was thinking "this is why I had to cancel that trip to New York." We spent yesterday and most of today entirely in recuperation. Really sorry I missed this thing... I need to clone myself!

I'm sure you'll find them online here when Chris gets a chance to catch up with things.Sorry y'all... it'll have to wait for the morning (GMT -6).

...I didn't get a cool jacket and I think you guys did! ;-) Chris, you missed one hell of a presentation.Yeah it was great to meet both of you Boyd and Spot, too bad about the jacket, but there's a jacket on the way for you Chris as soon as you send me your mailing address. And yes that was one hell of a presentation, the MPEG-2 vs AVCHD portion was quite an eye opener. I think Boyd got a lot of it with his digital camera - in between wishing his Z1 could do that :-) The presentation convinced me we probably won't see AVCHD in professional applications for a long while, if ever.

Whoa! That says a lot right there.

I base that comment largely on the landscape examples they were running because I love shooting that kind of thing. The PDX-10 was a good start for me several years ago with its high quality widescreen mode, but the Z1 was a big step forward. Nevertheless I always wish I could see more detail in complex scenes with trees and fields. The stuff I saw today sure looked like it was a major improvement to me. I think this camera should also be very attractive to wildlife photographers with the 20x zoom and 1.5x digital extender.

To follow up on what Spot said. In 2003, I bought the first "mini-hd" camera and was thoroughly disappointed. I recently sold it and am happy for that!

Test a camera before passing judgment. A room full of blogging pundits don't know what's right for YOU.

heath

the 20x zoom and 1.5x digital extender.I remember, Boyd and I both jumped when Spot used the 1.5 digital zoom to zoom into one of the para-glider's boots, the image is amazingly clean, and looks very usable. That's probably the first time I've ever seen a digital zoom that I felt was good enough to be truly usable.

Frankly, I thought the BEST part of the day was seeing a very true to life depiction of AVCHD vs MPEG 2, and why you won't see useful AVC in any format in any professional camcorder for some time to come.

Hi there!

Excuse my ignorance but would it be possible to elaborate a bit more on this?
Which presentation was this, who delivered it and what were the reasons presented that indicate AVCHD will not make it in the next foreseeable future into the professional camcorder market?

My apologies if this is common knowledge to the other members of this thread but I am rather new in this forum (this is only my 2nd post!) and I was waiting until now for someone (probably Panasonic, given the discontinuation of DVC30) to come up with a small AVCHD camcorder recording long hours in solid media, as this suits better my needs.

Thanks a lot,

Thanasis

Sorry if we were being obtuse.

The portion of the presentation that I thought was very interesting was made by Hugo Giaggioni, Sony's Chief Technical Officer. Boyd took several pictures of the slides, so you should be able to see some of it.

It was very interesting because he explained how the V1 was implemented, why they chose certain technologies, and what we can probably expect down the road.

His main reasons for using MPEG-2 are:
- it is a mature technology across the entire workflow, which means they can provide quality solutions from acquisition to delivery at every stage
- it currently provides better quality at a lower date rate
- specifically, it holds up better than AVCHD over several generations of compression/decompression, he showed us a simple comparision of a difficult image over 5 generations, MPEG-2 held up decently, the AVCHD image was completely degraded.

He did say that he thinks AVCHD will mature much more quickly and that we should see it in the future. But from where I was sitting, it looked like it didn't really deliver at certain points of the workflow, and if it ever did, it would be competing with other maturing technologies.

I think that AVCHD is targeted at a consumer market where editing at most is likely to be cutting out scenes ( shots of feet!!!) and adding titles. I for one would like to know how AVCHD stands up to this use. The SR1 at 15mbs might do very well with this scenario, even as a B camera!!!
Ron Evans

Hi Michael!

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply!

Sorry if we were being obtuse.

Not at all! If you were, this must be the most knowledgeable and generous group of "obtuse" people I have ever seen :) (by the way, where did you get this word? I had to look it up in the dictionary to know what it means! English is not my first language... )


Very interesting the points Mr Giaggioni made. It is quite surprising that these are coming from Sony though, don't you think? I mean, they are the ones who, along with Panasonic, have defined AVCHD as the next "universal" HD format. Granted, they called it a "consumer" format, but so was DV and HDV called, when they were first introduced, no? One would expect Sony would be a bit more cautious and not exposing the current flaws of this format in the most official way...

But from where I was sitting, it looked like it didn't really deliver at certain points of the workflow, and if it ever did, it would be competing with other maturing technologies.

I am aware of the issues with AVCHD's great editing difficulties for the time being. Is this what you meant by "certain points of the workflow"? Or is there something else as well?


Given the AVCHD quality issues Mr. Giaggioni presented, what strikes me is that Panasonic has chosen to commit to AVCHD without having any other "cheap" backup options (such as HDV). I was thinking that they MUST have some kind of a trick up their sleeve to be so persistent in not using HDV. I mean, obviously they are loosing such a big market share by not providing cheap long HD recording hours (documentaries, event videography, weddings, to name a part of this lost market). P2 is definitely not ideal for such projects and it looks like it needs a lot of time to arrive to this point (recording hours and cost wise). Do they honestly believe that the "filmmaking" market is so big that it can cover the loss? I would be very surprised if they do!

So?

So, maybe it is just Sony who has not invested a lot in AVCHD yet. Maybe they actually do intent AVCHD in their products to be consumer only. But Panasonic?

What I mean to say with this 2-hours-long monologue is that maybe it is just Sony's implementation of AVCHD that cannot stand the test of comparing with HDV at this moment. Or maybe Panasonic is heading for their biggest blunder in their camcorder history! (and maybe if I use the word "maybe" again, my post will be moved to area 51 :))

By the way: I am not a Panasonic "lover". I am using whatever covers my needs (and too bad nothing is covering all my needs at the moment!). I am just expressing my puzzlement... ( I looked this up in the dictionary as well!)


OK, more to the point of this thread:

Having watched this presentation, what are your conclusions regarding this new technology employed in V1, as opposed to the H1/XH technology? Are we witnessing a real step in front here in terms of quality or is Sony merely testing the market to see if it would accept a new (cheaper to produce) technology with similar image results to their existing products? I am asking this because they did not withdraw their previous models (FX1, Z1). If they were so sure of their new product (I mean, if it was such a leap in front), there would be no need for them to keep their previous models in the market, would there?

Hmmm. this should be the first time someone judges a camcorder based on marketing strategy :)


So, you've managed to read until here! Sorry if I wasted your time!

I promise next post will be shorter!

Thanks a lot,

Thanasis