Hello,

I plan to acquire an XH A1 in a few months, for which I'll want the FS-C, but I'm doing a project in a few weeks (48 Hour Film) on my old DVX100a and would love to use a FireStore. Focus Enhancement's PDF doesn't recommend using the FS-C on the DVX, but I'm wondering if it might work anyway.

Thanks for any help.

Hello, I'm wondering if anyone knows if there is a significant difference between the Firestore FSC (aka Canon Firestore for XL series) and the FS-4 HD. I know the Canon FSC comes with an XL series camera mount kit and is 60 GB all for $1250. The FS-4 HD is 40 GB and $650. I'm thinking about purchasing the FS-4 and a separate XL camera mount kit rather than the Canon-branded firestore. Any thoughts? Thanks

Yes, save yourself some sleepless nights and get the FS-C. I did a lot of research, and the C is really optimized for the XL cameras. The differences go beyond what you read in the specs.

I haven't worked with mine much yet, but so far the C has worked flawlessly. I passed up an $800 rebate on the 4-HD, and I don't regret it.

On the contrary, both products are identical except for some camera/device interoperability. Reliability, quality or anything else is precisely identical between the units. So, it really depends on whether you want to spend the extra bucks for the interoperability. I didn't, and I don't miss what I gave up.

Thanks Philip & Bill for your responses. It appears most people have a love-hate relationship with their Firestore DTEs making me a bit weary about purchasing one. When I'm ready to purchase, I'll find a retailer with a good return policy in the event the Firestore doesn't work well. I'm curious if you can describe any interoperability differences between the two Firestore units. I would think that the Firewire connection and associated "DV camera interface" is virtually the same between computers and video cameras. Isn't that a standard? I recognize the physical camera mounts differ between cameras. Philip, what did your research show? Thanks

I believe the "C" is the only one that will be triggered by the camera's start/stop button. IE, you might otherwise have to use the FS's own controls.

Everyone has their own opinion, but I looked extensively and never found an explicit and reliable statement that the 4 and the C were essentially identical. If they were, why would there always be separate firmware updates for the two drives? (The confusion isn't helped by the fact that neither Canon nor FS replies to emails.)

Anyway, I tend to play it safe, and I figured if something went wrong, I'd have a better argument if the Canon version didn't work as promised with the Canon camera.

I have a Canon A1 and an FS-4 Pro HD. The camera stop/start will trigger the FS-4 on that model. Don't know about the XL series.

GL-2 will also run either tapeless or with tape and trigger the regular old FS-4 with the camera's start button as long as you set the DV Control parameter to ON. Works fine.

It seems according to the Focus Enhancements product literature comparing models that the XL1/1s/2 and GL1/GL2 are not compatible with the FS-C model. Instead only the XL-H1/A1/G1 will work with the FS-C. For my Canon XL2, Focus Enhancements recommends the FS4 and FS4-Pro devices based on compatibility but doesn't specify reasons. Perhaps it is something as simple as a mounting bracket.

See the official website literature for more info:

http://www.focusinfo.com/dynassets/documents/products/FS-DTE-Compatibility-18Jun07-US.pdf

I appologize in advance if this has already been addressed.

I was wondering if there is a way to have 2 FSC's sync timecode together each recording a different camera? I have 2 XH-A1's that don't have timecode I/O so I'm trying to figure out a way to have them sync. I like the idea of having the FSC's expecially if they can sync together.

When i power down a line stays illuminated across the screen and slowly after about 30 seconds fades away. This can`t be normal. Anyone have an answer to what causes it and if it means my screen will one day not function?

I've only done limited testing on my new FS-C, but it worked fine the first time I tried it.


Good to hear a positive trial. What are the specs you were using?

HDV / DV?
16x9 / 4x3?
24f / 30f / 60i?
QT / mt2...?

Someone had mentioned issues with the actual tape when going back and trying to capture through the camera at a later time. Notice anything there?

Also, I'm trying to find out if you can transfer previously shot tapes into the drive. I would be so grateful if you could give this a test for me.

Ring me and I'll give you the sacred secret method. 323 851 2942.

Best

Harry


Harry,

Is this still a secret? Please share as I plan on purchasing an FSC model soon.

Brian

I found out that the FS-C is basically the FS-4 Pro with larger hard drive and "Pro" sets of features including specialized NLE support, timecode, time-lapse, etc. So that will explain the price difference.

I ended up purchasing the FS4-HD (40 GB) and the special Canon XL series mounting bracket and really like them so far. I did set the XL2 camera into Ext Control mode so that I could let the camera control the firestore independent of the tapes (in case I run out of tape!) I tested running tapeless...

1) Eject tape
2) Hit record on camera (Firestore starts recording)
3) Insert tape
4) Hit record on camera (tape starts recording & Firestore remains recording)
5) Hit record on camera and they both stop.

I didn't have any trouble with timecode or assembling the short clips together to make a very large video file. I use Scenalyzer to do that and that software works great.

Thanks again

Well, it's not really a secret. I just managed to actually get hold of a guy at Focus and he walked me through it step by step.

But now I have returned the unit to them for a different reason which they are attempting to analyze and correct: if you shoot a scene where there is a big and rapid light change - like someone switching on a light on set - the recorder freaks out and produces a few frames of corrupt material and black frames.

Not too great.

Fortunately we were running tape simultaneously, and the backup was fine which shows the problem was not in the camera.

In any case, they have my unit right now and are "looking at it". I hope to hell they can fix it because it's a really handy unit which has saved me hours of boring digitizing time.

So, to sum up, I solved one set of problems and discovered another.

Best

Harry

Hi Nathan, I just purchased a Firestore FS-4 last week and noticed mine did that as well. Just one time though while plugged in to the wall. It could be discharging its power. Does yours display the line every time you turn it off?

We recently shot a small feature on the XL-H1 using the Focus FS-C and also running tape for backup.

A good thing we ran the tape backup too: whenever there was a radical change of light level, such as an actor entering a dark room and switching on a practical lamp, the FS-C recorded a series of distorted frames and then a few frames of black.

This was only on the FS-C recording and not on the backup tape.

At the end of shooting I contacted Focus, sent them examples of this fault and they asked me to send them the unit - which I did.

A couple of days ago I received the unit back from them. There was no note or explanation, nor did they email me. I assumed all was well and fixed.

So I emailed them to find out what had been wrong, and this is their reply:

"Hi Harry,

They ran multiple tests on the drive, reviewed the clips of corruption but unfortunately found no problem with the unit.

Bonnie
Support
Focus Enhancements".

I think that's astonishingly bad treatment of me as a user.

Is this typical of them?

Perhaps someone on this board can direct me to a person higher up the food chain at Focus who would be more courteous and willing to help me get this - their faulty unit - fixed.

I look forward to hearing from one of you people out there.

Best

Harry.

Harry, have you done any tests to rule out a defective firewire connection? For example, have you tested the FS-C with a different camcorder and a different wire?

Would the unit's resources for processing data be already highly committed then momentarily overwhelmed by sudden changes which might cause increased bursts? There's other circumstance which would provoke it and it would have raised its ugly head before now.

I'm a total luddite when it comes to these things. The people who design and make these things, I think might have taken you quite seriously and probably sweated away in their basements or garrets trying to make happen what happened to you.

I would favour the thought that something in your location environment caused the problem.

There are any number of things could happen which might not be attributable to the unit. It lives apart from the camcorder, is fed information along wires which have plugs and sockets.

Plugs and sockets can be momentarily resistive or open circuit during movements and wires make good RF aerials if earths and shield connections are interrupted.

If a light is actually switched on during the take as you mention, a spike or surge in the power can be expected which can feed through to the device or into and through the camcorder in any number of ways. If you are powering the camcorder from mains, you are even more vulnerable.

My personal preference is not to switch powered appliances during a take. It would be interesting to listen to your camera sound recording with the level up and headphones on. You might just hear a spike in the high frequency audio.

Hi folks,

Thanks so much for your encouraging and prompt replies about my problems with Focus Enhancements and our film "Darkness Visible".

I will try another Firewire cable, although this one was provided by Focus and came with the kit.

The camera and Focus recorder were both running on battery power, so no interference from mains power was really possible. Also, the light being switched on in one of the scenes was a practical lamp which was only about 75 watts. I find it difficult to believe that this is the problem.

I will endeavo to reproduce it on another camera - that's a good idea from you guys since Focus could not reproduce it on their camera.

I guess that what I truly object to is their cavalier attitude of just returning the unit to me without a note or explanation. I think that, perhaps, they might have offered to exchange the unit in case there was some peculiar and arcane mismatch.

In any case, I thank you for the ideas and for taking the time to calm me down ... although I remain annoyed with the Focus people who have, in my experience, been somewhat arrogant and inefficient in this matter and, by the way, in their promises and failures to deliver the unit on time.

Best wishes and thanks again.

I will update this in the next few days just in case any of you want to hear me whining again.

Best

Harry

Oh, and Michael - I was running tape simultaneously and the fault was NOT recorded to tape. So I am tending to rule out a camera fault. What do you think?

Thanks for the reply.

Harry

It seems more likely corruption in the firewire stream.

All the unit does is record the digital data being fed down the cable and sometimes some processing to put it in a quicktime or avi wrapper.

It never get's converted back to analogue (until you play it back on your monitor).

You have to ask yourself some questions:

1. Did it happen every time this dark to light scenario occurred? Or was it intermittent?
2. Did it happen at any other time during the recording?
3. Was the hard drive subject to any violent knock, coincidentally at the same time (less likely)?
4. Could the camera itself have a fault that is post the tape section in the camera i.e. does a sudden change in auto iris cause disruption to the power section of the camera that is on the same circuit as the firewire output board?

I know if you blow the firewire output on your camera it can still record to tape so the signal originates from the same place but is routed separately.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for Focus - I think these units are fundamentally flawed as field units - they simply aren't rugged enough to stand up to daily field use. In this case however it seems unlikely that the unit itself is at fault.

John,

Thanks for your reply.

The firewire stream coming out of the camera seems to be ok, because I have test recorded direct to the computer via firewire and the fault is not present.

To answer your other questions: Yes, it does happen on every occasion, and also the unit did not receive any violent shock at any time of which I was aware.

There is now a person at Focus who is trying to be consiferably more helpful and I am running a series of tests for them.

In any case, many thanks for your input and help.

Harry

So, after reading many posts written in December of last year, I wanted to check up again. Right now, is there a FS-C model that will record in Quicktime 24f, with a Canon XH-A1, and work easily with FCP 5? If there is, please direct me, and anyone else who is interested, to the website where we can finally purchase it.

Thanks!

According to the Focus Enhancements website, the FS-C model will.

I had the opportunity to test a Firestore FS-C, and would like to report the following observations.

First, the usefulness of any piece of hardware depends on how you intend to use it. In my case, I am interested in a “backup” medium to use in case of the occasional HDV tape dropout, as well as during tape changes. My work centers around stage performances (music and ballet), and I need at least one camera to capture an unbroken time line.

I understand that the FS-C is great if you want to shoot 24P/F and edit in FCP, but I am currently happy just shooting 1080 /60i HDV to tape.

My first test was to connect the FS-C to a Canon A1, and operate the firestore in “manual” record mode. I then recorded to tape on the camera, stopped, ejected the tape, and reengaged the tape to resume recording. There were no problems connecting the firestore to the camera or to the computer.

The test clips were imported into an Avid 1080iHDV project (ver 5.2.4), but most of them would not open in the source monitor with the following error:

Audio PMM_insufficient_media()
Player version is longer than actual

I could get a working clip into Avid if it did not involve start/stop and tape change operations.

Explanation: I followed up by doing the same test with a Canon HV20 recording in from the A1 firewire output. Turns out that the A1 firewire output drops a few frames when the camera goes into and out of record mode. So I conclude that the A1 breaks the firewire stream at these two points, and the FS-C responds by starting a new file, but with a somewhat “nonstandard” file format. (Note that Avid is very “picky”)

For those interested, the same glitch happens when the A1 is recorded to a laptop using HDVsplit. The file, however, is not broken around the glitch, and will import just fine into Avid. It is then possible to edit up to each side of the glitch and save all but about 1 second of the shot.

So the next logical test was to use the FS-C in “syncro” mode where it responds to the camera start and stop controls. Results were much more reliable… except, if the tape is spun down when record is engaged. The startup delay generates one of the glitches, and you get a 9 min “droupout”.

For the record, I tested the ability of Avid to join the 9 min segments, and yes, it did loose one or two frames. For a solution just look at: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85791
The copy /b solution works just fine in Avid with no lost media.

I also tried direct capture to Avid, but although the video made it into the capture monitor, Avid seemed to think it couldn’t control the deck, and would not actually capture anything. (Newbee alert: I may not know how to properly configure Avid, but I tried.)

Battery Life: Had no problem with battery life, estimating 6 to 7 hours of continuous use…. but then again I did not use the firestore battery. I am really pleased with Tekkeon MP3450 batteries: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16855997152
I did not even try the included battery, just ran it from the tekkeon.

Conclusion: the price/usefulness factor of the FS-C is too high for my simple “backup” requirements. If someone wants to shoot 24P tapeless for FCP, then the FS-C should be perfect. The potential 9 min “droupouts” can be avoided, but it adds the possibility for error if you don’t notice a tape spinning down.
Currently I am considering either getting the cheapest FS-4 or even another Canon HV20, which would make a firewire clone recording on a second tape. In any event I will wait until just before I need it… perhaps one of you will come up with a better idea.

I just replaced the hard disk (40GB) on my FS-4 HD unit with a Fujitsu 120 GB (5400rpm,8mb,0.6A) and the unit booted up, asked me to partition the new drive and is now showing 610 min (over 10 hours!) available. Will likely almost double battery life as well as only draws 0.6A compared with 1.0A on the original oem hitachi drive.

Drive cost me 79 bucks.

Hi Frank

This is great to see your FS-4HD upgrade to 120GB. You say:Will likely almost double battery life as well as only draws 0.6A compared with 1.0A on the original oem hitachi drive

Is that less power after upgrade? or double battery life?

Why I ask because I have FS-4HD, never buy the extra battery 180mins. The battery are very good as even without using 3 days, the battery did not loss any power. Is a great Direct-to-Disk (Tapeless) Recording.

Agreed. Great solution.

Yes...less power draw (40% less) so should have a proportional improvement in battery life.

Frank, do you know the model number for the Fujitsu Drive? I just purchased a Fujitsu MHV2120-AH to use in my FS-4. Is that the same one you used?

Need help with Firestore FS-C missing files. Unit has worked great until now. I recorded the other day and went to input into FCP 6 and when I mounted drive , it shows no clips. The unit usually has 306 mins or so available when freshly formated. I noticed that FS-C show 260 mins available which leads me to believe that these clips did record and are there. One problem I noticed was I had camera set to DV and FS-C was set at HD Rec. Not sure if this would cause this. Please help. Need these clips. Also have file called FSCK0000.REC that i have not seen before. Did backup to tape, but I was to work on digital and friend has tape. Like to recover digital.Thanks Steve

Hey Kelvin...ya that was the one. Working great so far.

So are these IDE drives? I have a .8 mA 7200 RPM 200gb drive, but it's a SATA drive.

Thanks!

JR

Is there a way on a mac to "view hidden files" like there is in windows?

JR

Well I got the Fujitsu 120 GB hard drive. I got it formatted. (a small challenge.. had to power off and on until it would go to 'found new drive format disk' option)
I'm not getting 610 minutes.
It says 520 minutes (NTSC)

Did I do something wrong?

So are these IDE drives? I have a .8 mA 7200 RPM 200gb drive, but it's a SATA drive.

Thanks!

JR

negative on SATA drives! the drive i just took out is about 0.6A. Yours is faster RPM, uses .8A, it will deplete the battery quicker. a second battery backup might be an option. You can also look into ide(ata-6) to sata adapters online.

I'm excited about the upgrade and have my eyes on an fs-4. I need to know, can the fs-4 record in quicktime?

What is the advantage of recording in Quicktime rather than
M2t? When capturing video to FCE from the FSC I am only
able to capture in realtime. I thought one of the advantages
for having Firestore was to be able to drag files from the
FSC into Final Cut. Maybe the reason I can't drag from the
FSC is because I am using a Mac Pro. Thanks

Charles Dodd

Charles, as I stated I don't yet have it so I'm writing in theory. But, through research on this forum I believe that working in FCP there are additional steps to take working with M2t files. I also believe that the process to convert M2t files is so cumbersome that it's not worth it. With quicktime files you are immediately ready to edit via FCP.

My experience is that m2t and quicktime clips dragged from
FSC to Mac Pro desktop will not open from the desktop. The
only way, as stated earlier, to get clips from the FSC is to
capture to FCE, which is realtime. The m2t clips will open fine
in Streamclip, but the .mov clips will not open in either Quick-
time player or Streamclip. With my limited knowledge this is
the only way I have found to get the clips from the FSC. Hope
someone can help with this. Thanks.

Charles Dodd

I just bought an FS-C and was pretty happy with it, until I found what seems to be a pretty big flaw in the system.

I'm using the FS-C with the Canon XH-A1, and when I shoot tapeless 30F and record it onto the FS-C, it'll not save the last 2 seconds of footage onto the hard drive.

For example, if I record myself counting down in one second intervals from five to zero, and turn off the camera when saying zero, the FS-C will record only "Five, four, three, two".

I haven't experimented to find out if this occurs only in 30F mode, as I usually only use 30F, but it occurs when Retro Cache is on and all other recording modes.

Can any other Canon XH-A1 and FS-C users replicate this problem?

Focus Enhancements technical support told me "That's just how it works for now with Canon cameras," and then added, "This sounds like the the same stream interrupt over 1394 that is on all HDV cameras (except the GY-HD series where you can set Back Space to 1394) when REC is triggered on the camera. This is something on the camera, we cannot do anything about this."

Nowhere in the manual, or online, does Focus Enhancements say the FS-C has this problem and to be sure of capturing ALL of your footage, you have to keep recording for at least 2 seconds longer than you planned. I know people will say, just keep the camera rolling, and that's what I do... but if I capture something good, even by accident, in the last 2 seconds of a shot, the FS-C won't save it!

I wanted to update my post above.

While it is true that the FS-C does not capture the last 2 seconds of footage shot with the Canon XH-A1, it may well not be the FS-C's fault. As a friend pointed out to me, and FS-C's technical support hinted, it's quite possible that the camera requires a substantial amount of time to process the HD video stream and send it out via FireWire. When the Rec button is pressed on the A1, the camera could be stopping the video stream to the FS-C *before* it has processed the remaining (2) seconds of video. The FS-C, having received the Stop command from the camera, would stop recording before the final seconds of footage come down the FireWire cable.

If this is the case, it's a flaw with the camera, not the FS-C. Either way, it means when using an tapeless recording device, you should always plan on leaving the camera running several seconds longer than you thought... probably somewhere along the lines of 4-5 seconds longer, just to be safe.

Just upgraded my FS-4HD....I put in a Seagate 100GB. It only draws 0.48 Amps. Everything seems okay. I did a battery life test with the original battery (but with the new hard drive). It recorded for 1hr 45 min...and then started warning me about low battery. I let it go a further 3min...and then I powered it off. The only thing is I never did this same test with the original hard drive so I can't state a battery life increase because the Seagate draws lesser amps.

I just upgraded mine to 120Gb Western Digital, 610 mins on the gauge. The swap was easy to do, but a strange thing has happened, the unit will power down but then powers back up all on its own if power is available, either battery or DC power. If I remove DC and battery then put the battery back in its OK till I turn it on.

I wonder if I did something wrong somewhere.

When I did my swap I took the disk cradle out to make it less awkward getting the disk out of the cradle. Hmmm....

Ian

Doh what an idiot I am, I havent used the drive in a couple of months, derr, you turn it off by holding the STOP button not the power ON button .... User error lol

All is well Happy bunny!!!

Hey FS-4 users. If I get the latest update, can I transfer .mov files 720/24 & 1080/60?

Greetings-
I'm looking into the DTE/FS-4 solution corresponding to this thread. I'm a bit gun-shy because of reports of lack of reliability. I get need to back up to tape. But don't want to drop $$ if it's not going to consistently give me what I need (time is money... so is expectation/planning in workflow considerations). Thus some questions,

1) FS-4HD vs. FS-4Pro HD - is major difference that with PRO you can capture in QT-HDV? (http://www.focusinfo.com/solutions/catalog.asp?id=3) I have V1U's and edit in CS3 - so perhaps not so concerned about that?

2) Am I reading this correclty-- that FS-4HD (under $700) ... with the Futjitsu drive ($70) is a RELIABLE SOLUTION vs. FS-4PRO HD 100GB ($1650-at B&H)

3) Is there a "simple", step-by-step set-up anyone can share...

4) Some have recommended key is FIREWIRE cable-- any suggestions of BEST place to obtain highly reliable cables?

THANKS!

can the FS-4 HD Record Quicktime HD?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just bought the FS-4 HD today and it wont record on my HD100 it is NTSC USA checked on the box and Im using NTSC cam It acts like it starts to record then it stops, also I would like to kill the conversion time to none ,so if I can somehow record in QuicktimeHD/HDQT that would be perfetct...

Anyone get the firmware update with QTHD installed>??

Is there a way to playback clips on the
FS-C through Canon's XL H1 direct to monitor?

Thanks Ron

I was wondering the same thing, i am able to see my clips in my viewfinder, does anyone no if you can view the clips on a monitor as well?