I am looking for something that can be found cheep (under $400 US dollars).
Now I don't know much but I really want to learn. So, I need you guys to help me understand this. The first thing that I'll say is, I have no Idea what is good for this area... Or any area for that matter! So if you would not mind to tell me some stuff about this area and what the pros like to use, or what ever.
A couple of things that I would really like to hear from the fellow members of (H)DV info net. is; What kind of filters to use? How much zoom? And, what's the difference between macro and zoom?
Those are just some of the things that I would like to find out. But manly I would like to hear about everything, and (if possible) what camera is going to be good for me with only $400 to spend.

Thanks in advance!
~Gabriel~

Gabriel,

I think you are going to be hard pressed to find a camcorder that will give you the results you want for $400. But others may have a recommendation in this price range. I would suggest looking for a used Canon GL1, GL2 or Panasonic DVC30. I recommend these camcorders because I have used all three and they produce excellent images. They have the telephoto lens reach you need to get close to wildlife subjects (20x for the Canons and 16x for the Panasonic). I think you might be able to find these from $800 - $1,400 based on condition and use. And don't forget you will also need an editing program for your computer if you don't already have one. You might start with Premiere Elements, which I think is around $100. This give you basic cuts and disolves between scenes and some other rudimentary functions.

If I can be of any help let me know....

Regards,

Thank you, Mark!
I have been told this before in one of my other threads. The only problem with that is, I don't have a job, nor can I get one. I am only fourteen and a half. Unless there is someone I can find that would let me work for them that I know or find. So as of now, I am kinda stuck with only getting 20 bucks a month. That is why I only have a 400 dollar max price range (which a most of it came from selling stuff). Thanks for the advice tho! I'll keep looking...

PS: I have Imovie HD, which I will have to live with until I can afford something nice.

Gabriel,

Alright, since $400 is what you have to work with then look for a camcorder that has a 10x or greater "optical "zoom lens. I wouldn't consider a digital zoom because the quality isn't that good. You might want to go over to camcorder.com and look at some of the reviews of one chip camcorders and find one that gets a good rating and meets your budget. You can always buy used. Also, get a tripod. It dosen't have to be fancy. Maybe a cheap still camera tripod for $25.00 or less will do. Just remember to use the tripod when you can to avoid shakey shots.

Everyone has to start somewhere so don't worry about having to get a less expensive camcorder. I've been doing this for 10 years and I still don't have the camcorder I really want.

Good Luck and let us know how it goes.

Regards,

I have a 30 dollar tripod, but its starting to break, and the pan head on it is Horrible! Anyways. What would you say the most important things are for shooting wildlife/nature? Like what settings are needed?

I watched your demo real and you have some great stuff on there! Good job!
Thanks!
PS: What brand do you like most for recording on?
~Gabriel~

Gabriel,
We all have to start somewhere. You can buy something in the Canon ZR
series in your price range. They are good camcorders, sturdy and reliable.
They produce very good images when you shoot scenics, and respectable wildlife shots. They just don't have the telephoto power of their bigger cousins. For a few dollars you can buy a 2x extender that screws onto the lens (Raynox, and others). Don't expect pristine shots, but it will get you started. You will learn about settings as you work. No one can tell you in advance. Too many variables.
You can get a really basic editing program for under $50.00 at a big box retailer. The Adobe Premiere Elements, will let you do pretty much anything you want for around $100.00 (If you can buy it with Photoshop Elements bundled in, do it. You won't be sorry).
You need to save up for a good tripod with a video head. If you hang around used photo equipment shows, you can pick up a tripod cheap. It's the head that costs. Try to stick with Bogen-Manfrotto.
By the way, to answer one of your other questions. Zoom usually refers to telephoto (shooting things far away); macro refers to shooting things very small and close (like the insides of flowers) with special lenses. Macro isn't really feasible with the kind of video you will be doing...too much movement. You should spend a few dollars more and subscribe to a magazine like Videomaker, if you haven't already. You'll learn a lot.
Good luck.

Hi Gabriel

I have a suggestion which is probably not mainstream, but here goes

Sony made a digital 8 unit the TRV340. It has a 25x optical zoom which is a great help with wildlife, the camcorder does a decent job. It is digital, and on ebay they tend to go for about 230 dollars

Might be worth a look
Sharyn

Hi Gabriel

I have a suggestion which is probably not mainstream, but here goes

Sony made a digital 8 unit the TRV340. It has a 25x optical zoom which is a great help with wildlife, the camcorder does a decent job. It is digital, and on ebay they tend to go for about 230 dollars

Might be worth a look
Sharyn

I agree this should be considered. As far as video capture, it is the same DV file you get with MiniDV. I started with a TRV 720 years back, and still have that camera. It is not a three chipper, but it produced some pretty decent stuff. Tapes are cheap enough, and if you buy the right one, you also have a converter for anything you input through it to DV.

Thanks guys.
Is anyone familiar with the Optura line, or the Elura? I went to bestbuy the other day to try out some of the cameras there, and this is what I found out:
-The ZR500 has good picture and the manual control is nice, and its small (for better or worse). I did not find it very comfortable... but then again, if I'm putting it on a tripod whats it matter.
- The Elura 100 has great image, the manual control is pretty good, and it fits nice in my hand.
-The panasonic PV-GS180, has lots of nice control, the image is pretty good. But "I" think that the Elura has better image, even tho its only a one chipper. And its not to bad in the hand.

So right now I'm liking the Elura 100. But now I found the Optura line. One of the Optura's that I was looking at is the Optura 50. It has a focus ring, and the CCD is a 1/3.4"! I found this very nice. But I have not seen it in person. Whats you're suggestion as to what I should look for?

I agree this should be considered. As far as video capture, it is the same DV file you get with MiniDV. I started with a TRV 720 years back, and still have that camera. It is not a three chipper, but it produced some pretty decent stuff. Tapes are cheap enough, and if you buy the right one, you also have a converter for anything you input through it to DV.

How do these cameras work? Are they just a HI8 tape but you can import to DV?
And also, in one of the pictures I looked at, it looked like it had a focus ring? is this true?

Thanks for the help!

730 has a focus ring, and yes, you use Hi8 tape, and it actually records in the same format as DV. 730 does not have separately adjustable shutter speed or fstop. Rather you adjust "exposure" which gives you less control. I agreed with the Digital 8 assessment if you are limited in your budjet, and you might get a lot for your money with a used one like this. There is no difference between MiniDV bitrates and and Digital 8, and the captured files are interchangeable.

However, it is definitely not the VX2000 that I stepped up to, but for me it was a good starter.

Ahh... I see. Hmmm... I personally do not like HI8. I just sold my hi8 about two weeks ago because it did not offer anything to me. It was great if I want to just point and shoot, but thats not what I want. I would like to be able to make some indie films, and some documentaries and some wildlife and nature. I'm not sure what it is that I'm going to end up liking the most so that is why I want to try them all. And that is why I want something that has a bit of control, so that I can get all of that. I know that a lot of people like the GL1/GL2 But that is a ways out of my rang of price for now.
For picture, who would you say gives you the best quality?

Thanks again for being so helpful!
~Gabriel~

One of the Optura's that I was looking at is the Optura 50. It has a focus ring, and the CCD is a 1/3.4"! I found this very nice. But I have not seen it in person.For all intents and purposes, the Optura 50 has been discontinued. Even though it is still listed on the Canon USA website, it cannot be reliably be found for sale anywhere. It was a great deal at around US$400 ... while it lasted.

As for what's coming from Canon to replace it. We'll just have to wait and see.

Gabriel, I know how you feel about getting the best buck for you money. I'm afraid that you will not going to be satisfied with any camcorder within your budget!
My advise to you will be to join a video-club (society) in your area. I don't know how it is in the US, but in Norway we got clubs where you can rent or borrow decent camcorders for a weekend. You also get in touch with other fellows with the same interests.

For all intents and purposes, the Optura 50 has been discontinued. Even though it is still listed on the Canon USA website, it cannot be reliably be found for sale anywhere. It was a great deal at around US$400 ... while it lasted.

As for what's coming from Canon to replace it. We'll just have to wait and see.

Yes, I see that now. This is to bad. If I can find this camera used, would it be worth getting? And would it be good for the stuff I want to do?

Gabriel, I know how you feel about getting the best buck for you money. I'm afraid that you will not going to be satisfied with any camcorder within your budget!


I now notice this... I notice that I'm not going to be able to get everything that I would like, but I would like it if I could get something that is "ok", and it is digital. I had a Hi8 cam. and the reason why I sold it was because I could not do any editing.

My advise to you will be to join a video-club (society) in your area. I don't know how it is in the US, but in Norway we got clubs where you can rent or borrow decent camcorders for a weekend. You also get in touch with other fellows with the same interests.

That sounds like a good idea, I'll look into it. Do you think they would let a High School student join. And even if they did, do you think they would really let me use their equipment?

Thanks again for all the help guys! I really appreciate it!
~Gabriel~

Gabriel
Just to make sure you understand the digital 8 vs hi 8.
The digital 8 records on to hi 8 tapes the same digital data as DV does. These camcorders offer the same firewire transfer, same editing ability. It was sony's attempt at a transitional camera, since it would also take hi 8 tapes and convert them to digital

For your budget, these cameras offer you much of the same ability as the dv camcorders. You mentioned that you were interested in wildlife, here as I mentioned the 25x optical zoom on the trv340 is pretty unique in its class, with most other camcorders only in the 10-20 x range.

Trying out various options is always a good idea. Indi film making, wildlife productions are much more influenced by the skills the camerman brings to the production than the actual equipment.
Sharyn

Hi Gabriel,

I'm really very impressed by your attitude. Good on you. Go for it. Don't let anybody discourage you or underate you because you're 14 yrs old. When I was 14, video hadn't been invented so I started with a 8mm film camera with clockwork mechanism. You had to turn a handle to wind it up.

As Per says, try a video club. If they wont take on a 14yr old student they're not worth their salt so try another club.

I agree with Sharyn. A digital 8 with 25x zoom lens would be a pretty good start. I have used digital 8 as well as three chip Canon, Sony and JVC cameras. In my opinion as far as one chip cameras go the Digital 8 is better than the mini small one chip cameras as it's a larger camera to hold and keep steady, plus it takes pictures just as good as any one chip camera.

gabriel, i would not be shy about getting a cheap, decent one-chip camcorder and spending your budget on other gear. i have a canon ZR100 which i use as a deck. i have occasionally shot with it, mostly home movies of my child, but the image is pretty good. what will separate your videos is not the camera you use, but how you compose your shots, how you use lighting, how you stabilize your images, and how you use the available post-production tools. and also getting decent audio. for learning at your age and level of experience, i would say, buy the one-chip, experiment as much as you possibly can, and then, when you have the funds, buy a 3-chip camcorder and convert your one-chipper into a deck, which you will probably want anyway if you end up purchasing more expensive gear later.

there are so many things you can learn on a less-expensive camera. and you can use cheaper tripods, monopods, etc. the associated gear can be obtained for much less. at the budget you're suggesting, you would do well to get some skills, make as much good video as you can, make a demo reel, and use that reel to get some real work a few years from now. if an 18-year-old kid came to me with that kind of initiative, i'd hire him on the spot, because he would have all the other elements in place, and using manual controls on a more expensive camera would be just a matter of practice and time spent on whatever camera i will be providing employees four years from now....(whew! it's mind-boggling to consider!)

in the right hands, most people can't even tell the difference between one- and three-chip images, especially if you're making web video where you're severely compressing the image anyway. i have a friend whose first distributed video was made on a one-chip camera, and it won all kinds of film festival awards. she even received an all-expenses paid trip to italy on the strength of one-chip camera images. most of her artistry is in post-production, and everyone is blown away when they see her video, and she tells them it was done with a single-chip camera. dylan couper, who runs the DV Challenge made a short with a one-chip camera which put all the rest of our modest efforts to shame.

the difference between zoom and macro is that zoom is something that you use when you're far from your object to get closer, and macro is a lens you use close-in, to get closer. some people use zoom lenses to do macro work, but you can't really use macro lenses to do zoom work. macro work is also known as close-up work and is usually something like bugs or flowers--something where you are trying to show detail not readily view-able by the naked eye. you are doing the same thing with a zoom, of course, showing bits of the bear that you can't get close enough to see, but you are standing far from the object to do it. make sense?

Thanks guys! You've all been a great help to me! Thanks!

gabriel, i would not be shy about getting a cheap, decent one-chip camcorder and spending your budget on other gear. i have a canon ZR100 which i use as a deck. i have occasionally shot with it, mostly home movies of my child, but the image is pretty good. what will separate your videos is not the camera you use, but how you compose your shots, how you use lighting, how you stabilize your images, and how you use the available post-production tools. and also getting decent audio. for learning at your age and level of experience, i would say, buy the one-chip, experiment as much as you possibly can, and then, when you have the funds, buy a 3-chip camcorder and convert your one-chipper into a deck, which you will probably want anyway if you end up purchasing more expensive gear later.

there are so many things you can learn on a less-expensive camera. and you can use cheaper tripods, monopods, etc. the associated gear can be obtained for much less. at the budget you're suggesting, you would do well to get some skills, make as much good video as you can, make a demo reel, and use that reel to get some real work a few years from now. if an 18-year-old kid came to me with that kind of initiative, i'd hire him on the spot, because he would have all the other elements in place, and using manual controls on a more expensive camera would be just a matter of practice and time spent on whatever camera i will be providing employees four years from now....(whew! it's mind-boggling to consider!)

in the right hands, most people can't even tell the difference between one- and three-chip images, especially if you're making web video where you're severely compressing the image anyway. i have a friend whose first distributed video was made on a one-chip camera, and it won all kinds of film festival awards. she even received an all-expenses paid trip to italy on the strength of one-chip camera images. most of her artistry is in post-production, and everyone is blown away when they see her video, and she tells them it was done with a single-chip camera. dylan couper, who runs the DV Challenge made a short with a one-chip camera which put all the rest of our modest efforts to shame.

the difference between zoom and macro is that zoom is something that you use when you're far from your object to get closer, and macro is a lens you use close-in, to get closer. some people use zoom lenses to do macro work, but you can't really use macro lenses to do zoom work. macro work is also known as close-up work and is usually something like bugs or flowers--something where you are trying to show detail not readily view-able by the naked eye. you are doing the same thing with a zoom, of course, showing bits of the bear that you can't get close enough to see, but you are standing far from the object to do it. make sense?

Thanks for your kind comments, Meryem. You have helped me thru this a lot! I do think I'll do What you have said. Buy a "good" cheep camera, and just practice a lot.

Yes the macro now makes since. Thank you!
~Gabriel~

Gabriel, if you look for a used Digital8 camcorder, as some people have suggested, a TRV730 would be the best. It has a MegaPixel, super-HAD CCD and produces pictures quite a bit better than the Digital8 camcorders with lower model numbers. Also in this MegaPixel series are the TRV830/740/840.
The 730/830 are a bit better, as they have larger CCDs than the 740/840.
I've had a TRV730 for more than 5 years and the video quality I've gotten for its price, is amazing. It also has a 1-MegaPixel still mode with a MemoryStick camera card and with its long 18X lens and a telextender, gives pretty good, longrange digital photos that are suitable for Internet use (actually, for memory mode photos, it only has 14X, as the digital image-stabilization goes off and makes the effective CCD size larger). It has a USB port and can play the card photos taken in my VX2100, that does not have USB. Good luck in finding and using a camcorder. We'll all enjoy hearing about the projects you do.

I'd second what Steve says as well. It's the Sony TRV 730 I have used. It's low light capabilities are pretty outstanding. In my opinion as far as low light it goes better than the Canon XL series as I'm quite familar and own one as well as the D8. I took some footage late one evening, nearly dark conditions of a rabbit on the Sony digital 8. When I was shooting the light was very low. The video image was clearer than in real life.

Meryem got it when he said it's framing, composition, editing and story telling makes one get noticed. Buy the best you can comfortably afford. Suggest to your family and friends that they give you money for Christmas and birthday for gear, and practice your camera work. All the best. I'm sure you will have a bright future.

Thanks, everyone! Its great to know that I have a place to go for help, and encouragement. Thank you, Chris Hurd!

Do any of the TRV lines use firewire? Oh yeah, is there any chance of someone posting some footage?
Thanks again!
~Gabriel~

Do any of the TRV lines use firewire? Oh yeah, is there any chance of someone posting some footage?
Thanks again!
~Gabriel~

All of the Sony Digital8 TR and TRV models have FireWire (Sony calls it "i.Link"). A few of the less expensive ones don't have analog inputs or analog/digital "pass-through" conversion. The TRV730 has everything, including jacks for USB, LANC, S-Video, composite video, stereo audio, mike and headphones. It also has NightShot, M-PEG Movies and Continuous Shooting of up to 16 consecutive still frames in memory mode. It has electronic image stabilization (EIS) that works better than some optical stabilizers I've used. Its low-light capabilities are very good and with 690,000 active pixels for video, I've been able to seamlessly edit in clips from it with those from my 3-CCD VX2100.

Attached is a still shot I took 4 years ago with my TRV730 in MemoryStick mode. The aperture was at 4.0 and the shutter at 1/125. The pixel-size is 1152 X 864 or .995 MP. The bit-size is 520kb (it might use up to 600kb for one photo). It was set in Superfine mode and there's also Fine and Standard that use less storage bits. This model also shoots 640 X 480 stills that would typically have a bit-size of 190kb in Superfine mode.

The Continuous Shooting memory mode has some great uses. In sports action, I can set it for 640 X 480 Superfine and get 16 frames in a row on the memory card. Going through these photos later, I can select out the one or two that have the exact images I want and quickly dump the rest. It does 4 continuous images at the 1154 X 864 setting and this performs a nice function when I shoot flying birds, often giving me a usable frame where I might have gotten a dud, if I'd just clicked a single shot.

I think Sony recognized its mistake in making these full-featured, MegaPixel Digital8 models and selling them at such a low price, as they discontinued them 4 years ago.

Thanks. It looks pretty good. Any footage? Does it work with mac tho? I have heard that some older model cameras don't. I don't know if this is one of them or not. Do you know?
Thanks!
~Gabriel~

Do you guys think it would be a good thing to try and get an internship at a local news station in the near future? I was thinking maybe that way I can get some experience in live editing and pro equipment. But I don't know. Do you guys think its a good idea, to try?

~Gabriel~

Do you guys think it would be a good thing to try and get an internship at a local news station in the near future? [...] Do you guys think its a good idea, to try?

ALWAYS worth a shot. Good luck.

- Mikko

Thanks! I will.

~Gabriel~

Do you guys think it would be a good thing to try and get an internship at a local news station in the near future? I was thinking maybe that way I can get some experience in live editing and pro equipment. But I don't know. Do you guys think its a good idea, to try?

~Gabriel~

For many years in Eugene, we've had an active Community Access cable channel. It offers not only opportunities to showcase your independent productions, but provides classes and hands-on instruction in shooting, editing and working in all aspects of broadcast TV. People of all ages and experience levels are welcome. You may have a similar organization in Vancouver and certainly there's one across the bridge in Portland. Some of the program content on community access is pretty hokey, but it gives people the chance to use equipment that would be out of their reach ordinarily. You might also check your local school district and see if there's any student broadcasting activities. High school students here, handle much of the technical work for a radio station. It isn't TV, but it is broadcasting and gives students experience that's directly applicable to other branches of the Media. There may be some evening classes in broadcasting and videomaking at the community colleges in your area. Some of these may be non-credit and relatively inexpensive to take, but could be a way to get started. Right now is when such classes start for the year, so you'd need to look into this right away.

Yes, these are great ideas. Thank you for the advice! We here in Vancouver also have a Community Access cable channel. Do have any clue as to where I could find out more about this? I would not be surprised if it is the same one.

Thanks again!
~Gabriel~

PS: Do you know if there is any video clubs in the portland area?

Never-mind. I found out that mine is called, FVTV (Fort Vancouver community television) (FVTV.org). The prices are out of my price range for now... Its $75 dollars a year for the access, and the price for courses are anywhere between 25-50 dollars. However, if they do allow me to use their equipment... It might be worth it. I'll let you guys know what happens!
Thanks for being so nice and useful everyone! You guys have really helped me out, a lot!

~Gabriel~