I am just on the verge of buying the XLH1 but I have one issue holding things off. I edit on AVID Xpress Pro and currently there appears to be no support for the XLH1's 24F mode. Which as major pain since I have 2 short films I am wanting to shoot over the rest of this year and they're dramas so the 24F mode is a preferred option.

So my question is do people think that Canon will ever go over to true 24P and the XLH1 and if so when? I know the last bit of the question is impossible to answer. But do any of you guys or gays know whether a new version of this camera would carry such a change? Or more to the point what was Canon thinking regarding its 24F flavour?

Interested in peoples thoughts on this one.

Simon, it's not that the H1 isn't "true". It is. It's that the software cannot handle 1080 resolution HDV footage at 24 frames per second. It would not matter if the H1 had progressive scan or interlaced scan. It's the recorded footage that Avid cannot handle.

Simon,

This is what I am doing, and I am very happy with the results. Keep in mind this workflow is not for time sensitive material, i.e., it takes awhile. First, you must have a PC. If you do not, I would not attest to the workflow's success. If you can find a Mac solution to Step 1, you are home free. If you find such a solution, please let me know, I need to use one.

Step1 , encode HDV tape, using Canon XLH1 as a deck into an .m2t file using Aspect HD, a software you can get for a free 2-week trial. If you buy it, it's $500. I suggest breaking an hourlong tape into 3 seperate 20 minute chunks. You can get data breaks., and that will corrupt the whole shebang. By the way, one hourlong .m2t file is 11 GB. This also removes the 3:2 pulldown, so you have a 23.98 file to work with, and will no longer concern yourself with that step.

Step 2, download MPEG STreamclip. It's freeware, and is available in Mac or PC. Use MPEG STreamclip to convert the .m2t into a Quicktime file. I converted to 24 Frame DnX 220. An hour fo this is around 75 GB. Also, it takes a LONG time to render an hour of footage. Around 4-6 hours. This is why this workflow is not for the time sensitive.

Step 3, Import the Quicktime into AXP. I am cutting in a 1080p 23.976 project.

Step 4. Edit your project.

Done! As you can tell, this is a storage intensive process. Welcome to High Def.

Hope this helps.

Brad

Brad,

Thanks for the tip! I've seriously been up all night trying to get all this working, and I think I've finally managed to extract some 24f HDV footage off my XL H1. (I'm feeling burned by Canon right now... ) What good is a frame rate that is virtually impossible to use!?! At least Adobe has jumped on the let's-support-a-ridiculously-inferior-format-even-though-only-one-manufacturer-on-the-market-uses-it band wagon!

Sheesh.... But I digress.

It took my a good long while to get the Aspect HD software to recognize the camera as a deck, and then once I finally got it to work neither one of the file formats in produced were usable. The .m2t file can't be edited, and neither can the .avi. At least not by AXP. And I've been an loyal MPEG Streamclip user for a while, but of course when I go to convert a .m2t file it tells me I have to fork over 20 bones to get the plug-in for QuickTime! I did it, whatever.

Anyway it's working!!! (I guess...) I'm not exactly sure how I can tell if this is a 24p or 23.97 video file that I get form the camera... any thoughts?

Thanks again!

Brad,
(I'm feeling burned by Canon right now... )

Do not get mad at Canon, get mad at Avid since it is their fault. Avid has had plently of time to impliment 24F but has chose not to since they DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU. They only care about their Hollywood Workflow and their Government Contracts. Face the facts.

I came to realize this after waiting for 2 YEARS now for 24P support in 720P from the JVC HD100. They have been promising support since two NAB's ago. It is pathetic, and it will not be in the new version either. Avid simply has other things to do.

You should take a look at FCP. It supports the Canon 24f.

Out of all the Editing Companies though, Canopus (Edius) has been the ONLY ONE that cares about customers when it comes to implimenting new formats. They are always the first to except new formats. They also support everything natively.

As I don't want to drop $500 for simply capturing m2t files from tape to disc, I found HDVSplit for free (instead of using AspectHD) which will get the clips to your hard drive which then can be converted by MPEGStream. Seems to have difficulty still with the Canon for scene detection as it wanted to change scenes way too often, but it's a work in progress and I expect they'll figure out that bug. Just turn off scene detection and it worked fine. A bit cumbersome, but one advantage is you will no longer be using HDV in Avid and can export a QT Reference from the timeline without having to transcode.

Do not get mad at Canon, get mad at Avid since it is their fault.

I don't know, man. I'm having a hard time buying that. I can't see blaming Avid for not support a frame rate that should have never existed. Canon's 24F is a joke! (I know I'll get flack from a tone of folks for that one) I don't understand why they just didn't come out a make a true progressive frame rate like every other pro-sumer camcorder trying to tap in to the indie market! If they had just done that, then we wouldn't be waiting on - and they wouldn't be forcing - NLEs to make changes to their software just so we can use their proprietary frame blending! It's like me creating an audio format called .tim, and then getting mad at the CD player manufacturers for not supporting it! Am I off here?

As for FCP, I can't deal with all the render-time! Avid is hands down a better, more streamlined, NLE and if I have to spend a little more to make up for Canon's blunder, then whatever. But I know I'm shopping for a new Camera, that's for sure.

I will give that HDVSplit a try! Thanks for the trip Geoff!

I don't know, man. I'm having a hard time buying that. I can't see blaming Avid for not support a frame rate that should have never existed. Canon's 24F is a joke!

Let's try this again...AVID CANNOT SUPPORT HDV AT 24FPS AT ALL! The file on the tape is the same as the new Sony (HVR-VIU) cam that records in 24P at 1080i. NEITHER will work in AVID BECAUSE AVID DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM.

Sorry to yell, but trust me on this...it has nothing to do with the "f". The reason Canon used it is because the CHIP on the camera is interlaced, so they cannot call it "Progressive." You still get a 24 Frame file imbedded in a 1080/60i with pulldown.

If you theory was correct, then why hasn't Avid been able to capture 24P from the JVC HD 100 which is a Full Square pixel 1280x720 Progressive camera. I can tell you why, because Avid doesn't care and has been lying for 2 years now because they have better things to do.

Also, why has FCP, Canopus, and Abode all been able to figure out the so called "24f" situation. Why, because they wanted to not ignore part of their customer base. Stop blamming Canon.

For the record, i don't even have one of the new Canon's. I have the JVC HD100 with which the Avid dilema has been lingering much longer.

I completely agree. Avid has other priorities and simply dropped the ball on HDV. It's sad and riddiculous but that's the reality of the day with Avid. I, just as many others, still prefer the interface over FCP but may not be able to wait much longer for them to get their act together.

The file on the tape is the same as the new Sony (HVR-VIU) cam that records in 24P at 1080i. NEITHER will work in AVID BECAUSE AVID DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM.

Sorry to yell, but trust me on this...it has nothing to do with the "f". The reason Canon used it is because the CHIP on the camera is interlaced, so they cannot call it "Progressive." You still get a 24 Frame file imbedded in a 1080/60i with pulldown.



Maybe I am misinformed, but it was my understanding that the Canon does NOT use a 60i stream, but is a 24 frame stream recorded without any pulldown and the Sony DOES use a 60i stream with the pulldown. How the image becomes a progressive frame in the Canon from an interlaced sensor is the reason it's "F" and not "P", NOT how it's recorded on tape, from what I understand. Can someone enlighten us?

Perhaps I stand corrected. My apologies to Canon if I wrongly accused them. Regardless, I'm pretty bummed it's so difficult to edit 24p HD footage with Avid as I do feel their interface is far superior to any of the other NLEs out there right now.

In about two weeks I'll have the JVC HD250, and I'm looking forward to seeing how well that works. I know you said Avid didn't support the JVC 100's 24P, but in the presets there is a 720p/23.97 project you can create. In my experience with editing SD with my Canon, I can create either a 24p, or 23.97fps project and I'm able to capture the footage just fine in both.

My guess was a 720p/23.97 project would be able to handle the JVC 24p format. Is this not the case?

Perhaps
In about two weeks I'll have the JVC HD250, and I'm looking forward to seeing how well that works. I know you said Avid didn't support the JVC 100's 24P, but in the presets there is a 720p/23.97 project you can create. In my experience with editing SD with my Canon, I can create either a 24p, or 23.97fps project and I'm able to capture the footage just fine in both.

My guess was a 720p/23.97 project would be able to handle the JVC 24p format. Is this not the case?

Timothy,

720/23.97 is a non HDV preset mainly designed for DVCProHD workflows. However, with a lot of time and pain you can use MPEGStreamclip to convert mt2 (HDV 1) to a DNXHD mastering codec, let's say DNXHD 145. Then you can import those clips into a 720/23.97 project. That is if you're using Xpress or the software version of Media Composer. Note: Only 720/30p is a supported HDV project preset in Avid. It is labeled as 720/30 HDV.

If you're using Media Composer with Adrenaline plus HD card you can come straight out the HD SDI of your JVC 250 into Avid using the 720/23.97 preset because you're no longer in HDV land.

Hope this eases some confusion.

My guess was a 720p/23.97 project would be able to handle the JVC 24p format. Is this not the case?

I haven't tried this but I highly doubt that this would work. Otherwise we would have already had a workaround using these settings. JVC's 720p in any frame rate is not supported by Avid, as their 30p is very finicky and sound seems to drift and there is no support for 24p at all. You may have to look at FCP if you want to use JVC ProHD, sad to say.

JVC's 720p in any frame rate is not supported by Avid, as their 30p is very finicky and sound seems to drift and there is no support for 24p at all. You may have to look at FCP if you want to use JVC ProHD, sad to say.

Not that I'm backing or defending Avid for their lack of HDV 1 support compared to other NLE's, but in my experience I haven't had any problems editing in 720/30p HDV. It has been solid and I haven't experienced any drift. In fact, I've got a marketing DVD that I will start shooting next week. I plan on shooting/editing in 30p via my JVD HD 100.

IMHO, 30p looks great. I shot 30p last year for the same client and they were happy.

Well that give me a lot to think about! I've been thinking about shooting in 60i, de-interlacing into 30p and then using a 3:2 pulldown to fudge the 24p look?

Any thoughts?

Well that give me a lot to think about! I've been thinking about shooting in 60i, de-interlacing into 30p and then using a 3:2 pulldown to fudge the 24p look?

Any thoughts?

That sounds masochistic. No need to do things the hard way. Here ya go!http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88285&page=2

Well that give me a lot to think about! I've been thinking about shooting in 60i, de-interlacing into 30p and then using a 3:2 pulldown to fudge the 24p look?

Any thoughts?

Umm. IMO. Don't shoot interlaced if you want it to look like film. Shoot progressive. If you're are shooting with a JVC HD 250, you're already progressive at 60p.

I'm not sure what you mean by fudging the 24p look other than you want to look more like film? Progressive already has a filmic look, whether it's at 24 or 30 isn't the what the main issue is. The only time you need to finish a project timeline in 24p is if you are going to film out. And I certainly wouldn't go interlaced, to progressive, then do a reverse pull down, 29.97 to 23.978(many many many motion issues to worry about), just for the look of it. If you want that filmic look, shoot progressive then decide where you are going. Filmout, DPX, or Cineon, then you edit in send out 24 fps in QT or targa or DPX or Cineon. Otherwise it's going to need to be a pull down to 29.97 for DVD, Betacam SP, DV, VHS, etc.

Edit: Shooting at 24p does give you the flexibility to go filmout (24 fps) and go to DVD (29.97). Don't shoot 30p if you're going to film.

You might want to check out Avid Liquid.

Yeah, dude, let us know what exactly you plan to do and we can help. If you are getting the HD250, you can use Avid, but have to use the MPEG Streamclip Workaround as we suggested (same goes for the Canon). Hopefully at NAB Avid will finally start caring.

Not that I'm backing or defending Avid for their lack of HDV 1 support compared to other NLE's, but in my experience I haven't had any problems editing in 720/30p HDV. IMHO, 30p looks great. I shot 30p last year for the same client and they were happy.

Hi David,

If you don't mind my asking what deck are you using to capture from and what version of Avid Xpress Pro are you using?

I also don't have any issues with the look of 720/30p HDV either and am probably purchasing a GY-HD200 in the near future. I am only concerned about the issues I've heard about with capturing footage (even 30p) to Avid.
I have only heard from one other person besides you that captured with no problems from a JVC deck to Avid. Currently I'm using Avid Xpress Pro v5.6.1

Thanks.

Jeff,

I'm currently using Avid Xpress Pro v. 5.5.3 and I use a BR-HD50 for capture. I also used my HD 100 for capture when my deck was out on loan to another producer, and it worked fine. I did have capture issues with 5.2 and needed to use ConnectHD before I realized I could have saved $200 and used CapDVHS for free. So I now have both of those programs as backup capture tools, but I've been able to capture straight into Avid since 5.5 with no need for a separate capture/import of the m2t files.
NAB is just a few weeks away, so we'll see if Avid shows the JVC ProHD some love with 24p ingest and timeline support.

David,

I am currious about your workflow. I have had numerous problems with 720/30p capure; some clips would not capture at all, some would have audio sync problems, etc. And I believe that I am on AXP 5.5.3 - I can check later today. I also use the HD50 deck.

So, the workflow; say, the capture works, things get edited and so on. What do you do for export? For one, the deck will not record back to m2t without problems, however the camera will. But what about going to SD DVD? I am on a Mac and using iDVD for the most part. I have experimented with exporting all kinds of uncomoressed QT files, as well as transcoding to DNxHD and then exporting QT reference files but nothing worked very well. The degradation of picture and aliasing were pretty bad and I had also issues with colour and blacks. Would you mind sharing your methods?

Thanks,
Jiri

Jiri,

No problem. My workflows are based on what works for the task, timeframe, and project and is based on finding workarounds and solutions to problems and as such, it is ever evolving. This overall workflow workaround involves a combined use of Xpress and Liquid. Also, I'm on a PC and so I can't speak to specific workflow issues on MAC with iDVD. But I will break it down as best I can and emphasize Xpress and how it might work for you.
Xpress HDV Editing:
Long form: Client projects: All of my finished projects normally go to SD: DVD, DV, or Betacam SP. NOTE: Jiri, you are right in that the HDV export in Xpress rarely works to tape, in fact Avid states that none of the JVC HDV devices are fully supported for digital cut so it sucks. I try to export (via non device: File>Export>HDVBest Quality to a m2t file for archive, but I more often than not get some sort of exception warning.
So, HDV mastering on Avid Xpress is not a good option.

Shoot HDV 30p to Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ tape. (Hopefully move to Firestore soon). Dig via BR HD50 or HD100 through IEEE 1394 to Avid Xpress 5.5.3 to 250 GB FW drive. Note: PC has one SATA 200 GB drive internal, another Seagate 500 Gig eSATA drive with PCI card, AMD Athlon 64 with 2 GB memory. I also move back and forth to my HP notebook in Xpress for client location editing. They love it that they don't have to leave their office.

If there is a digitizing hiccup, then I use CapDVHS or HDConnect, capture to Capture folder, then import into Xpress. (I haven't had one in quite a while.) Note: One advantage to capturing outside your edit app is that you can archive the m2t's to DVD before you get into editing.) But it becomes a multistep process too.

Capture into a HDV 720/30 preset in DNxHD 110.(Don't use DVCProHD, it knocks it down to 960 from 1280 in the vertical) Edit picture and audio only. No titles or effects because you don't won't 1280x720 graphics in an eventual SD 720x480 DV or 720x486 SD Betacam SP sequence. You'll have scaling problems galore. Edit in HDV 720/30. (Note: I always delete any HDV audio tracks that aren't needed. I think it improves performance)

Once the timeline is approved I go in one of 2 directions depending on whether I feel the client might still make major changes or not.

Direction 1:In Xpress: Start a new 30i preset project. Open all of your 720/30 project bins: File>Open.Bin. in the new 30i project. Now everything at first on your imported timeline is going to look like crap. You can at this point reformat in 16:9 or 14:9 and render your opened timeline. Then it looks fine after render. Believe it or not your time line is still in HDV at this point. (For some reason I can never get 4:3 side reformat to work properly without it squeezing the sides vs. cutting the sides. (has anyone else gotten it to work?)
+ I have a friend who has a Avid Mojo and the Mojo turns on the side cut for 4:3, so I borrow his when need be.) So, now you can still make HDV picture changes and add SD titles/EFX. Also, this is a good stage to do color correction.
So, if you're going out to DVD you need to transcode to DV or 1:1 MXF, and then use the new transcoded SD sequence for making the QT reference. Make sure you use Avid DV codec and make sure the latest Avid QT codecs are loaded on your machine. Make a QT reference. For possibly better quality transcode to MXF 1:1. Then make QT ref.
Your DVD program then uses the QT reference for MPEG encoding. I use Canopus ProCoder for making a VOB file and I'm currently testing Sony DVD Architect for menu based DVD. This workflow I imagine should work for MAC and iDVD as well if iDVD supports QT ref. But in my experience I have found that you have to transcode to DV or 1:1 MXF before making your QT reference.

Direction 2: I have been using Avid Liquid for finishing. It's not a bad editor, but some editing tasks like "extract" or "lift" require 3 step right click procedures plus marks vs. Xpress uses marks and one button. So, I don't use it much for editing, especially long form. But, because it as a finishing editor I can get better quality scaling and picture out of Liquid (Plus I don't have mojo and Liquid BOB works well)
Going from Xpress to Liquid::
So in Xpress I export a QT in Avid MPEG 2 or Avid YUV codecs. These are actually Liquid codecs and if Liquid is on the same machine they show up in the QT export in Xpress. Import the new m2v (demuxed m2t) into Liquid. (Note: If you're in 30i Xpress, remove the reformat before exporting, if in 720/30 preset you're okay.) In Liquid you can scale 16:9 letterbox or 4:3 very easy. Select Fit X Keep Aspect for 16:9 and Fit Y Keep Aspect for 4:3. You now can take that new clip in Liquid and create any number of new timelines including uncompressed YUV, DVCPro 50, DV 25, and you can even burn a DVD from an m2v timeline. Makes a Very nice looking DVD. I have the Liquid Pro breakout box and can output to Betacam SP. The transcoding and exporting from DNXHD 110 holds up well. I have done test from exporting 720/30 DNxHD to Avid 2YUV HD (I believe) and reimporting into Liquid and it worked well.

Short form: Mostly spots that are setup as templates and re tags.
For quick turnaround HDV to Betacam SP I use Liquid. I edit a little slower but ingest/capture and output work faster. I should note the for EFX and motion graphics I use After Effects 7.0 using QT ref from (Xpress) or Xsend (Liquid). I have Boris Red 3, but don't like it as much as AFX.

For HD Mastering: I exported a QT file from Avid Xpress and Liquid using the Black Magic codec in 8-bit. The video contained no title or graphics so I can't comment on how that works. (Black Magic Codec is Free download) It makes a huge file ranging up to 15 GB or more. I then went to Digital 8 a Houston rental facility with my firewire drive. They have Final Cut Pro with Black Magic output HDSDI to HDCAM. (I did use a facility with a Avid/DS once last year, but at $450/Hr, this was a much cheaper route.) They cross converted to 1080i, and made my HDCAM layback with mixed audio with no problem.
I've only done FCP outgest on this one occasion and it worked.

ISN'T IS IRONIC that my HD had to be mastered using FCP. That is where FCP shines. Open platform and great 3rd party support that's affordable.

Commentary: For Avid to compete with FCP it also needs an affordable HD ingest/output solution.

Note: I also last week did an HDV digital cut back to my JVC HD 50 deck from Liquid with no problems at all. Hello Xpress what's your deal man.

For 24p Long form/SLOW TURNAROUND Xpress Pro: I use Connect HD or CapDVHS to capture. Then I use MPEGstreamclip ($25 for Apple MPEG), for converting the m2t's to DNXHD 75 QT using eSATA 500 Gig SEAGATE portable drive via PCI card. I like to keep 24p origination on a sperate drive. (no reason really). I then edit in XpressPro using a 720/30 preset. Sees the QT and performs pulldown on import. The same 30i and transcode procedures apply as before. Nore: I did a test 720/24 conversion with 720/59.97 using MPEGsteamclip and was able to edit in higher bit rate at DNXHD 145. But I couldn't open the clips in 30i which makes sense. I probably would need to cross convert to 1080i first. Will test later.

For 24p Short Form or quick turnaround: I use Avid Liquid. Capture straight in Liquid. Make a 29.97 sequence time line. Scale to 16:9 letterbox or 4:3. Make DVD from timeline. For Betacam SP fuse a 29.97 timeline in Uncompressed YUV. Output via breakout box component. Works well. Still don't like the interface or media management in Liquid.

In summary, If they could just get Xpress Pro to Scale aspect ratios like Liquid and ingest 24p then we would be set in NTSC land with that classic editing joy found in Xpress/Composer. The bottom line is that it is a challenge getting stuff into and out of Xpress. Once you get everything in there it's not that bad. The 30i workaround is somewhat the same thing as rendering an SD timeline in FCP or Liquid, you just have to start a new project in 30i. Then once in 30i you use QT reference to go to your encoding DVD program.

But I have to work hard to make this work and there is a lot of watching black lines render in Xpress via reformatting, transcoding and exporting. So hopefully things will change soon for everyone, especially those in PAL land.

I hope this helps and Good Luck.
Gotta go do my taxes. Ouch.

Thanks David, I will print your post and add to my AXP binder. You are so right about Avid, gee, if they 'only' dealt with I/O issues and allowed third party hardware (Blackmagic/AJA) we would be on Cloud 9 singing endless praises to Avid....

Oh, and good luck with the taxes....I feel your pain.

David, thanks for all the good info here. NAB is looking brighter.

Jeff