This is just a brilliant strategy by Sony. They are releasing a burner that cannot play protected content. So, you can pay $750 for a writer, but don't expect to be able to use it as a player.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3744

Ever wonder why Microsoft switched over to supporting HD-DVD? Now you are starting to see the picture emerge. Sigh.

That is not why Microsoft is supporting HD-DVD. If I was Microsoft I’d support HD-DVD as well and that’s only because a lot of the HD-DVDs are using Microsoft’s codec’s. They wouldn’t make any where near as much money if they supported Blu-Ray. Also the reason why Sony helped develop Blu-Ray is because they got sick and tired of paying royalties.

This whole entire thing is about money and nothing else. Microsoft is getting money out of HD-DVD and Sony is going to make money out of Blu-Ray.

Sony will release a firmware upgrade that will allow you to play copy protected movies and I’m hoping they release it soon.

With titles only having the option of MPEG2 encoding currently, Sony has pretty much shot themselves in the foot with Blu-ray as a movie media. If the vanguard of the high def buying public don't recognise Blu-ray as the better quality format - and currently it isn't - what sane minds at Sony are left are better concentrating on Blu-rays strength as a storage device. If that means cutting video corners in *some* models to push start down the volume/price decrease slope then I think they are doing the right thing. Even if they are now sledding with a cast.

That is not why Microsoft is supporting HD-DVD. If I was Microsoft I’d support HD-DVD as well and that’s only because a lot of the HD-DVDs are using Microsoft’s codec’s. They wouldn’t make any where near as much money if they supported Blu-Ray. Also the reason why Sony helped develop Blu-Ray is because they got sick and tired of paying royalties.

This whole entire thing is about money and nothing else. Microsoft is getting money out of HD-DVD and Sony is going to make money out of Blu-Ray.

Sony will release a firmware upgrade that will allow you to play copy protected movies and I’m hoping they release it soon.
Sorry, but that is not the reason. VC1 is on both formats and there is already DVD content as WMV-HD. It really is about rights management. MS took a huge hit when they added it to a Vista documentation and implemented some of it in the build (even though there was no content using it.) Blu-Ray is looking at content that will disable a player permanantly if it detects what it thinks is pirated content. Since MS is working on the Home Theater market, they, not Sony would get blamed if it went wrong. That and requiring technology for HD playback that is just reaching the market...

Microsoft did say that Blu-Ray has one extra layer of protection that it didn’t need but the fact that a lot of the HD-DVDs are using Microsoft codec is one of the top reasons for Microsoft to support it. There is nothing false about that. If the majority of Blu-Ray movies were using VC1 then you would see no complaining on Microsoft’s part.

Geez, I just hope both formats don't prove to be a waste of time. I don't see why we're not getting practically uncompressed HD versions of movies with all that space on Bluray discs, there can't be THAT many special features that weren't available on DVD before, assuming that they put anything extra in.

Sony did say that they will release some movies with a compression rate of 40MBPS but I’m hoping they use the H.264 codec rather than using Mpeg2. 40MBPS of H.264 will look a lot better than DVC-PRO HD.

It is rumored that Sony's authoring tools for Blu-ray only support MPEG2. When dual layer dics are finally released it may come down to 50G of space for MPEG2 versus 30G of space for VC1. In the short term 30G of VC1 versus 25G of MPEG2 is a nobrainer.

This could be nasty and long.

Microsoft was originally leaning towards Blu-Ray. I know this because they were saying so at their hardware conference. They were also only going to support DVD+R format for writing in Vista. If you were a developer, you would have seen the firestorm about DRM that was mostly coming from the Blu-Ray compliance. While HD-DVD has similar standards, there was no talk about rendering hardware useless. There was also less talk about strict hardware enforcement of HD content on existing hardware. MS listens to its development community and this is a result of the backlash, not some snubbing of their codec. The players will ship with the codec and they will make their 25cents per player whether the disc has it on it or not.

I would think that it would be much harder for multiple layers of AVC video to playback on the advanced menu structure. It is even hard to play back AVC video on it's own without overlaying graphics, text and another video keyed out on top with all of that playing.

Maybe mpeg-2 is the only way SONY can get all of this to work with the authoring structure and menus.

Does anybody have a HD-DVD player and know if it can handle this type of interactive structure with VC-1? I would think even VC-1 would take a lot of power compared to mpeg-2 when trying to fill the full HD-DVD authoring specs.

I would think even VC-1 would take a lot of power compared to mpeg-2 when trying to fill the full HD-DVD authoring specs.

Rightly so. Dual angle, PiP, etc will challenge the CPU / DSP doing it.
But , roughly speaking, you'll need twice the power for DECODING VC1 vis a vis MPEG2 at comparable quality, and - at least currently- four times for H264.

So there are a lot of tradeoffs hidden in here, and much depends upon the avail of efficient AND quality hardware decoder chips available to build the "player". TMK we are still waiting for an efficient HwDec for H264 and, IMHO, this is why HD-DVD might keep its leading edge as Sony is apparently totally reluctant or unable to go VC1.

Since VC1 is part of the Blu-ray spec, all players must support it anyway. It can't be a valid reason for Blu-ray discs not using it.

As for menu complexity, I can't see any theoretical problem with encoding the menu in MPEG2 and the main feature in VC1, or MPEG4p10.

So Blu-ray drives must have AACS circuitry to play protected discs?

Very sneaky. Might just be manufacturing or licensing costs for the burners if they had AACS circuitry.

Doesn't AACS protection only work through HDMI???

I bet some manufacturer will produce a HDMI to VGA convertor allowing the consumer to completely by-pass the protection altogether. Of course they'll be peering at analogue and not digital, but those who watch pirated videos are used to less than stella quality, and HD over analogue is still going to look pretty damn impressive.

The human eye cannot tell the difference between analogue and digital. This is certainly the perception of most of the Toshiba HD-DVD owners out there, and it's certainly true when viewing the results of my high definition captures (I can capture from either analogue or digital and there is nothing in it).

I found another article this morning. http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33653 The Inq artice as the source link for their synopsis.

Doesn't AACS protection only work through HDMI???

I bet some manufacturer will produce a HDMI to VGA convertor allowing the consumer to completely by-pass the protection altogether. Of course they'll be peering at analogue and not digital, but those who watch pirated videos are used to less than stella quality, and HD over analogue is still going to look pretty damn impressive.

AACS is the copy protection implemented for the data on the disc and is not related to HDMI. HDMI/DVI use HDCP copy protection.

There are already HDMI/DVI to analog converters on the market... Not cheap currently, they range from about $300 to over $3000 depending on what type of conversion. I think either Gefen or Key Digital have a DVI to Component converter for about $450. However, due to HDCP licensing, none of these converters are going to work with up-converting DVD players and/or HD-DVD and BluRay players. It will take a non-licensed, illegal product to do that... Such devices may arrive someday on the grey market, but I actually doubt it. Not much purpose and this isn't where piracy takes place. The bulk of piracy occurs at the disc and data level. Pirates rip DVD movies onto blank DVD media, they don't use a DVD recorder to receive the signal and burn it to a disc... Most DVD ripping softwares produce inferior copies instead of 1:1 copies because of two reasons. 1> If they ever get hauled into a legal battle, they at least have the inferior copy argument along with the right to "back up" your investment. And 2> most DVD features are on dual-layer discs. Currently, even at bargain prices, blank dual-layer media isn't a whole lot cheaper than actually buying the production copy of a movie. At that point, you'll be paying $7.50 for a blank disc and will still have an inferior product vs. buying a pre-owned copy of the movie for $9 at the local video store. Hmmm....

Now, there are some grey market converters on the market that will take an HDMI / DVI signal and strip the HDCP protection. These are also expensive as they must decode and re-encode the signal, but they're popular with people who want to hook up their HDTV sources to a non-HDCP compliant display like that 24" Apple Cinema Display. Most new PC monitors are becoming HDCP compliant... Like all the Wxx07 LCD models from Dell are.

In the end, people will rip BluRay and HD-DVD discs to inferior copies and even 1:1 copying will be available in some form -- just as people do now with DVD. AACS will be broken in a short amount of time (there's already rumors floating around that it's been successfully defeated). There's no such thing as perfect copy protection... It's a continuous game where the content producers try to keep ahead of the hackers and the mean time can usually be measured in weeks. Maybe months in extreme cases. AACS at least has the ability to be upgraded... This is one of the key reasons why HD-DVD and BluRay players have ethernet ports on them and they can connect directly to the internet for upgrades. Upcoming movies can require newer versions of AACS on your player in order to work.

The human eye cannot tell the difference between analogue and digital. This is certainly the perception of most of the Toshiba HD-DVD owners out there, and it's certainly true when viewing the results of my high definition captures (I can capture from either analogue or digital and there is nothing in it).

This isn't necessarily true. A proper digital source into a proper digital display will render a better image that most people will be able to see in a side by side comparison vs. the same material over an analog connection. Right now, most people can't see the difference (or at least not enough to notice without really trying) when comparing an HDMI feed with a component feed. Lots of factors come into play, but the unfortunate reality is that few HDTV displays out there are fully digital and most convert to an analog signal at some point before the signal hits the display. But on a true all-digital display, the difference between a component or VGA input and a DVI/HDMI input is night and day. If you have a fully digital capable display and can't see the difference then, you may want to investigate and see if the display truly is what it claims to be. Or you may need to get your vision checked, or there's something wrong with your digital source.

Since VC1 is part of the Blu-ray spec, all players must support it anyway. It can't be a valid reason for Blu-ray discs not using it.

As for menu complexity, I can't see any theoretical problem with encoding the menu in MPEG2 and the main feature in VC1, or MPEG4p10.

Yep... No reason why the feature can't be encoded in a more efficient codec and leave the menus and extra fluff to still be MPEG2. I suspect that most studios are taking their time with software upgrades and aren't ready to really dive into something new. After all, look how far the quality has come with DVD over the past several years as the studios kept tweaking their MPEG2 workflows. I think we have a lot to look forward to in terms of quality with the new HD disc formats. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen over night...

Just one last comment to this thread for now...

Has anyone actually noticed that Sony isn't really trying to be sneaky with the fact that this recorder can't play protected content? Look at how this drive is being marketed... It's just a DVD/BD writer. It's primary function is for authoring BD media. ..Now go look at their other BD devices like the models in the VAIO desktops and notebooks... They do read and playback protected media as well as write BD media (although only single layer for now).

I think Sony has blundered the BluRay introduction about as badly as any company could ever screw up a new product launch and this drive is indeed only a half-baked product. But Sony has been very open and forthcoming regarding what this product will and will not do. So, on that note, I also think that the conspiracy theorists need to back off a bit. If this drive serves your needs buy it. If not, don't buy it. Simple.

To be honest I don't care too uch about being able to play content on a PC. However if this drive can't even play back the discs that you create yourself then there might be a bit of a problem!

To be honest I don't care too uch about being able to play content on a PC. However if this drive can't even play back the discs that you create yourself then there might be a bit of a problem!

I agree... But then again, I don't think this drive, or most other BD writers, are capable of creating AACS content at this time. If you want AACS I think you have to encode an image onto some other media and deliver to a replicator - just as people did with dual-layer DVD before DL recordable discs were available.

Sony Blu-ray Drive Now Supports Movies
http://www.tech2.com/india/news/dvdwriters-optical-drives/sony-bluray-drive-now-supports-movies/2062/0

I have been following along this debate between Blue Ray and HD DVD and here is my two cents. (Correct me if I get some facts wrong)

HD DVD is compatable with older DVD and will support playback of regular DVD.

Blueray cannot play regular DVD without an additional laser.

HDDVD uses exisitng production lines with little re-tooling.

BlueRay requires a new production line.

HDDVD is more durable.

Blue Ray is easily destroyed with it's surface information so vulnerable.

HD DVD 33 GB

BlueRay 50GB

Disk technoogy is a temporary step at best. Soon everything will be drive based. So why re-do all things just to create a new and temporary format. Oh yeah, that way the studios can make you buy your favorit movies AGAIN.

I have been following along this debate between Blue Ray and HD DVD and here is my two cents. (Correct me if I get some facts wrong)

HD DVD is compatable with older DVD and will support playback of regular DVD.

Correct. HD-DVD players can also read CD media.


Blueray cannot play regular DVD without an additional laser.

Somewhat correct. They require additional hardware capability to refocus the laser for DVD compatibility. This adds greatly to the cost of the unit... Early prototypes and demo untis used dual laser mechanisms to provide DVD compatibility. Most of the first generation Blu-Ray players don't read CD media as an additional laser mechanism is required.

HDDVD uses exisitng production lines with little re-tooling.

Correct.

BlueRay requires a new production line.

It requires changes to production, but nowhere near as drastic as the HD-DVD camp would have you believe. In fact, Sony's Blu-Ray replication process is very cheap to buy into and economical to run. On average, Blu-Ray titles are $8 cheaper than HD-DVD titles when comparing MSRP. It's all protected under NDA, but a lot of industry watchers believe that Sony is keeping prices low by requiring studios to adhere to their pricing standards and while the Blu-Ray players are more expensive, Sony is trying to beat the HD-DVD competition with lower prices for movies combined with increased retail exposure. I'm not sure how Sony is going about it, but Blu-Ray exposure in retail stores is very up-front and highly visible. HD-DVD has since been pushed to the side at most stores.

HDDVD is more durable.

No. And concerning durability, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray just plain suck. Just as DVD is more sensitive to scratches and dirt, smudges, etc.. compared to CD. So are the new HD formats in comparison to DVD. Panasonic had it right when they started to put DVD-RAM in a protective shell. Sony did it right with XDCAM and UMD, but still opted for the bare 5.25" disc for BluRay since everyone is so familiar with these things.

Blue Ray is easily destroyed with it's surface information so vulnerable.

Yes, and so is HD-DVD. :-(


HD DVD 33 GB

BlueRay 50GB

HD-DVD = 15GB (about 14.5GB actual) per layer, max of 2 layers.

Blu-Ray = 25GB (about 24.2GB actual) per layer, max of 2 layers for now - Sony claims up to 12 layers with future revisions.

So why re-do all things just to create a new and temporary format. Oh yeah, that way the studios can make you buy your favorit movies AGAIN.

All formats are temporary, regardless of the media they come on. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray won't be the last disc based formats to come along. There will always be a need for a tangible media or storage method to place data files or movies or music onto. The spinning optical disc is going to be with us for a long time to come... The next wave of storage advancements will bring solid-state devices, holographic media and other exotic technologies demonstrated over the past several years. IMO, holographic media will be the next big storage advancment. It can work off of spinning disc type media or stationary media like something the size and thickness of a credit card. It could easily have multiple layers just like current optical media does, but instead of tiny little pits or grooves in a reflective film inside the disc, it would have holographic dots. Just like looking at a hologram, the image that appears 3D as it changes with the viewers' angle of view, a holographic media would present different data depending on the angle at which the laser enters and reflects off the data surface. Now you have a media that can have the same data density as HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, but the data presented for reading/writing changes with the angle of the laser. In holographic storage, if the read laser can change angles from 10 degrees to 170 degrees horizontally in 0.2 degree increments, and the data "dots" are the same as HD-DVD, then it would store 800 times as much data in the same space as HD-DVD!

... Currently, even at bargain prices, blank dual-layer media isn't a whole lot cheaper than actually buying the production copy of a movie. At that point, you'll be paying $7.50 for a blank disc and will still have an inferior product vs. buying a pre-owned copy of the movie for $9 at the local video store. ...


Chinese counterfactors do not seem to know that !!! they sell bit for bit copies on dual layers for 2 dollars in most Shangai stores, where Single layers copies are charged only 1.40 !

This is one of the key reasons why HD-DVD and BluRay players have ethernet ports on them and they can connect directly to the internet for upgrades. Upcoming movies can require newer versions of AACS on your player in order to work.

When this happens, people will move to re-compresion... a good VC1 copy can sit on dual layers STANDARD DVDs ok...

Chinese counterfactors do not seem to know that !!! they sell bit for bit copies on dual layers for 2 dollars in most Shangai stores, where Single layers copies are charged only 1.40 !

Yes, but I was talking about blank recordable media. The Asian counterfeit market is a different matter -- those are actual factory replicated production discs, just like the real thing. Manufacture costs are literally $0.10~0.20 per disc and often that includes the case and wrapper.

When this happens, people will move to re-compresion... a good VC1 copy can sit on dual layers STANDARD DVDs ok...

Also true, but it's still a recompressed copy. And even the best VC1 encoded copy of an MPEG2 DVD stream is still a generation away and it shows. Many pirates are content with this and it's still a problem that studios would like to eliminate. But the primary concern right now is to hold off the 1:1 copies and keep new HD players upgradable to future methods of copy protection. In the end, the studios don't care if someone wants to rip 1:1 copies to a computer and play it from HDD because that's not a very economical solution for most people as they build a library of films and it will be a very small percentage of people actually doing such things. Oh, wait... Both BD and HDDVD allow media server use anyway, even on rented movies as the random disc verification doesn't kick in until a title has been logged for 45 days.

Replicated copies on the scale of shops in Singapore or China won't happen here as there's at least some real effort to enforce the law. But in the end, it's just like anything else and pirated copies of HD movies will be commonplace and there's nothing the studios can do about it except shrug their shoulders and move on to the next format.

They coUld also charge a reasonnable price - in line with VOD , sort of 5/6 dollars. And give some credit if you already own th emovie on some older medium ( DVDS,,,) This wold absolutely kill counterfactors , at least in the westyern world, and probably their revenue would NOT be badly hurt, due to volumes sold at this price point !