I was as happy as anyone to learn of Canon's latest offering in the form of the HV10, especially its size and weight, considering that I do backpacking videos where grams count. But when I discovered that there was no external mic jack and that, what-on-earth?, the mic that it does offer was facing towards the camera operator, the party was over for me before it started. For any serious camera operator (and maybe that's where I'm missing it here), how could this camera figure into one's arsenal? Do you figure on replacing audio later by using a 2nd camera or some sort of double system sound? Or doing a hack job on the mic that's there? I ask this because I used a Sony HC3 on my last backpacking trip and as you know, audio's a problem there as well. But at least Sony has the traditional on-camera front end mic placement and they also offer a proprietary bluetooth unit that allows for pretty decent remote mic placement. How can this Canon be useful for much other than HD footage for "America's Funniest Home Videos?"

For any serious camera operator (and maybe that's where I'm missing it here)I think so. I hate to file this in the category of unrealistic expectations, but this is strictly a *consumer* camcorder. In my opinion, a serious camera operator will use it either for Frame mode playback of XL / XH acquired video, or as a crash cam or similar specialized application. Either way, mic placement isn't an issue.

As you found out with the HC3, on-board mics are problematic for any compact camcorder. With so little real estate on the body, it doesn't matter where you place the mic. If you put it on the front below the lens, then your fingers will block it just by holding the thing. So you're better off with a mic on top. On something this small, there ain't any difference in pickup between top front and top rear. But at least your fingers aren't blocking it.

The single worst place you can put any microphone, is on the camera body itself. But it has to have a mic, so there's one on the camera. My suggestion is, if you're going to use this thing for serious audio recording then yes it'll have to be double-system sound, as an on-board mic anywhere on the camera body is inadequate no matter where you put it.

The shame of the situation isn't the mic placement but the lack of a stereo-mini mic input jack.

Speaking of mic placement, what does the HV10 have in common with every recent vertical Optura that came before it? See attached images. I didn't have a similar shot of the Optura 300, but it's the same thing.

" How can this Canon be useful for much other than HD footage for "America's Funniest Home Videos?" " -

A mic jack would be great, but I plan on using this cam for technical rock climbing videos, where I wouldn't be able to use an external mic anyway. For more professional use I imagine this cam would only be useful as a POV cam without the mic jack.

I'm kind of surprised that there is no shoe mic. I was planning on getting this a vacation cam/deck/bts cam. I'll still get it but not bts might be iffy unless I wrangle someone else do audio along side the bts guy I'll get for my productions.

Maybe open up the case and connect your own external mike jack? Not a good idea?

I find it odd that it doesn't have a mic input. Especially when you consider that a lot of Canon consumer offerings have mic inputs.

This is essentially an HDV Optura. Am I wrong? A good percentage of the higher end optura models had mic inputs.

All the small consumer cameras I've been aware of (we have a Sony PC105) have mic and headphone jacks. What they didn't have, and the higher-end consumer Panasonic and Canons do, is the ability to turn off AGC on the audio. A real nightmare on the Sony.

I'm in the club missing the mic and headphone. I'll add, that 24F would have been nice. Very nice.

With those features I would have bought it in a second as a second camera. To use when the full gear is too much (which, as it turns out, is most of the time).

Given that mic placement hasn't really changed over the years with this style, has someone already perfected a modification that allows for both retention of the on-board mic as well as an ext. mic jack that then bypasses the mic?

I had the same problem when I bought my JVC DV3000 a couple of years ago,great camera but I didn't realise they had deleated the mic jack when they upgraded the camera.They listed the option of a shotgun but that worked off the hot shoe in conjunction with the zoom,absolutly useless.The only way around the problem is to record sound seperatly and sink up in your editing suite,a time consuming opperation but about the only fix without shelling out for another camera.I tried tapping into the inbuilt mic but that proved too tricky.I also do a lot of backpacking and to carry something like my XL2 around is totally impractical.

Well, if the audio isn't going to be that good for real pro use, then could this camera be the ideal behind-the-scenes camera? Sure, for a guy like me with a GL1, I could get audio for this camera via an XLR adapter or even a cheap mic input boom, but is that really necessary for behind-the-scenes stuff? I know that the default microphones like on the GL-series, VX-series, and DVX-series work fine but I wouldn't know how one integrated right into the eyepiece like that would do for comparison. Does this placement hurt audio all around or will it pick up normal things like any other consumer camera would?

As small as this thing is, where the mic is physically located isn't going to make any difference. No matter where you put it, most likely it'll still pick up some tape transport and zoom motor noise. If it was positioned on the front below the lens, it would be blocked by your fingers as you grip the camera. The location on top was the correct decision. Its position toward the rear won't affect its pickup pattern; the difference between a top front and top rear placement is less than two inches.

Oddly enough, some filmmakers don't seem to be bothered by camera noise. Me, I can't stand it. So unless you're prepared to filter it out in post, or unless you're generally taping events where the sound is so loud it drowns out any motor noise, how else can you deal with it?

The solution in this particular case is to choose a different camera... one that will allow you to plug in an external mic. Remember this is first and foremost a consumer camcorder.

I think recording sound with a handheld recorder would be easier and cheaper than buying another camcorder. Try the olympus ds-2 http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1153 which allows mic input.

Here's a couple other products... not sure if they are any good, I was just Googling...

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrack2496-main.html

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=757

also the marantz pmd670
http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=1582&CatID=19&SubCatID=188

and the tascam
http://www.tascam.com/Products/hdp2.html

both are bit more expensive but seem to be a better investment in the long run.....especially the tascam.

The one from m audio seems to be the best deal money wise....especially if you use an external preamp.(it has 2 1/4 jack) The downside seems to be it uses an internal battery.Wich means when it dies you need to recharge it.You cannot swipe for new cells.

The Roland looks good but it has only a 1/8 mini stereo jack so if you wanna use a good shotgunmic you'll need one more adapter like the beachtech or something.

I wonder what kind of trick to use to make the match up of the audio files with the right video file for editing. I was thinking of mounting the mic with a L bracket(flash grip and bracket) to the camera, enabeling the button sounds and hoping the to sync up the beeps. I guess naming the takes out loud would also help identifying wich audio file goes to wich videofile.
Anyone got a better idea?

(sorry for my bad english)

Dang, for the cost of these recorders it makes more sense to just mount a cheapo DV camcorder that has a microphone port beside the HV10 and shoot video, that would make it easier to sync the sound. Although this would bulk up the HV10 it's pretty small to start with.

If I was shooting something where I wanted really good sound though the M-Audio has good specs and is quite portable.

The Canon Elura 100 DV camcorder for $333 has a microphone port.

I wonder if you hooked the firewire from the HDV camera to a cheap DV camera if the HDV would control the DV for record and stop and keep the same timecode?

I think recording sound with a handheld recorder would be easier and cheaper than buying another camcorder. Try the olympus ds-2 http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/product.asp?product=1153 which allows mic input.

+iopd + recording accessory.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gemini-iKey-Analog-to-Digital-Real-Time-Converter?sku=807028

Picked up an HV10 today.

Since it was discussed here, I thought I'd try using my M-Audio MicroTracker and sync the audio. It was easy and worked well. Used a hand clap for a quick sync of the MicroTracker and HV10 audio. Would probably keep a log sheet to match the timecode with the file number of the recorded audio if there were lots of takes.

I didn't buy the HV10 for pro work, only family footage, but it's good to know I can use the MicroTracker in situations where audio is important and I don't want to lug around the big guns.

I disagree that a "consumer" camcorder should be excused for not having an external microphone input.

I have tiny, "consumer" camcorders that *do* have external microphone inputs.

One of my camcorders is a JVC GR-DF550, which is a heck of a "consumer" camcorder, in my humble opinion, and -- even with its tiny size -- it has a microphone input. Heck, even SANYO's mini HD1 has a microphone input. It can't be called "professional" in any way.

Sure Canon has a right to do anything they want in this regard, but I'd never buy or recommend a camcorder like the HV10.

Yes, one could get around the problem by using a Sony MiniDisc recorder and then synchronize the audio/video in post, but that's a needless hassle.

But you're right that the solution in this case is to choose a different camera.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

The solution in this particular case is to choose a different camera... one that will allow you to plug in an external mic. Remember this is first and foremost a consumer camcorder.

Some consumer cams have mic inputs... some don't. In fact most of them don't.

For most (not all, but most) DV Info Net folks, the Canon HV10 is not so much a consumer HDV camcorder as it is an XL H1 playback deck capable of handling video recorded in 24F and 30F Frame mode. Yes there are a few people here who bought it for personal use, and of course I greatly appreciate their feedback and the sample video upload clips they're generously sharing with us. But its primary usefulness for the bulk of our readership is as an XL H1 playback deck. It just happens to have a lens and a microphone, so you can call it a camcorder... I guess.

Chris I think it is also nice for XL H1 users as a tiny camera to compliment 60i shoots with the XL H1. If both cameras are used then the audio from the HV10 isn't really a concern because it will mostly be used as B roll. I think for B roll this could be a great little camera.

While it would have been nice for the HV10 to have 24f and 30f shooting to compliment the XL H1 on all types of shoots as B roll I think it would just not work with a single chip camera. The way I think the F modes work I think you really do need three chips. The 60i from the HV10 could of course always be converted to try to match 24f or 30f footage for a few B roll shots.

Not including a way of adding a better microphone to a $1300 HDV camera is just plain short sighted and stupid. I will not consider the HV10 for that reason, no matter how good the picture is. I want the ability to record decent audio too without going to double system. I already own mikes, mixers and a good assortment of audio tools.

Canon has been dumbing down their consumer offerings for the past few years, and I really do not understand why. The lack of a microphone jack or even a dedicated Canon hot shoe on this camera is just the latest manifestation of canon's shortsightedness. Let me give you another example. A few years ago Canon dropped LANC jacks on all of their compact DV camcorders, virtually conceding the market for HD cameras which could be housed in inexpensive underwater housing (with electronic controls) to Sony. What's the big deal with electronic controls in a housing? It gives you the option to upgrade to newer or more full featured camera without having to spend another $2000 to upgrade the housing, as long as the form factor of the camera is relatively the same. I know this is a niche market but Canon just surrendered it and walked away . How much does a microphone jack and a LANC jack actually cost? Would I be willing to spend an additional $100-200 to have these features? Absolutely, and I know many others on the underwater photo forums feel the same way.

I have not bought a Canon compact DV camera since my Optura PI. It included a LANC jack, microphone jack, smart hot shoe and a true progressive CCD (30p). I also purchased the small shotgun mike Canon made for this camera along with their wide angle adaptor. I would love to replace the Optura Pi with a newer and as well featured Canon HD or HDV camera but Canon makes nothing even close to this. I would have had to move up to a GL2 which then requires a much larger housing etc. I have sent multiple emails to Canon over the years with the usual and repeated response being:

"...Decisions to include or exclude a particular camera feature are made by
our engineers and product designers in Japan, based on a number of
factors. Consumer demand, technological limitations, and customer
feedback are all taken in to consideration. Unfortunately, I am unable
to provide you with an exact reason why this particular feature was not
included..."

if you want decent onboard audio, get the Sony A1. it's not that much more expensive, no more than you would pay for a good secondary sound source. why is this even a discussion?? to Canon, this camcorder has two markets: high-end consumer gadgeteers and mid-level professionals who want a deck with 24/30F playback. if you don't fall into one of those categories, there are definitely better choices for you.

i'm planning to use mine as a walkaround camera, to capture into stock footage images which i would not otherwise be able to capture on the fly. stock, yes, it is perfect for image-only stock. with this tiny camera and my trusty beanbag, i will get images with this camera that i would not otherwise have available. but after testing it against my FX-1, i would never use it intentionally for B roll.

if i ever manage to roll out of my PJs and get to my studio today, i'll post the test clips. it's such a beautiful day, though, that i may have to generate a few more clips first...it's a day for shooting pretty pictures, not for holing up in the studio with coffee....