Sez this engineering Web site:

http://www.engineersalary.com/overpaid.asp

But yet the people complain when a videographer asks for anything close to what a photog charges!

Forget it. I'm heading down to Salt Lake International to become a skycap. =)

Hmmm, yeah I think I want a minimum wage guy flying my airplane too.....

That is a very ignorant article. Doesn't say anything about the promotion needed. the care that must be taken to have fine prints made, insurance, gear, assistant, etc etc. If you get to keep half that 75 grand your doing good.

Mike

that article seems like a bunch of garbage. I'm sorry. A wedding video is viewed by many as wedding "extra". No one said that they had to pay a videographer. They opt to.

ALSO, their are videographers that do so well, that B&G will alter their wedding plans just so they can get their video done by that person.

The only wedding videographers I think that are overpaid are the ones that really don't have the talent or desire to do this. They are just really good at running a business and getting clients. They might show a slick promo video, but in return deliver junk.

Hey Tim, you do realize that the article listed wedding photographers, not videographers. I do agree with Mike S. about the article not considering overhead costs. I don't think photographers are overpaid - just that videographers are underpaid. The number of hours spent in post for a wedding video probably exceeds 5x more than what a photog would normally do. Equipment-wise could vary quite a bit. A couple of DSLRs, medium format, L-lenses, etc, could quickly add up to the same amount as 2 or 3 prosumer video cameras.

This article is hilarious! I just posted this in another thread -

I'm on the cusp of getting a DSLR. I'm excited about the prospect of the new Nikon D80. I want to see what that's about before commiting to a camera.

I decided on adding photography because the photographers I've worked with have no aesthetic integrity and imagination. Usually I attach their photos to my DVDs. I'm constantly overwhelmed that the few pics I take with my point-n-shoot, were ALWAYS so much better than the high-priced photog's pics. I always feel a pit of resentment against them for doing a bad job, in less time, and getting paid much more for it. At my last gig, the photog didn't know what to do with the couple, so I stepped in and woke up their poses, their attitudes, and those shots were by faaaar the best shots of the day.

I know what I do well, and what I do not do well. I direct people well. I realized that I'm limiting myself by only offering videography. Financially and creatively.

We had some very good friends get married and they hired a photog for the event. Five of us show up with our still rigs. One of which has several magazine covers to his credits. We all bust out and just start snapping like mad and having fun. Even my lowly D70s set up with my lenses smoked the hired guys rig. He finnaly asked why the couple had hired him with all of us there. He was told "Because we'll be way to drunk to get the reception and they want that part too."

He finnaly asked why the couple had hired him with all of us there. He was told "Because we'll be way to drunk to get the reception and they want that part too."
Honest, and to the point. What an admirable trait ;)

this has been one of those subjects that not only segregates the "archive" industry as a whole, but also creats bad blood if the attitude goes unchecked.

Ive shot weddings with 10k phtoogs, and 1k photos, and to be honest, theyre a mixed bunch irrespective of how much they charge.
What devalues our service is the precedent previous videogpraphers have set with regard to sales technique, people skills, shooting styles/techniques, demeaner and confidence, edited work, as well as time for edited work to be completed.

Its at THIS time as professionals, we much educate the client in what we do and how we do it.
Its the only way to add value to our product against uncle joe with his handycam. its the only way to bring ourselves up to equal or higher levels than the photgrapher. We MUST make it known HOW much work is invovled in getting a client what they want.

Its up to US to make these changes...

a perfect example is HDV... perfect opportunity to increase teh value of our product, but do we? How many here actually charge $1000 more for HD??
How many here charge over $2500 for a package which covers brides prep through to farewell from teh reception? How many here charge for Image CDRoms?? Hell i dont even charge that... BUT when i walk away with 400 stills from the footage i took, and 3 months later, the couple send me an album of my work i then KNOW i should have charged at least 500 for that...

I kid u not, ive had clients go for $5000 packages to have their day shot in HD simply because they want larger stills... then they skimp on teh phoog coz they know i will at least have a decent number of pics for them...

As for jumping ship, im waiting for the 5d to come down in price before i go for it. Im definately moving to stills simply becuase my own video compositions have ben leached to a point where all the photog seems to be doing is sitting back and snapping away while i do all the work and he then gives his stills and tries to take credit for my compositions.. u might think htis isnt important.. but i guarantee u, whne ur clients shows u their albums, and u u recognise your key signiature shots as stills, THEN to have THAT client turn and tell u that THAT is their fave foto... then u know uve done a good job.. what kills it though, is when they believe the photographer is due that credit.. when in fact theyre not..

Call me stuck up, but ive been at this for long enough to know my work when i see it.. and if someone plans on making money from my ideas, i want a cut in it.. if not, they should at least acknowledge that the shot wasnt their idea... but that wont ever happen... why give up credit when u dont have to?? let the client believe what they like, at least the photog will have a decent shot to use for his folio... but in the end though, its my shot/composition which allows him to contniue his bunsiness and use THAT shot to nail new clients...

Competitive...?? of course.. when u consider how small the videography demand is compared to photogs, then u will learn to appreciate this attitude. Having an edge in the industry is paramount to success.. whether that success be $$ or prestige..

Put it this way, we bought this onto ourselves.. by aloowing ourselves to overly compete with each other, weve bought our prices so low, that weve buried ourselves.

it all comes down to 3 things..

education (inc info provided to client, sales techniques, contracts, etc etc)
execution (equipment used, how its used, demeaner and your character on the actual day, people skills, interelation with other professionals <dj, photog> etc >
termination <Edit style, edit time, Info updates, contract completion, revisions and and finally the finished product itself...>

we all do these 3 things differently and put vaying values on them, but be true to yourselves and to the industry... how much are these 3 things REALLY worth...??
most of us are working between 12 to 20bux an hour...
to be hinest, it might be more worthwhile finding a job as a meat packer and make 25bux a hour...

so with the investment youve made, the skills u have and the time it took to refine your knowledge, the time it takes to meet, shoot, edit and do the accounting for each job... how much would u think its really worth??
Now that u have that answer... are u charging for that worth??

There are tons of videographers who provide bad service (sending one person to film getting ready, one for event, and one for reception...where's the involvement in the day?), really dated/bad quality edits, are bossy, intrusive, etc...

There are photographers the same as well.

People get paid what the market can tolerate and what clients choose based on what they show. To be honest a lot of what most videographers show to brides they don't like...they're nice and hire people anyways because they want something. That's actually how I got into videoing as well as photographing weddings. People kept asking me for someone who wouldn't set up tons of lights, have two or three extra people running around, etc. So I told them at first I'd set up a quality 3CCD camera and do a very basic edit for them for XXX amount. They all jumped for it. Now I offer more, but still keep the cheesy things that will eventually date folks to a minimum and do very basic storytelling. Next year I won't sell under 3K packages for photography (most ranging from 4-6K), and will be upping my video rates as well. Guests and videographers with point and shoots cannot touch what I'm giving the client re: service, quality albums, prints, retouching, etc. It's not just about one snap...it's about the time before and after the wedding, the 500 nailed snaps given and the 1.5K taken...the moments capture, etc.

I won't ever charge 75K for a wedding, but I'm going to start getting up there. I've assisted on 10K+ weddings...they got a lot of product and taxes eating into that by the way. It's more than just snapping pictures that gets you there. It's solid relations all the way through, solid product, salesmanship, etc. It's also being able to transform something that's in the brides mind to print.

Look at the work of [ b ] , huy at F8 studio in Dallas, and some others and tell me if you can do that with your point and shoot.

If you're doing 5K quality work then charge that. If you're not and noones paying bust your butt to make your business better and quit complaining that someone else makes more for something you personally don't value. Make what you do something folks do value and will spend money on. It's not that hard...it just takes work...and I'm not talking about educating them to how much time you spend editing, etc (all that crap that people try to explain to say, "look at the work I'm doing please pay me more".)...it's having stuff in their hands that they can look at and show friends that they feel is of such quality they got you for a steal at 5K...honestly I don't see that kind of quality in most video folks. It's out there for sure....but there's more people pushing over cut, cheesy transition, bad video out there....it's up to you to change peopel's perceptions and you got an uphill battle :)

I'm happy to be doing video now too. I'm not charging what I do for wedding coverage as it's an add on, but I make sure it's something that to the best of my ability they won't look back on and cringe because I'm using star wipes or whatever...and I give them something they value and reflects them and their personality. Plus service long before and long after. Within a couple years I guarantee I'll have video service at the same rates or maybe higher than my photography...unless my shooting for NGO's takes up all my free time...

Paul

In posting this I just thought it was funny more than anything. I don't think it's meant to be taken too seriously. In particular, I find the article's assertion that wedding photographers do unskilled work to be downright ignorant.

Paul, how much time does it take you to create a 4-6k photography package? How much time does it take you to create your video? Also you never stated how much you charged for video? Can you please supply that info?

I trust that you are as good a photog as you say you are, but I can't even begin to tell you how many bad, uncaring photographers I've encountered. You must be an anomaly and that's why your business is great. Congrats!

I agree with you about videographers who use cheezy special effects and corny Enya music. I can't stand that myself, but in their defense I will say they probably have put more thought into their videos than most of the photogs I see just casually snapping away without regard to composition. I find it offensive and lazy.

Also, the thing I believe you're missing in your argumenent is location, location, location. If a photog or videog live in a big city, I think there are less opportunities to charge higher rates, than a business in a smaller town.

I can't believe someone hasn't said this yet. Does anyone realize that this article is on an ENGINEERING website? Better yet, it is a website that helps engineers determine what their salary should be? Of course it is going to poke fun at other industries and how they are "supposedly" overpaid. I don't think that this should be taken as anything more than a fun Internet joke that pokes fun at other industries. Of course it is biased and inaccurate. It's not trying to be anything but that.

What gets me about wedding photographers is the ones who charge good money to show up and take the pictures, then charge outrageous prices for every copy of every print (e.g. $10 for a 4x6 lab print). That's a great business model for photographers but a terrible one for customers, who would have to take out a second mortgage just to get snapshot-size prints of the pictures they already paid to have taken. Seems to me that if you charge that much for prints you shouldn't charge more than a token fee to show up at the event, and if you charge good money to show up you ought to deliver copies of every picture you take to the client. But we've been over this before and I realize some photographers don't see the problem here, so whatever works with their clients is up to them.

I totally understand why wedding photographers make more money. The photographers are generally more important to a wedding than a videographer. The photographer is responsible for the “money” shot. The photos are hung over the living room fireplace, in people’s wallets, on the office desks and e-mailed to everyone on the net.

The video is something that is watched once or twice a year if that. There isn’t the same pressure to perform. If you disagree with this statement, perhaps you are over emphasizing the importance of your job. If you want more money, get into corporate video.

Its up to US to make these changes...

a perfect example is HDV... perfect opportunity to increase teh value of our product, but do we? How many here actually charge $1000more for HD??



HDV is only a big deal to videographers because it has become so affordable. The consumers have yet to purchase HD TV's and Blu-Ray DVD players.

Everything I shoot in HD has to be downconverted to Standard and letterboxed. It doesn't make sense to charge more for something you can't yet offer.

The time it takes me has nothing to do with the finished output...some weddings I'll labor on for weeks (pictures)...some not so long...i have a base package of 1K that is just the files on a cd. For that it takes me however long it takes me to process files...

I shoot raw. So I am effectively "developing" my pictures...I go in and edit out blinks and what not. I'll then do some batches, but a lot get special treatment...then I process to jpeg (this takes a lot of computer time which could be used for other things)...then I batch process for noise removal (even though I'm Canon there's more that can be done)...then I sort by part of the day (rehearsal, getting ready, ceremony, etc)...then I start going in and doing jpeg actions...making black and whites, duo tones, cross process, etc...then I come up with the number of proofs to be delivered and sort throught to pick out the best of the bunch for proofs...i'll then divide up a batch that optimizes for web viewing (resizing and stripping meta tags and what not...apply sharpening, etc)....then I optimize for proofs at 4X6 300dpi with borders and logos. Then I produce slideshow (if purchased). Then I create special disks for lightscribe covers. Then I burn everything off and meet with the client. Then the client will choose if they want me to design the album, us together, or send it off for an ouside company depending on album style (I am currently studying book binding and will be creating custom unique albums ala John Michael Cooper aka AltF photography in Vegas)....I then upload proofs to online galleries for viewing by families...the books come back...we do a final run through and I'm off of them

Now I've probably forgotten some steps... like when I do custom ipods for them and slideshows for the ipods...but that gives you some idea of time spent and what I'm doing. The difference in me and others is I've streamlined all of this and enjoy doing it. This doesn't even touch up on all the meeting I do beforehand, engagements, bridal shoots, etc. Trips to labs, driving to events, etc. There are photographers who do far more than I do. I would say currently my photo time spent is about 4 to 1 my video time spent (photo being 4X's more time spent). I work smart with video. Some things can take hours more for the tiniest bit of quality gained (cool if you want to do it, but don't piss and moan that your edits take 80 hours if you choose to do these things...you chose it)....Right now video rates vary from 600 or so up to 1500 for really not much added. A lot of it depends on the package they already have, if my wife or friend will be running the camera/s, if they choose two cameras or not...etc...

Next summer I'll start more aggressively pushing two cameras and will be adding more coverage time as I get some more people trained to opperate cameras and add more equipment.

I'll look a client in the eye and ask them honestly if they'd rather have an honest portrayal video that is simple and cleanly cut or something with loads of cuts, edits, camera movements, etc...I show them quality examples of both...and most just want a simple telling of the day. Because as another poster stated...they'll hang the pics on the wall and everynow and then dust off the video. I have friends who paid 3K or more (back in the day so that was really expensive) for their video guy and haven't watched the video in years. But their ratty album gets pulled out all the time. People have time to casually flip through pictures...video you've got to shut up, sit down, change rooms, etc to watch it. I'll tell them straight up if you just pay me the lowest price I'll set up one camera that won't move, set up one mic, barely any cutting, a simple DVD template that others could have, etc and they go for it....I'm trying to add more just to put more money in my pocket, but I know they'd be just as happy either way and watch it just the same.

I still believe people can make it a bigger value in the client's mind. But that's up to you in your market. And the only photographers that are over paid are the posers. They're out there...using other people's pics to get jobs, not having the right equipment (backup, etc), not having people skills, etc...but there are video guys just the same who I would say are getting overpaid too. Work smart and sell yourself hard. There's no reason for these "longform edits" that go 6-8 months. They put up from scratch and no casting done broadway shows in four weeks and less...you can't get a video out quicker than that?...if not something's wrong with your workload, workflow...

I'll take more questions if you have them.

Paul

Oh and one more thing. More and more photographers are moving to a flat fee what you see is what you get business model (like me). There's no charging for reprints, etc. I give them the files when all is said and done and they can print all they want. It's more the old used to be hassy shooters that do that sort of thing. But I have collegues who give digital negatives to clients and they still get 2K plus in reprint orders off their custom built client online proofing and ordering systems. Why, because

1. Never underestimate people's laziness. If they can pay someone else to do it 9 times out of 10 they will...like people will pay someone to mow their yard so they don't have to do it and then pay membership to a gym because they're getting fat sitting around the house and work :)

2. They have such quality pics, services offered, customer relations at the event that people want to use them to purchase and trust them

Don't be jealous because some folks came up with business models that keep making money long after the event...it's smart...there's add ons to be discovered for video...not stills, but creative stuff...like time vaults or other ideas yet to be exploited...

Paul

I don't think it can be denied that photos get more exposure than video, but I wonder if this is going to change as people become more savvy with their iPods, and are comfortable e-mailing MPEGs around. Probably the next step, and I think wedding videographers are already starting to do this, is adding Web downloads and other services to the package. Don't video picture frames already exist? What about throwing that into the package as well. It could be a short montage of the most touching moments from the wedding. I think people would really go for that.

HDV is only a big deal to videographers because it has become so affordable. The consumers have yet to purchase HD TV's and Blu-Ray DVD players.

Everything I shoot in HD has to be downconverted to Standard and letterboxed. It doesn't make sense to charge more for something you can't yet offer.

I agree on your comments on HD only now starting to take a hold in teh market, however the fact remains, that this extra processing takes time and effort.
In addition, it IS somthign u can offer now, being that you offer them the TAPE, and then a voucher to come back to you for a conversion once an optical medium has ben made available. I know for my corporates, when tehy ask for HD, i provide the material on removable Hard Drives, WMV9 HD 5.1 and they love it. I also have people asking for DivX and now H.264, so delivry options ARE there.. there just not so mainstreamed.

Its one thing to shoot in HDV then to offer an SD product form that sourced material, its another thing to offer a HD product, and if u are offering a HD product, then you should be charging for it IMO

I've shown the last two couples I filmed the HD footage and then showed them it next to the SD footage they were getting...they were very interested after that in the option of paying more to come back later when the media is more readily available and getting a new copy. This is a no-brainer upsell, especially if you are shooting high end clients...they will have the technology sooner rather than later...was it Chris Rock that talked about them getting you "on the comeback"?

:)

Paul

I'm doing my first wedding today .... need help I am vastly inexpierenced


Thanx Peter

I'm doing my first wedding today .... need help I am vastly inexpierenced


Thanx Peter

Bump this to move I suppose.

But if you don't know anything about video, and you're still committed to doing this wedding, then set you camera on auto, use a secondary camera on a wide angle (as a back up in case you messup) and try to keep the camera steady at all times. Don't get too cute with your zooming as if you don't know when to and when to not zoom, excessive zooming at the wrong times can be a real distraction. Figure out a way to get good audio, if you have to get a mic and an mp3 recorder and put it near or on the groom. Keep you camera in auto if you don't understand camera basics, but atleast try and set the white balance by all means.

But again, be very careful to try and keep you coverage pretty simple since being new to the business spontaneous things which happen at weddings can get very overwhelming.

I hope it works out for you.

I really do think videograpy is becoming more popular and we may be able to charge these rates soon.

These are all valid points...
HD will soon have it's media, but for now there are ways of delivery.

The value of Videography is becoming more and more evident.
I really don't bash photography because once you're into cinematography
you can use a still camera to do a lot... It's used all the times in movies and production. In fact for that very reason I purchased one recently.

These are all valid points...
HD will soon have it's media, but for now there are ways of delivery.

The value of Videography is becoming more and more evident.
I really don't bash photography because once you're into cinematography
you can use a still camera to do a lot... It's used all the times in movies and production. In fact for that very reason I purchased one recently.

Heck I still use stills in my videos because some times the viewer needs to focus their attention on what I want them to see and the best way to do that is a nice big 5MP picture with a good Ken Burns effect.

jason