I Know this is way to early to ask but has any body know where to get some footage from these camcorders. some is bound to ask is there any footage so why not me.

Well the A1 doesn't ship until late October and the G1 not until mid November. So it'll be a good little while yet. Somebody in Japan will probably get the first one... I'll bet you a six-pack of Shiner Bock that our own Kaku Ito will be one of the very first people outside Canon to get his hands on it. Remind me to send Kaku his new DV Info Net media server upload account info.

Wait, I don't think you're of age for Shiner Bock. Better make that Red Bull.

mmm.... Shiner....

It's not only the National Beer of Texas; it's the Official Beer of DV Info Net.

not only will the first footage come from japan, but it will feature either close-ups of flowers or ducks.. or mountain bikes if it comes from kaku.

If the sensor/inner workings are the same as the H1 (maybe even improved), Then can we assume comparitive imagery to that of the H1? That is, is the results so close that you could intercut it?

My marketing instinct say's there has to be 'some' limitation. Maybe it's the lens? Don't know. If canon feels that it's worth risking to lose some H1 sales, but realize more profit overall?

Example the HC1/A1U intercuts with FX1\Z1U, but it's a noticeably softer image.

For the canon, If it's just a fixed vs. interchangeable lens...

Hmmmm, maybe after four beers I'll see this more clearly : )

<snip>
My marketing instinct say's there has to be 'some' limitation. Maybe it's the lens? Don't know. If canon feels that it's worth risking to lose some H1 sales, but realize more profit overall?

Example the HC1/A1U intercuts with FX1\Z1U, but it's a noticeably softer image. <snip>

Well there is an additional factor, the jack pack version is going to sell for 7 grand. That's a pretty good chunk of change and I don't think that people forking over 7K for a studio camera are going to be happy if the image is noticably softer than the XLH1. If the FX1 can resolve around 700 lines I'm pretty confident that the Canon will at least match that and maybe even push into the 750+ area (in 1080i mode anyway).

www.philipwilliams.com

I see your point Philip, it's not how close the image is to the H1 that is concerning, but it's how much better it is than the FX1.

My marketing instinct say's there has to be 'some' limitation. Maybe it's the lens? Don't know. If canon feels that it's worth risking to lose some H1 sales, but realize more profit overall?

Example the HC1/A1U intercuts with FX1\Z1U, but it's a noticeably softer image.


Remember the good old days when gas was a dollar a gallon and Canon could be counted on to make sure the GL cameras were lacking enough professional features to make sure it was snubbed by the professional market? If you wanted a 'real pro' camera, you got the XL, if you just needed good video and had limited funds, you got a GL (like I did). Now, it looks like Canon is more interested in taking a bite out of Sony than it is in protecting the H1.

Based on what little I've read, the images from an A1 should be virtually indistinguishable from H1. The specs are the same. In the past, Canon GL video looked as good as contemporary XL video, even with the smaller CCDs.

The only complaints I could come up with at this stage is: 1) the LCD screen is 2.5" while Sony's palm-sized AVCHD cameras managed to squeaze a 3.5" screen. 2) Sony's Z1 successor will likely offer the new H.264 format, which is said to be twice as efficient as the HDV format. But, these quibbles can't shake my excitement on seeing a $4K version of the H1.

Sony's Z1 successor will likely offer the new H.264 format, which is said to be twice as efficient as the HDV format. But, these quibbles can't shake my excitement on seeing a $4K version of the H1.

It may very well be H.264 but when? H.264 encoding is very intensive to get the beautiful quality/size ratio it can achieve. That's why it's not an acquisition format at the moment. You need some good real-time hardware encoding chips which are just now coming to market.

-gb-

It's not only the National Beer of Texas; it's the Official Beer of DV Info Net.

I can't believe that the Spoetzel Brewery isn't a DVINFO sponsor yet. You need to work on that. (hehe)

-gb-

... In the past, Canon GL video looked as good as contemporary XL video, even with the smaller CCDs.

...Sony's Z1 successor will likely offer the new H.264 format, which is said to be twice as efficient as the HDV format...

I've shot many multi-cam shoots, and a for while, I rented the XL's. Then I tried a GL and it's media intercuts nicely (you had to knock the sharpening down a bit though). It was the perfect B-cam, smaller and easier to mount cramped locations or on the wall. Yet not tempting enough to be stolen when left alone on a tripod on a balcony, etc.

The only issue with the A1 is the lens quality and will it resolve a comparable image to that of the H1.

I'm not worried about H.264 as a rival format. It take some time for that to grow into a useable system, (for which I don't want to be a beta tester). I'll stick with HDV for both the warranty period of the camera and my workstation.

I'm not worried about H.264 as a rival format. It take some time for that to grow into a useable system, (for which I don't want to be a beta tester). I'll stick with HDV for both the warranty period of the camera and my workstation.

Funny, I'm so far away from the action I still consider HDV users as beta testers. Doesn't seem that long ago that HDV was being dismissed as a consumer novelty format. If I was a betting man, I'd put some money on Sony announcing a Z1 replacement with h.264 before November of this year. I use a scientific formula known as Roark's Law. Its kind of complicated, so I'll type slowly:

Roark's Law: When you are finally able to assemble a computer powerful enough to ingest the latest video format, then the industry will adopt a new format.

I have been thinking about the lens quality and I think maybe it is going to be very close. The new cameras still have a 72mm thread which means they are fairly large in size. This could be almost the same exact glass and lens system used for the lens on the H1. Only this time it is built right onto the camera. Both have a 20x zoom and the same thread size. I see no reason why they couldn't be the exact same lens. I would also think low light should be exactly the same as well. If the lens is the same and we know the CCD's and dsp are the same then the image quality should be exactly the same.

I see no reason why they couldn't be the exact same lens.We know that the CCD block is the same between the XL and XH, but the focal length of the 20x lenses is different. XL is 5.4 - 108mm. XH is 4.5 - 90mm.

We know that the CCD block is the same between the XL and XH, but the focal length of the 20x lenses is different. XL is 5.4 - 108mm. XH is 4.5 - 90mm.

Would bringing the lens elements closer to the CCD block account for a wider field of view?

Well, according to the Canon Japan site, the 20x lenses on the XH cams have 16 elements in 11 groups. Checking on the 20x lens for the XL, it has 12 elements in 10 groups. So they're not the same lens, although it's easy to think they might be at first glance.

That's interesting. I wonder what prompted the extra 4 elements...in any case it sounds like Canon didn't cut corners on the XH lenses...if there's an Achilles heel, it doesn't look like its in the imaging portion of the camera. Maybe its in the 20 pound power supply...

... Maybe its in the 20 pound power supply...

Hmmm, could have used that as a counter-balance on the XLs, eh?

Well, according to the Canon Japan site, the 20x lenses on the XH cams have 16 elements in 11 groups. Checking on the 20x lens for the XL, it has 12 elements in 10 groups. So they're not the same lens, although it's easy to think they might be at first glance.

since the subject of lenses has come up, any chance that the lens on the XH will reduce the chromatic aberration that is evident in many of the XG-H1 footage samples that have been posted in the XG-H1 samples forum here?

the XH press release indicated that the same sensor and (mostly) electronics of the XG are used, so I figured that the XG-H1 sample footage would be the best reflection of what to expect from the XH, but the CA jumps out at you - at least up close on a computer monitor. unfortunately, it isn't limited to a clip or two from the same camera, but is evident in clips posted by different shooters. maybe it's not as visible from a typical viewing distance, but was kind of disappointing to see - especially since canon touts their lens quality.

I'll still probably order the XH A1, but am curious as to what the footage will reveal...

Well to be fair, what you're seeing in a lot of XL H1 clips is not chromatic abberation at all. Instead, it's primarily an issue of reduced chroma bandwidth, which is a limitation of the format. For a better explanation, see A.J. deLange's excellent post located at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=516365&postcount=40 as well as some other very good input in that particular thread.

I've also demonstrated how the proper use of Custom Presets can greatly decrease the impact of this issue; see my examples posted at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72218 -- hope this helps,

Chris - thanks for the links. I missed A.J.'s post in a search I did - very good read. will be interesting to see whether canon does anything with the electronics to try to minimize further, or whether the best solution is to change the presets as you've done. i guess we'll just have to wait for real footage to compare.

my source said he will brong it as soon as he receives the demo unit, but I understand Canon U.S. made big complaint about the last (XLH1) posting action, so there's no garranty that I get my hands prior to the official release.

It is funny Canon U.S. complained about me when a lot of people here seemed to deciding to buy XLH1 according to my effort and the feedback of people here in the community. Maybe Chris can convince them.

Also, I will do a lot better job on A1 than how I did with H1.

Anyway, I was watching back the clips I shot with H1, after getting used to watching not as high res HVX200 images, H1 look stunning. So, the smaller but probably the same guts inside, A1 should be great for my use (night street shooting with MTB/BMX/Skateboard and the shooting in the mountain.

If the sensor/inner workings are the same as the H1 (maybe even improved), Then can we assume comparitive imagery to that of the H1? That is, is the results so close that you could intercut it?

My marketing instinct say's there has to be 'some' limitation. Maybe it's the lens? Don't know. If canon feels that it's worth risking to lose some H1 sales, but realize more profit overall?

Example the HC1/A1U intercuts with FX1\Z1U, but it's a noticeably softer image.

For the canon, If it's just a fixed vs. interchangeable lens...

Hmmmm, maybe after four beers I'll see this more clearly : )


By looking at their prices, me and the pro dealer person were guessing that Canon didn't hold it back for the quality.

I see your point Philip, it's not how close the image is to the H1 that is concerning, but it's how much better it is than the FX1.

I know H1 did a lot better in the dark than FX1 for sure.

Totally off topic but do you know any good camcorder store in tokyo. I will buy the A1 as soon is released. The store i usually check out is

http://www.tsukumo.co.jp/
http://www.shirakura.co.jp/
http://www.system5.jp

Do you know any better?

I don't know if we were to discuss that here because of the forum policy. Why don't you email me.

Our forum policy simply grants exclusivity to our site sponsors, all of whom are currently based in the U.S., so it won't bother me if you have a preferred dealer in Tokyo that you'd like to recommend. Thanks,

If I was a betting man, I'd put some money on Sony announcing a Z1 replacement with h.264 before November of this year.

The Z1 has only been shipping for something like 18 months, and I gather is one of Sony's best-selling new cameras ever. If I were them I'd wait until at least next year to replace that with something else, and maybe even longer. Plus it would be nice if the Z2 were based on blue-laser recording, which I'm guessing isn't very affordable yet. So the Z2 can wait and needs to wait until it's realistic to do a complete overhaul, which may take a while. How about next November?

Roark's Law: When you are finally able to assemble a computer powerful enough to ingest the latest video format, then the industry will adopt a new format.

Today's computers can barely handle HDV effectively, so it seems doubtful they'll be able to do much with AVC content in the near future. Again, next year makes more sense than this year on that point.

Since this is a discussion about Canon cameras, anyone care to guess when they'll ship an AVC-based model? I'm thinking around 2008-2009 or so...

My guess is that Canon will ship an AVC model after everyone else does.

Look at your history: they were the last to get into DV, DVD and HDV camcorders.

Our forum policy simply grants exclusivity to our site sponsors, all of whom are currently based in the U.S., so it won't bother me if you have a preferred dealer in Tokyo that you'd like to recommend. Thanks,

I should have been a bit more careful though.

I don't know if we were to discuss that here because of the forum policy. Why don't you email me.

Thanks, I will send you a mail. :)

My guess is that Canon will ship an AVC model after everyone else does.

Look at your history: they were the last to get into DV, DVD and HDV camcorders.

I'm gonna go against the grain a little and guess that Canon will ship some consumer AVCHD product in 2007, probably replacements for the DVD line. It just makes business sense. Panasonic and Canon have both abandoned the $1200-1400 bracket, probably because of the HC1 and now HC3. Sony is going to start invading the sub 1K market soon I imagine and that's just going to impact sales of other manufacturers too much I believe. I see no reason that Canon can't get an AVCHD DVD cam out within a year's time.

Hey Chris, on a technical note I don't know if I'd say Canon was the last to produce HDV camcorders. We're still waiting for Samsung, Sharp and Hitachi to provide any sort of HDV product (and I'm NOT going to count that Handycam thing). Granted, they're consumer cam makers, but Sony has already released two affordable consumer models. And I'd bet a dollar that Canon will beat those guys to a shipping HDV consumer model as well.

www.philipwilliams.com

Anybody have any ideas on when we should see some G1/A1 footage? Earlier than the cams release date??

I can't believe that the Spoetzel Brewery isn't a DVINFO sponsor yet. You need to work on that. (hehe)

-gb-

I personally do my part to keep 'em in business.

I imagine the footage will be all but indistinguishable from the H1.

I imagine the footage will be all but indistinguishable from the H1.

I have to agree. I know we've been comparing the new cameras to the GL series because of their relationship to the XL H1, but if you look at their pricepoint, the XH A1 is in a similar pricerange as the original price for the XL2.

So rather than trying to deliver a "handicapped" camcorder to the consumer masses, I imagine Canon may be trying to deliver a camera to the same market that bought into previous XL series cameras.

Just my random thoughts.

Juan

There's no comparison at all to the GL series, even if it were an SD camera. The GL has 1/4" chips. These new HDV cameras have 1/3' chips, presumably the same as the XL H1. For some reason people were always comparing the GL1 and 2 with the 1/3" chip cameras like the VX2000. I guess because they were priced more like a 1/3" chip camera than a 1/4" one.

bump from another shiner drinker from TX