Wow, I have GOT to get some cash together. The HVX is still my personal favorite, but at 4K the XHA1 is a heck of a deal. Wanna shoot some narrative film stuff? 24F ready to go. HD wedding gig next weekend? 1080i standing by.

This is exactly the camera I was hoping Canon would release. XLRs, 20X zoom, tons of manual controls, 24fps... and at a price that mere mortals might be able to afford. MPEG2 isn't my first choice for aquisition and I know that the purportedly superior AVCHD codec is around the corner, but it just doesn't change the fact that I think this camera is going to rock. Guess I'm still just a Cannon guy at heart...

Oh yes, please email best offers on the kidney *

www.philipwilliams.com


* NOTE: kidney may be damaged or non-functional due to excessive Mountain Dew consumption. Not responsible for death, yellowish skin tone discoloration or uncontrollable need for caffeine. Kidney is non refundable.

What are you going to do if you want a TWO camera shoot?

It indeed is the camera we've been waiting for for about 2 years now.

What are you going to do if you want a TWO camera shoot?

dialysis


----------

Ummm... you might want factor in an arm and a leg for shipping, handling, tapes and batteries.

Then he'd have to hire someone to either hold the camera, or help hold him up.

I want to check out the cameras, unless they're 100% identical, minus the HD SDI output, etc. I wonder how the glass is, etc.

hwm

I want to check out the cameras, unless they're 100% identical, minus the HD SDI output, etc. I wonder how the glass is, etc.

hwm

That's it Heath, they are identical except for the 'professional jack pack' as Canon calls it. SDI, Genlock, and TC in/out are the only features that separate the two cameras. Other than that...identical.

-gb-

Since I'm a bit lazy (grin), what are the SRPs (suggested retail prices)?

heath

$4k and $7k respectively, if I remember rightly. So you're paying $3k for the "jack pack", essentially...

They do look very cool - nice job Canon! But as others have mentioned, the styling is very similar to the Z1 except for the LCD placement and that round dial. It's funny the way that Canon makes such a strong design statement with the XL series but not with these. Regardless, it looks like these cameras were worth waiting for! :-)

styling is very similar to the Z1 except for the LCD placement and that round dial.

There's a small part of me that envisions the following...

Darth FX-1: "I am your father"

Luke XH-A1: "Nooooooo!"

The Canon is going to kill the Z1. Watch eBay in Sept/Oct.

Even if it *is* still vapourware ("I feel deep stirrings in the vapour..."), the vapour tells us 'Better lens, better progressive mode, better tweakability, better outputs, better rez. - egad, better Auto Focus...'

So Luke G1 sees Senator Palpetine Z1 booming down the plug-hole... Meanwhile, the aforementioned little part of me is going to bed, very excited.

You could always sell certain body fluids. You do have a months after all.

Canon doesn't do vaporware--their policy is to have the camera ready to ship within a couple of months. That's always what they've done. I respect that, actually.

As for being a Z1 killer, who knows? The Z1, like the HD100, has sold thousands of units world wide. It's amazing how quickly HDV has been accepted vs. DV 11 years ago. But I suspect it's because digital filmmaking is now an accepted way to shoot vs. analog, like BetaSP.

heath

Well if I was camera shopping those new Canon's would certainly be the ones to beat (from what I've seen so far). But like Heath said, Sony has already done very well with the Z1 and FX1, plus they have far more HD cameras in their lineup than anyone else. They could drop the price on the FX1 and Z1 and still continue to do nicely, and who knows what else they may have up their sleeves?

ps-Small bit of advice, everyone, test the camera personally before buying. Don't make the mistake I did with my HD10 3 years ago. Though that's an extreme example, I know, make sure that this camera is right for you.

I personally can't wait to get a production model to put through the paces!

heath

I agree, Boyd. I think Sony will do good, along with Canon, as long as they don't somehow make HDV's vertical resolution be 240 lines! (wink)

But seriously, it's what tool works for you. For me personally, anything from a DVX100 series (first gen, A, or B) to an FX1/Z1 (my favorite), all the way up to an F900/F950, if I have the cash.

heath

They could drop the price on the FX1 and Z1 and still continue to do nicely, and who knows what else they may have up their sleeves?

Unless Sony has something dramatic up their sleeves, I'd say Canon's got their number. The Z1U in particular is in trouble: what price could Sony propose which would make people want to buy it? Okay, they could phase out the FX1 and sell the Z1U at FX1 prices, but even then it might be rough.

I don't think so, because you still have loyal Sony users and a proven track record with the Z1/FX1 and the A1, too. Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed, but I think there's enough users out there to not make a difference.

Besides, unless someone can do well with a sell of their Z1, it'll be tough for many to shell out or even justify spending a minimum of $4000 on a camera.

And, not to throw fuel on the fire, I think shooting in 24f and 50i and CineFrame 25 (in the Sony) look very, very similar. But that's my eye. (And I need glasses, wink!)

heath

...unless someone can do well with a sell of their Z1, it'll be tough for many to shell out or even justify spending a minimum of $4000 on a camera.

For people who already own the Sonys that's true, but for someone just moving into HD the Canons look like a clear winner. Better resolution, better zoom range, decent 24f mode and XLR inputs for $3999? That would be an easy choice over the Z1U unless Sony knocks at least $1000-1500 off their price.

ps-Small bit of advice, everyone, test the camera personally before buying. Don't make the mistake I did with my HD10 3 years ago. Though that's an extreme example, I know, make sure that this camera is right for you.

I personally can't wait to get a production model to put through the paces!

heath

Good advice. If this camera actually performs as described, it's sold me. I'd certainly rent or test it with how I work. Until such time, I still have to rent the Sony's. (If I had to buy today, then I'd get the Z1U of course).

However, three months is within reach and worth the risk of waiting.

I will add one thing...many people (even me, I'm sad to admit) thought that because the DVX100 and 100a was so powerful, the XL-series of minidv cameras would be toast. XL1s sales weren't affected too badly by the DVX, and when the XL2 came out, it kicked butt, too. Neither the XL2 nor the DVX seemed to hurt one another.

Competition is a healthy thing--we come out the winners when they come out with better cameras. When RED ships, that's proof positive of that statement!

heath

I guess the Z1 is not really in danger. The reason is the cam is used in countless production setups for Low Budget HD shoting, It has become a standard there. And countless DOPs know how to use and to get the best out of it. And nobody throws the cams away now because of canon. To keep compatible with this setups, e.g. for multicam shootings, a Z1 will always be replaced or expanded with another Z1, not a Canon, to keep compatible.
And also rental houses will keep on to hold Z1 for that reason.
Indie Film Makers of course will go to Canon - 24(25)F & cinegamma, combined with the easy to use HDV, no need to buy expensive P2 Cards - perfect! The Canon might become the new "DVX", but let´s see footage first.

There will always be a place for any camera, pretty much. I once said the HD100 might be a Sony killer, but it didn't. I realize now that each camera does well with specific users.

As a filmmaker, I love the Z1 and though I'd love 24p in it, I shoot in 50i with CF25 and do a work-flow to 24p.

And, for the record, I've dug each camera, including the HVX200, though I've had about the same amount of time with that camera as I have with the XL H1.

hwm

There will always be a place for any camera, pretty much. I once said the HD100 might be a Sony killer, but it didn't. I realize now that each camera does well with specific users.

A fair point, but up until now there hasn't been any meaningful competition for the FX1/Z1U at a comparable price. The JVC HD100U is a completely different design which doesn't overlap with the Sonys for who would use it, and same goes for the HVX200. Now we have a camera with the same basic design of the Sonys but many better features at a very competitive price, so that's almost got to affect future Sony sales.

I know plenty of HD fence-sitters who might consider the Canon cameras the perfect motivation to buy new gear; probably more so than have bought HD gear to date. When we did the "World Record Wedding Video Event" in Sacramento in February, less than 10% of the participants brought HD cameras. If I owned a camera company, I'd be interested in that other 90%...

As a filmmaker, I love the Z1 and though I'd love 24p in it, I shoot in 50i with CF25 and do a work-flow to 24p.
hwm

Not in the intention of off topic-ing, but CF25 and 50i are two seperate modes of shooting, are they not?

Yes and no. 50i is 50i, but 50i with CineFrame 25 activated almost makes it 25p. Talk about it more here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=75

heath

No it's okay, I got you. It was just your wording that confussed me. Carry on gang.

I hear you guys all exited about the camera. Are there pictures any where to be seen? I surely would love to see them.

Mike:

http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxh/articles/images1.php
http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxh/articles/images2.php

For people who already own the Sonys that's true, but for someone just moving into HD the Canons look like a clear winner. Better resolution, better zoom range, decent 24f mode and XLR inputs for $3999? That would be an easy choice over the Z1U unless Sony knocks at least $1000-1500 off their price.
It seems to me that according to Canon, they are going after the Indy and Event Videographer market with these 2 cameras, which I am exstatic about, since I am an Event Videographer.

However, the big question here, is how will the low light ability be with the new Canon's? Even though their latest HDV cameras FX1/Z1U have been alright and not spectacular, this is an area where Sony has been the king for some time.

If the new Canon's have just as good or better low light capabilaties, then they will have a slam dunk.

However, the big question here, is how will the low light ability be with the new Canon's? Even though their latest HDV cameras FX1/Z1U have been alright and not spectacular, this is an area where Sony has been the king for some time.

Based on my tests and other user reports of the Canon XL-H1, I'm hopeful that the smaller Canons will be tolerable in all but the worst lighting. In my experience XL-H1 footage looked grainy in low light compared to the Sonys, but others find it to be preferable so long as the gain is controlled. Provided the small cameras are similar, I think the features and price of the base model Canon will make it an easy pick over the Z1U for event work. I only wish Canon had made this announcement a year or two earlier so I could have thought about it then - I've already bought Sony cameras.

It seems to me that according to Canon, they are going after the Indy and Event Videographer market with these 2 cameras, which I am exstatic about, since I am an Event Videographer.
<snip>
If the new Canon's have just as good or better low light capabilaties, then they will have a slam dunk.

Here's a quote from the Canon site:
"widescreen HD image that is made for your HD broadcast and theatrical projects."
That's pretty confident talk about a $4,000 camcorder, even by over zealous marketing standards. I think Canon is clearly going to pursue HD100 and even HVX buyers that are looking to enter digital cinema. And with 1080i and 36db of gain, they're clearly targeting the news and event shooters too.

The versatility of this cam is going to sell this thing like crazy. The only way this could flop is if Canon used a poorly engineered lens thats too soft and/or has too much chromatic aberation. This is Canon, so the lens isn't the first place I'd look for trouble, and the CCDs and DSP are already proven in a $9,000 camera.

On the low light front, I wouldn't expect better than the Z1. There are some low light XLH1 clips floating around, and they've looked adequate, so I think these will perform alright for event and wedding videography. Honestly, the HD cams just need more light and even Sony's offerings don't match their PD150/170 in the dark.

www.philipwilliams.com

Based on my tests and other user reports of the Canon XL-H1, I'm hopeful that the smaller Canons will be tolerable in all but the worst lighting. In my experience XL-H1 footage looked grainy in low light compared to the Sonys, but others find it to be preferable so long as the gain is controlled. Provided the small cameras are similar, I think the features and price of the base model Canon will make it an easy pick over the Z1U for event work. I only wish Canon had made this announcement a year or two earlier so I could have thought about it then - I've already bought Sony cameras.

This is the reason that I switched to Sony's in the first place though, as the GL2's I was using had a bit too much grain for my taste in low light, while the PD170 and VX2100, was much cleaner.
In, very low light situations, I always use an on camera PAG C6 35 watt light system while shooting. But the light is only used on 1 cam, while my 2nd or third cams use no lighting. This is why I chose Sony over Canon, as the other 2 (Canon) camera's couldn't hold up in low light situations.

I really did preffer the Canon's color reproduction over the Sony's, much more accurate and richer.

I haven't bought any Sony HD cams yet, as I still preffer my VX2100 for low light event work, although the FX1/Z1 holds the blacks well in low light, the image is still dark.

I'll have to wait and see what the feedback from event users will be, expecially those who already own Z1's and are seriously considering picking up at least one of these Canon's.

On the low light front, I wouldn't expect better than the Z1. There are some low light XLH1 clips floating around, and they've looked adequate, so I think these will perform alright for event and wedding videography. Honestly, the HD cams just need more light and even Sony's offerings don't match their PD150/170 in the dark.

www.philipwilliams.com

I agree, which is why I haven' switched to HD yet.

...I'll have to wait and see what the feedback from event users will be, expecially those who already own Z1's and are seriously considering picking up at least one of these Canon's.

I have a few jobs next month that will require renting the Sony's. I'm going to be all over those camera's before I can get my hands on the Canon A1, (I hoping my local canon guy gets a few rentals in and get's off his Pany HVX kick).

Regardless, if the new Canon's don't meet my expectations, then it will just solidify my choosing the Sonys in the first place.

One of the most import issues with event recording is lighting, and that 90% of the time you have no control over it. Especially corporate events with multiple speakers, always bringing up and down the lights when doing their power-points and demos. Walking up to or in front of the projector screens. The guy who stands alongside the podium, rather than behind it, and is no longer in the good lighting. With the wrong camera it's a post nightmare.

To be fair doubters of the XH series quality aren't being completely accurate.

The quaility of the camera isn't up in the air because they aren't anything new, just new packaging.

The same chips and everything as the H1 so we already know everything there is to know about the camera, only the lens is up in the air.

And that's not really true either considering both the cameras use a 20x HD lens that look to have the same filter diameter of 72mm. Size wise based on the pictures the lens itself looks to be the roughly the same length as the XL-H1, so it's essentially just a static version of the same lens with added iris.

All that said the quailty of this is in the bag, other cameras didn't have predecessors but this one does, there is next to no new technology here.

Aside from possibly lowlight the H1 tell us everything we need to know about the A1 and G1.

Well there's at least some new technology... the "Instant AF" thing will be very interesting.

One advantage that Sony has is the gain on the FX1/Z1 can go up to 12db and still be fairly clean. I like that a lot. The Canon XL H1 can go up to around 6db or so before I see grain.

heath

One advantage that Sony has is the gain on the FX1/Z1 can go up to 12db and still be fairly clean. I like that a lot. The Canon XL H1 can go up to around 6db or so before I see grain.

heath

Yeah, Sony definitely does the low light thing very well. I shoot the occasional wedding with PD150s and they practically see in the dark. I would expect these Canons to do all right in low light, though not spectacularly well. Still, from the low light XLH1 footage I've downloaded, I think they'll cut it for wedding/event videographers that need a "workhorse" cam for the paying gigs but also want a good 24fps for the times they moonlight as "film maker" :)

www.philipwilliams.com

And that's not really true either considering both the cameras use a 20x HD lens that look to have the same filter diameter of 72mm. Size wise based on the pictures the lens itself looks to be the roughly the same length as the XL-H1, so it's essentially just a static version of the same lens with added iris.

All that said the quailty of this is in the bag, other cameras didn't have predecessors but this one does, there is next to no new technology here.

Aside from possibly lowlight the H1 tell us everything we need to know about the A1 and G1.

The specs on the 20X attached to the XH cameras show it to be a bit wider and less telephoto so it could conceivably give better lowlight performance because as you know, a wider field of view takes in more light. Whether it will be enough to be noticably better than the H1 remains to be seen (sorry for the pun).

-gb-

If it was better (Heath said 6db the H1 can do well no problem, so maybe 9db?) that'd be incredible.

Evan,

I saw a very clean image with gain settings of 6db on the Canon XL H1, 3db on the HD100 (JVC) and 12db on the Sony.

heath

I have a M.F.A. in film, but my technological knowledge is dated (graduated 6 years ago) and hoped you guys could provide some feedback to a kind of video newbie (writer switched to filmmaker). In light of the aforementioned discussion, if you gurus were to start brand new with the Sony or Canon line, which one would it be? I know to some this is a brand loyality issue, but I'm interested in what will get me the best results (and eventually the most business) in the future. To be specific, I own two VX2100s (bought for their low-light capabilities) and already have potential buyers for both of them. I figured that, if necessary, I could switch over to a GL2 and then plan on adding to the arsenal by selling a kidney in the near future (hoping within a year) in order to do decent multi-camera shoots. In the past I have progressed from Sony after Sony and after reading this thread am now seriously considering switching over to Canon (if only the low light hadn't been an issue I would have been shooting on them a long time ago) and figure this would be the perfect time to do it if I were going to. Any thoughts? And does this question even make sense? I've been editing for the last 10 hours and it doesn't make much sense to me, so please don't yell at me if I'm being unclear :-)

Thank you so much,
Beth

While I haven't had a chance to use the XL-H1. I am an owner of an XL2. I've gone up to 6db gain on the XL2 and still had satisfactory results.

Beth,

Go here and post that question:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=62

heath

I have a M.F.A. in film, but my technological knowledge is dated (graduated 6 years ago) and hoped you guys could provide some feedback to a kind of video newbie (writer switched to filmmaker). In light of the aforementioned discussion, if you gurus were to start brand new with the Sony or Canon line, which one would it be? I know to some this is a brand loyality issue, but I'm interested in what will get me the best results (and eventually the most business) in the future. To be specific, I own two VX2100s (bought for their low-light capabilities) and already have potential buyers for both of them. I figured that, if necessary, I could switch over to a GL2 and then plan on adding to the arsenal by selling a kidney in the near future (hoping within a year) in order to do decent multi-camera shoots. In the past I have progressed from Sony after Sony and after reading this thread am now seriously considering switching over to Canon (if only the low light hadn't been an issue I would have been shooting on them a long time ago) and figure this would be the perfect time to do it if I were going to. Any thoughts? And does this question even make sense? I've been editing for the last 10 hours and it doesn't make much sense to me, so please don't yell at me if I'm being unclear :-)

Thank you so much,
Beth