I have a friend that is in the video business, as I am. One day the friend (who normally deals in weddings) called me to say that he has a potential client for a corporate video. My friend told me that he had put in a quote for the video of $5000. The video was a simple two day shoot with one camera, editing to their script, and mastering a DVD.

My friend felt that he may not have all the equipment or experience to pull the job off, and wanted to know if I wanted to take the job. He wanted me to be the one that talked to the client, help refine the script, travel to their location for the 2 days, do all the shooting, all the editing, and all the DVD production (with my equipment).

I told the friend that I had no problem taking on that job. We then got into a discussion of compensation. Before I ever said a word, my friend stated that he wanted to "pay me well for the work....but not like, half or anything." My first response to him was "why not".

My friend then said, that it was his client. I then responded to him by saying that if I was going to do ALL the work with my equipment, why would that not even be worth half the money in his eyes? He really did not have an answer, but stuck to his "but it's my client" stance. So, I reminded him that it wouldn't be his client if he couldn't do the job. I also then asked him why he felt that if HE did all the work, HE was $5000, but if I do all the work, I am not even worth half what he is. Again he had no response, and even stated that he was puzzled by my response. I then declined to do the job.

So, does anyone think that I am being unreasonable?

In that case, if it's his client, he should do the job. If he can't, and needs to pass, you should get the negotiated price (Considering you feel it is square), and he might get a referral fee.

In that case, if it's his client, he should do the job. If he can't, and needs to pass, you should get the negotiated price (Considering you feel it is square), and he might get a referral fee.

Thats how I felt about it, but never even got to presenting that thought.

Every business has its "rain makers" and every business has its producers. You need both. In this case, you friend made the rain, and you would be doing the work. The only question is what is the fair share for each. Will this be a relationship that will grow and blossom ? Don't reject it out of hand.

Ray! I don't think you are at all unreasonable. Congratulations for sticking to your guns. You are entitled to the bulk of the fee. As Keith Forman said your friend could only expect a referral fee.

I don't think you're at all unreasonable, though I would have given pause to sticking with the $5000 quote - who knows, without your having talked to the client, you don't know but what it shouldn't have been quoted at an even higher rate.

You might have offered him a "finder's fee" on the order of 10% but that's all he would be entitled to IMHO. If it was a subcontractor arrangement where he covered the upfront costs of the project, endemnified your fee and paid you himself for your work upon delivery of the final product, then billed the client and assumed the risk that the client would pay!, that might be another matter.

Yeah I agree with you Ray. Even if it is his client he shouldn't be payed more than half for doing nothing.

It would make being a video broker more profitable than being a videographer. No equipment other than a phone is needed ;)

does the reason really matter on why other person should get a cut ?

this is not unheard of in hollywood - commercials, music video's , even saturday night live shorts ... X company gets the contract say for 150k and knows they can't make a good profit .. they call Y company who does good work (could use the hi profile work) and tells them here are boards and the budget is 75K .. Y company says they can do it but they will not make a profit BUT they do it for their reel or to have their name on SNL - Y company never knows the real budget ...
depending on the contract company Y may have to work with director from company X or X director just over see's Y director ? all depends on the job.

find a amount you both can agree on .. if you can't get a 3rd party to decide that amount ... now if the other guy would have just ran the $$ thru his company and told you the budget for the work is 2500 you might have done it???? -
it's only when one knows the budget is 5k and you're only getting 1/2 for doing ALL the work ...

I think the problem here is that your friend just assumed your part would be an arbitrary percentage of the quote without actually estimating what your actual costs would be including profit.

If he had come to you first and asked you to bid and then went back to the client with his own markup then all would be well (it would be up to the client to say negotiate with him on the lump).

You should quote your friend on what you normally would charge including your markup for profit if you hadn't known what his quote would be and then stick to it. Itemize your quote so that your friend knows the basis of your portion (including your markup).

Then it comes down to negotiation. If your friend doesn't think he is getting enough markup he is free to explore alternatives.

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. The most your friend should receieve is between $500-1000 if you're doing everything.

Your equip, your expertise, and your sweat is going to make or break this vid. If he's giving you less than half, then he shouldn't expect anything thing more than using your equipment and your time shooting the vid....He should do the editing and script adjustments.....

If you need the $$ you should do it though....lol

I told the friend that I had no problem taking on that job. We then got into a discussion of compensation. Before I ever said a word, my friend stated that he wanted to "pay me well for the work....but not like, half or anything." My first response to him was "why not".

"OK, but I won't take more than 90% then" would have been funny.

I'm also more hard about this, I think: If *you do the job, *you need to get paid.
And more then half, really, if you do everything?

That's my opinion.

i know these guys. They have a lot of bright ideas, but no clues how to realize them.
They want you to do the job, and them to get the money.
If there is a problem, you will be responsible (after all you do the job).
If something goes wrong, it will not be their fault, and if you have to provide more hours to than planned, you will have to do it for free (and believe me, the will be some), because they fix the price with the customer and they cannot change it.
And if the customer discover that the service was overpriced, guess what name will pop up (yours obviously), and if customer is happy ? (he will take care that his name to be on the top).
Anyway, providing a quotation for a job to a customer, without having the ressource is pretty stupid, and counting on people that have a garage full of equipement to provide it for free is even more stupid.
Stay away from these guys, they are just trouble....

Here's a way to break it down for your friend. 2 days of shooting @ $500 per day with your own gear is a bargain. $1000.00

Editing time $100.00 per finished minute. A 10 minute dvd for the client = $1000.00

$50.00 per hour for Script revisions, meeting with clients and phone and scheduling time. You figure a good 10 hours of that = $500.00

If you include gas, meals and so on, tack on another $100.00

Total
$2,600. That's half and that's reasonable.

If you present it to him this way he might agree to splitting the $5000 in half.

If not he should do it himself. Realistically he's gonna have a tough time getting the shoot done for less than $2500 and having it come out as good as he and the client expect it to be.

Mark

So, does anyone think that I am being unreasonable?No. He was trying to suck you in, and who knows if you would have received any money at the end.

hmm.. finders fees...

i usually allocate 5-10% of the final payment (not the retainer) for this, however usually when this happens we take into account the future of the relationship. ie if we have both refered work back and forth, then we dont pay a finders fee.

If ur friend was smart, he'd hire you outright for the 2 days, then claim those costs back on tax as an expense

I don't think you were being unreasonable. I also, don't think he was being unreasonable.

I think the mistake was that he told you how much he was getting for the job. What he should have done was negotiate with you by getting your price for the job, then you would have been happy because you got what you wanted, he would have been happy with his cut.

However, it does sound as if there was some potential misrepresentation on his part. He sold a client a job, presumably under his name, then he does a switch? If there were a problem who would the client go to? You, or your friend?

Hopefully you guys are still friends with no hard feelings.

The wedding video business operates like most other consumer service businesses (Collision Repair, etc.): $60/Hour billed to client. Employees are paid $8 to $15 hour. The rest is overhead and profit for the owner. When someone is accustomed to doing business a certain way with certain mark-ups, it's probably hard for them to accept a smaller margin by paying a seasoned professional a fair rate.

I hate people like this... if you cant do a job, refer it to me and I will return the favor. I dont care about having middlemen in high places, that is fine but LET ME BUDGET IT. I do commercials all the time for $5k that the end client is paying $20K for. I dont care because I budget it at $5K and make good money and the middleman production company has to deal with the client, not me. They collect the money, have the high end decks for mastering, have a building, employees, etc.

What I simply cannot stand is another freelancer expecting a cut. If someone contacted me and offerred $1000 for shooting on a day when I cannot do it, I will hook one of my buddies up, the thought of taking a cut for nothing is ludicrous in this situation. I suspect I refer away $5k to $8k of work per month but it all comes around!



ash =o)

Here's a way to break it down for your friend. 2 days of shooting @ $500 per day with your own gear is a bargain. $1000.00

Editing time $100.00 per finished minute. A 10 minute dvd for the client = $1000.00

$50.00 per hour for Script revisions, meeting with clients and phone and scheduling time. You figure a good 10 hours of that = $500.00

If you include gas, meals and so on, tack on another $100.00

Total
$2,600. That's half and that's reasonable.


Mark

From a relative newbie's perspective, this strikes me as the fairest deal. Doing ALL the work for half - or less - of the $$ strikes me as "being taken advantage of." Being somewhat new to the business side of this, I admit I work for very little $$, but I'm still trading experience & exposure for little/no pay.

My worst example: was asked to serve as 3rd cam on a shoot that spanned 1 night of rehearsal, 2 nights of performance, and approx. 12 hours total time. Idea was to give me experience and prove to producer what I could do, with understanding my tapes would only be used if 2nd cam's weren't up to snuff. After shooting, was told my work was more useable than 2nd cam, but the client didn't have budget for a DVD of the full performance. Bottom line, after being told my work was better than 2nd cam and that I'd get about $400, I ended up with nothing...a somewhat expensive newbie lesson. I did get my tapes back, but only after about 2 weeks, so I'm not sure they weren't used or copied before then. I guess I gotta start taking on more by myself and learn the ropes the hard way.

Yeah it's very weird that someone would quote a price based on thin air assumptions knowing he can't do the job himself and then later on offer a fellow videographer "some" compensation for doing it in his place (and I assume he'd be taking credit and copyright) based on what he'd like to get out of it, regardless of said videographer's rates.

Doesn't seem like much of a friend to me, at least not a business savy one. I'd stay away from such "partnership".

Or maybe like it has been suggested you just quote him based on your rates for a work-for-hire type relationship and let him assume risks and financial responsability of getting it done (that and dealing with the client's mood swings and indecisions).

I think what happened is your(so called)Buddy had already spent the money, in his mind, and had a hard time letting go of that thought. Fact is, sounds like you guys had agreed on a price so if you felt fairly compensated with what you guys had originally decided on- taking into account the amount of work that you were committing to- then you can't really change that. Even if he is getting more, in your opinion, than he deserves. If he didn't land the gig in the first place neither of you would be getting any richer. Of course we haven't heard his side of the argument either.

The wedding video business operates like most other consumer service businesses (Collision Repair, etc.): $60/Hour billed to client. Employees are paid $8 to $15 hour. The rest is overhead and profit for the owner.

More like most couples aren't willing to pay a professional price for a wedding video, so the owner's lucky to end up making $8-15/hour while camera operators are charging $50+/hour. It's a wacky business unless you're fortunate enough to find the handful of clients willing to spend real money.

More like most couples aren't willing to pay a professional price for a wedding video, so the owner's lucky to end up making $8-15/hour while camera operators are charging $50+/hour. It's a wacky business unless you're fortunate enough to find the handful of clients willing to spend real money.

That's true, probably comes from the fact a lot of videographers with limited skills and cheap prices have contributed to forge an image of unprofessionalism and iffy quality throughout the wedding industry.

That's why I don't do weddings at all. I don't feel like educating the client and constantly fighting prejudices while letting him know that no, uncle Bob can't do the same thing with his consumer cam for a 100 bucks, is worth it to me.

I prefer the cold but professional and well paid environement of corporate videography (no, I have no soul).

He shouldn't have told you that he was making 5K in the first place. That was his biggest mistake, and it's none of your business anyway.

When hiring a subcontractor, I give them the details and then allow them to give me a quote for their services. I never let them speak directly to my client. They are working for ME, not my client.

I would never "hand-over" a gig to someone. You should always maintain control of the situation by acting as the liaison between the client and the contractor.

If contact is necessary between my client & my contractor, I ask that my contractors not hand out any business cards or sell themselves as an independent production company. I have already been on both sides of the fence with similar situations and it's really uncomfortable if not handled honestly & ethically.

Bottom line is that you are being offered a job, quote him what you feel the job is worth.

He shouldn't have told you that he was making 5K in the first place. That was his biggest mistake, and it's none of your business anyway.

When hiring a subcontractor, I give them the details and then allow them to give me a quote for their services. I never let them speak directly to my client. They are working for ME, not my client.

I would never "hand-over" a gig to someone. You should always maintain control of the situation by acting as the liaison between the client and the contractor.

If contact is necessary between my client & my contractor, I ask that my contractors not hand out any business cards or sell themselves as an independent production company. I have already been on both sides of the fence with similar situations and it's really uncomfortable if not handled honestly & ethically.

Bottom line is that you are being offered a job, quote him what you feel the job is worth.

Wow, somebody woke up on the wrong side of the coffin.

Anyway, the reason that I knew the price he quoted, was that before he got the job (and before he asked me to do it); he asked my opinion on what to charge the client (my suggestion was higher than the 5K).

Now, I understand that you wouldn't hand over the job to someone else, but we aren't talking about you. I knew the price beforehand, and he DID want to hand the project over - from pre-production through final distribution.

Wow, somebody woke up on the wrong side of the coffin.

Anyway, the reason that I knew the price he quoted, was that before he got the job (and before he asked me to do it); he asked my opinion on what to charge the client (my suggestion was higher than the 5K).

Now, I understand that you wouldn't hand over the job to someone else, but we aren't talking about you. I knew the price beforehand, and he DID want to hand the project over - from pre-production through final distribution.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound angry. This whole situation is strange to me. This friend completely misrepresented himself to a client by offering services that he had no idea how to provide, so much to the point that he is willing to hand the gig completely over to you. For the sake of your friends reputation, he should learn when to say NO.