I realise that there's another place for this topic, but I'm wondering if anyone has had any luck with tapeless acquisition specifically from the H1. I have a job coming up that would be made much easier if I could use one of these devices (tape backup, of course)...

I'm concerned about reliability and ease of use - has it gotten any better?... battery doesn't bother me because I use Anton Bauers and they make a power tap for the Firestore.

I've got 3 FS4-Pros and 3 XLH1s and haven't really had significant problems. In may, I did a three week period of shooting every day, about 800 clips total, and overall was satisfied.

I was recording in syncroslave, and the only real issue I ran into was that occasionally the FS4Pro wouldn't actually roll when I hit record on the camera after being hooked up. If it worked once, it would work fine for as long as the camera and FS4 stayed on. When it wasn't working, powering both off, unplugging the firewire from both devices, then hooking everything back up usually solved it.

Anyways, yes, it works well enough. Just get in the habit of doublechecking that the counter on the FS4 is actually rolling after you hit record and you'll be fine.

Matt from Focus posted that the update to support Quicktime HDV is still in the pipeline as well, which will make my workflow a lot easier.

Focus makes the FS-C for the XL-H1. They said the quicktime HDV compatability should be available within the month.

Focus makes the FS-C for the XL-H1. They said the quicktime HDV compatability should be available within the month.

Does this mean you could dump files recorded on the firestore directly into a fcp timeline, without having to go through the conversion software mt2 files require?

I've used the CitiDisk HDV for about half a year. Have not had problems, but the device does not play back the footage(s) to the EVF. Neither time code is stored.

The m2t files can be directly transferred to PPro 2.0 timeline assuming one has installed the Canon update from www.adobe.com, but the first frame is not shown properly. Still, I convert the m2t files to to Cineform HD files for editing.

Along these lines,
Now that Console is available from Canon - Either a PC or an IntelMacbook can run it -
So you could visibly tweak the image to purfection, while capturing it into your laptop,
would 24f work with this?
I do this now with HDVxDV but I cant monitor the footage in real time (which I need for critical focus from the 35mm adapter)

I know it is a bit off topic,
but the Firestore 80g and a Macbook with an 80g hard drive are the same price

Does this mean you could dump files recorded on the firestore directly into a fcp timeline, without having to go through the conversion software mt2 files require?

Yep, straight to FCP.

So you could visibly tweak the image to purfection, while capturing it into your laptop, would 24f work with this?

I would expect the console software would support 24/30p, but FCP still has no native support for progressive. So unless you run to another NLE, I think your stuck with 60i

Brian,
You can't dump 24f off the firestore right into FCP,
can you?

I know 24f isn't supported yet in FCP (hopefully after the 7th of August)
that's why i was hoping the Console would alllow somekind of 24f capture (to Qt)
.m2t files can be converted with mPegstreamclip = but that's an extra step in what's already a pain in theass

No, 60i is the only frame rate supported by Apple right now. So thats your only option until the next release. Since Firestore would be using apples HDV codec, I dont expect it would even record those frame rates until the next version.

but 60i will drop right into FCP like a charm (when its released).

Even if you recorded 24f in console, you would be stuck once you got to FCP. If you use programs like Lumiere, it just converts it to 60i anyway, so it pretty much defeats the purpose.

I can not get my FS4-ProHD that I got as the NAB Package deal to record from our H1.
We followed the Upgrade Instructions using the fs4.bin file for the upgrade and it appeared to install per the instructions.

Set up the Firestore to HD Recorder and have the H1 in HDV 60i mode with a tape in the transport. No matter if the Firestore is in SynchroSlave or Manual mode I can not get the Firestore to record anything as indicated by the counter not moving.

It's as if the Firestore and the H1 are not communicating. I even tried a different firewire cable and still no go.

Help!

You've got the camera set with DV control enabled right? Try doing a tapeless record - make sure the FS4pro is in tapeless mode, hit record on the camera, and see if anything changes on the FS4pro screen. If it looks like it's gone into record, but the counter isn't moving, try shutting everything off, pulling the firewire cable off both the camera and the FS4, hooking everything back up, powering on the camera, then the FS4pro, and try again. That's what it takes for mine to record properly every now and again. Otherwise, you may need to talk to Focus about it.

Thanks Colin:

Enabled DV Control, shut both units off and removed firewire, reinstalled firewire, turned camera on, turned firestore on - same thing - no recording to the firestore.

Then tried "Tapeless" recording and still nothing.

Really frustrating.

Isnt the FS-C Designed for the H1 specially?

anyway
Have you tried manually recording with the record button on the firestore?

At least if that records you can narrow down where your problem lies.

The FS-C, at least from what I was told at the NAB booth, is just an FS4Pro with a bigger drive and a mounting kit designed for the XL-H1.

John - You might could try setting everything to SD (the camera and the FS4) to see if it works that way, at least to narrow it down. Otherwise, it sounds like you might need to give Focus a call.

Brian - Yes, tried just recording in the Manual mode using the Firestore button controls - it was still a no go.

Colin - I will try setting the H1 and the Firestore for DV recording (vs. HDV) and see if anything changes.

It seems like there is some setting on the H1 or the Firestore that I am missing or my upgrade process did not work.

Thanks to both of you for trying to help

I'm gathering that, in general, this technology isn't there yet - in the sense that it can be relied upon in a professional situation.

I, for one, do not enjoy the embarrassment that is inevitable when I have to fool around with a piece of equipment - on other people's time - trying to get it to work properly because it isn't "user friendly"... There is no better way to get a reputation as a chump...

Too bad, it would be nice to have a tapeless answer, but it looks like I'll have to wait a while...

I'm hoping that there's a portable light weight HD-SDI device waiting in the wings.

Amen Steve,

This is what everybody is waiting for...
Whomever offers the first reasonable solution is going to hit Gold
(esp with the new Canon cameras too)

I believe that I can help here.

I have been testing my XL H1 with the NAB version of FS-4 Pro HD.

This was originally a FS-4 Pro, then upgraded via the latest software to FS-4 Pro HD as required.

I have been testing the two units for the past two hours.

Using the latest version of the manual, it states that you should plug in the cables into both units.
(As a side note, the 6 pin firewire conntector goes into DV I/O and must not be in Computer I/O for recording from the camera.)

Then the manual states that you should power on the camera, then the FS-4.

I found that this does not work. The unit will not record. It goes into record mode but the counter does not move, and it does not record.

If I power up the XL H1 first, then the FS-4, then I can then cycle the power on the XL H1, and then it will work.

When it does work, the counter will increment on the FS-4.

I use the "sync" mode, so there should be a "Y" in the second position of the screen, in the upper left area.

When the recording is done, there should be some activity on the FS-4. This is a series of bars (a progress bar) that goes across the bottom of the screen as a recording is finalized.

Please try this and report back.

Based on my testing, once I got it to work, it continued to work fine.

So, from now on, I will do a short test recording before any actual live work.

I have not had any trouble transferring the files to my computer using the manuals procedures.

Dan, yes, this is the way it worked here, too.

Then we grilled the FS-4 Pro HD after connection the wrong firewire plug with the PC.

On our device both firewird plugs, the one for the cam and the one for the PC, are the same size (the big ones), directly located next to each other. And my colleague didn't exactly check which one he used, only after it started to smell like burned circuits.

A major design failure on this device if you ask me.

Too many "oopses" and not enough "yeahs" if you ask me...

Firestore (and many others as a matter of fact) needs to understand that professionals actually depend on their equipment to work when it's needed - and quickly... It's often too much of a hassle for me to have to check and be sure I've got the right Scene File up and the right filter in the matte box - I do not need any hoops to jump thru...

Again, too bad, woulda been a nice labor saver for my next job.. But since I've been shooting HDV daily for over 7 months now without a single drop-out, I can live with tape a little longer...

Dear Steve,

I would not give up so soon on the Firestore.

Once I determined that the manual's order of power-up was wrong, at least for the XL H1, it has worked fine, albiet for under 10 more tries. I will be doing some more testing later.

I really do like to be able to record for longer than one tapes length, usually 63 minutes. This can be a big help in event videos, as you well know.

I also like to have a backup in case there is trouble with the tape.

Connecting the FS-4 up to a computer, and uploading the files is very easy, and much quicker than capturing the files.

Steve, I will be happy to mail you mine, if you wish to test one for a while.

Other features are nice, such as being able to record x number of secords prior to hitting the record button. This may come in handy for event videos.

Another feature is time-lapse recording, although I have not tried it yet.

Dan, thanx for the offer, it is very generous of you. I have a pretty good working relationship with the dealer that I buy my equipment from (an advantage of not buying from box stores). I am waiting for an update from them relative to using the Firestore with the equipment I use (H1, of course, and FCP) - there is apparently a software update.

I posted this question initially in the XL H1 forum because I wanted to hear from people that actually use the camera that I have, and I do appreciate the responses that have been posted here...

I am always cautious about utilizing new technology... I make documentaries where it is sometimes necessary to be up and running while jumping out of a car, or do an interview with a person who has begrudgingly alloted only 10 minutes and is not likely patient while I get set up... These are the concerns that drive my decision making, and I don't like to be the one doing the "beta" testing...

Thanx again, I may take you up on your offer if you're not careful...

Well the story for the Firestore and us gets worse!
Having given up on the Firestore for a shoot this past weekend, we shot HDV directly to tape in 60i mode.

Then went to capture the tapes with the same Canopus Edius program that worked fine before and now I can not get the camera to connect to the computer. Tried every method of shutting both computer and cam down, unplugging firewire from both, startup, plug in camera, then into computer and visa versa - nada - it's as if the H1's firewire port/circuit is not working.

One thing noted that I don't remember happening before is that while the tape is loaded and the H1 is in Playback mode, as soon as the firewire is plugged into the computer, a flashing "HDV in" and the channel "1/2" also starts flashing on and off. Uplug the firewire cable from the H1 or computer and the flashing stops. I have tried resetting the menu >Playback>Signal>HDV (and also Auto) and still get the flashing messages.

Now I am in real trouble. I have 2 projects backed up on delivery. And we are supposed to shoot a 10 min. short screenplay winner for a film festival in a couple of weeks. And I can't get anything out of the H1's firewire port which I had no trouble with until I tried to use the Firestore4-ProHD.

Will a trip to Canon Irvine in person result in getting fast service (I've registered the camera and joined the XL Club which is supposed to put you higher in the cue.)

The good news is that Canon is very fast in there service dept, at least they have been for me in the past...

I would recommend finding another sollution for playing back your tapes, as a back up at least.. the Sony deck works well..

as for the FireStore burning out something in the firewire port, that seems odd to me - more likely a glitch at Canon's end - I've had several firewire problems over the years with decks - I'm sure you've tried other cables, good luck..

Is the fact that I get a flashing message "HDV In" and flashing audio channel "1/2" whenever the firewire is connected between cam and computer and then stops flashing when the firewire is disconnected from computer indicate something like a wrong setting?

I have set the Playback>Signal setup to both "HDV" and then "Auto".

Is there something I am missing in my setup?

I have tried to duplicate your setup.

I am in VCR/Play mode.

I have a tape in the XL H1 that was recorded in HDV.

I have a 4 pin to 4 pin firewire cable connected from the computer to the XL H1.

I then turn on the H1.


Once the H1 is on, I press Menu and select "Signal Setup".

My Playback STD (under Signal Setup) is greyed out, as is HD Down Conv.

After I get out of the menus, I see HDV/DV IN and it is not flashing, nor is CH1/2.

If I turn off the H1, remove the firewire cable and power back up, then I can change
the Playback STD and HD Down Conv.

But when the firewire is connected and my computer is active I can not change these settings (and I am in VCR/Play mode).


My settings, which are visable when I do not have a firewire connection, are

Playback STD: Auto
AV-DV: OFF
HD Down Conv: Off

My settings, which are greyed out when I do have a firewire connection, are

Playback STD: ---
HD Down Conv: ---

I hope this helps.

Thanks much Dan!

It helps in that it tells me something is wrong I think with my camera after the FS-4ProHD attempt.

So darned wierd - everything was working fine with connection between edit bay computer and 67" Samsung DLP with firewire input. After Firestore attempt neither the computer nor the DLP will see the connection to the H1.

For what it's worth - beware when you make your first attempt with connecting the Firestore FS-4ProHD .... be sure you have some spare time between a need for the H1.

After a trip to Canon Service - I will post on the culprit.

I've gone over and over the setup menus till I am crazed - nothing I see is wrong.

Thanks to all who have offered their help... great forum!

John,

I just sent you a private email with my phone number.

Please call me if you wish.

Dan

John,

I recommend that you do the following before you send in your camera.

First call Canon support for assistance. If they can not help you, then consider performing a system reset on your XL H1. I would discuss this with Canon support before resetting your camera.

1. Copy all of your presets to a SD card.

2. Press the reset button on the XL H1.

This is located on the back side of the hand hold area of the camera.
You will have to remove the lens to access the reset button.

3. Try again to use firewire to connect to your computer.

I hope this helps.

John,

Just to be certain, could you please try connecting to your computer again.

I want to be absolutely certain that your are in VCR/Play mode and not the remote control mode. Since the remote control mode is at the end of the dial, just like the VCR/Play position was on the XL1/Xl1s, I feel that this is an easy mistake to make.

I have a hard time believing that your XL H1 could be hurt by connecting a firewire and/or FS-4 to it. I assume that you plugged the 6-pin end of the firewire cable into the Data I/O and not the computer I/O.

So, I feel it is worth a quick test again to see it your camera is ok.

Have you called Canon?

Thanks Dan:
Tried all your helpful suggestions including trying to connect to another edit computer and the H1 just is not seen by anything.

Called Canon Support today and learned that the flashing "HDV/DV In" indicates that the "DV Section has gone bad". This "section" is what is involved with the HDV-DV firewire port.

The fact that the DV section worked fine prior to the first attempt to use the Firestore4-ProHD and did not work immediately thereafter would seem a good indicator of the source of the problem.

But to be fair to the Firestore, when support was asked if they were seeing similar failures due to the Firestore the answer was no - no repetitive Firestore caused failures.

As I am now behind the eight-ball I intend on hand-delivering the H1 and hopefully will be able to talk the service center into trying the Firestore to see if they can either get it to work or replicate what may have caused the problem.

The one thing that the support tech at Canon did say was that they H1 should always be turned off when connecting or disconnecting from the firewire to/from the firewire port as there is live power and that can cause electrical circuit damage. I tend to disagree as I was always under the impression that a 4-pin IEEE1394 connection (that is what is on the H1) does not carry electric power. Only 6-pin firewire connectors are capable of power - that is what the extra 2 pins on the 6-pin connector are for. But for what it's worth - that is the cautionary advice of the Canon support tech - always turn off the H1 prior to making any connection or disconnection from the firewire port.

And thank you all for your help with this trying mess - especially Dan Keaton.

Dear John,

Thanks for the kind words.

Good luck on getting you XL H1 fixed.

I too feel that the requirement to turn it off is overkill for the 4-pin to 4-pin cable. However, I always do this anyway as a precaution.

When you connected your XL H1 to the Firestore, you did use a 6-pin to 4-pin cable. I do not know if the FS-4 provides power over the cable or not. It seems to me that there is no valid reason to provide power from the FS-4, but this is only speculation.

Yes - I used the 6-pin to 4-pin that came with the Firestore.

And since the 4-pin is at the Camera end, I don't think there is any live power at the camera as there is no power circuit at the 4 pin end.

UPDATE: Dead Firewire Circuitry
Flew to So Cal-USA - Canon Irvine Service Center to expedite H1 repair as I am 2 projects backed up and an upcoming 1 week shoot hanging in the balance.

Must say that the Canon Irvine Express Service Center folks are top notch - very customer oriented and caring.

The customer service rep, after hearing the problem, used a pin light and found one of the firewire pins on the H1 was broken and missing. The estimated fix was $240. She also confirmed that there was no rash of Firestore created failures.

When I returned to my car, finding the coincidence of after the the first time I used the Firestore the H1 could no longer connect via firewire too much to accept, I got the 6-pin to 4-pin cable that came with the Firestore and sure enough, the 4-pin end had a buggered up internal connector that probably broke the H1 firewire pin. I tend to think that was the way the cable came as I unpacked the cable from it's original box just prior to connection to the H1.
But I think trying to prove it will be more trouble than the $240 repair not to mention the many hours lost on this mystery.

Anyway - thought I'd report back for those I've caused worry that they Firestore may have caused problems - it was a funky cable connector that came with the Firestore - not the Firestore unit itself.

Thanks again to all who offered help especially Dan Keaton.

P.S. The service rep repeated that power to the camcorder should be shut off BEFORE connecting or disconnecting the 4-pin firewire (something I don't understand as there are no power pins - but I will take their advice.)

P.S. The service rep repeated that power to the camcorder should be shut off BEFORE connecting or disconnecting the 4-pin firewire (something I don't understand as there are no power pins - but I will take their advice.)

I will follow their advice, but I suspect this is overly cautious. It is my understanding that both USB and Firewire were designed to plug and unplug while powered, including both the 4 pin and 6 pin versions of Firewire.

Best,
Christopher

Dear John,

Thank you for the update. It is nice to know what caused the problem.

Yesterday, I installed Canon's Console Software.

In their written instructions, they repeatedly state that you should power on the camera first, then connect the Firewire cable.

Also, they state that you do not have to power down the compter to remove the firewire cable from the computer.

They do caution you not to remove the firewire cable while to connection is active. This is to prevent data corruption and not physical damage.

WOW! The Canon Factory Service Center in Irvine, CA was fantastic.
Service Rep (Cynthia) was very professional, sharp, and totally customer oriented. They repaired my H1 in 1 single day.

After picking up the unit which required their replacing the HDV/DV pcb jack (the firewire port), the H1 is detected by my laptop and captures fine.

Problem solved.

I will try the Firestore again (WITH A DIFFERENT CABLE) and report back.

Thanks Canon Irvine Service Center - could not ask for better service - they are big reason for me to lean toward Canon products in the future!

Well - at long last!

With the recent upgraded 4s.bin patch from Focus Enhancement (announced on this forum's Focus Enhancement section) installed, I was able to record 60i HDV to the Firestore and download it to an edit computer.

The test files worked well in Edius 3.62. I converted the m2t files to the CanopusHQ intermediary for editing and all worked fine.

So much quicker than capturing from tape.

Now if we only could capture HDV 24f to the Firestore. Any ideas?

If the Firestore continues to work without hitches, it will be a great timesaver and will find regular use for my workflow.

You can actually capture 24f, you just have to do it in M2T mode. I've successfully captured 24f in M2T mode, then using MpegStreamclip to convert it to 24p HDV Quicktime for use in FCP. A bit circuitous, but doable until another update from Focus.

John - I'm curious where you converted the .m2t's to Canopus HQ?

Do you copy the .m2t files from the Firestore onto your computer, then use procoder to convert to HQ, then import to Edius?

I had Edius 3.61 and have upgraded to 4.03 (SP card). I have the newest Focus firmware and the Canon's firmware is updated as well. Although the interaction between the firestore and the Canon is the best I've seen so far (various updates), I still have trouble when placing 'raw' FS4 .m2t's on an Edius timeline. Some are fine, and some are just corrupt (or appear corrupt in Edius - sometimes locks up the app). I think it's a problem that Focus has acknowledged - a matter of how Edius reads the timecode or something(?).

Big fan of Edius and the FS4's have been bulletproof in SD mode. It's been upsetting, since Edius works with just about anything.

I'd like to know if your transcoding/converting routine somehow seams up the issues. It's an extra step, but it's better than nothing. I can't use the FS4's for HD, unless it's for an absolute long-shot backup - can't trust the files so far.

Any details you have - especially if it can be a batch process are most appreciated. I'd also like to get a sense of the times involved (2x realtime, realtime, time-consuming, etc).

Thanks very much,
Shawn

Colin: Be it known that I am not a computer person, so excuse me if I seem dense.. I'm an old-school filmmaker who was still editing on a Moviola 12 years ago and didn't even own a computer...

I am working with an agency on a series of commercials and they have specifically requested a 24p look (they wanted film originally, but the client wouldn't spring for the extra budget).

I want to shoot 24f, record to an FS-C, and edit in FCP... I don't even know what "MT2 mode" is when it's home, or how to use Streamclip effectively (I just looked at their website, but am reluctant to download it unless I really need it).. what advice can you offer, and what additional software do I need?

Sorry if this is redundant and has been discussed elsewhere, but this forum is getting so dense that it's difficult to find specific useful info... One of you should write a book, although it would probably be obsolete before the ink dries... Steve Rosen

First let me say that I have only recorded 2 each 20 sec. test files using the Synchro-Slave mode in 60i HDV.

(Steve - all HDV files have the file extension .m2t just like quicktime files have an .mov file extension - .m2t is the raw HDV file - it stands for Mpeg2 transport stream for the HDV standard).

I set the Firestore to record HDV (m2t) and then set the Firestore to HDD>DD mode, connected to computer, pressed Enable and the computer saw the Firestore as another drive. I dragged the files from the Firestore to a drive on the computer. I opened up and Edius 1080/60i project and brought the 2 HDV/m2t files into the Edius bin and then to the timeline. Due to the 15 GroupOfPictures (GOP) of the m2t files, they are not the easiest to edit with in their native form but can be done - I don't recommend it though.

I then opened up Procoder 2 (a transcoding program from Canopus/Grass Valley). The latest patch version allows Procoder to transcode the HDV/m2t file in CanopusHQ. HQ takes the raw HDV file with it's clunky GOP structure and makes them into single intraframe files which edit easily (complete with filters and compositing, etc) with beautiful results.

Procoder can be set up to make a "Watch Folder" that can be used to automatically convert any HDV/m2t files that are sent to it.

As I said earlier, I will have to do a lot more recording to the Firestore before I can report it's stability and freedom from problems. I've only just now begun. But the results are very promising as far as being a huge time saver.

Now if they would just come out with a portable HD-SDI solution ;>}

John,

Thanks for the workflow. I'll be very interested to hear what you run into will more files, longer files, etc. The files recorded as synchro-slave seem to be the most stable, but I still don't put them at 100%.

Additionally, in SD mode I like to put the firestore in a local/free-run mode - so it just does a global recording around an event (like a long tape recorder) - then I punch record in/out whenever something critical is happening, recording those sections to tape, P2, etc. Works very well in SD - however, it's very problematic in the FS4 HD mode. Edius really balks at some of the files, hangs up, etc. Even in version 4 (I have Edius 4.03 with the SP card)

Would like to see what your experiences are overall as you continue to test.

I think I'm going to experiment a bit, and put the raw .m2t files on the computer (as always), and then try to transcode them to HQ using procoder - bypassing Edius/timeline, etc. If that works, hopefully there is a stable HQ copy of each file that I can load up into an Edius timline, and whiz away at it like everything else. I'd be interested to see if that works for you as well.

Last I heard, Focus was working on things - but no timeframe, etc. Still hard to trust the HD mode, although the interaction with H1 is much better with firmware updates on both DTE & the camera. FS4 SD has been very reliable. Seems like the FS100 has been quite good as well - so I think this is all a GOP/timecode issue.