The key point here is that if you have an issue, please take the steps needed to get your reseller and possibly JVC involved in finding a solution. Sometimes, it's necessary to take a step beyond just posting the problem on a forum.

Indeed it is Carl. But I think the problem is that people have become so accustomed to bad customer service in all types of industry, that they come to the internet first these days to see if they are alone or part of a bigger problem.

I started doing that back in 2001 when I learned that our 2001 year model vehicle had a flaw which created binding and popping from the steering column. Of course the dealer tried to say, "We've never heard of this problem." When I handed him the printout of the internet thread with many posts from all over the country describing the exact same issue, he had to do some fast backpeddling. He just didn't want to fix our vehicle under warranty which is sad.

So once again Carl, I want to commend you and your company for maintaining a strong presence here. Even with these issues, your customers feel they are being taken care of after the sale and that's rare these days.

-gb-

Indeed it is Carl. But I think the problem is that people have become so accustomed to bad customer service in all types of industry, that they come to the internet first these days to see if they are alone or part of a bigger problem.

I started doing that back in 2001 when I learned that our 2001 year model vehicle had a flaw which created binding and popping from the steering column. Of course the dealer tried to say, "We've never heard of this problem." When I handed him the printout of the internet thread with many posts from all over the country describing the exact same issue, he had to do some fast backpeddling. He just didn't want to fix our vehicle under warranty which is sad.

So once again Carl, I want to commend you and your company for maintaining a strong presence here. Even with these issues, your customers feel they are being taken care of after the sale and that's rare these days.

-gb-
I feel the same way. The first thing I do when I have a problem is search the Internet and look threw these boards. If I don't get the answer I am looking for, then I post. These threads have been lifesavers for me, and they have always worked for me in the past. Why should I not post?

Thank you Carl for your help and I will be sure to remember option #3 when all else fails.

This problem is far from simple and my main goal at this point is to find a way around it. If this means buying $10 tapes or getting a replacement then so be it. I have been shooting for 3 days now since the bad tape event and I have had pretty good results with only a few glitches. I even had one perfect tape! The scary part about this problem is how inconsistent it is.

I am trying some new ProHD tape and I hope that solves my problem. From what other users have said regarding the ProHD tapes, it sounds to me like they should be just as bad or worse then what I am currently using.

I am really interested in knowing how many hd100 users have ZERO tape issues. I would like to hear their workflow and what tape brands they use. For all I know, we could have a bunch of lemons. I would be happy as heck to hear that this has not been a problem for the bulk of hd100 users.

Regardless, I hope that we can soon go back to shooting our hd100s with confidence.

Also try repacking the tape before use. We found that it helps improve our dropouts and misc. glitching due to tape stock sitting around (and different climate conditions). I'm not claiming that it will eliminate the green / blue screen glitches, but it has all but removed 90% of the occasional crap we ran into, and we have only used MQ tapes from day one.

Also try repacking the tape before use. We found that it helps improve our dropouts and misc. glitching due to tape stock sitting around (and different climate conditions). I'm not claiming that it will eliminate the green / blue screen glitches, but it has all but removed 90% of the occasional crap we ran into, and we have only used MQ tapes from day one.

What exactly is repacking the tape? Fastforwarding the entire tape/rewind back to start? Thanks for any advise.

johnevilgeniusentertainment.com

That's correct John. :)

That's correct John. :)
Would this work with one of those rewinders or do you have to use the camera?

A rewinder would be ideal.

In the end, it is being resolved though, without having to make 20 calls, or threaten anybody. That is nice.

My biggest compliments go to Tapeworks Texas, the dealer. After posting my symptoms here, I get a call from Jason, the one who sold me the cam. He wanted to know what was up with the cam, and tried his best to find an answer. The fact that this all coinsided with Carl Hick's vacation didn't make it easier, but he found the right techs, and said they'd switch it out. Another point I am unused to; he said they would send the replacement with a shipping label for mine! No credit card charge, no having to pay to ship it back before getting the replacement... all above and beyond. I wish more folk would take their cue from this!

Keith -

When did you hear that your HD100U would be replaced under the Perfect Experience program?

Not a bad idea.

I will have to try that soon. These are brand new cameras but I guess it couldn't hurt.

I will have to research the best cleaning tape for this best.


Jonathan, if your camera's are new, and you have been using the same tape without changing manufacturer's (hopefully JVC MDV63PROHD) then you should not have to clean your heads.

If you need to clean your heads, use Pansonic's MDV12CL cleaning tape.

Scott Cantrell
TapeWorks Texas Inc - HDVinfo Sponser

Keith -

When did you hear that your HD100U would be replaced under the Perfect Experience program?

Actually, I never heard of that program. My salesman went through all the legwork for me, looked at the posted footage, and contacted the right folks at JVC to determine the issue. The one support person I spoke with told me to send it back to the dealer. The dealer sent the new cam with a prepaid label.

And talk about timing? The new cam just showed up a little bit ago. As I was on my way towards the office to open the box, my pocket starts ringing. It's Scott at Tapeworks, calling to check on the delivery status, even though it wasn't due to arrive until tomorrow. Cross your fingers, toes, legs, whatever else you are able to cross, and knock on wood, or simulated wood grain. I'm charging up and will try it out tonight and tomorrow.

Hi Keith - My personal experience with the HD100 has been virtually perfect and I'm hoping your experiences with the replacement camera are more successful.

Please consider one point: "Dropouts" in MPEG-encoded recordings have a very different character than dropouts in analog or DV recording systems. MPEG uses long GOP recording, meaning that compression is spread over many frames (15 in Sony's case, 6 in JVC's case). Loss of an "I" frame can corrupt the subsequent 14 (or 5) frames. Loss of a "P" (predictive) frame can cause loss of motion vectors, resulting in "fractured" frames (examples posted recently elsewhere on dvinfo.com).

HDV cameras and decks have powerful error correction and error concealment technology that, within limits, compensate for flaws. But once HDV data is spooled out to an NLE, the NLE's error correction / concealment takes over. Some NLE's are better than others in this area, which may be why some people see errors displayed on their NLE that they do not see during tape playback via a camera or deck.

Visible "glitches" during tape playback may mean the camera or deck is struggling to conceal gross errors. In this case, I have found the tape stock is frequently the source of the problem. I personally have had good experience with Panasonic and JVC tape stock, but even the best brands can and DO have occasional bad "batches". During manufacture, individual tapes are slit from a huge sheet (called a "web"). From experience, if one tape from a box of a dozen has problems, there is a high probability ALL the tapes from that box have the same problems. I've found it's best to return (or abandon) the remaining tapes, buying a NEW box with a DIFFERENT run number (stamped on the master carton and each tape).

You've posted more than 30 messages detailing your unfortunate experiences and I've read them all, privately wondering if the underlying cause of your problem is the tape stock being used. As a suggestion, you may wish to consider buying completely FRESH stock to use with the new camera.

Hopefully your HD100 experiences will soon become as successful as mine.

No, I'm not an engineer. I just play one on the Internet.

Reading the Canon, Sony, JVC and Panasonic boards, it seems no HD system - including optical media and flash memory - is completely immune from data corruption. As I read this and similar HDV strings, it brings to mind a learning curve that many of us may be going through. Dropouts in MPEG recording have very different character than dropouts in DV or analog recordings. It would seem that some people may simply be experiencing what data loss can look like in MPEG recording.

For those who might claim "tapeless is the way to go", reading other forums it appears folks working with optical and flash media have their own issues. Seems the world's rarely perfect for any of us.

Though I lack universal experience, some HDV cameras check for data errors and will alert the operator of problems (pressing "return" on some cameras quickly plays a few seconds of a previously-recorded segment, including checking for data errors).

One thought possibly worth consideration, especially for "mission critical" shoots.

You know what? I really don't care what the problem is. Fact of the matter is very simple. I spent a buttload of money on a camera, with the understanding that it will work properly. I either want that camera to work, my money back, or somebody's actual head on a pike, to warn other foolish people away. Not too much to ask, is it? An "occasional' glitch is one thing, a wasted tape is unacceptable.

I just recieved the replacement yesterday, and because of bad weather, didn't get a chance to do much more than adjust menu settings. As soon as the coffee kicks in, I'll go chase the birds or something.

Please consider one point: "Dropouts" in MPEG-encoded recordings have a very different character than dropouts in analog or DV recording systems.


I'm the first to admit I haven't worked with MPEG very much, so I'm totally open to the idea that some of this stuff is my unfamiliarity with a new camera, new format, etc.

However, I did use a totally different tape stock, and got the same results.

I'm also open to the idea 'every camera has it's quirks you need to learn'. OK, what are they? If there are work arounds to the camera, things I can be aware of and account for, fine.

But it's sort of hard to use the camera when you can't count on 10 minutes of video without some major drop outs.

It's hard to interrupt the ceremony and yell 'Cut! Had a frame drop out. Can you guys go through the vow again? And prop up Uncle Fred, he hadn't passed out in the earlier footage, and I need it to match.'

It's hard to interrupt the ceremony and yell 'Cut! Had a frame drop out. Can you guys go through the vow again? And prop up Uncle Fred, he hadn't passed out in the earlier footage, and I need it to match.'

Problem is, half the time you don't even notice any issues until you go to capture the footage. It's even harder to get everybody back the next day, because last night you noticed huge gaps and need to reshoot the whole thing again.

Problem is, half the time you don't even notice any issues until you go to capture the footage. It's even harder to get everybody back the next day, because last night you noticed huge gaps and need to reshoot the whole thing again.


Hey shouldn't you be out finding a bird to chase. I WANNA KNKOW IF THE NEW ONE WORKS FOR YOU!!! I haven't been able to view any of my footage on the computer, because it's being assembled and you guys are killing me!! GO PLAY WITH THE THING!! Oh and thanks for this thread because as soon as my new editing system is up there will be TONS of test footage reviewed.

Geez... you're a bigger nag than my wife! Cut me some slack, dude, I'll get to it ;)

Oh and thanks for this thread because as soon as my new editing system is up there will be TONS of test footage reviewed.
Sweet. You had better keep that promise!

Hey shouldn't you be out finding a bird to chase. I WANNA KNKOW IF THE NEW ONE WORKS FOR YOU!!! I haven't been able to view any of my footage on the computer, because it's being assembled and you guys are killing me!! GO PLAY WITH THE THING!! Oh and thanks for this thread because as soon as my new editing system is up there will be TONS of test footage reviewed.
Ok, the first results are in- Aside from the footage looking like it had been shot by Katherine Hepburn, it looks beautiful. No corruption, no red, just very shaky extreme zooming from the shoulder. I even have some focused shots ;)

And I just recieved a callback from Jason at T.T., also eager to find out the results. We all be pleased at this point, and Jason is even tossing in a few HD tapes for the trouble! Again, you like, totally ROCK Dudes!

RE: RED FRAMES

are you using Vegas ?
Vegas uses the color red on clips/frames that have errors/corrupt (which is usually head/tails of m2t clips that have been split/cut depending on if they are 15 GOP or 6 GOP= not a big deal .. it's when the whole clip is RED you should be concerned ) ..another NLE may or may not play the same clip/frames ..

Even if I had been using Vegas, as opposed to actually using PP2, the red would not have been on the tape, unless I exported them there. But, the problem was elsewhere.

And I just found out via Jason, our cameras will be disected, making us test subjects! Yaaaaaayyy GUINEA PIGS! ;)

Ok, the first results are in- Aside from the footage looking like it had been shot by Katherine Hepburn, it looks beautiful. No corruption, no red, just very shaky extreme zooming from the shoulder. I even have some focused shots ;)

And I just recieved a callback from Jason at T.T., also eager to find out the results. We all be pleased at this point, and Jason is even tossing in a few HD tapes for the trouble! Again, you like, totally ROCK Dudes!
Yay, now we can all be happy again!

Too bad you guys live so far away, it would be cool to have some kind of party with lots of beer.

I did some freelance stuff yesterday and all the footage turned out beautiful as well.

Even if I had been using Vegas, as opposed to actually using PP2, the red would not have been on the tape, unless I exported them there. But, the problem was elsewhere.
EXACTLY!
Keith and Dennis, I have been following your "red frame" problems closely and attempting to get to the bottom of it through the information provided by you, talking with some video engineers I know (JVC and Sony specialists,) and by independent testing.

By the way, here are the four other threads that seem to discuss the same topic. These issues are much easier to solve if we maintain single threads on each topic (I should probably merge these double-posts all into one thread to avoid future cross-postings. Man, that's going to take a long time! :)
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=71554
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72137
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=72084
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=71195

Keith & Dennis, I have come to the conclusion that your problem could not have possibly been the CCDs. Even though that is what you were told by JVC tech support via TT, it just doesn't make any sense to me or the engineers I've had contact with.

There are two possible logical causes for the origination of your dropouts:

1) You have a head-clog which could probably be solved by running a head cleaning cassette.

2) You have a bad batch of tape.

Now on to the question of the "red frames." Since these red frames do not appear on the camera original tapes, and they do not appear on a m2t captured with "CapDVHS," and since both of you only see the red frames when capturing footage with dropouts within Premiere Pro 2, it seems logical to me that Premiere Pro 2 is creating the red frames everytime it encounters a dropout. Out of curiousity have you both updated the application to the latest version (http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=98&platform=Windows)?

Dennis was kind enough to capture an m2t for me to test and yes indeed there are a couple of dropouts on it causing minimal data loss on a few frames, but this doesn't cause any similar problems in other NLEs (other than the data-loss itself.)
My logical conclusion is that the culprit is partial data loss due to a dropout (clogged heads or bad batch of tape) and the problem was exacerbated by the way Premiere Pro 2 handles dropouts. Can anyone else with PP2 please test this theory if you happen to have a tape with dropouts?
Maybe it would help to post this problem on the Official Adobe PP2 forum. (http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bbe2790/)

I'm still waiting until I actually find a dropout on a tape of my own to fully test this theory. Fortunately I've used over 90 of the JVC ProHD tapes this summer without a dropout problem. "Knock on wood."
I followed procedure by running a head cleaning tape as soon as the brand-new HD100A body was taken out of the box, and I have since only used JVC tape. I also run the head cleaner once for every 10 tapes (approximately.)
As Bob Diesso explained earlier (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=517236&postcount=40), all tape stock can be victim to data loss, and unfortunately the characteristics of HDV dropouts can potentially be more disasterous for our footage than we were used to with the interframe DV codec.

I'm glad your new unit is working well for you Keith, and I suggest sticking with JVC ProHD stock, and get yourself a head-cleaning cassette.
Dennis, I hope you get your new camera soon as well and also follow the same advise. As we have discussed many times before, "cross-pollination" of tapes stocks on any camera can lead to head clogs and therefore dropouts.

Good luck.

I don't know much about how ppro2.0 handles data but I made a mistake yesterday and captured hdv-SD60p and hdv-30p within the same capture.

I captured the SD60p in a timeline designed for hdv-30p. In ppro2.0, the SD footage looked great but the hdv-30p was all totally corrupted looking with horizontal lines everywhere. This is not a problem becuase I knew that I should not have captured both SD60p and hdv-30p in the same capture session. There was nothing wrong with the original hdv-30p footage, I started a new session and it came out great as expected.

The odd thing is that when I go back to the original m2t files, the hdv-30p is downrezed to SD and it looks GREAT! Its so funny because it downrezed it perfectly but it looks completely glitched out on the ppro2.0 timeline.


So odd, maybe you guys know something about this?

When I capture using PPro2 - I get the red frames - but in Liquid Capture (I think) I didnt see any (same footage)

I assumed it was a drop frame placeholder...

When I capture using PPro2 - I get the red frames - but in Liquid Capture (I think) I didnt see any (same footage)

I assumed it was a drop frame placeholder...

Just more proof that this is a PP2 related issue.

Thanks for all the work, Tim. I'm certainly happier for the problem to be a bad batch of tapes or dirty heads than some big problem with the camera.

I do have some new JVC ProHD tapes on the way. I'll also get a head cleaning tape.

Why do you suppose the JVC engineers said it was the ccds? Did they figure just send out a replacement and keep the customers from complaining?

Also, my camera was fairly new for dirty heads, I thought. You're saying it's just a case of dirt, gunk whatever gets in there?

Not sure about that Tim. The new tape from the new cam showed nothing but beautiful but shakey footage. Also captured in PP2. It may have been the tape, might have been crud on the heads. Thing is, I don't know what it was, which is why I came here and asked "what is red and about 9 frames?" So far, there is no frame dropping/corrupted image, and best of all, no red!

No insult intended J.J. ;)

Why do you suppose the JVC engineers said it was the ccds? Did they figure just send out a replacement and keep the customers from complaining?
I don't know how they came up with CCDs. It just seems so far-fetched.

This issue has been brought to the attention of some top people at JVC. I received an email recently from Robert Mueller with a suggestion from JVC's Product Engineering Manager that the problem was probably "gross data corruption including loss of motion vectors, possibly caused by head contamination." He also mentioned that "When properly operated, the HD100 monitors data integrity ... While the GY-HD100U is no more sensitive to head contamination than other commercially available DV and HDV products, the symptoms of MPEG2 data corruption are quite different than DV errors." That's the official response.

Who knows if we will ever really find out if there was anything actually wrong with Keith's camera, but considering there are now four people who say they've seen red frames when using PP2, it seems PP2 is not friendly with dropouts.

Dennis, if you still haven't sent your camera back I'd love you to run a head cleaning cycle, use only ProHD tape, and see what happens.

The bottom line for Keith and Dennis is that you are getting brand cameras via a great dealer like Texas Tapeworks, and you will both be happy.

.....run a head cleaning cycle, use only ProHD tape, and see what happens.



Tim,
What brand of head cleaning tape would you recommend?

I imagine JVC has its own brand.

Thanks



Andrew

Drew- JVC has it's own ProHD tapes, at about $10 a pop.

Tim- as I mentioned else where, Dennis' camera and mine, are to be disected, so that they can find out what went wrong... went wrong... went wrong...

We're going to be test subjects!

Tim,
What brand of head cleaning tape would you recommend?
I imagine JVC has its own brand.
Andrew

JVC MDV12CL HEAD CLEAN FOR DIGITAL-VIDEO CAMCORDERS

Scott Cantrell
TapeWorks Texas Inc - HDVinfo Sponser

JVC MDV12CL HEAD CLEAN FOR DIGITAL-VIDEO CAMCORDERS

That's the same one I use. M-DV12CL (http://www.jvcservice.com/store/ProductDetail.asp?part=M-DV12CL)

Tim- as I mentioned else where, Dennis' camera and mine, are to be disected, so that they can find out what went wrong... went wrong... went wrong...

We're going to be test subjects!

Where the hideous truth will be discovered... the JVC GY HD100UA is made of PEOPLE!!

Unfortunately, my camera is already back at the dealers. Weren't there some other folks who got this?

Where the hideous truth will be discovered... the JVC GY HD100UA is made of PEOPLE!!


If that were true, we could have had it for dinner on Tuesday...