I've totally missed this one!! I can live with manual focus, but can I live without image stablisation!

I want to shoot indie films, mostly using a tripod, so it isn't a factor in this case.

I also want to shoot weddings. This is where I have a problem. I don't want the restriction of a tripod (except perhaps during the ceremony). My shooting style is definitly not shoulder mounted eye level stuff only - its low, its high, its swooping in, its angled - and it needs to be smooth!!

Can I do this without investing in a cumbersome rig system?

I'm seriously tempted to change my order to a HVX200, which has I believe image stablisation. HD at the present time is not an issue, so the P2 issue doesn't bother me.

Your input is needed. I've ordered a HD100, but now I'm not sure.

Thanks


Andrew

The JVC seems to have enough weight and is well enough balanced to take smooth handheld shots taken from more extreme angles. However, you won't be able to hold it over your head with a long lens and have stable shots.

If you're used to shooting MiniDV the way you handle the camera changes, but you can shoot off the shoulder with the HD 100. However, you also need to practise using it, so you're relaxed and handling the camera with a light touch.

You need image stabilizers on the MiniDv cameras because they're so light.

I honestly think going with the Panasonic is not the way to go money wise... ONE 8gig P2 card is $1,500 and you only get 8 MINUTES of dvcpro HD recording time!!!!!!!!!!! thats just ridiculous... Now i know you are not worried about HD, but then why would you be buying that camera in the first place??? unless at some point in time you are going to stat shooting in HD and then you are still going to have to put thousands more into media.

It sounds like you are better of with something like a AG-DVX100B.

If you have the money to spend and buy a bunch of 8 gig p2 cards, and the camera itself, I would invest it into a better camera system like the sony HD-XDCAM 330 ($22,000 with lens) anyway.

It really does come down to what you are going to mainly use the camera for... if you make money all the time by shooting weddings and you NEED stabilization, then i would look around for another type of camera, or get a stedicam. If you will only be shooting 3 weddings a year... i say learn to shoot shoulder mounted then and dont worry about it.

I really believe this camera is NOT for wedding work at all...especially the kind that you are talking about with swooping movements (that just screams steadicam to me, remember the whole reason why people want this camera is because its 24pHD and you cant really swoop much in 24p without making someone sick or go into an epileptic shock due to the strobbing that will happen). This camera is not for shooting in low light conditions where you have to push the gain either.

This camera is really MADE for serious independent filmmakers and we don’t use stabilizers because it degrades the picture quality, and we dont use autofocus because its not accurate or fast. For the same price you can get a NON-HD camera that will do everything you want... but as far as HD goes if you are looking for HD 24p there’s no better place than the JVC at this price range.

So its really a matter of what are you really going to use this camera for the most. even a swiss army knife has some features that just aren’t there... So ask yourself... what are you really going to use this for the most?

I think I will adapt to it with practice. I know that 24/25p will not allow fast movement so my style will have to adapt. I'm probably panicing about nothing.

Is there a rig that would give me more places to hold the camera, other than the handle on the camera body.

Something like the Red camera with its x-wing type attachment?

http://www.red.com/product/accessories/cages/

Thanks


Andrew

I honestly think going with the Panasonic is not the way to go money wise... ONE 8gig P2 card is $1,500 and you only get 8 MINUTES of dvcpro HD recording time!!!!!!!!!!! thats just ridiculous... Now i know you are not worried about HD, but then why would you be buying that camera in the first place??? unless at some point in time you are going to stat shooting in HD and then you are still going to have to put thousands more into media.

It sounds like you are better of with something like a AG-DVX100B.

I really believe this camera is NOT for wedding work at all...especially the kind that you are talking about with swooping movements


My main reason for buying this camera is for indie film making.

I'm still geting my head around the whole 24/35p and fast movement thing. I think as I said above, I will adapt my shooting style to this format. I'll leave the swooping out!! Slow pans will be the order of the day.

I've discounted SD cameras, as HD is what I want to use for indie films, so the DVX is out. P2 is just too expensive for me so the HVX is out.

Thanks


Andrew

if you are using this for indie film making then you will be very happy. If you know how to use this camera, its like a big brick of gold that you just paid a dollar for.

I think its a panic over nothing too, just relax... breath, and when that big box comes you will be happy as hell and want to shoot until you have no more things to shoot... then you will just start shooting things you don’t need to shoot... like a tour of your house... haha.

You should check out the Texas shoot out on DV.com. It compares all four prosumer cameras - one test addresses your concerns.

Regarding swoops, it's a matter of the timing of the move so that you don't get strobing effects (unless, that's the effect you want).

I think its a panic over nothing too, just relax... breath, and when that big box comes you will be happy as hell and want to shoot until you have no more things to shoot... then you will just start shooting things you don’t need to shoot... like a tour of your house... haha.

Giuseppe

Very good... my dog is currently taking acting lessons!!

Thanks for your patience. The old nerves began to tingle when I handed 5 grand over yesterday!!

Thanks Brian, I'll have a look.

Andrew

Regarding swoops, it's a matter of the timing of the move so that you don't get strobing effects (unless, that's the effect you want).

yes that’s right, to add to that, when you are going to do a "swoop" or fast movement, make sure that the subject stays in the relative same spot in frame when you make the move, that will allow you to make much faster movements than if you just swoosh the camera to a low angle but the whole frame of everything moved... that’s when you get the strobing effect.... you’ll be fine.

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale
Regarding swoops, it's a matter of the timing of the move so that you don't get strobing effects (unless, that's the effect you want).

yes that’s right, to add to that, when you are going to do a "swoop" or fast movement, make sure that the subject stays in the relative same spot in frame when you make the move, that will allow you to make much faster movements than if you just swoosh the camera to a low angle but the whole frame of everything moved... that’s when you get the strobing effect.... you’ll be fine.

Thanks for the tips. Can you see the strobing/flaking/tearing in the LCD or EVF? Or does it only show up in post?

I never used image stabilisation, because it degrades the image, but doesn't do enough to warrant it's use.

What I need, is a built in gyro stabiliser, because I tend to sway like a palm tree!

I never used image stabilisation, because it degrades the image, but doesn't do enough to warrant it's use.

What I need, is a built in gyro stabiliser, because I tend to sway like a palm tree!

Watch out for the coconuts :)

You should check out the Texas shoot out on DV.com. It compares all four prosumer cameras - one test addresses your concerns.

Regarding swoops, it's a matter of the timing of the move so that you don't get strobing effects (unless, that's the effect you want).

I just read the Texas Shootout. Again the same conclusions are drawn. No camera wins with everything, but I would still choose the JVC.

Handheld, in this test, the JVC won on image stabilization. You should read the whole thing, it is interesting. If you plan to do weddings, stay away from the HVX unless you have a lot of cash. Then again, you say HD is not an issue, so why not get a DVX100B?

Handheld, in this test, the JVC won on image stabilization. You should read the whole thing, it is interesting.

To be fair, the actual quote from the article said:
...with the JVC capturing the smoothest moves despite its lack of image stabilization. The HVR-Z1 did very well for a handheld. Sony's excellent optical Steadyshot soaked up whatever tremors the operators imparted to the camera.

If you plan to do weddings, stay away from the HVX unless you have a lot of cash. Then again, you say HD is not an issue, so why not get a DVX100B?

I meant HD is not an issue for me in weddings which can be shot in SD - not my main reason for buying this camera. I want HD for indie film making, my main reason for buying this camera, 'cause you just never know....

Either way P2 is not practical for me, especially when the first film i'm working on is located in a derelict factory and some very romote spots in Ireland with no power and mud - lots of mud...

Regards


Andrew

I just posted this for someone else and hope it helops here.

Image stabilization is always an issue but the fact of the mater is that the form of stabilization found in most camcorders is not sufficient for quality images, especially in HD. Stabilization occurs in one of two ways; optical and mechanical. Mechanical or "hardware stabilization" produces the best results using a mechanical gyro to detect movements in the lens and compensate for it. We use this type of stasbilization when shooting aerials and ground cover shots from the airplane/helo and ORV respectively, employing a neat little device made by Kenyon Labs http://www.ken-lab.com/stabilizers.html. Taylor Wigton turned us onto this great company and we've been hooked ever since. For camcorders, binoculars and the like, however, image stabilization occurs via a liquid- or gel-based prism mounted in front of the lens. This bladder bends the light so that the image falls on a fixed point on the CCD. This type of electronic or "software" image stabilization is less expensive, available on digital camcorders and is far less desirable because you place yet another interger between the image and sensor, this time liquid and so dibilitating to the image. Thus it's not the best of solutions where quality images are concerned. Thus, if you're looking for quality images, a mechanical stabilization unit is the only way to go for quality pictures. The subject gets alot more complex but I hope this overview helps.

I find that leaning against buildings and trees helps steady things when hand held. Unfortunately, neither of these options are very portable...

Great visual ;-) Thanks for the smile today.

You could give the Fig Rig a shot. We have one and it tested okay on the JVC, not perfect, but it was better for that type of movement compared to handling the camera without one. It was purchased for a shoot with the HVX, but after the shoot I stuck it on the JVC and tried some moves over and around a classic custom car, thought "not bad"! You can even still shoot shoulder with the rig attached to the camera.

Might sound a little goofy to those who have not tried one yet, but just the same it did help for maneuverability with an otherwise bulky camera (with all our cr@p ours is getting bulky anyway), the Fig Rigs just one more toy. Just a thought.

I really believe this camera is NOT for wedding work at all...

Well I just bought two of these to be used with misc projects including weddings. I thought people liked to use the hd100 for wedding such events.


Do you think I should cancel these orders and get Z1s instead?

You could give the Fig Rig a shot.

I'd thought of this, but i'm not sure how it would look at a wedding! it looks quite big.

Something more like the Red x-wing device would be less in-your-face. I also saw a device on the DVXuser forum but now i can't find it


Thanks

Andrew

I still can't get over the FigRig... It looks like you're driving a bus!

The fig rig hurts your arm too after a while of using it. I tried it out at nab and I can tell you for sure that it is not for weddings unless its a one to five minute wedding.

The fig rig hurts your arm too after a while of using it. I tried it out at nab and I can tell you for sure that it is not for weddings unless its a one to five minute wedding.

Thr FigRig is too small for the HD100. I do all sorts of events and I have no problem not having the image stabilisation, since the HD100 uses a fixed lens like any other professional camera. If you use a IDX or AB battery you have more weight on the back which balances the camera perfectly for shoulder-shooting.
And I prefer a sholdercamera with no image stabilisation way above a 'handycam' housing like the Z1 with build-in image stabilisation.

I have to say as an owner of both the FX1 and the HD100, the FX1 does lend itself better to weddings in a variety of ways.

1.) Image stabilization. - It's smoother and steadier 80% of the time. End of story.
EDIT: This doesn't mean you can't get steadyshots with the HD100. But for anything 20mm and above, you'll get woble.
2.) Wide lens. - The stock lens on the HD 100 does not do well at receptions or anywhere you need wider shots.
3.) Sensitivity. - It's been said elsewhere, but the HD100 is a noisier camera. It maxes out at 6db or 9db gain (for acceptable picture) while the FX1 can go up to 15db, be brighter, and have less noise.
4.) Light weight. - The HD100 is not great for creativity at weddings. Sure you can take it off your shoulder and do the low shots, but it's so much more cumbersome to do so. The FX1 easily can be held much steadier at waist level or my favorite is to hold it above your head. In fact what I often have done at receptions is to put the FX1 on a monopod and lift it way up in the air to get a nice aerial shot. With image stabilization and auto focus this was a piece of cake (no pun intended) and had stunning results. Not a chance the HD100 or any shoulder mount camera work like this.
5.) Autofocus – Actually it’s not that great, but once in a while it’s good to have.

Now, having said all that. I would never trade in my HD100 for a Z1U or anything else because even though I do weddings almost full time, I also do corporate and independent filmmaking. And for these applications, this camera is a dream come true. Just this past weekend we shot for two full days on a 10 minute short film. I was directing, but my DP said I spoiled him with the camera. He doesn't want to use anything else. Everything from rack focusing to the lens barrel markings to handheld style is so much more like a film camera. Not to mention the images it produces over the Z1U (I've used both and this one is far more filmic).

For corporate work as well I feel like I can achieve the look I envision using 24pHD and getting a brilliant product in the end.

But am I glad I still have a small "handycam" FX1 for getting creative on the fly at weddings? You bet.

And for the record, for a lot of the wedding day it's best to shoot 60i (if you're going SD) and use Nattress or some other plug-in to get 24p in post. Your slow motion will thank you greatly! Hope this helps, Drew.

Well I just bought two of these to be used with misc projects including weddings. I thought people liked to use the hd100 for wedding such events.


Do you think I should cancel these orders and get Z1s instead?


I am far from an authority on this, but I do happen to have both an FX1 and a HD100, and for maximum flexibility would recommend a combo with very different cameras like that. This thread and others have been pointing out that no one camera can do it all, and it's nice to have a camera with the right features at the right moment. Don't most professionals have a variety of tools in their kitbag to cover more contingencies? So in terms of camera features, functions, and dimensions, if you don't already have a combo you might consider cancelling one of the HD100s for a Z1U.

BUT

things do get more complicated when you try to do a two camera shoot with machines that are shooting HDV in such different ways. Perhaps others can advise you on how to find or create a common ground between them that saves time in post production. I think in the end it comes down to what you need the most for your work: flexibility in camera applications, or simplicity in multicam setups.

Well I just bought two of these to be used with misc projects including weddings. I thought people liked to use the hd100 for wedding such events.


Do you think I should cancel these orders and get Z1s instead?

Jonathan

I can see in my area a market for 24/25p wedding 'FILMS' so I wanted to stay away from the interlaced look. Many wedding pros will laugh at me, but I don't care. I already do wedding stills photography in a less conventional way, and a lot of couples have asked if I would do their weddings using my stills style. Many are telling me that they aren't getting video coverage of their day because the results look so tacky with traditional video techniques.

I will adapt to shooting with the HD100 and 25p with practice. I want to produce unique film style weddings using the skills i already adopt when taking stills. I will make them aware of what they are getting so there is no confusion.

Just my 2 pence.

Andrew.

I still can't get over the FigRig... It looks like you're driving a bus!


Well that explains why I make the BRBRBRBRBRBR noise when shooting with it!

I Agree that it might be odd looking and draw attention away from the wedding itself.

As for using the Fig Rig for image stabilization... it's just okay, it's better for range of motion. But even then I can't see needing an over the crowd shot and then quickly dipping down to the floor and performing that always requested under the bridal dress shot. But what do I know, people are strange.

So in terms of camera features, functions, and dimensions, if you don't already have a combo you might consider canceling one of the HD100s for a Z1U.


I would love to do this because I would get the best of both worlds, however I am afraid of the picture differences between the two cameras. The reason I chose to get two hd100s is because I wanted an efficient system with matching video quality. I do ALOT of two camera shoots and I know how it feels to use two different cameras. I remember in high school, I used a gl2 and canon optura 10 which went together like oil and water.

I have not ordered the second hd100 yet, and I am now considering this z1 camcorder as my second. I really need some words of wisdom.

With a limited budget, would most of you guys order two hd100s or a hd100/z1 mix?

How hard would it be to combine the two and have similar video characteristics?

The realistic price difference between the hvx and hd100 (figure initial cost and p2 cards, is at least $2000) So, for the price of an hvx, you can buy an hd100 and have a couple of grand left over for a used dvx100a which could handle your wedding gigs.

The realistic price difference between the hvx and hd100 (figure initial cost and p2 cards, is at least $2000) So, for the price of an hvx, you can buy an hd100 and have a couple of grand left over for a used dvx100a which could handle your wedding gigs.
The hvx is out of the question for me. You have a good idea, but I need to have two hd cams so that I can do hd multicam shoots hence the z1 and hd100.

Jonathan

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=67566

some previous discussions

Everyone will have their opinions on ideal uses for the HD100. I'm gonna use mine for weddings with some careful forethought to get the best out of it.

Regards


Drew

Jonathan

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=67566

some previous discussions

Everyone will have their opinions on ideal uses for the HD100. I'm gonna use mine for weddings with some careful forethought to get the best out of it.

Regards


Drew

Drew,
Do you do mutlicam shoots at weddings?

Jonathan,

Though I haven't tried it yet, I do know that the HD100 can be calibrated to look like the Z1U or probably any other camera. Most likely keeping it in "Standard" gamma with no black stretch would be the best place to start. For my productions I do a lot of CC in post anyway to get the most pleasing picture out of it. I just do a little extra for the ceremony so that all the cameras match. If you're carefull when shooting not to adjust iris and stay out of the "ramping" part of the Z1U lens (above 2.8), then you should be able to apply one CC filter to all of that camera's clips in the timeline (Capture as something like "Z1U," then go to find all "Z1U" when selecting clips to apply to). It differs for every NLE but I'm on FCP.

So for my ceremonies I've got 3 very different cameras: HD100, FX1, & Canon GL2. So far I've been able to CC them without too many headaches. For some this would be too much of a hassle, but I like that phase of the project. Like the icing on the cake that makes it pretty. From what I can tell the Z1U and the HD100 aren't night and day different with the settings I've mentioned above. I don't think it's anything that can't be tweaked in post with the right tools.

Jonathan,

Though I haven't tried it yet, I do know that the HD100 can be calibrated to look like the Z1U or probably any other camera. Most likely keeping it in "Standard" gamma with no black stretch would be the best place to start. For my productions I do a lot of CC in post anyway to get the most pleasing picture out of it. I just do a little extra for the ceremony so that all the cameras match. If you're carefull when shooting not to adjust iris and stay out of the "ramping" part of the Z1U lens (above 2.8), then you should be able to apply one CC filter to all of that camera's clips in the timeline (Capture as something like "Z1U," then go to find all "Z1U" when selecting clips to apply to). It differs for every NLE but I'm on FCP.

So for my ceremonies I've got 3 very different cameras: HD100, FX1, & Canon GL2. So far I've been able to CC them without too many headaches. For some this would be too much of a hassle, but I like that phase of the project. Like the icing on the cake that makes it pretty. From what I can tell the Z1U and the HD100 aren't night and day different with the settings I've mentioned above. I don't think it's anything that can't be tweaked in post with the right tools.
That is cool that you are able to use such different cameras. I am really starting to consider getting a z1 but only because I really should have something with auto features in case I have some newb helping me.

The bad part is that I have until next tuesday to figure out what route I want to go. I will also have to get some extra software to help deinterlace the z1 footage which I image is a long process. I really see a place for the z1 for low light events such as wedding receptions.

Does the film look setting on the z1 look anything like the hd100 or is that something that looks better done in post?

Drew,
Do you do mutlicam shoots at weddings?

At present no. I shoot stills in partnership with my brother, so we have 3 digital SLR's at each wedding. (one backup)

We're thinking of offering a service where I will be on the HD100 all day and perhaps a DSLR for some of the ceremony, and him solely on the DSLR's - then producing a DVD with a combination of video and photography. If it works out, we may buy a DVX to sit at the rear of the church giving us 2 cameras as well as the photography.

Drew

[QUOTE=Drew Curran] My shooting style is definitly not shoulder mounted eye level stuff only - its low, its high, its swooping in, its angled - and it needs to be smooth!!
I'm seriously tempted to change my order to a HVX200,

Before committing yourself to the HVX for handheld use have play with one. This is a somewhat large camera to be configured with a rear mounted viewfinder that requires it to be held infront of the body for off tripod use. Long steady handheld shots are going to be difficult, this is not a camera for someone with underdeveloped biceps.

If you're looking for a camera to do that kind of work the Z1 is the best, if you can make the rest of it work for you.

You can still do great handheld moves with HD-101 by carrying the camera by it's handle in you're right hand and cupping the left hand underneath at it's centre of gravity, it's a slightly lower angle perhaps but moves smoothly.

Does the film look setting on the z1 look anything like the hd100 or is that something that looks better done in post?

Can't say for sure what the Z1U can be configured for. The one cinematone on the FX1 starts down the same path as the HD100 in terms of highlight handling, but really suppresses midtones and darker parts of the image. The Z1 has one more cinematone option and with the added black stretch could travel a lot farther towards the HD100 look. But I've only done A/B comparison w/ the FX1 (which didn't come close to the cinematic feel, but looked like good video). I’d recommend testing them out yourself if you can. It’s also best to be able to switch rapidly from one to the other to see point blank what’s different.


You can still do great handheld moves with HD-101 by carrying the camera by it's handle in you're right hand and cupping the left hand underneath at it's centre of gravity, it's a slightly lower angle perhaps but moves smoothly.

It's true, you can totally do the same types of moves with the HD100. I just find that trying to get close shots (zoomed in past 20 or so) is much more steady with a camera w/ steadyshot. For instance for "cake coverage" (not the cake-cutting, but the close-up stuff beforehand to show off the details) I've been switching over to my FX1 because it can get in close for details while still being handheld and steady by bracing it in a similar way.

I actually just got back from a wedding tonight where I was shooting up above my head w/ the HD100 as well as getting some low shots during the dances, etc. I don’t feel bad at all about the footage. It might have suffered a little, but staying mostly zoomed out helps immensely and the camera’s weight (especially w/ pro batts) reduces the wobble. Mainly it’s just easier to do that stuff w/ a smaller, lighter camera that has steadyshot. Going back to the FX1 feels like a breeze in terms of weight and flexibility. On the other hand I can’t get enough of that should-mount feel and superior lens control. That’s why the HD100 remains my primary camera for weddings. That and the image quality of course. (I love that black stretch….)

Can't say for sure what the Z1U can be configured for. The one cinematone on the FX1 starts down the same path as the HD100 in terms of highlight handling, but really suppresses midtones and darker parts of the image. The Z1 has one more cinematone option and with the added black stretch could travel a lot farther towards the HD100 look. But I've only done A/B comparison w/ the FX1 (which didn't come close to the cinematic feel, but looked like good video). I’d recommend testing them out yourself if you can. It’s also best to be able to switch rapidly from one to the other to see point blank what’s different.




It's true, you can totally do the same types of moves with the HD100. I just find that trying to get close shots (zoomed in past 20 or so) is much more steady with a camera w/ steadyshot. For instance for "cake coverage" (not the cake-cutting, but the close-up stuff beforehand to show off the details) I've been switching over to my FX1 because it can get in close for details while still being handheld and steady by bracing it in a similar way.

I actually just got back from a wedding tonight where I was shooting up above my head w/ the HD100 as well as getting some low shots during the dances, etc. I don’t feel bad at all about the footage. It might have suffered a little, but staying mostly zoomed out helps immensely and the camera’s weight (especially w/ pro batts) reduces the wobble. Mainly it’s just easier to do that stuff w/ a smaller, lighter camera that has steadyshot. Going back to the FX1 feels like a breeze in terms of weight and flexibility. On the other hand I can’t get enough of that should-mount feel and superior lens control. That’s why the HD100 remains my primary camera for weddings. That and the image quality of course. (I love that black stretch….)

hmm... now I am really considering getting another hd100s after that post.