What a camera! Very film like. There was so much I liked about the film, but I would like to offer a few thoughts. I felt although the sound was clear, at times you felt like they were talking an inch away from the mic, when the viewer was quite a bit further. (I know you did it with overdubs, but I feel the visual distance should match the audio, in most cases.) The killer was absolutely outstanding as an actor but didn't have the face or eyes of a killer. He actually looked like a kind soul. The other actors were very good too. I felt some of the shots were too long, eg the profile of the husband sitting in the car, the killer walking along the hillside. (a little too much French film influence.) I like your choice of score especially nessan Dorma (I"m sure that's not how you spell it.) Opera singing and murder are always a perfect mix. As great as everything in your film was, I felt the weakest link was the dialogue. A little too much exposition, and at times it didn't flow like natural conversation. question, How did the killer not recognize his own daughter from the picture after the husband gave it to him? How could the wife be so dumb as to not know what finding a used condom might mean? All in all it was very inspiring and shows a high level of talent. Good luck with it.

The killer was absolutely outstanding as an actor but didn't have the face or eyes of a killer. He actually looked like a kind soul.

That was sort of the point. Someone that has a good soul, but gone down the wrong path. The story was loosly based on, believe it or not, Kellie Pickler (American Idol) and her dad. I just heard her talk about not having seen her dad since she was little, and that he was in and out of jail, so I figred that was a good premise to start with. I, of course, added the twist in the plot.. =)

I felt some of the shots were too long, eg the profile of the husband sitting in the car, the killer walking along the hillside. (a little too much French film influence.)

Well, the opening shot I wanted to show that he was sitting just waiting trying to make a decision, still not sure of what to do. The mountain shot of him walking just went so well with the music that I had to keep it =)

overall my intention was to a have short that sort of flowed like a piece of music, which is how I write, regardless of the type of music. This was written as a moody piece. (Actually an Ultravox song, "Vienna") So it kind of has the mellow moddiness, and then change in pace and back to the moodiness. Not sure if it worked out that way, but that was my intention. That is why its good to hear all the comments.

I felt the weakest link was the dialogue. A little too much exposition, and at times it didn't flow like natural conversation.

It is VERY difficult to do a short and still remain having a plot without being on the "nose" with the dialogue. I tried to keep a balance between general conversation and keeping the plot/story going without hitting people over the head. Again, it is extremely difficult when you don't have much time, contrary to a feature where you can take it a lot slower with character and plot development. The flow could be due to the overdubs, but after listening to the original dialogue it is VERY Close.

How did the killer not recognize his own daughter from the picture after the husband gave it to him?

Do you generally recognize people at 20-30 you only saw when they were 2 years old? This was one of the first questions I was asked before even writing the script, but if you had a daughter and you left at 2 years old, meeting her at 25 probably doesn’t ring a bell. In addition, the Dad wasn't thinking about that and it was last on his mind that it could or was his daughter.

How could the wife be so dumb as to not know what finding a used condom might mean?

I don't know about you, but people I know from life experience generally are in denial of what they see and hear, especially if it is detrimental to them. She did say, "of course I know, but I just don't want to think about it," so there was an acknowledgement, but who wants to accept that their spouse/girl; or boyfriend is cheating on them?

All in all it was very inspiring and shows a high level of talent. Good luck with it.

Thanks, much appreciated =)

Giuseppe,

Thanks for your input. I guess it comes down to different ears hearing different things and a matter of likings.

I did play on a variety of systems and it all sounded good to others and me. In addition I matched it up with other feature films to compare and it sounded very close, if not the same. I think if you know or are told that there are certain area of sound to listen to they stick out much more. I tried turning down some of the sound and then listen back, but it didn't sound right. I actually like when there are certain sounds that stick out such as footsteps if the scene calls for that, or a loud door slamming indicating "f$ck you." Also, I did use a lot of the ambient from the original rooms.

If there are specific places, such as someone pointed out about the laughter in the motel room sounding like it didn't come form outside, it will help me better since I can pinpoint the issue. I have listened to the sound probably 300 times and with 25 years of a sound background I can't hear much problems, but then again, I may be so used to it =)

I agree with a lot of what you say, I am just not sure what places in the movie where it applies. I am not sure I agree that music should ALWAYS be accompanied with the ambient sounds. Again, that is probably a matter of style and direction, but there are plenty of great flicks that have places with music only where it works.

A good way to practice is to watch a good Hollywood feature and put on loud headphones WITHOUT watching the images and just listen to the sound. You will get a different set of ears afterwards when it comes to sound. You be surprised how the sound is mixed and heard, but people don’t pay attention to it when they watch images generally.

So if you can point out some places where it sounds empty, too loud, strange etc I would appreciate it so I can make any changes. Thanks!

That’s just my 24 bit =)

I actually gave the film a third listen... this time with the bigger file... i have to say the audio was MUCH better than on the compressed file. so some of what i said can be thrown out the door, but as someone else pointed out there was lots of little things that stick out still, like the doors closing not matching the sound. and the mics being close up, i should have said that right from the start... thats what throws you off more than anything... have the mic farther away from the actor when doing outside shots, and yes we all do have different ways of hearing things so remember these are all opinions. But for my ears the ADR is very noticeable and thats still the same from the very first time i heard it. I really dont think you will have to worry about this, for a 2 day shoot you got what you could, its no ones fault and the short is a cool short...

As for the comment someone left that some of the shots were to long, i actually like long shots. Again perfect example of difference in opinion. but i personally loved the timing of the long shots. cinematically I love the film, honestly there were only 2 things that stuck out for me camera wise...

one was the crane shot when they were in the secluded area talking, the camera was rising but the pan down was kind of stuttered ( i dont hold any of these at your film because I know you guys did a rush job, so its probably better than most people would have gotten with the time.) and the only other problem i saw visually was the shots at the end... the cropping and position of the camera on the tight shots of the actors were off a bit, it didn’t mesh to look like they were directly talking to each other, again... all in taste all within your time to shoot it...

i love the cinematography of the film, mini35 rocked, nice focus.. you did a good job.

As for me I will now shut up I think I’ve talked enough on this thread haha I feel kind of bad that I brought up any details about it, it’s a good film.

I actually gave the film a third listen... this time with the bigger file... i have to say the audio was MUCH better than on the compressed file. ...haha I feel kind of bad that I brought up any details about it, it’s a good film.

I'll tell ya. I almost went crazy looking at the screen and the sound trying to figure out what was wrong. I did do some minor changes, such as door slamming and making it match, and did a few ADR's over, but overall when I play it back on a regular TV here and other places it sounds great. Easy to understand and not in your face like on louder speakers, which most people don't play movies on anyway. Even my surround sound system sounds really good.

From what I had and the nightmares I had to go through with unusable fottage sound issues etc I think I did a pretty good job at the end. So, now I am on to my next project shooting in two weeks. YEAH! This should be more fun and less stressful as I will be taking my time.

I will post the updates, but I'm sure no one will really notice the difference anyway. Thanks again.

Duke, I found the images a little hard to watch because the blacks looked really crushed.... almost no detail in them. Did you purposely want this look?

Duke, I found the images a little hard to watch because the blacks looked really crushed.... almost no detail in them. Did you purposely want this look?

Which images?

The whole piece in general had very little detail in the blacks. Anything dark looked complete black; not much discernable grays. Maybe could it have been the post production filters you used or just the nature of HDV having narrow latitude?

The whole piece in general had very little detail in the blacks. Anything dark looked complete black; not much discernable grays. Maybe could it have been the post production filters you used or just the nature of HDV having narrow latitude?

That's the way we set the camera for that look. I like it, and I am much more concerned with narrative motion, rtaher than technical. The camera can be set to however you want it.

UPDATE!: I Added a Window Media Player Better quality to the website for you guys who can't download the Quicktime file.

http://www.hd-motionpictures.com/twistofFate.html

Brian,

You have the right attitude, one that's refreshing compared to so many others on film sites I visit -- it starts with the script. Without that, you can have Scorcese directing and Sean Penn and Johnny Depp as your leads and it will still stink. I've always been a believer that if your story's good and your actors make it real, audiences will forgive almost any technical shortcomings.

That's not to say proper exposure, lighting, sound, shot composition, etc. aren't important; certainly they are. But when those things are the priority, rather than story, the film will surely suffer. I've seen so much tech talk on filmmaking sites, and when I look at those sites' sections on scriptwriting, there's almost no one there. That speaks volumes to me.

I was a print journalist for 16 years (newspapers and magazines, first as a reporter, then an editor) before giving it up earlier this year to go into filmmaking; that's why I place so much emphasis on the writing. I encourage everyone doing this to run their scripts by real writers before shooting a frame of video or doing any other pre-production. Find the weak spots and hack away; be merciless. It'll only make your end product better.

Brian, I'm encouraged about your ability to be successful in this biz because of your priorities. Much luck.

Remember: story, Story, STORY!

Thanks Keith for the support and encouragement. I joined here a little under a year ago to learn some of the technical aspects of the camera etc. The people on here are absolutely wonderful and I have learned a ton, and nothing I say here or anywhere else should take that away, but I do concur with you that there could be some more discussions on the substance of movie making, i.e. the story and the actors that portray it. Perhaps it isn't the proper forum for it? I don't know the answer.

Just a few of my own thoughts:

If you have a bad script you will have a bad movie.

If you have a good script, but bad actors performing, you will have a bad movie.

If you have a good script, good actors, but bad direction you will have a bad movie.

If you have a good script, good actors, good director, but bad editing, you will have a bad movie.

If you have a good script, good actors, good director, good editing, but bad music you will have a pretty bad movie =) Think of Star Wars with Techno music. Will the movie be the same? Some may say yes. But that will just show how important even music can be, for good or worse.

My point is, you can have great resolution, lighting, frame rates, compression, colors etc (all technical to some extend) with all the above points and still have a bad movie. HOWEVER, If you have great story, actors, director, editing, music and BAD lighting etc, you still have a great movie. At least in my opinion. This doesn't mean you cannot be creative as a DP and make art out of motion pictures. You absolutely can, and should be at any given time, but how many can honestly say they want to watch 90 minutes of moving art on screen? Although I do love some movies more for the art, than the story. E.G. Lost in Translation had no interesting story, but had a great sense of tone and very artfully done, at least in my opinion.

So I say with you, STORY STORY STORY, then get the proper actors and director and you are onto something. beautiful cinematography can only carry a movie so far before the audience fall asleep. But what do I know ;)

i trat to vist the site but something wrong
http://hd-motionpictures.com/TwistofFate.html

Brian, that's a great short. I enjoyed it, thanks.

I do sometimes forget while we're sorting through all the technical minutiae that it not as much about the tools as the story. But I can't resist asking if you shot in 30P. I'm not a frame rate expert and so I'd like to be able to say here's a good example of what __P looks like...

-Jay

i trat to vist the site but something wrong
http://hd-motionpictures.com/TwistofFate.html

I tried the link you posted and it works ry again.

Brian, that's a great short. I enjoyed it, thanks.

I do sometimes forget while we're sorting through all the technical minutiae that it not as much about the tools as the story. But I can't resist asking if you shot in 30P. I'm not a frame rate expert and so I'd like to be able to say here's a good example of what __P looks like...

-Jay

HEy Jay, don't worry, there's nothing wrong with techniocal discussions, just shouldn't be the only focus.

I shot in 24fps, 720P. =)

Brian how your film passed me by without noticing it i do not know (i must have been busier than i remember that month).

I have to hand it to ya, its one of the best shorts i've seen (and living near Edinburgh i've seen a lot of em at the Fringe Film festival).

Every aspect was extremely well done, the story was great, the acting was amazing, your camera work with the mounts jibs etc was awsome. It has also just solidified my own desire to completely ADR my next feature.

I guess the best compliment i can give is that normally i download folks work and toss it in the bin when im done but i think i'll hang on to yours to show my crew.

Andy.

Brian how your film passed me by without noticing it i do not know (i must have been busier than i remember that month).

I have to hand it to ya, its one of the best shorts i've seen (and living near Edinburgh i've seen a lot of em at the Fringe Film festival).

Every aspect was extremely well done, the story was great, the acting was amazing, your camera work with the mounts jibs etc was awsome. It has also just solidified my own desire to completely ADR my next feature.

I guess the best compliment i can give is that normally i download folks work and toss it in the bin when im done but i think i'll hang on to yours to show my crew.

Andy.

Thanks for your really kind comments. I assume you are referring to Twist of Fate, which I really am not too happy with, but I am too hard on myself, and it was really just a small test that I did to see what I could do with the camrera. I wrote the script really quickly (mistake no. 1) and I only cast one day (mistake no. 2) and then, I rushed the shoot (mistake no. 3), and lastly, we ended up with bad sound (mistake no. 4) .

So here are some suggestions for you:

AVOID ADR if you can. Get some good lav wireless mics, and a boom for safety. Only do ADR if you absolutely have to, such as with sound problem on set.

Do NOT rush your shoot, especially to save a few bucks. In the end if you don't have what you want in the end then all the work is basically for nothing. Wait until you have anough dough to shoot what you NEED and WANT.

Spend time casting. Its important. All that matters is what you have in the can at the end, everything else means nothing to a viewer. It isn't easy, but hopefully we can better with each film. I feel MUCH better with my last project.

Good luck, and again thanks for your nice comments

Brian, have you had the chance to add any more footage from your latest project?
I too was impressed with Twist of fate - one of the reasons I bit the bullet and went for the HD100.
Did I ask you how you got the music on there? Did you have to pay royalties etc?

Brian, have you had the chance to add any more footage from your latest project?

Almost done with it. Had some issues with the green screen we shot, but should be done within a month. I am currently doing post sound.

I too was impressed with Twist of fate - one of the reasons I bit the bullet and went for the HD100.

Thanks, and are you happy with your choice?

Did I ask you how you got the music on there? Did you have to pay royalties etc?

That was just some temp music added, which I probably won't change since I am on to other projects. It’s all public domain, except performances, of course, but I am not that concerned about it, unless one day I was going to make a buck on it.

"Thanks, and are you happy with your choice?"

Indeed. Haven't really tested it to it's full capability as yet but I will be shortly. It pretty much has exactly the look I was after and for a relatively reasonable price.

"That was just some temp music added, which I probably won't change since I am on to other projects. It’s all public domain, except performances, of course, but I am not that concerned about it, unless one day I was going to make a buck on it."

So what will you be doing with the twist of fate project? I'm going to do the majority of the music on the documentary I'm soon making, but was curious as to how I could get by adding a commercial track should I wish?
Thanks Brian.

Indeed. Haven't really tested it to it's full capability as yet but I will be shortly. It pretty much has exactly the look I was after and for a relatively reasonable price.



So what will you be doing with the twist of fate project? I'm going to do the majority of the music on the documentary I'm soon making, but was curious as to how I could get by adding a commercial track should I wish?
Thanks Brian.

Twist of Fate was really just a quick test I wanted to do to see how far I could take the camera, and also to test my own skills, i.e. to see how much on paper (script) would actually translate onto screen. It was a practice piece. I didn't expect much from it, and I am pretty happy with it, but it is what it is. It isn't my masterpiece and I am not pursuing it commercially. However, the next few pieces I am working on will be a different story. I plan on doing a feature next year so I needed to get some shorts under my wings to perfect my skills and not waste practicing on a feature with more money at stake.

If you are just doing it for a director's reel, or for immediate family and friends I wouldn't worry too much about music, but if you are fixed on taking it the commercial route then you should look into licensing and/or compose your own music. Even festivals are not that strict with copyrighted music, but each festival is different. If it is temp it generally is not a big deal what music you are using. Do some research after deciding what you want to do.

I was watching TV the other day, and a commercial came on and the lead actress in your short was the girl in the commercial, I don’t remember exactly what it was about but she was the main girl in the commercial and if I remember correctly it was a high end commercial... just thought someone would like to know

:)

Thanks Brian - I will research. I'll be doing the scoring anyhow but wished to add a commercial track in there somewhere - no biggy.
Also missed the last page or two of this thread and reading back there are some really helpful bits of knowledge (agree about Lost in Translation - characterisation and script pretty much flawed but it's great to watch - the music succeeds really well in that movie).

Cheers.

I was watching TV the other day, and a commercial came on and the lead actress in your short was the girl in the commercial, I don’t remember exactly what it was about but she was the main girl in the commercial and if I remember correctly it was a high end commercial... just thought someone would like to know

:)

I made her famous hehe. Its a friend of mine, and it was probably the Mickey Dee commercial. I can't believe you remember.

HOWEVER, If you have great story, actors, director, editing, music and BAD lighting etc, you still have a great movie. At least in my opinion. So I say with you, STORY STORY STORY, then get the proper actors and director and you are onto something. beautiful cinematography can only carry a movie so far before the audience fall asleep. But what do I know ;)

Well, I agree with this to a point. First of all, there are plenty of films that have had great script/acting/lighting/art departments/music/directing that suck. Not just, "Not great," but out right suck.

Making a great film is always a crap shoot, no matter what talent you have lined up, what script you have (ever watch a bad large budget film based on a play by Shakespeare? Sure you have). There are so many variables, so many things that can go wrong and so many things that have to go right to make a great film. Think of the thousands of films that have been made and how few would qualify in your mind as "great."

If the photography is so bad that you can't see the actors, then yeah, photograpghy matters. Think of 2002: A SPACE ODESSEY - it is largely a film featuring great photography and a little nice dialogue/acting. In this movie (and many great films) the motion picture IS what tells the story.

Well, that's photography. Lot's of other things affect the story telling in films - Don't underestimate music's ability to tell the story. If you have any doubt of this, watch STAR WARS w/o the music - It's nowhere near the same heroic story w/o the music, is it? Remember, there are only 22 stories (man vs man, man vs nature, etc). There have been more than one film saved in post production and transformed into greatness (HALLOWEEN comes to mind - John Carpenter has admitted that w/o the music the film's a disaster).

It's not so much the story, as the story teller (in this case, the director).

John
evilgeniusentertainment.com

Well, I agree with this to a point. First of all, there are plenty of films that have had great script/acting/lighting/art departments/music/directing that suck. Not just, "Not great," but out right suck.

Making a great film is always a crap shoot, no matter what talent you have lined up, what script you have (ever watch a bad large budget film based on a play by Shakespeare? Sure you have). There are so many variables, so many things that can go wrong and so many things that have to go right to make a great film. Think of the thousands of films that have been made and how few would qualify in your mind as "great."

If the photography is so bad that you can't see the actors, then yeah, photograpghy matters. Think of 2002: A SPACE ODESSEY - it is largely a film featuring great photography and a little nice dialogue/acting. In this movie (and many great films) the motion picture IS what tells the story.

Well, that's photography. Lot's of other things affect the story telling in films - Don't underestimate music's ability to tell the story. If you have any doubt of this, watch STAR WARS w/o the music - It's nowhere near the same heroic story w/o the music, is it? Remember, there are only 22 stories (man vs man, man vs nature, etc). There have been more than one film saved in post production and transformed into greatness (HALLOWEEN comes to mind - John Carpenter has admitted that w/o the music the film's a disaster).

It's not so much the story, as the story teller (in this case, the director).

John
evilgeniusentertainment.com

John, there are exceptions to everything, but my main point was that a lot of people focus too much on the technical aspect, but of course, there are cinematically pictures that are great without much of a story. Los in Translation I particulaly like, but as mentioned, 2001 a Space Odyssey is another. One of the reasons I brought it up was because most of the conversations on the board and else where in the communicty is focuses on 24p, 1080i, 720p, resolution, mpeg etc, and less time spend on creating a captivating story with a interesting plot and/or sympathetic characters.

Some cracking points raised there John and Brian.
When I first watched Halloween as a young kid (admittedly watching this behind the door of a brightly lit kitchen to minimise tension!) it was one of the first films I saw which made me want to one day make a film (and in fact when I ws young, I used an old tiny 8mm family cine cam with some cheap prosthetics to attempt my 'feature'!).
That film was done on the cheap but is very effective, not so much the shocks (which Carpenter stated were at least one to many) but the atmosphere and tension a fine unison between the music (which he himself composed - another reason why I'm such a fan) and the photography (dean cundey - brilliant cinematogrpaher imo). Not quite sure why Carpenter seemed to lose his way...but that's for another thread!
Kubrick - beatifully crafted photography - almost a series of fine paintings - hardly worth mentioning scripts...perhaps the same could be said about Terrence Malick - hardly great characteristion, but poetic moive making all the same.
Kevin Smith, for example, on the other hand, is mostly about really sharp, well written dialogue...a good film is a good film.
Recently watched L'enfant (Belgian movie) - I don't recall any music/soundtrack in there at all (which would usually annoy me!) but one wasn't necessary...just goes to show.

One of the reasons I brought it up was because most of the conversations on the board and else where in the communicty is focuses on 24p, 1080i, 720p, resolution, mpeg etc, and less time spend on creating a captivating story with a interesting plot and/or sympathetic characters.


Brian - I agree with you 100%, sometimes people do overawed with the technical aspects.

One of the neatest things about being a filmmaker right now is that, using a camera like the JVC100 and the new editing systems, a poor person can make something professional, something great. This is true, however, only if he can max out the potential of these new tools, and that's where most of the meat is on this board.

I think that before someone can become a master story teller in film, they've got to know the technical aspects of cameras, et al, at least in some degree. This would seem to be even more true in smaller films where the director is wearing several hats. Gotta walk before you run.

Because what makes a good director good is so subjective, so individually based, it's much more difficult to talk about it on these boards - but, the technical aspects are something concrete, something "real."

But your point is absolutely crucial - if a film maker lets the technical aspects overwhelm or become the only thing focused on, there is a great likely hood that the film, even if technically good, will lack the quality of good story telling - something beyond what editing and music can save in post. I thinks it is a good idea to talk about these things, because it is very easy to lose focus (so to speak).

john
evilgeniusentertainment.com

Brian great film, you did a great job on a short independant film. It did a great job pulling me into the story after a bit. The only time I even thought maybe you were doing ADR work was in the car scene with the two woman in the convertable. I was thinking if that was not ADR work you did some amazing audio work! It is short films like these that are helping me to want to make the leap and do my own film.

Brian great film, you did a great job on a short independant film. It did a great job pulling me into the story after a bit. The only time I even thought maybe you were doing ADR work was in the car scene with the two woman in the convertable. I was thinking if that was not ADR work you did some amazing audio work! It is short films like these that are helping me to want to make the leap and do my own film.

Hi Justin,

Thanks for your kind words. It always good to hear that my work can inspire others to make thier dreams come true. Can't wait until see your work.

Great job man!
I think you should work the cover design/poster again. I can't relate the poster with the film and I don't think it's visually attractive nor presents the theme. That's just a secondary thing, but felt I should told you.
A question... I see the faces and bright things get totally white at times (rocks along the route, the sweater of the girl in the coffee shop). Is that a desired look?
I felt it is a story needed to be told as a feature.
I am thinking of buying a hd110 myself, and these kind of things make me really optimistic of the quality that one can achieve with this camera.
Congratulations!, and thank you! Best luck in the festivals