I just went to a Canon H1 presentation here in NY and it was a lot of "Yes the Final Cut 24F plug in is About to come out" kind of stuff we already know...

But one thing I didn't know:
That when you record to HDV and THEN stream it to your computer with HD-SDI (like Barlow Elton has done)...the camera UNPACKS the compression (except for the 4:2:0 colorspace) so it is like a raw capture
--except for the color space (which is what I seriously crave)

But Still, That's Awesome !
They said "No Artifacting"

Huh? Can you expand on that process? Do you mean capture the taped footage from the camera to the computer via HD-SDI instead of Firewire?

thats not possible. once yu conpress someting, the info mation disgarded is gone. it cannot be retrived.

That sounds misleading. Almost like you can undo the compression that has already been applied. I'd like to hear more about it but it seems unlikely that it could work this way. However it could be possible that Canon implemented a proprietary algorithm that would "unpack" the frames more cleanly and efficiently than the decoders built into NLE software......but even that is stretching it a bit.

I'd like to hear more on this though.......

Yes, if we were able to unpack the footage to an uncompressed format or at least close to it, in technical terms this would be called a "frickin' miracle".

:)

I'm just sayin'

Baloney.

SDI from HDV tape is no different than firewire capture via DVHS CAP.

Okay John, the pressure is on. Tell us what you know or else.

:)

once yu conpress someting, the info mation disgarded is gone. it cannot be retrived.

True for lossy data compression. Note that some codecs use a lossless data compression, in which case, everything can be retrieved.

Best,
Christopher

I meant to be there today, but a flight delay caused me to miss my connection to Newark last night... so I'm missing out on the last hurrah for the H1 road show.

Anyway, I heard this same pitch at the Denver event but kept my mouth shut about it because I wanted to understand exactly what the deal is before sticking my foot in my mouth. Now that John's brought it up, I'll press for a better explanation (and I know exactly who it was that John talked to today).

Thanks Chris, I'm waiting patiently for a miracle. :)

I just went to a Canon H1 presentation here in NY and it was a lot of "Yes the Final Cut 24F plug in is About to come out" kind of stuff we already know...

But one thing I didn't know:
That when you record to HDV and THEN stream it to your computer with HD-SDI (like Barlow Elton has done)...the camera UNPACKS the compression (except for the 4:2:0 colorspace) so it is like a raw capture
--except for the color space (which is what I seriously crave)

But Still, That's Awesome !
They said "No Artifacting"

No it is not! HDV is a highly compressed format. Color space and motion are compressed too and the missing information is permanently lost. Eight bit color has a maximum of 256 colors for each of red, green, and blue. 10 bit color has 1024 colors. This color is lost forever. Motion information exceeding the capacity of the compression scheme is also lost forever.

The only way you can get 4:2:2 1.4 Gbps HD SDI is to record directly to a recorder such as the Wafian HR1 or a Sony HD SDI tape deck. However even then, the motion is compressed somewhat but 10 bit color is preserved. The motion is much better too. The real damage is caused when you record to the HDV tape or 1394 outputs. All the benefits of HD SDI are lost. The biggest problem is not color space but motion recorded to the tape. HDV compression loses some of the action, especially in fast horizontal motion.

Canon talks out of both sides of their mouth here and did so at Canon's show at Paramount's Studio 19 in Hollywood last week. To the general public they yammer about HDV, and it's benefits, but to broadcast professionals, they go get the guy that knows his stuff, and the salesman goes on to the next prospect. After questioning them at the show, this is what they told me.

If you want the highest quality the H1 can deliver you can't use HDV. You have to record directly from the HD SDI outputs live. HDV is always be HDV (good or bad, depending upon your opinion). Canon just provides the output. You can decide to use it, that's up to you. It just costs much more.

At the show, all the H1s were attached to HD SDI monitors too to show the best image. And all the demonstrations were prepared with HD SDI equipment.

This allows Canon to serve more than one market. They can appeal to prosumers and broadcast facilities at the same time with the same camera. The difference is how you choose to use it.

--Dave

Thanks Dave, that's what I figured. I'm a little confused and, frankly, surprised that Canon would be even suggesting otherwise to users. It's not in their best interest to say something can be done when it clearly cannot.

It'll be interesting to see what Chris can extract from this spokesperson/technician from Canon.

Wow...What a response!

I dont mean to be mis leading, but that is what the woman in the info room told me. I asked her if she was sure and she said yes, it takes up more disk space as well.
I was a bit awed myself...
Don't kill the messenger...I am simply reporting what I was told

(I thought it was too good to be true and asked her if she worked for Canon and she said, No, she is just a private contractor)

Sorry, I didn't mean to be misleading...Apologies...Thanks Chris for the vindication


True for lossy data compression. Note that some codecs use a lossless data compression, in which case, everything can be retrieved.

This is kind of what she was saying......Its really a shame it's not true...I wonder then why bringing in the HD-SDI from HDV takes so much more space...I was deleriously happy for the last few hours, alas

Wow...What a response!

I dont mean to be mis leading, but that is what the woman in the info room told me. I asked her if she was sure and she said yes, it takes up more disk space as well.
I was a bit awed myself...
Don't kill the messenger...I am simply reporting what I was told

(I thought it was too good to be true and asked her if she worked for Canon and she said, No, she is just a private contractor)

Sorry, I didn't mean to be misleading...Apologies...Thanks Chris for the vindication

...Its really a shame it's not true...I wonder than why bringing in the HD-SDI from HDV takes so much more space...I was deleriously happy for a few hours

If you use HD SDI, it takes much more space to store 1.4 Gbps information than 25 Mpbs information. However if you record HDV out of the HD SDI port, you are just recording more information, in this case uncompressed HDV data.

That doesn't make it better, only bigger. Garbage in, garbage out they always say (not that it's garbage, that's just the expression). In other words, if you uncompress HDV it looks just like uncompressed HDV and takes more space to store it... but the information is still lost, it's just bigger (uncompressed).

I hope this helps.

--Dave

No it is not! HDV is a highly compressed format. Color space and motion are compressed too and the missing information is permanently lost. Eight bit color has a maximum of 256 colors for each of red, green, and blue. 10 bit color has 1024 colors. This color is lost forever. Motion information exceeding the capacity of the compression scheme is also lost forever.

The only way you can get 4:2:2 1.4 Gbps HD SDI is to record directly to a recorder such as the Wafian HR1 or a Sony HD SDI tape deck. However even then, the motion is compressed somewhat but 10 bit color is preserved. The motion is much better too. The real damage is caused when you record to the HDV tape or 1394 outputs. All the benefits of HD SDI are lost. The biggest problem is not color space but motion recorded to the tape. HDV compression loses some of the action, especially in fast horizontal motion.

Canon talks out of both sides of their mouth here and did so at Canon's show at Paramount's Studio 19 in Hollywood last week. To the general public they yammer about HDV, and it's benefits, but to broadcast professionals, they get the guy that knows his stuff and the salesman go on to the next prospect. After questioning them at the show, this is what they told me.

If you want the highest quality the H1 can deliver you can't use HDV. You have to record directly from the HD SDI outputs live. HDV is always be HDV (good or bad, depending upon your opinion). Canon just provides the output. You can decide to use it, that's up to you. It just costs much more.

AT the show, all the H1s were attached to HD SDI monitors too to show the best image. And all the demonstrations were prepared with HD SDI equipment.

This allows Canon to serve more than one market. They can appeal to prosumers and broadcast facilities at the same time with the same camera. The difference is how you choose to use it.

--Dave

OK got it - Thanks Dave

She was specifically saying that the 4:2:0 color space does Not change but that everything else compressed is reconstituted. The data rate is probably where her confusion is
She said that was the process for the Video's that were shown to us in the first part of the demo (quite stunning projected)
...It's Funny they had the watchmaker there in person on a set, and were filming him

I don't know why Canon doesn't make the Watchmaker available online as either a WMV9 or Quicktime file.

I don't know why Canon doesn't make the Watchmaker available online as either a WMV9 or Quicktime file.

I have the Watchmaker .MOV files on the DVD I got at the Canon show but the files are not compatible with Quicktime 7 for the PC. They are stored in the Avid .MOV and DVCPRO HD .MOV format for Apple.

I'll try again to see if I can load the file in PPro2 and output it in .WMV9. If I can, I'll upload it if Chris will let me. But it is a copyright violation I think.

>>> Sorry I tried it and PPro2 can work with the files.<<<

--Dave

Thanks Dave, I don't think you will have much luck with PP2 though. Can you render it to a PC friendly format through Avid?

Actually, your footage WILL look better if edited uncompressed. You still start with the same image though...just as you add transitions, effects, filters, CC, etc. you are WAY better off editing in DVCproHD or uncompressed as HDV is IMHO a pretty terrible editing codec. It is not really fair to say it "unpacks" it or anything though and if you just do straight cuts, etc. you wont notice any difference...


ash =o)

Obviously most do not edit in HDV. I thought it was assumed that the HDV stream was going to be converted to a better more robust codec. In my case Cineform. While it won't look better than the original HDV source it will stay more intact throughout multiple generations of editing/color correcting.

Just to be fair to John Benton, the presenter at last Sat's Birns & Sawyer training seminar made the same comments about playing back the HDV tape out to your computer via the SDI connection for better quality than the firewire.

I was scratching my head thinking how do you upgrade from the already HDV compressed file - how do you put back what's not there to start with?

Will be very interesting to hear what Chris H finds out.

The other item about the SDI that's still not fully answered is whether the SDI output stream truly conforms to the SMPTE advertised specs which require 10 bit. David Newman of Cineform has posted on his site that it is actually 8 bit. Then there is the rumor that it's 10bit with 2 bits containing no data? This would be important for those chromakeying/green screening, heavy compositing/layering, or working with some forms of animation integration.

Just to be fair to John Benton, the presenter at last Sat's Birns & Sawyer training seminar made the same comments about playing back the HDV tape out to your computer via the SDI connection for better quality than the firewire.

Is it possible the confusion was on the word "playback"? Is it possible they were referring to simultaneous SDI out and HDV record?

Best,
Christopher

Yes that's correct. If you use Cineform's Aspect HD with Adobe's PPro or Connect HD with Sony's Vegas you will get much better results than editing HDV. These products create intermediate files that preserve the 8 bit 4:2:0 color space of HDV. However the file you acquire with Cineform's products can not be better than the original HDV file, but the quality will not degrade through the editing process.

To get the most out of the H1, use the Wafian HR1 or the AJA Xena card and Cineform's Prospect HD to acquire full 4:2:2 10 bit HD SDI data at 1.4 Gbps in 1080 24p. This must be acquired live, not by playing HDV files back through the HD SDI port.

The Wafian HR1 also removes the 3.2 pulldown and stores the files in true 4:2:2 10 bit 24p. This solution competes favorably with systems costing much more money such as the Sony HDC-F950/SRW-5000 combination although my choice would be the Sony if price was no object.

--Dave

Obviously most do not edit in HDV.

As a reader of the Adobe forums, my guess is most Premiere users edit HD projects in HDV.

Best,
Christopher

As a reader of the Adobe forums, my guess is most Premiere users edit HD projects in HDV.

Best,
Christopher


I agree with Christopher's assessment, but I think that the professional level users as opposed to advanced enthusiasts will likely use something like Cineform to maximize their results. I have PPro 2.0, and can get a decent edit with HDV "native". Aside from the $500.00 saved from Aspect HD purchase, I also avoid need to increased hard drive capacity. However, in a professional situation, I could see no reason why I wouldn't go to the intermediate format to increase the quality potential of the final product.

Guys,

I just did another tethered SDI test yesterday, rolling HDV tape while simultaneously capturing lossless HD to the Sheer codec via KonaLH/G5/FCP.

I recorded closeups of a babbling brook with water rushing all over the frame--basically filling the frame with random high-frequency motion--to unquestionably, MAJORLY stress the HDV codec and therefore be able to examine the differences. I recorded 24F and 1080i modes both to tape and the computer...and the results were interesting: HDV 1080i breaks down into noticeable macroblocking more apparently than 24F HDV, and I think this is due to the differences in bits allocated per frame, and the efficiency of progressive MPEG2 encoding vs. interlace; yet both paled in comparison (as you would expect) to good quality I-frame acquistion, in this case the Sheer lossless codec. (it's about 45 MBs--my single SATA drive in it's fastest partition barely kept up with it!) I'm sure CineForm in it's best quality modes would've been quite similar.

All in all, it was an interesting confirmation of what my gut level feeling was of the differences between MPEG2 at such a low bit rate and high bit rate I-frame HD acquisition. I must stress that what I tested was WORST CASE SCENARIO stuff, and watching the material in full-motion wasn't nearly as bad as pausing on the frame...and most people will rarely shoot footage like this that basically brings the codec to its knees.

Both are great for what they are; Canon's HDV is an amazing feat of processing for how compromised it actually is, but the SDI port offers TOTAL peace of mind for those wanting imagery with no compromises that will compete with the established broadcast HD cameras and formats.

In all, I'm very happy to have both options. Like everyone else though, I just want a PRACTICAL SDI option (cough*laptop*cough*FirestoreSDI*cough)

But this "unpacking" SDI thing is misinformed marketing hoo ha. I've done captures to uncompressed, DVCProHD and other formats from HDV tape through SDI, and of course, the firewire route of DVHSCap and MPEG Streamclip. Quality-wise there was no difference, but the firewire route made export to 24p intermediate files SUPER EASY compared to trying to inverse telecine material captured from 1080i SDI.

To get the most out of the H1, use the Wafian HR1 or the AJA Xena card and Cineform's Prospect HD to acquire full 4:2:2 10 bit HD SDI data at 1.4 Gbps in 1080 24p. This must be acquired live, not by playing HDV files back through the HD SDI port.--Dave

Dave,

What is the bit rate of full quality 10bit 4:2:2 CineForm? You say that you are acquiring the full 1.4Gbps data from SDI, but in reality the Wafian or Xena are only feeding the codec that bit rate. What is CineForm ultimately crunching it down to in terms of what speed a hard drive needs to cope with for a successful capture?

Man, I can't wait for your product to be integrated in QT/FCP too.

Will it be possible in the future with an SDI express card to capture CineForm to a high-end (i.e. most processing power) laptop?

Is it possible the confusion was on the word "playback"? Is it possible they were referring to simultaneous SDI out and HDV record?

Best,
Christopher

Good thought Chris, but, no, it was just Miss Information at the Canon event...

Funny thing is that I said I was on a lot of these forums (DVinfo/XLCinema etc) and she said that you gotta be carefull because most people on those forums don't really know what they are talking about...
Ha

As a reader of the Adobe forums, my guess is most Premiere users edit HD projects in HDV.

Best,
Christopher


That may be the case for HDV in general but if you are going to invest $9000+ dollars into the Canon H1 then I'd think you would want to preserve the quality and not edit in HDV. I sold my HVX200 and switched to the Canon H1 only after learning of the Cineform workflow and seeing the results. Prior to that I would not have considered working in HDV because of the lossy nature and poor response I saw when editing it. However these 2 problems were alleviated with Cineform.

Peace!

That may be the case for HDV in general but if you are going to invest $9000+ dollars into the Canon H1 then I'd think you would want to preserve the quality and not edit in HDV.

Yes, you would think so. In addition to quality and performance issues, you can't even access 24f or 30f with Premiere's native HDV editing. However, as foolish as it may sound, there are people paying $9,000 on an HD camera who refuse to purchase third-party codecs. The Adobe PPro 2 feature list says "edit in native HDV", and that's what they insist on doing. Vist the Adobe forums and you will see them complaining about this or that limitation of native HDV editing, and when you suggest using Cineform, they refuse to take the advice, and will accuse you of being a Cineform shill.

Now, when I respond to forum questions about editing HD, I first ask them about their budget. The majority of PPro 2 users moving to HD did not plan a budget, and spent every dime on the camera. If they respond they have no more money to spend, then I try to help them with native HDV editing. I dont' think it's advisable to move to HD without first understanding all the purchases that will be needed, but what can you do. The new low-cost HD cameras are a major driving force behind this problem, but there are some owners of $9,000 cameras who fall in this group as well.

Best,
Christopher

Very well said, Christopher.

Thanks Dave, I don't think you will have much luck with PP2 though. Can you render it to a PC friendly format through Avid?


Sorry Steve, I only have PPro 2 and older versions. I don't have Avid but there are .MOV files on the DVD for Avid.

I can upload the files if Chris will allow it but they are created specifically for Avid. Another set on the DVD, according to Canon, was converted from Avid files to DVCPRO HD .MOV files for FCP on the Mac. Canon provided no files for the PC in Cineform which I could use. As a matter of fact, at the show, they didn't even show Cineform software. The only PC software I saw was Avid.

Canon's position here is interesting since probably more than 60 percent of the serious PC users use Adobe Premiere or Sony Vegas on the PC (IMHO). And anyone interested in editing HD 24p/24F on the PC is using Cineform.

--Dave

I can upload the files if Chris will allow it...Not a question of me allowing it, but of Canon USA allowing it. The Watchmaker demo is Canon's intellectual property which is protected by copyright; they have every right to control how it is distributed. If I offered it for download without their express permission, that could mean serious legal trouble. I'll ask their marketing director tomorrow (I'm at CineGear in Los Angeles all day but will try to get the call in to CUSA anyway).

Absolutely understood Chris. Thanks for you efforts.

Not a question of me allowing it, but of Canon USA allowing it. The Watchmaker demo is Canon's intellectual property which is protected by copyright; they have every right to control how it is distributed. If I offered it for download without their express permission, that could mean serious legal trouble. I'll ask their marketing director tomorrow (I'm at CineGear in Los Angeles all day but will try to get the call in to CUSA anyway).

Thanks Chris. I knew you wouldn't post anything until you talked to Canon. By the way, I really enjoyed the Cine Gear Expo yesterday. I had hoped that Red had something more to show than a cute little girl telling us how much we will love the modularity of their great idea (camera). I hope they show something soon.

Lot's of good stuff to see. I especially liked the Dalsa Digital Cinema display. I even got a chance to shoot a few minutes of the Elvis impersonator singin' n dancin'... Thank ya very much!

I also enjoyed the complimentary drinks from 2 to 5 yesterday at the bar in the main tent. It's unusual for a show to pass out free drinks rather than charging $5 - $8, but I guess that's because one of the sponsors was a wine company.

I'm headed back for a few more hours again today, and plan to attend two or three master classes on Sunday.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the show as much as I am.

--Dave