View Full Version : Nasty Jagged Edges
Daniel Baker June 21st, 2006, 02:54 AM Not sure why I'm getting jagged edges on curved objects...did a search on this form and didn't seem to find anything exactly like this:
http://myspace-377.vo.llnwd.net/00851/77/38/851998377_l.jpg
Which setting have I set wrong this time?
Wes Coughlin June 21st, 2006, 07:39 AM If you want to get ride of the "jagged" edges or interlace look, i would shoot a progressive mode. 30p or 24p. Just make sure you editor projects are set for progressive and not interlace, as it requires the computer to interpet the footage properly.
Jarrod Whaley June 21st, 2006, 09:17 AM This kind of aliasing doesn't look like an interlacing kind of issue to me... It seems to be more of a resolution/compression/color space kind of thing.
Daniel--try dialing down the vertical detail a few notches.
Daniel Baker June 21st, 2006, 10:06 AM I'm already in 24p mode, sorry if I didn't mention that.
I'll knock down my verticle detail and see what happens.
Thanks!
Eric Brown June 21st, 2006, 11:53 AM enter "xl2 aliasing" in the search box and have at it. Plenty of useful info to be read.
Daniel Baker June 21st, 2006, 08:35 PM Thanks,
...but I had already done a search and didn't get anywhere...I tried the suggestions and still have jagged edges. I just went through the search results a second time and still nothing.
Jarrod Whaley June 21st, 2006, 08:49 PM Are you only seeing this on your computer monitor? What about on a TV?
Ash Greyson June 21st, 2006, 09:28 PM Settings? That does not look normal...
ash =o)
Daniel Baker June 21st, 2006, 09:37 PM Well...just did some testing on the TV, and you really can't see it as much...but then again you can't freeze frame...it's not a perfectly clean edge but at least it doesn't look like frogger.
I tried with and without verticle detail, and with softening the image...i'm also using a .5 black diffusion. I'm thinking this may just be the look on a comp. monitor...which is a bummer cause I'd like to display the video on the internet.
Gah...
I like my guitar...it doesn't have jagged edges...just pointy edges ;)
Jarrod Whaley June 21st, 2006, 09:46 PM Is your monitor an LCD? I hear CRT's have less problems with aliasing, as a general rule.
Keep playing around. There are ways to minimize stuff like this, but sometimes it requires a lot of trial and error.
For what it's worth, your jaggies might go away when you re-size for the web. Or they may get worse... Depends on the final output resolution. Rescaling can either cause or alleviate aliasing, depending on the amount of scaling. In fact, if you were looking at your footage on your monitor at a scale beyond the NTSC scale, that might have been a big part of the problem.
Anyway, tell Ash what your settings were. He really knows this camera extremely well.
Daniel Baker June 21st, 2006, 10:21 PM Ah, sorry, I missed the settings question...:
I'm on a CRT monitor.
I call this preset The Vice! ;P
24p @ both 3:4 and 16:9 (jaggies on both settings)
Gain -3
Gamme: Cine
Knee: Low
Black: Press
cMatrix: Cine
cGain: 0
cPhase: 0
rGain: 0
gGain: 0
bGain: 0
vDetail (more problems on Normal, but still a jagged on Low)
Sharp: -4 (on the recent shots for sure...old, not so sure, maybe higher)
Coring: 6
SetupL: -6
MasterPed: -4
NR: Low
I was intentionally crunching the blacks really hard for some low light shots where I wanted a little more contrast. I will probably bring this back up before the shoot so I dont kill my shadow detail...
Ash Greyson June 22nd, 2006, 01:00 AM Is that +6 or -6 on the coring? With the gain at 0 or -3db you do not need to turn up the coring and should probably leave it at zero. The more you raise it the more it removes noise from micro-details, the more you lower it, the more the microdetails get noisy. This is almost a sharpness setting for fine detail only, think something like mesh, lace, etc.
Also, your noise reduction should be OFF, as there should be no noise at all with a lowered sharpness and default coring setting at 0 gain.
ash =o)
Daniel Baker June 22nd, 2006, 02:10 AM Sorry, coring was at +6
Yiesh...it's like my guitar amp...I had to go buy one of those fancy modeling amps that simulates everything under the sun...and now I have too many buttons to worry about...what I wouldn't give for a solid 1x12 tube amp with three knobs that just sounded good by itself!!!
J/K
I'm actually enjoying this little discovery process.
Let me ask you this then now:
1. If I have a .5 black diff. filter, what does that mean for the sharpness and coring? Would I just start loosing definition if I turn down my sharpness? I'd like to get a really gritty detailed image for this video, which I guess is why I had the coring cranked up. Think good shots of old worn and warped lumber.
2. If I wanted to get the light to fall off rather quickly into darkness, yet retain some information in the shadows, do i keep my black on press and raise the MasterPed or vice verse or change the setupLevel...so on so forth...?
I actually have some look/feel/vibe shots from other videos and such that I'm using as a reference if you reeeeeeeeeally want to see them.
As alwayse, thanks so much!
Ash Greyson June 22nd, 2006, 12:58 PM Looks like your settings are really for high gain, low light situations... the coring at +6 is normally something you do to take the edge off of grain caused by the gain being up. The black diffuser will have a similar effect, making textured surfaces look smooth. So I think it is not proper for your application since you want detail and grit. Most of what you are adjusting is going against the "gritty detailed" image you are seeking.
Sure post a grab and I will help you out. There are SOOO many ways to handle blacks... You can stretch them, then turn the setup level all the way down. You can leave them in the middle, etc. etc. I only recommend bumping up the MP when you are in a high contrast situation and have to lighten up part of the image that becomes too dark when you get good exposure on the overall frame...
ash =o)
Daniel Baker June 22nd, 2006, 03:13 PM Well...maybe detailed and gritty aren't the best words to use...take a look:
Here are some screen grabs from other videos (lighting_ideas.jpg). I'm going more for the look of b1-3/c3...with smatterings of the others.
SSPX0083.JPG is a shot of the foyer I'll be using.
Here are some test shots I've done...They have been edited heavily and I'd like to get as close to this with the camera and lights as possible:
http://www.greenbeetlestudio.com/test_guitar/test_guitar1.jpg
http://www.greenbeetlestudio.com/test_guitar/test_guitar2.jpg
http://www.greenbeetlestudio.com/test_guitar/test_guitar3.jpg
http://www.greenbeetlestudio.com/test_guitar/test_guitar5.jpg
So far I really like the .5 Black Diff...it gives this very subtle organic glow to things...I'm just worried that if I turn down my sharpness on the camera I'd loose clarity.
Ash Greyson June 22nd, 2006, 03:39 PM Do you have a promist or black promist filter? That will add some glow and get you closer to the Switchfoot video look. As far as settings... try this...
White Balance: Warm (balance to light blue)
Gain -3
Gamme: Cine
Knee: Middle or High (the highlights look blown out in your grabs)
Black: Middle or Press
cMatrix: Cine
cGain: +1
cPhase: 2 toward RED
rGain: +2
gGain: -2
bGain: +1
vDetail: Normal
Sharp: 0
Coring: -3
SetupL: -6
MasterPed: -3
NR: OFF
Daniel Baker June 22nd, 2006, 05:02 PM Whoa!
I'm gonna have to do some test footage with that...though I've had some trouble white ballancing to anything but tungsten...the colors tend to go to a really harsh orange red...maybe my lights?
How could I balance to light blue? Would I use a card for that? Or a daylight gel?
How about if I wanted a similar look, but with sort of an ice cold sunlight feel
?
White Balance: Cool
cGain: -1
cPhase: -2
rGain: -2
gGain: +1
bGain: +2
And what about that verticle glare in the switchfoot video? Is that a post thing or another filter?
Jarrod Whaley June 22nd, 2006, 05:33 PM How could I balance to light blue? Would I use a card for that? Or a daylight gel?Sorry to horn in here, but...
Yeah, just point your lens at something blue when you do a white balance. You want to find something with a dull finish so there won't be any glare, and you want a nice flat blue area with no other colors or markings. Try different shades of blue for varying amounts of warmness (darker blues will skew toward orange, lighter blues will be much more subtle).
EDIT: Just remember that you'll need to be able to WB to the same blue object any time you need to replicate the color temp. You may not need to do so, since the XL2 has the custom WB settings, but it's a good idea to have something you can easily carry around just in case. Someone on this board once suggested paint sample cards from the hardware store, which I think is a great idea.
Daniel Baker June 23rd, 2006, 12:07 AM That's a really good idea!
Ash Greyson June 23rd, 2006, 03:18 AM The vertical smear effect is most likely a filter, I did some of that in the doc I directed. You CAN achieve a similar thing by making your shutter speed VERY VERY high, this will cause an anomaly called vertical smear where lights will blow out vertically with some green highlights, interesting effect but VERY "crispy" looking...
ash =o)
Daniel Baker June 24th, 2006, 12:28 AM Here's an interesting grab from some test footage I did with a new home made gold reflector (ie, the fabric store had a sale on shiny gold stuff).
However, there are still some jagged edges (see top left and right corners on the glasses frame) and some strange verticle banding on the nose...
Is this just something I'll have to live with when viewing footage on a computer?
Ash Greyson June 24th, 2006, 03:39 AM Where are you seeing this? In what program, on what monitor, etc.?
ash =o)
Daniel Baker June 24th, 2006, 03:05 PM Filmed on an XL2 with the preset you gave me minus the color tweaks. 16:9, 24p
I captured into Premier Pro 2, this screen grab was from AfterEffects. I'm using a Samsung CRT monitor (SyncMaster997mb), high rez...Seems the image on a TV is a bit smoother though...just so strange for it to look so rough on a computer.
...and GEEZE I wish I had the 3x Wide Angle lense...stupid small house cant get the camera far enough away grumble grumble grumble...
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