How Long, O Lord, how long til there are P2 cards of a non-maddening length? Seriously, when do ya'll think Panny (or someone else) is going to come out with bigger cards?

In all honesty, the net result doesnt gain you much, the bigger cards will take longer to back-up and transfer. It will let you shoot longer without a P2 store or laptop but even with two 16GB P2 cards, that is only 32 minutes of full rez HD...



ash =o)

Only 32 minutes of "full rez HD" is all you'd get from a tape-based DVCPRO HD camcorder anyway, such as the VariCam. Panasonic AJ-HP64EL cassettes yield 32 minutes of DVCPRO HD video at an 18 micron pitch. So it's not as if you could gain anything if the HVX recorded HD to tape instead of P2. This fact is too often conveniently left out of these sorts of discussions.

If you refer to my P2 Recording Capacities chart located at http://www.p2info.net/articles/misc/p2cardcaps.php, you'll see that a pair of 16GB P2 cards will give you an hour and twenty minutes of 720p24 DVCPRO HD. If you're willing to shoot at 24fps, you're getting more than double the recording capacity than you'd have at 1080i60.

Well, then, back to the speculation on the pricing and release date of those 16gb cards... :)

My wild stab: $2499/Q3 2006

Only 32 minutes of "full rez HD" is all you'd get from a tape-based DVCPRO HD camcorder anyway, such as the VariCam...So it's not as if you could gain anything if the HVX recorded HD to tape instead of P2.

An interesting point as far as P2 versus tape is concerned. But now if you need longer continuous recording times you can use an external hard drive recorder; it's too bad there isn't a version of the HVX200 which is designed from the ground up to work with hard drive recording.

How Long, O Lord, how long til there are P2 cards of a non-maddening length? Seriously, when do ya'll think Panny (or someone else) is going to come out with bigger cards?

At NAB they mentioned that it should be towards the end of this year. I'm guessing November/December, and probably around the $2000 price point. I'm guessing 4GB's will be down around $350 by then, and 8GB's down around $800.

As for bigger ones, those may show up a lot sooner than once thought. The ultimate size of the cards is dictated by the underlying SD card size, and the initial roadmap called for 128gb cards by sometime around 2010. 128gb cards are dependent upon there being a 32gb SD card, of course. Samsung has announced that they've made a breakthrough in NAND technology that could see a 32gb SD card on the market as early as the end of this year. I'm sure it would be exorbitantly expensive at first, but we could potentially be seeing 128gb cards as soon as a year from now, which would give you two cards' capability of 10 hours of 720/24pN footage in the camera in one continuous load.

Sheesh, 128gb P2 cards? That's a whole lot-o'-footage, 24pN or otherwise! =)

Well, when Panasonic does go about making bigger cards, I hope they don't get rid of the smaller capacities. I personally would like to work with the 4 or 8gb P2 card workflow. It just seems like more gets done faster to me.

Betsy,

One word: "Cineporter".

Once it's out and tested stable/reliable that would be the way to go vs. more P2 cards. Heck, for the price point if it had been available (and tested) I'd certainly have purchased that rather than the 2 8GB P2 cards.

No doubt, the 'Porter is bulky, adds wieght and makes any handheld shoots more of a challenge, but if there's one thing I've learned about being an indie producer, it's learning how to transform the equipment I can afford into the perfect production device. Heck, I think it's that exact kind of thinking that spawned the 'Porter's existence to begin with!

Sorry Chris but you really missed my point. When a tape is full, you pop in another tape. When your P2 cards are full... then what? You are looking at a good hour to transfer and verify twp 16GB P2 cards. If you can shoot out your day on two 16GB P2 cards, then great. If not, then...like I said, you have not gained a lot. The P2 workflow is really meant for people who dont shoot more than an hour or two per day anyway. I generally shoot more than that and I am looking forward to a solution that will avoid the lengthy transfer/verify process of P2. Firestore is still too buggy.

What becomes of the P2 store when there are bigger cards? It doesnt make a lot of sense to have a device that will only back up 3 cards. AFAIK, the issue is with Fat32 and the partition limit correct? There cant be more than 15 partitions of 4GB right? Or does that just pertain to firewire offloading?


ash =o)

...When your P2 cards are full... then what? You are looking at a good hour to transfer and verify twp 16GB P2 cards...The P2 workflow is really meant for people who dont shoot more than an hour or two per day anyway.


I'm curious, what method are you currently using to transfer your P2 footage now? I've had many days of day-long shoots and it takes no more than 5 minutes to offload 2 - 8GB cards, so why would it take an hour for 16GB cards? In fact, during a typical work-day of being on set for 8 hours I can shoot about 5 hours of footage. That's taking in to account multiple takes on scenes, "creative breaks" for myself and talent and of course 2 food breaks. And, plenty of time for P2 xfr.

Is the P2 transfer process longer than inserting a new tape? No doubt, but we're talking about literally a few minutes, not hours.

To say the P2 system was only designed for a one-hour-a-day shoot is, well...inaccurate at best. If that had been the case no P2-based camera, either the HVX nor it's ENG cousins would ever have made it off the retailers shelves.

By my account 80% of the people who bought an HVX complained about short record times and the added steps in transferring clips. There is more than one way to xfr P2 clips; if your method is costing you more time than you're comfortable with then maybe it's time to rethink your workflow.

I have only one 4 gig P2 card, but I shot 40 minutes of footage last night. I was just filming the Golden Gate Bridge between HD and SD, and the process was pretty simple and straight ahead.

Film on the P2 until it's full, then pull out the card, toss it in my Powerbook and start downloading the footage. While the footage is downloading, I shoot in SD, adjust camera angles, level of zoom, camera settings for nightfall, etc.

Then when the P2 card is ready, the camera is set up. Throw the card in the camera, back to filming. Fill up the card, back in the laptop. Then back to SD, film to tape while the card is offloading.

Rinse, repeat for 2 hours. Lots and lots of footage, and I didn't miss anything. It generally took me about 4-8 minutes to offload a 4 gig P2 card. It's pretty similar to capturing in real-time at my settings, but the re-use and no deck being needed are excellent bonuses.

I'm curious, what method are you currently using to transfer your P2 footage now? I've had many days of day-long shoots and it takes no more than 5 minutes to offload 2 - 8GB cards, so why would it take an hour for 16GB cards? In fact, during a typical work-day of being on set for 8 hours I can shoot about 5 hours of footage. That's taking in to account multiple takes on scenes, "creative breaks" for myself and talent and of course 2 food breaks. And, plenty of time for P2 xfr.

Is the P2 transfer process longer than inserting a new tape? No doubt, but we're talking about literally a few minutes, not hours.

To say the P2 system was only designed for a one-hour-a-day shoot is, well...inaccurate at best. If that had been the case no P2-based camera, either the HVX nor it's ENG cousins would ever have made it off the retailers shelves.

By my account 80% of the people who bought an HVX complained about short record times and the added steps in transferring clips. There is more than one way to xfr P2 clips; if your method is costing you more time than you're comfortable with then maybe it's time to rethink your workflow.




Uhh... how are you transferring 16GBs in 5 minutes? I have not used P2 very much because I am just not confident. I have used 4GB cards and a rented P2 store or even shot straight to a 1200HD deck. I have also tried dumping from the camera to an OTG drive but that is BRUTALLY slow...


ash =o)

Uhh... how are you transferring 16GBs in 5 minutes? I have not used P2 very much because I am just not confident. I have used 4GB cards and a rented P2 store or even shot straight to a 1200HD deck. I have also tried dumping from the camera to an OTG drive but that is BRUTALLY slow...


ash =o)


This topic came up in the flash drive topic in the industry news area and was addressed there, but here we go...

First of all, the P2 Store is dreadfully slow - by design. That's all there is to it. Don't even think about using the P2 store unless you absolutely have to... It sucks and at only 60GB (53GB real world capacity) it's not all that great.

Current P2 cards have transfer capabilities of about 400Mbps for the 4GB cards and a bit over 500Mmps for the 8GB cards. Assuming you don't have problems with your system and everything is functioning as it should be, then downloading a couple 8GB cards in about 5 minutes sounds about right. Works here for me just fine... I didn't mention it in that other thread when talking about which system I use, but I can also pull the cards in about that fast on my HP ZD7000 notebook too... Or at least as fast as the 100GB 7200rpm HDD or external HDDs will allow.

First of all, the P2 Store is dreadfully slow - by design. That's all there is to it. Don't even think about using the P2 store unless you absolutely have to... It sucks and at only 60GB (53GB real world capacity) it's not all that great.


Dreadfully slow, by design? Why would anyone design something to be dreadfully slow?

Dreadfully slow, by design? Why would anyone design something to be dreadfully slow?

For that you'll have to ask Terence Mallick.

I am going to try the P2 software that is basically a P2 Store emulator and see how that works out...



ash =o)

128gb cards are dependent upon there being a 32gb SD card, of course. Samsung has announced that they've made a breakthrough in NAND technology that could see a 32gb SD card on the market as early as the end of this year.
This really begs the question of whether the HVX200 will be the last P2 camera marketed, at least in the sub 2/3" market. P2 was originally conceived of necessity, an ingenious way of getting a realistic amount of solid state memory into a package with write/read speeds capable of handling 100Mbs.

If 32GB SD cards really do make an appearance later this year, then surely P2 becomes unnecessary, and cameras recording directly to SD/CompactFlash will potentially make far more sense, and make the use of solid state viable for a far greater number of people? Especially combined with the likelihood of more efficient codecs such as JPEG2000 and AVC-Intra - the quality of DVCProHD at 50Mbs!

This really begs the question of whether the HVX200 will be the last P2 camera marketed, at least in the sub 2/3" market. P2 was originally conceived of necessity, an ingenious way of getting a realistic amount of solid state memory into a package with write/read speeds capable of handling 100Mbs.

If 32GB SD cards really do make an appearance later this year, then surely P2 becomes unnecessary, and cameras recording directly to SD/CompactFlash will potentially make far more sense, and make the use of solid state viable for a far greater number of people? Especially combined with the likelihood of more efficient codecs such as JPEG2000 and AVC-Intra - the quality of DVCProHD at 50Mbs!

There is one factor not mentioned; the advantage of the P2 architecture isn't just being solid state, but that it's SD in a RAID configuration. As the P2 whitepapers show (and if I had a 4GB card to test against my 8GB I could prove) that as capacity increases so does R/W speeds. A single SD card cannot compete in R/W speeds to that of a comparable P2 card. Consider the same comparison of a single HDD of any capacity vs. a 4-HDD RAID in the same capacity.

So while larger SD cards are about to hit the market the spin-off benefit is that the P2 cards will then get the larger capacites and become faster.

Panasonic didn't design P2 as in intermediate step for eventual migration to another media, it is and will be a long-term technology investment just as XDCAM is for Sony.

My guess is that within 2 years, P2 capacities and speeds will be fast/large enough to handle full-res uncompressed HD from Vari-cam type bodies or, more advanced P2 bodies.

Although the ENG version of the P2 body has been on the market for almost two years, the P2 system is very much still in it's infancy and within the next 2 years you'll see it become much more powerful and versatile on both the hardware and software sides of production.

If 32GB SD cards really do make an appearance later this year, then surely P2 becomes unnecessary, and cameras recording directly to SD/CompactFlash will potentially make far more sense, and make the use of solid state viable for a far greater number of people? Especially combined with the likelihood of more efficient codecs such as JPEG2000 and AVC-Intra - the quality of DVCProHD at 50Mbs!

While that is all true, it doesn't render P2 obsolete. By using the larger form factor, P2 can still continue to deliver increased storage and bandwidth vs. a single SD card. Also, P2 is form factor and interface standard. The internals pertaining to the storage method and medium are entirely dependent on the manufacturer. There is no reason future P2 cards couldn't consist of 2 CF cards internally or other forms of nonvolatile memory. Another example would be the CinePorter in that it is a P2 device that connects to an externally mounted hard drive system. There is no reason we can't have a PCMCIA 802.11N network card with a P2-compliant interface that could buffer and stream error-corrected and verified DVCPROHD100 wirelessly to host system with a competent RAID or other storage system. Could be a notebook computer or a system on a cart in studio or a system in the back of a van on location... I chose the new Wireless-N standard that's pending approval as it has sufficient bandwidth to handle multiple DVCPROHD streams and it has the range and fidelity to cope with just about any indoor or outdoor situation with farily large distances (better than 802.11A or B/G).

So while larger SD cards are about to hit the market the spin-off benefit is that the P2 cards will then get the larger capacites and become faster.

Panasonic didn't design P2 as in intermediate step for eventual migration to another media, .........
In my previous post (and referring to whether the HVX200 will be the last P2 camera marketed), I did add the rider "at least in the sub 2/3" market", and I would like to stress that. It's quite conceivable that P2 will remain as preferable in the high end sector, but I'd maintain that the real significance of the news Barry posted (at least to the big majority of users) is that it opens the door to a viable much-lower-than-P2-cost solution in the future, as opposed to it simply allowing larger P2 cards to be built.

In the past CF/SD just wasn't an option for professional video. Now it is. In the past P2 was a necessity, now it just allows faster downloading into a high end system.

For *most* users I'd maintain that the benefits of P2 will increasingly be an unnecessary expense cf CF/SD, and that to be especially true at the 1/3" end of the market. So whilst there may well indeed be future high end P2 cameras, it wouldn't surprise me if the HVX200 is the last at that price point.

This really begs the question of whether the HVX200 will be the last P2 camera marketed, at least in the sub 2/3" market. P2 was originally conceived of necessity, an ingenious way of getting a realistic amount of solid state memory into a package with write/read speeds capable of handling 100Mbs.

If 32GB SD cards really do make an appearance later this year, then surely P2 becomes unnecessary, and cameras recording directly to SD/CompactFlash will potentially make far more sense, and make the use of solid state viable for a far greater number of people? Especially combined with the likelihood of more efficient codecs such as JPEG2000 and AVC-Intra - the quality of DVCProHD at 50Mbs!

Hi David

Wow................. where did you get that info on 32GB SD cards?

After a fairly extensive search on the net all I came up with was Pani's 4 GB cards and some blather about a new SD standard being discussed. Didn't find anything on >4GB cards. If you have a link please post it.

I think it would be great if SD could do up to 32GB. :-)

Thanks
JohnG

Hi David

Wow................. where did you get that info on 32GB SD cards?
I was merely commenting on what Barry Green said in post no 6 in this thread, drawing a different conclusion from what he posted than he did - that if the cards do indeed become a reality by the year end, then the real significance is more likely that future cameras will simply record to CF/SD than P2. Perhaps Barry would like to furnish the reference you ask for?

Sorry Chris but you really missed my point. When a tape is full, you pop in another tape. When your P2 cards are full... then what? You are looking at a good hour to transfer and verify twp 16GB P2 cards...

Ash well said, this P2 stuff needs to be addressed!!