Hi,

I got my hd1 two days ago after being impressed by Carlos,Joseph and Bo's videos.

While playing around with it i notice that in very low light(with one 60w table lamp on in the hall) while have it set to iso 400(aka 1600) my camera and the resulted videos develope purple noise unlike the ones seen in bo's restaurant pan which are black.

Now the thing I find odd is the purple noise while mostly random, some tend to concentrate in specific area of the lcd forming vertical lines! This is especially visible uni color walls. And it appears on the same area everytime I conduct the test.

Secondly, in the same lighting situation, if i get too close to a wall or zoom in, my lcd shows a split screen where there is a line deviding the movie into 50/50 segment!

I am thinking of returning it but the problem is this would take time and I will be going on a holiday soon. I wonder if somemone would be kind enough to confirm that this infact isnt a defect but a design fault? It doesnt happen in normal lighting conditions. These faults are most obvious during tv shq mode. everything auto and iso 400

Thanks and any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Update:

I was reading the other threads and realize that the split screen is indeed a defect. However, mine is barely visible and its only during extreme conditions and during sequantial shots in low lights at iso 400. Can someone please try this for me and let me know the results?

What really bothers me is the vertical purple lines mention above. and I was wondering if someone could also try this and post some results and see if they are similar.

I could post some examples to better illustriate it but I am not sure where to host them. Where do some of you guys upload your videos?

I am getting pretty worried and I am not sure if its worth risking the exchange since my trip is around 11 days away.

..........

Sorry, for jumping to conclusion. this problem I am having is kinda stressing me out :( .

It was meant as a gift to my girlfriend and I wanted to make sure everything is perfect before handing it over so she would be perfectly happy and do not have to deal with warranty issues... sigh.

You really need people with the camera to confirm, but for some reason they are not replying, maybe there is a new thread they are all hanging out on.

Hi again,

Ok, I finally uploaded the file here

http://files.filefront.com/SANY0003MP4/;5140742;;/fileinfo.html

I hope the link works and its a pretty small file

Details about the file: The shot is taken with everything set to auto, NR turned off and iso set to 400(which is 1600 for video). It is shot in tv shq which is 640 x 480 highest quality mode.

The room is about 3 x 5 meters and the only source of light was a single ceiling room light which is a frosted 60w bulb

In this video, both the split screen and purple lines are visible. the split screen is more obvious as I move closer to the wall and it devides the screen 50/50.

There isnt any source of bright lights or direct light since the bulb is covered and its behind me.

Let me know what you see and thanks

Good Morning John,

Downloading right now.

The way you describe the split screen, I "peronally" feel that its a pretty normal HD1 you got in your hand. But the purple seems new. (smile) Regardless, by default, the HD1 do not perform well at 400iso and personally I limit the gain to 200iso feeling that its better to shoot a bit dark rather than having a snowstorm. :-)

.... Still downloading - comming down through a Sony Edge card, so one gotta have a bit of patience.

done.....

OK I see the "purple streaks og bars" - for being at iso 400 on a solid background, thats about what you can expect with the camera, stop shooting solid walls and set your camera to iso 200 instead. (smile)


Bo

www.bophoto.com/HDV

Hi Bo,

Thanks for the reply :) . Unfortunately, even at 200iso the purple streaks can be slightly visible(particularly the one in the middle towards the right). I am very curious on why your videos does not show them, even with the 400iso pan.

Even Josephss lowlight videos (the one with the cats) doesnt seem to show it

Because it appears on uni color objects, it will be visible everytime the camera hits a table, wall, box and even posters... Can get pretty annoying :( Does your camera show the same purple line and split screen? Perhaps if this is a common issue to expect, I might not have to return it and maybe hope that the hd2 will be better.

Thanks and your insights are very much appreciated, have a great day!

John,

If the purple streaking is evident at 200iso, then I would think about trying a different unit. ;-) after all you do want to be ablet to shoot in somewhat low light without bothersome streaks.

One thing though, this camera do not stand up to close expection very well, and is much better off being just used. (smile) shots agains solid surfaces just do not fly well at all. most of the clips which looks good are with moving backgrounds with "stuff" in them. ;-)

Bo

www.bophoto.com/HDV

From other post: I see what you mean, I thought you meant the lines where turning up in the same part of the room, this does sound unusual. Maybe you could try calling Sanyo service line about what they think.

I heard stories about Sony selling truck loads of the Sony 1000VX when it was released, because it was new and cheap. Sanyo could have done the same thing with these if they were good enough and didn't have the problems. Stations could give all their camera and reporting staff one to carry around and film anything interesting that unexpectedly happens, that they are not setup to shoot with their regular cameras. But the problem is that there will be better h264 competition soon.

OK, I see it, this looks like the stuff over at the camcorderinfo review samples. Looks like some variation of charge on the pixel columns, the lines have some even spacing. The gain is probably pushing pixels closer to the edge of the threshold, or causing leakage in the columns from the circuits on the bottom etc, producing the line problem. I don't know what the actual definite problem is. The colored pixel noise problem is probably the debayering response to the gain noise I said before.

Your footage seems to be in quiet low light compared to the cats footage. Try setting the white balance manually, I notice that it is trying to make the reflected light on the wall blue, this might lower gain on the blue channel.

This camera has bad low light performance, and this is just more low performance. Maybe it shouldn't be there, or maybe it could be made better at the service centre, but maybe it is just cheap.

Can other people try to replicate the purple lines for John.

Can other people try to replicate the purple lines for John.


Yeah, if only someone would, that would be most excellent!

I am currently on negotiations for an exchange. However, the ebay shop I bought from requires me to confirm the defect with the local sanyo. Problem is will Sanyo Australia be of any use since they don't even carry the product in the local market.

The 7 days no hassle exchange seems to be coming more of a hassle :(.

The ebay shop probably knows that, I didn't realise you were local, which part of the country?

Warning:
In the computer market, there is a market were batches of units that have a higher than normal failure rate, or are sub standard, are sold cheap. Unfortunately they get resold into the retail channel as standard quality components.

How companies manage standards is make the manufacturing process, test samples and label it as, say, 5 in 1000 defective. They don't necessarily test them all thoroughly, but factor in the cost of the defective ones returned. A batch that is 50 in 1000 defective might simply get sold at a much cheaper price.

I don't know if Sanyo does this, but be careful with dubious retailers.


Advice:
If the ebay store that you got this from is local, they might well know that there is no local HD1's. Ask Sanyo Australia immediately anyway, if there is no help, try Sanyo Global, describing the situation, that clip is good to link to as well, so they can see how bad it is (and it is very poor). If they won't help you give them model and serial numbers, and ask them which market/country that the camera aims to and contact Sanyo in that market.

Hi, I've contacted sanyo australia and they would only inspect the camera if I could provide the warranty card

This is the place I got it from

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7623606733

Seems pretty reputable and safe... The thing is there isnt a warranty card and I am not sure what to do next. I've even provided them the link to this thread and I am still waiting for a reply. The online live support never works and I've left many "tickets" with my email address for aftersale support and have yet to get a reply. The only way I can contact them and get a reply is when I reply from the presale ebay address they use to correspond with me previously.

I will send sanyo japan an email soon.

re-edit, just looked at that page, no wonder you bought it, $799AU, is a bargain compared to what cameras usually go for over here compared to the American price. So it definitely is not an Australian distributor, so most of the Aus stuff below is irrelevant.


Contact them straight away, talk to them on the phone if possible as well, explain that Sanyo will not verify "the fault" because there is no warranty card, ask them for a date from when you first contacted them, for return application, in case the 7 days runs down. Ask them what you should do, and that given the circumstances the only real option is to receive the camera back. See about getting a warranty card.

Contacting Japan is good, but at this stage, try contacting everybody simultaneously to save time, you don't want it to take weeks. I guess you re saying it was the Japanese market model, if it was destined for another market, contacting them is good too (this all requires work on anybodies part but the people that sold this to you in cases like this. Look at the system information and compliance plates to see if the country is mentioned, googling the model number might reveal which countries it is sold in, and you can verify by contacting Sanyo in that country/market.

You can give Sanyo Australia a link to the video you put on line, so they can verify where ever this is acceptable or a fault, they don't have to look at the camera directly they should have sufficient experience to verify it. You can explain that it didn't ship with a card and where it is from. If you are talking to somebody that answers the phone ask to speak to someone further up in management, and keep moving up until you get somebody in charge of the lot that can look at the video and give a finale answer.

If there is a 7 day money back return, what is the problem with returning it, unless they stipulate that it has to be defective?

If they are in Australia, check with consumer affairs to see if there is still a 30 day warranty that applies (not that they would want to listen to that).

The lack of warranty card is the great giveaway.

I bought a HD1 on eBay but it came with a warranty card, and my local Sanyo have given me a 12 month guarantee.

If you can stop the money somehow, I would do it without further hesitation, i.e. if you can use your CC or Paypal to dispute this.

Return the item and start again.

Bear in mind, other things may go wrong with your cam - people with gray units are reporting that the whole cam locks up and shows only black..

'Bite the bullet', 'grasp the nettle' and quickly extricate yourself from this.

Hi

Yeah I should probably do what you guys suggested. The only thing I cant do is stop the payment because the money was already diposited to their local bank previously.

Thanks for the advice.

Graham, since you have the camera and imply that I should take action, are you implying that this camera is indeed defective and your unit show no such problems? perhaps getting more users to confirm this would make it easier to proof that they indeed do need to take it back. Especially the fact that I've included the link to here in the email. The least they could do is have a look.

Thanks and I hope this will be over soon. Its things like this that prevents us from enjoying newly acquired toys. This sucks since we are going on a 1 month holiday end of next week. Not only I can't use the camera, I won't even be around to handle the matter.

I moved this here as obviously you already replied while I was editing it in:

What Graham said, I agree with, it seems to be dragging on, even a temporary hold to sort it out, and reporting it to ebay that there maybe a problem, before you go the full way. Somebody is goign to get negative feedback at the end of the day it it doesn't work out, as long as it isn't you. But, you got to ask is it really worth it. It would be good if people could verify it is as a problem first, by picking up their cameras in dark room and seeing ip the purple lines comes up.

That question is not as easy for me to answer - my tolerance for poor low light videography is so low that I tend to stick with natural light!

But surely it is just a matter of picking up the camera tonight, putting one very dim light on (as John did) and filming dark places like in Johns clip, putting the thin in the base and playing back to see if it is there, two minutes. It is quicker then replying to this post.


John, I notice that they give 12 month warranty, so at least if something breaks with the grey import you can get it fixed, and you don't have to have it back by 7 days. If you take too drastic action against them prematurely you might get bad feedback.

It is a sellers warranty, is that what they mean by local agents, their local agents, not Sanyo Australia.

I remember when Sanyo used to be a significant company, even when Sanyo was an Australian company, and almost the time when Canon was, and Haminex, and Kambrook (bought by LG) etc. Pity.

It would be good if people could verify it is as a problem first, by picking up their cameras in dark room and seeing ip the purple lines comes up.

Yeah thats what I've been waiting for. Unfortunately even after 30 downloads there hasnt been much feedback regarding this matter.

I've got a friend whom I showed the xacti to recently only to have his purchase held back due to this issue. He is now considering the sony hc3 simply because of its availability and probably better QC. I am suprised that they didn't know better and asked me to check with Sanyo Australia. Without a warranty card, its obvious Sanyo would not respond to my request and this is just a waste of my time.

Wayne: Yeah, its seller's warranty, I am fine with it as long as they honour it. Further more, I prefer to exchange it because the repairing could mean more problems in the future. I believe mass manufactured miniturized electronics isnt meant to be handle by hands, and what more if the person isnt a top tier sanyo engineer. I mean, this stuff are manufactured mostly by automated proccess, I doubt u could tweak a ccd or fix dead pixels with a tweaser... this is why I rather have it exchanged

It might be an adjustable setting that suppresses the lines, but otherwise, they either send it to Sanyo, or replace it. Some things are just thrown away, because it cost too much to repair them.

I just tried it and didn't get exactly the visual symptoms you refer to. It looked awful, obviously.

I just tried it and didn't get exactly the visual symptoms you refer to. It looked awful, obviously.

Hi! Thank you for your input.

it can be a little hard to detect if the camera is set to HD. however it is still very much visible. Its most obvious when its on tv shq at iso 400 or 200. And yes it does look awful. While random noise are expected, I cant stand the concentrated collumns of lines as shown in the bottom of my video. Sorry to trouble you but have you seen my video?

Update:Either my browser isnt working(which is both firefox and IE) or their after sale support link does not work

http://www.digitalrev.com/ebay/au/default.asp

I moved this here as obviously you already replied while I was editing it in:

What Graham said, I agree with, it seems to be dragging on, even a temporary hold to sort it out, and reporting it to ebay that there maybe a problem, before you go the full way. Somebody is goign to get negative feedback at the end of the day it it doesn't work out, as long as it isn't you. But, you got to ask is it really worth it. It would be good if people could verify it is as a problem first, by picking up their cameras in dark room and seeing ip the purple lines comes up.

I will not leave a neg feedback yet. However if this drags on too long, I just might have to. and I wouldnt mind recieving one as long as I know I've done nothing wrong and this is a matter of principle. They should get it sorted out for me and not at my expense.

I've provided them the link to this thread twice. they simply ignored it in all their replies as if it wasnt part of my email. it isnt really that hard to get one of technicians to have a look at it.

Update:Either my browser isnt working(which is both firefox and IE) or their after sale support link does not work

http://www.digitalrev.com/ebay/au/default.asp

also, if you notice in the ebay page, they have a skype id for me to contact. I've added it to my list and am still awaiting authorization from them since yesterday!

"Sorry to trouble you but have you seen my video?"

Yes, I have watched that, but couldn't replicate it during my own short test.

New shots,

iso 400: tv shq

http://files.filefront.com/SANY0034MP4/;5149319;;/fileinfo.html

Iso 200: tv hq

http://files.filefront.com/SANY0036MP4/;5149350;;/fileinfo.html

Either I've begun to notice it more or it seems more obvious. These are in brighter condition. I did try shooting around the room in hd. And that too is clearly visible. If you guys want I could upload the hd file as well.

John,

For what its worth.

I can replicate the snow, but not the purple lines.! have tried again and again. not happening.

Sorry.

Bo

www.bophoto.com/HDV

Thanks everyone. And for some weird reason, I consider this as great news. Not only it put my curiosity to rest, I can be sure now that is indeed defective and will demand an exchange without doubts.

Sencondly, I am very glad that an ok hd1 will be great and not as bad as what I've experienced. Low light is important to me, even at the expense of grain... which is ok since its random, but I cant tolerate the fact that every video I record in less than ideal condition makes it look as if I was recording a from prison cell.

Thanks to all who took effort in sorting it for me. Extremely appreciated.

John,

You said "low light is important to me" - with that in mind, as much as I appriciate what the HD1 does do and have done for me.. I have to say.. the HD1 is NOT by any means a low-light camera. ;-)

Bo

www.bophoto.com/HDV

<snip> shots agains solid surfaces just do not fly well at all. most of the clips which looks good are with moving backgrounds with "stuff" in them. ;-)....<snip>Yes! This is a problem with mpeg, in general, including mpeg2 (notice the noise and moving textures on homogeneous surfaces on DVDs). H.263 mpeg4 (HD-1) is worse. H.264 mpeg4 (AVC) is perhaps somewhat better, but often trades blocks for the moving textures on the same, nearly homogeneous, surfaces. Dark / low contrast regions are the worst!

This is actually the artifact that drives me the most nuts. Blocks and ringing are usually not a problem to my eye, except at (too) low bitrates.

Speaking very generally here. ;)

-Cal, DivX Forums Moderator

This is getting frustrating.

They told me to contact Sanyo australia to confirm the defect. today would be my 2nd time calling them and the results are as expected:

Sanyo will not bother with it for two reasons.

1)there is no warranty card to speak of and

2)it is not available in the local market and so they can't provide advice of any sort.

It would be tommorow before I can get another reply. I am suprised that they don't know better that it isnt available here and sanyo will not entertain such request.

It would be faster if they could provide me their local agent's contact number but somehow, after 3 request for it, it was ignored and no number given.

Also, they said they couldn't download the video and my discription isnt clear enough for them to justify that is indeed a defect.

I've been mailing them since last saturday, This is taking a little long for a no hassle defect replacement or refunds.

They should know, and you have explained it to them that Sanyo just doesn't do it. But you were contacting Sanyo Japan, and I take ti they are the market your camera was to go to, that market is the one responsible for answering your questions (but Japanese headquarters is good still).

They (the seller) don't understand, then explain it to them better, they are fuzzy vertical columns at the bottom of the screen disappearing as they go up, not straight pure liens. They mar the image and make it look slightly ridiculous the worse ti gets, and with the already snowy picture are just a bit too much. Attach an JPEG of the worse frame you can find, actually two if you can find a really bad one in a well lit area as well. View the JPEG quality before you send it. If they say they can't view the JPEG then maybe they are no being honest, or maybe not competent.

If windows media player can't play it, maybe they are trying to play with that, tell them that they need to download to camera and play to HD TV through it, or load it into the Sanyo software at 1280*1024 resolution. If they can't do anything like that, it would be amazing, though you could try telling them to try Quicklime (or DIVX if that si compatible). What ever you do attach the jpegs so they have no reason to say they couldn't do it.

Hi,

I am not sure how else to explain the problem. I've provided this link and I've stated many times that there are lines that shouldnt exist on a normal working hd1.

If they can't even work on how to download or playback the videos, can you imagine attempting to repair it?!

Because they only seem to answer my quiries via ebay msging system and not mails I send from my email account. I am unable to attach any jpgs.

Also, I dont think they are taking me seriously.

Here is what happened. In a reply from them yesterday, I recieved a pregenerated form which I am suppose to fill up and attach it to my returning parcel.

Here is the thing,

1)In the list of items that I am returning, they only require the camera, and the battery. I would expect that since it is suppose to be replaced, I should be sending the entire package back. Otherwise how would the serial numbers match? And this is not a matter of being vague either because the form has a clause that explicitly states:

"3) Only item(s) listed in the 'Items Returned' section are authorised for return. Please note that we will not process any additional items returned that are not part of the above list."


2)Secondly, in a box that discribes my reason for returning it says:

"Return Reason

Purple noise randomly appear under iso 400 mode. No problem in normal lighting conditions"

Which is not even my reason at all!

Bare in mind that they also repeatedly reminded me that if there isnt a defect, I am liable for all cost incured during the return.

Guess it will be Monday night before I hear from them again... sigh.

Update: Their agent in Australia is very friendly and helpful. I am glad that he decided to inspect some of the videos I will be sending him and give me a faster response, even when its a weekend

That's good, I don't like the sound of the other mob. Did you put a hold on the payment, or did you do direct debit?

BTW, which region do you live in, I'm in North Queensland?

I tried a Samsung the other day, I was told new models were 6 to 8 weeks away, they are the bunch doing a h264 720p camera. Too small for my hands, does this one handle better?

Hi,

They finally took me seriously and decided that it wasnt a joke after their Australian agent took the initiative to download the vids and send it to their HQ. As a result, I was told to send the entire package instead of just the camera.

I think it handles pretty well but thats not for me to decide since its my gift to my GF.

However, my opinion is, I love how you can do almost everything with your hand in shooting position. Truly one handed operation and the joystick is fantastic. There are things which I found extremely useful such as unlike most cameras, you do not need to switch to playback mode to review a photo or video you've just shot. You can even have it deleted in the proccess. I find this awesome and I am sure my GF will love it. Beats switching back and forth everytime u wanna view pics.

The weight to size ratio is also very good. To me, just the right weight to keep from overshaky. Also the way it is designed makes it very comfortable to orperate. Unlike normal video cameras, this one just feels more natural on my wrist and grip and does not induce the strains like a normal video camera would if use in long periods.

Inspite of the noise in low light, honestly, if you dont shoot everything in auto(which is my guess on why there are so many negative reviews on amazon and such). It is pretty suprising and I was expecting less. To me, noise is better than darkness! But don't take my word for it on this one, I am coming from a sony-dsc m1. Which is pretty bad in lowlight situation excepts the videos are almost noiseless.

Do you have links to the upcoming samsung cameras? I am pretty intrested as well

Have a look at this:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/search.php?searchid=530747

Pretty much has all the links to Samsung, Ambarella and AVCHD h264 camera information, just skip all the threads listed there from this forum.

The Sony HC1 is the standard that all HD cameras should aim to beat. The Sanyo manual controls are nice from what you guys describe. Let's hope that all future cameras are at least as good as these two cameras in each and every way. From the quality of past Samsung cameras, I would recommend a careful look first.

I'm glad your problem is sorting out, they should have looked at it in the first place.

They finally decided that they will issue a refund. However, they mentioned that they've done so on sunday but I've yet to see it in my bank. Lets hope I am not getting my leg pulled here as this is taking rather long for a bank to bank transfer

John,

In my experience, refunds always seems to post rather slowly.. go figure.


Bo