Have you posted any of your shots? What type of work do you do with the camera?

I just started to use it and I do enjoy what it shoots. I also know that the HVX is capable of great looking images as well. My real concern is workflow. I am only a student in college and am going to start shooting shorts and the like.

I also understand that DVXPRO HD requires a lot of space, but I don't mind because I am looking for a camera to grow with, and the Variable Frame Rates, and 1080/24P really help in favor of the HVX200. I don't mind waiting until next year when I can afford a 1TB Raid.

Many film schools are also buying up HVX's from what I here.

I am new to a lot of this field, but I have been editing for a few years now. My high school had a great program, and I edited on G4's for three years on Media 100 systems.

I really love to write want to Direct my stuff, but the biggest thing for me has always been the editing. I have not had a problem with the HD100, but I want to go to Avid Xpress Pro 5.5 and next year the Media Composer and Avid shows no signs of the JVC support.

I want to go to Avid Xpress Pro 5.5 and next year the Media Composer and Avid shows no signs of the JVC support.No sign of support is a little mis-guided. Avid has a full family of products that are the backbone of their HDV effort. Avid's Liquid 7.1 will cut (quickly) any framerate (including 24p & 60p) that ProHD supports, right now. Xpress Pro may or may not get the full HDV timeline. Media Composer Adrenalin will work in 30p from the HD-100's m2t's.

AFAIK, ProHD has been adopted by every major NLE for 30p. 24p has been limited to Liquid and Cineform and quasi FCP (with add-on software).

Jason,

Like most, I will not tell you what camera you should buy, but instead ask more questions, and share our experiences.

First, what cameras have you used? What works for you? Have you shot with shoulder camers (ENG), hand held, or more along the lines of the Canon XL series (cram to the shoulder and shoot)? ;)

If you shot with an auto-focus lens system then the HD100 has a learning curve, period. Although no camera is perfect when it comes to autofocus, it's an option on the HVX if you get my drift. With some work you can more out of the HD100, or so I found.

Do you entend to shoot from a tripod for those long shots? Also with no OIS on the HD100 you may want to consider it. So add a good pan / tilt fluid head to your budget. Otherwise again you might prefer the HVX. It's fine to have camera motion if that's what you are looking for, but I quickly learned with the HD100 that the tripod is essential otherwise.

If you go the route of the HD100 you should at least consider at some time buying a better lens. I say this because it works fine for starters but much like the factory battery system, it could be better. I feel the HVX has a better factory lens (no choices, you get what you got) and produces less CA, etc., but the HD100 could smoke it with better glass. It's a trade off, out of the box the HVX has great color reproduction, better than the HD100 in my opinion, but the details of that image are softer and simply not there compared to the HD100. Even with the HD100's lens being a weak point, you can still get fantastic results, it just could be better.

Someone on this board once said to "shoot with the camera you shoot best with", and I could not agree more. Specifications aside, use what works for you. Until you are sure what camera that is, keep reading the forums from both HVX and HD100 users.

We shoot with both cameras btw, but if I only had room for one in my budget and I was shooting surf and docs... it would be the HD100, hands down.

No sign of support is a little mis-guided. Avid has a full family of products that are the backbone of their HDV effort. Avid's Liquid 7.1 will cut (quickly) any framerate (including 24p & 60p) that ProHD supports, right now. Xpress Pro may or may not get the full HDV timeline. Media Composer Adrenalin will work in 30p from the HD-100's m2t's.

AFAIK, ProHD has been adopted by every major NLE for 30p. 24p has been limited to Liquid and Cineform and quasi FCP (with add-on software).

Liquid Can't Capture the 24P though can it? Or does it edit the raw .m2t

Not that it makes a difference because currently I own a Mac. I will eventually get a Intel Mac that could run bootcamp so I can run whatever editing system I want, but that is far off.

Second, I don't mind the HDV, but I really want to get out of it, and I don't want to have to caputre any footage. I like the P2 workflow better. The Dr-HD100 is a option, but again I can't get the .m2t into Final Cut or Avid Xpress Pro yet in 720/24P. I also am starting to want the 4.2.2 DVXPRO HD Codec more.

Does Canopus capture from the HD100 or can it only edit it?

Either way, I think FCP will be the first to be able to capture from the camera and hopefully it does come out soon.

I also cannot put thousands of dollars into lenses since I really would rather have a New Computer first.

I am not trying to blast the HD100 in any way...It is an amazing camera. I love many of its features, but it wasn't the perfect one for me. That's really what it comes down to, which camera is better for you since both excel at what they do.

EDIT: Can someone explain to me the difference between FCP Native HDV editing, and this Smart GOP editing that Liquid Has?

Daniel, thanks for the comments and advice. This thread did kinda get jacked huh? I dont mind, lol! As far as past cams, I started in the biz with the Sony VX2000. I loved that camera. Did a killer job in low light! I used that for about three years, it started jacking up, I had it fixed, then I sold it. Then, I bought a Sony HVR-A1U. This is actually a pretty nifty camera. It makes pretty solid images, I just want a little more manual control. So now I have it on ebay. If I could afford to keep it as a second cam, I would. I would just rather put my money into one solid complete rig.

I've never shot with an ENG style cam, and Im sure adjusting to total manual focusing would take some time, but that doesn't scare me. I was just under the impression that the HVX would be better for shooting surfing in the case that I would be slo-moing a lot of the shots down and the panny does really smooth slo-mo. The thing is, my time will be mostly split between shooting surf and wedding videography, but we also plan on shooting some dramatic work as well. I deff. plan on picking up an M2 eventually. Which camera has the best low light performance? That was another reason for me getting rid of the HVR-A1U. It was horible in low light situations, with no real manual gain. Wedding receptions man. Everybody wants the lights off, but they get mad when you put a camera mounted light in their face. Go figure. Ill eventually figure this out!

-burk

Jason, yes the HD100 did take some getting use to in regards to focusing, but now I find it anoying to use hand helds. :)

As for low light... I once again prefer the HD100 over the HVX. But then I know the options better on the HD100 and can tweak it better. We shot a very low light segment using the HVX and I hated all of the chroma noise in the source footage. They both need a lot of light. I prefer to shoot a "low light" scene with a good key light, a small amount of fill, and bring it down in post. But that's just what works for us, it's a more realistic approach.

yea that works for scripted work, but these wedding people and their crazy intimacy! lol

The HD100 is sounding like the way to go.

Liquid Can't Capture the 24P though can it? Or does it edit the raw .m2t
EDIT: Can someone explain to me the difference between FCP Native HDV editing, and this Smart GOP editing that Liquid Has?
Couple of things for you Steve.

1. Take a look at this thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=66199&highlight=FYI%3A) and watch the video tutorial. Liquid and ProHD are a match made in heaven for all frame rates.

2. PDF Whitepaper on Practical HDV editing (http://www.videoguys.com/images/PDF/Practical_HDV_27Jun05.pdf). This document is 3 years old and from Pinnacle but they were the pioneer in HDV.
More information on HDV and mpeg2 (MP@HL) (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/files/MainPage/Professional/TopTabItems/products/dc1000/WhitePapers/DC1000-DVD1000MPEG2whitepaper.pdf). This whitepaper will bring HDV into perspective with other formats Click here for whitepaper (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/BSD/liquidblue/English(US)/doc/WP_HDV_40804.pdf).

You can order a Liquid 7.1 trial and find out how easy it is to edit ProHD.

T. Dashwood was going to make a workflow stickie for people to demonstrate/post ProHD workflows but he went MIA.

I don't mind the HDV, but I really want to get out of it, and I don't want to have to caputre any footage. I like the P2 workflow better. I also am starting to want the 4.2.2 DVXPRO HD Codec more.
EDIT: Can someone explain to me the difference between FCP Native HDV editing, and this Smart GOP editing that Liquid Has?

Steve, given that you don't want HDV and do want DVCPRO HD -- why do you care about MPEG-2 editing?

I think you might better compute how many P2 cards you will need in order to do a "complete" HD shoot so you could bring ALL the cards back to your computer for editing "without capture." How you are going to keep many cards ALL mounted on your computer at the same time? And how will you be able to keep shooting while your cards remain with your computer for days, weeks, or months while you finish an edit? And, what will you dump ALL these cards to before you erase them? How much will this cost and how long will it take? Who will do it?

I have experience with both cameras. Not considering frame rates and image aspects because everything have been discussed already, I'm posting my experience in the field.

There are a few things that I really don't like about the HVX:
- It's too heavy and unbalanced for a hand held camera;
- The autofocus isn't accurate and manually is much worst than the HD100;
- The iris isn't also as good as a manual lens for making corrections;
- The zoom is too slow at full speed (slower then the DVX) and starts too fast, the one from the HD100 could be faster but it's much more progressive;
- The view finder is to small and the focus assist on the HD100 is much better;
- The P2 cards are too limited and expensive, you have to carry a laptop around with an external hard drive for backups. The firestone is a solution, but you'll need more batteries and you can't attach it to the camera when hand helding. Beleive me... you'll miss tapes.
- The HD100 works better under low light.

The HVX isn't versatile, I wouldn't use it for uncontroled situations like weddings or sports. In my opinion, for what you need the HD100 is the right choice.

The HDV editing hasn't really bothered my so much as of yet, aside from the workflow. I edit on Mac, and know that the FCP update will fix the 720/24P problem, but I really want to switch to AVID in the next year. Avid Xpress Pro does not support it yet, and as far as I know the Media Composer Software can Edit it, but not capture (I am not sure on this).

I do plan on storing the files to either my Powerbook when I shoot and eventually I will buy a P2 Store. The HVX can also offload clips to a self powered Hard Drive. I would store the files on my external Hard Drive.

The JVC is a awesome camera, I just don't think it is perfect for me, thats all. I really think I need a more Compact camera.

Indeed, Diogo's assesment is right on the money:

The HVX currently is not an ideal platform for anything uncoordinated or unplanned, nor for long-form recording. There are those that use them for those scenarios, but they're also creating workarounds for the shortcomings the HVX creates in those situations.

The HD100, H1 and Z1 are all better suited to event, run-and-gun or longform recording.

The HVX is optimized for movie production (where crews are used to 11 minute film loads), commercial spots, or anything in which any single clip/scene doesn't last more than a few minutes each and where having an external monitor such as the Marshall doesn't impede production workflow.

In any case it still goes back to the original concept of choosing a system; find the one that matches your production/output needs, then consider what workarounds you will need to create for your own personal workflow/shooting style.

With two 8 gb cards and two 4 gb cards we get an hour of 720/24pn.

Without downloading.

But that's about $3500 in tape equivalent. But reusuable

Jason, yes the HD100 did take some getting use to in regards to focusing, but now I find it anoying to use hand helds. :)

I have to agree 125% here. As far as I'm concerned full manual is the only way to shoot, simply because I get better results much faster than relying on automatic, without any annoying "hunting" except when I'm having a bad day.

With two 8 gb cards and two 4 gb cards we get an hour of 720/24pn.

Without downloading.

But that's about $3500 in tape equivalent. But reusuable

That's what you'd call a budget busting workaround! (laughs)

The HDV editing hasn't really bothered my so much as of yet, aside from the workflow.

I do plan on storing the files to either my Powerbook when I shoot and eventually I will buy a P2 Store. The HVX can also offload clips to a self powered Hard Drive. I would store the files on my external Hard Drive.

I really think I need a more Compact camera.

I completely agree on the need for JVC to release a 24p/60p compact camera with "one-touch" AF. There are many applications where weight, size, and "looking like a tourist" are critically important. And, with HD, AF can focus faster and more accurately than a human can using the built in VF or LCD or FA. Moreover, relatively few really are going to buy extra lenses. So, I agree completely with you on this. The HVX is a sweeit camera!

My concern is your claim that you want to work "without having to capture." Clearly, if you don't buy enough P2 cards to hold ALL your shooting, you must capture to something. Now you say you will be copying to your laptop. That's "capturing."

But for fun, do the calculations for an 80 minute movie with a 5:1 shooting ratio. (Also, try 10:1.) How many 8GB P2 cards do you need? What's their cost? The USB adaptor holds 5 cards. How many adaptors do you need? What's their cost? Can you connect these ALL to a computer at the same time?

Now compute the HD disk space you need to hold the same amount of 24p HDV. Remember, with Auto-shot detect, you don't have to do any logging during capture! Just copy the tape to HD just like you'll be doing with P2!

Bluntly put, there is no P2 workflow that works without "capture" unless you are shooting news.

Moreover, if you go read my HDV@Work newsletter from last month -- you'll learn that HDV is less compressed than DVCPRO HD "24N" and that 4:2:0 is symmetric color sampling -- very different that DV.

Lastly, why on earth do you want to move to Avid? And, yes it looks like JVC put enough pressure on Apple to get them to lie about 24p "coming soon." But Apple will do so ASAP. In the meantime, I'm beginning to like Liquid equally at only $500. It runs on a MacBookPro.

So I'd keep your HD100 and buy a MBP.

I feel the HVX has a better factory lens (no choices, you get what you got) and produces less CA, etc.,

I'd disagree. Having owned both cameras and ending up keeping the HD-100 I can tell you I got CA on the HVX200 when zoomed out past 50 and wide open.

That's the exact same scenario you get CA on the HD-100. Except the HD-100 opens up to 1.4 and zooms to 88 - which allows you to create much shallower DOF - but also amplifies CA due to increased bokeh among other things.

If you zoom back to 40 and shoot at F4 you get images that the HVX simply can't match.

In the end I chose to go with the camera the worked better on the set and changed my post to Premiere and Cineform to allow me to use the better camera. That pretty much sucked because I had a G5 and Final Cut.

The big thing was I really hated shooting the HVX. The HVX is harder to focus and P2 turned out to be more of a overall pain than the HD-100. The JVC also has less noise, is a better low light performer and has better resolution.

I just batch capture the entire HD-100 tape when I get home and I've still got an archive on tape. At that point you're right where you'd be after a P2 ingest except it took an extra half hour. You still need to name all your clips and log them either way. OK - on the panasonic you can grab "that one clip" and just import it. That's cool, but once you buy a hard drive recorder even that advantage goes away. And check out all the HVXer's that are now talking about using Cineform because it's a better codec.

I was just sitting over at a friend's house watching a HD-100 stock lens feature shot by some college students without much experience. We were only watching in SD, but we just kept commenting on how great it looked. He shoots the F-900 a lot and was convinced he'd shoot his next movie on a HD-100.

Oh - and if you want a Micro35, the F1.4 on the HD-100 is really handy. The HVX noise really shows up in the Bokeh.

For the moment, if you're a Final Cut editor the HVX is much easier to deal with. But if you don't have a monitor and extra lighting on set you're going to have to live with that out of focus noisy footage forever. J/K ;-)

Both cameras have produced great stuff. Anyone who commits to one or the other WILL get great stuff by shooting to the camera's strengths and end up happy.

Both cameras have produced great stuff. Anyone who commits to one or the other WILL get great stuff by shooting to the camera's strengths and end up happy.

"Shooting to the camera strengths" I think is the key. I could not agree more. I don't think everyone will be a strong shooter with the HD100, for those people maybe the HVX is key. Although I'm not a good example of that HVX user, I can honestly say that I had to work at being a better shooting with the JVC just the same.

I will agree to disagree on the lens however. I prefer the color reproduction of the HVX over the HD100 and I have found it produce less CA, although perhaps at an optimal setting. I found less color fringing overall on the HVX and I like that. It's still a trade off as the HD100 gives me far more to work with in post with it's detail and overall latitude / color, and as an editor first, I need that more than just straight color reproduction.

On every other account I could not agree more. The chroma noise of the HVX has me shooting more with the HD100 in low light, it looks cleaner when worked in the right hands.

We are also an Adobe post house with AE/PPro, so 720/24P works now and works very well with Cineform. In some ways it's sad how the Mac community thumbs their nose at PPro, but in other ways it's good for us while they struggle with a solid work flow. =P

I found less color fringing overall on the HVX and I like that.

I think the HVX specular highlights were consistently better than the HD-100 but I like the skin tones and roll off into overexposed skin tones better on the HD-100. More than anything I want people to look good and the HD-100 has been great for that. The HD-100 just feels like it has a little more dynamic range too. I'm sure you've tried dialing in Paulo's True Color settings, right?

I'm not sure what you're referring to as color fringing though. I don't like the sharpening any higher than minimum on the JVC because of the sharpening fringing that shows up. Is that what you're talking about? I'm going to experiment with sharpening off and add it in post one of these days.

I will have to admit this finally though - for all the pixel analyzing I've done it's pretty obvious that it's all about the content. Your average viewer isn't going to notice any of this stuff. I think you could point right to the CA or lens breathing or video noise and they'd go "Ssshh... I want to watch this" if something cool was happening.

You can't really look at the P2 cards as equavalent to tape. They're part of the camera system, like a tripod, battery or lens adapter.

Tapes are consumables. P2 cards are not.

Today, hard drives are the new tape.

I think the HVX specular highlights were consistently better than the HD-100 but I like the skin tones and roll off into overexposed skin tones better on the HD-100. More than anything I want people to look good and the HD-100 has been great for that.

When the first generation JVC's were bashed by the Sony VX2000 folks, the one thing that we owners kept loving was the WAY the color highlights looked. They looked like film, not video. When a saw the FX1/Z1 video for the first time I could not believe how it looked like no more than Sony DV with more detail.

I think the way a camera handles highlights is a key to real quality. Color reproduction is another. In this Panasonic has, IMHO, beat Sony for years. And, I'm sure the HVX is no different.

I completely agree on the need for JVC to release a 24p/60p compact camera with "one-touch" AF. There are many applications where weight, size, and "looking like a tourist" are critically important. And, with HD, AF can focus faster and more accurately than a human can using the built in VF or LCD or FA. Moreover, relatively few really are going to buy extra lenses. So, I agree completely with you on this. The HVX is a sweeit camera!

My concern is your claim that you want to work "without having to capture." Clearly, if you don't buy enough P2 cards to hold ALL your shooting, you must capture to something. Now you say you will be copying to your laptop. That's "capturing."

But for fun, do the calculations for an 80 minute movie with a 5:1 shooting ratio. (Also, try 10:1.) How many 8GB P2 cards do you need? What's their cost? The USB adaptor holds 5 cards. How many adaptors do you need? What's their cost? Can you connect these ALL to a computer at the same time?

Now compute the HD disk space you need to hold the same amount of 24p HDV. Remember, with Auto-shot detect, you don't have to do any logging during capture! Just copy the tape to HD just like you'll be doing with P2!

Bluntly put, there is no P2 workflow that works without "capture" unless you are shooting news.

Moreover, if you go read my HDV@Work newsletter from last month -- you'll learn that HDV is less compressed than DVCPRO HD "24N" and that 4:2:0 is symmetric color sampling -- very different that DV.

Lastly, why on earth do you want to move to Avid? And, yes it looks like JVC put enough pressure on Apple to get them to lie about 24p "coming soon." But Apple will do so ASAP. In the meantime, I'm beginning to like Liquid equally at only $500. It runs on a MacBookPro.

So I'd keep your HD100 and buy a MBP.

When I say without Capture, I meant Injesting without having to sit through the tape, but you are technically correct, but I should have been more specific.

Well I may be coming back around after last night. I shot a quick Pitch for that FX thing, and shooting wise, the footage came out great. I also had many takes, and the Shot Detect worked fine.

I will post more a little later.

When I say without Capture, I meant Injesting without having to sit through the tape, but you are technically correct, but I should have been more specific.

Well I may be coming back around after last night. I shot a quick Pitch for that FX thing, and shooting wise, the footage came out great. I also had many takes, and the Shot Detect worked fine.

I will post more a little later.
You were right about what you wrote about XpressPro though. With Media Composer "software only" coming out I'd expect you'd select that over XpressPro any day of the week. However, I use both Media Composer Adrenalin and Liquid in the workflows around here and for ProHD, Liquid 7.1 is the way to go currently. MCA will injest the m2t's as you wrote but will not capture them.

Camera specific comments: The HD-100 is as stable as a Betacam and as familiar in it's layout.

You wrote that you're in school. Are you using Bolex to create your film projects? what is your major?

You can't really look at the P2 cards as equavalent to tape. They're part of the camera system, like a tripod, battery or lens adapter.

Tapes are consumables. P2 cards are not.

Today, hard drives are the new tape.
Yes... not considering that for the price of a P2 you get thousands of hours on tapes! And there's always the risk of damaging hard drives... I lost all data from my PC a few times, fortunatly I have backups. I just can't imagine storing all my footage on a hard drive, I prefer keeping the originals on tapes.

I completely agree on the need for JVC to release a 24p/60p compact camera with "one-touch" AF. There are many applications where weight, size, and "looking like a tourist" are critically important. And, with HD, AF can focus faster and more accurately than a human can using the built in VF or LCD or FA. Moreover, relatively few really are going to buy extra lenses. So, I agree completely with you on this. The HVX is a sweeit camera!
You won't certainly look like a tourist with a HVX, wheight and size aren't it's better characteristics...

I've posted this before on the HVX board:

I have experience with both cameras. Not considering frame rates and image aspects because everything have been discussed already, I'm posting my experience in the field.

There are a few things that I really don't like about the HVX:
- It's too heavy and unbalanced for a hand held camera;
- The autofocus isn't accurate and manually it's much worst than the HD100;
- The iris isn't also as good as a manual lens for making corrections;
- The zoom is too slow at full speed (slower then the DVX) and starts too fast, the one from the HD100 could be faster but it's much more progressive;
- The view finder is to small and the focus assist on the HD100 is much better;
- The P2 cards are too limited and expensive, you have to carry a laptop around with an external hard drive for backups. The firestone is a solution, but you'll need more batteries and you can't attach it to the camera when hand helding. Beleive me... you'll miss tapes.
- The HD100 works better under low light.

The HVX isn't versatile, I wouldn't use it for uncontroled situations like weddings or sports. In my opinion, for what you need the HD100 is the right choice.

With Media Composer "software only" coming out I'd expect you'd select that over Xpress Pro any day of the week.

I agree that if you can get MC for $1000 while in school, that's a good deal. But be warned, Avid uses a 20 year old "model" interface that will drive anyone who doesn't use Avid CRAZY! Unfortunately, even Premiere and FCP have model "tools" and Liquid has three totally needless modes:

1) you need to enable Audio Edit Mode just to set/adjust/delete audio rubberbands. And, be sure to remember to exit the mode when you are done. Absurd waste of effort.

2) Liquid also has an Edit mode. Of course, if you are using an NLE you want to edit. What else would you be doing?

3) And, then there is Liquid's and Avid's OVERWRITE verses FILMSTYLE modes. Can't any NLE company realize we don't use Reels of tape, we use media; we don't drop film clips into Bins or hang them on Racks because VIDEO clips (representing data files) go into Folders; and, in fact, we don't need Timeline modes at all.

Think: there are only two ways clips are Placed into a Timeline or Removed from a Timeline. (A) Clips either shift-right upon going into or shift-left upon removal. This is best called Shift Mode, not FilmStyle. (90% of todays editors have never edited film and so have NO idea what this term means.)

(B) Non-shift Mode, where clips don't shift. The term Overwrite is simply false! Yes, if you direct the new clip into a track with a clip, the new clip MAY (given the cursor position) cause an overwrite. But, if the new clip goes into a track above a clip, NO overwrite will occur.

Moreover, despite the need for these two functions, we really don't need Timeline modes. Simply default to Shuttle operation. Then, when you want Non-shuttle operation, press SHIFT. To stay with Non-shuttle operation, press CAPS LOCK.

Modes are an evil that comes from the move from typewriters to the first primitive word processors. Programmers decided they had give users the options to Insert (push text right) or Overwrite text. In PC's you'll still find an unused INS or Insert key! Ever use it? And, what is the Home key for? (Of course, what does the RETURN key do?)

By the way, the first early `70's Wang Word Processors asked if you were "really, really sure" everytime you deleted anything. Amazingly, Avid and Liquid keep up this 25 year old nonsense. Why would I delete something if I didn't want it deleted? Today, even OS X has UNDO in the OS itself. (But don't me started on Apple's lack of a Delete key and laptops, that now run XP, that don't have both Left and Right buttons.)

Lastly, why would a programmer not assume if you click on the "space" object between two "clip" objects, that you are selecting a GAP so it could be deleted? You can't delete a gap in Liquid.

Sorry for the rant, but I've been reading Tom's Hardware's "Who designed this Crap" columns and I think we need one for video hardware and software.

Bottom-line, avoid software designed 20 years ago for film editors who had zero experience with a computer. Avoid FCP that was designed by the team who designed Premiere 1.0. Likewise, avoid Premiere Pro that copies the software that was designed by the team who designed Premiere 1.0.

Buy a Bolex and a $50 splicer. :)

To Steve Mullen: Quick Question

- What editing Platform do you use since you just about bashed every one but Canopus (Your Rant was very amusing)?

I am much happier with my HD100 after last night. In particular the Focus Assist. I was worried while shooting about focus, but everything turned out great with the Focus Assist enabled. That is something I am not sure I want to exchange for the Panasonics Zoom Focus Assist.

Also, I have a question for anyone with AVID knowlege.

Should I get the Student Upgrade to Media Composer, I know that it supports 720/24P, but the AVID guy (forgot his name) over at DVXUser said it cannot capture from the JVC (Not Supprised). If I buy the Focus Firestore, can AVID edit the raw .M2T file, or does some wrapper need to happen like in FCP. Also, the Firestore has it at a 60FPS file, not 24 so what happens then?

Can anyone explain to me what a Smart GOP Splicer is? I hear that some edit HDV better than others?

In PC's you'll still find an unused INS or Insert key! Ever use it? And, what is the Home key for? (Of course, what does the RETURN key do?)

I use the Home key all the time, it zips you back to the start of a line. I do a lot of text editing and it's very useful. I don't use INS myself but I do know a few people who use it to simply overwrite something they decide to change instead of deleting it then retyping.

You want to hear about the pains of modal editing, try using vi or emacs for text editing. There are nerds who swear one or the other is superior, but I don't see how having to use different modes to write and erase text is efficient.

Although skipping along a bit off topic... I like Steves mini rant. You are a detail oriented nit-picking crusty @#$%. But that works for me as I am not far behind and on your heels. ;) Building on an old interface as Avid has done is a mistake IMO.

Back on topic, I also agree 100% with Steve on the HD100's highlights. They can be damn sexy compared to the HVX, with a lot less work to get there.


Joel Aaron - "I think the HVX specular highlights were consistently better than the HD-100 but I like the skin tones and roll off into overexposed skin tones better on the HD-100. More than anything I want people to look good and the HD-100 has been great for that. The HD-100 just feels like it has a little more dynamic range too. I'm sure you've tried dialing in Paulo's True Color settings, right?"


I don't know Joel, we found specular highlights on the HVX to be good, like the color reproduction, but nothing nearly as captivating as the HD100. That additional dynamic range of the HD100 helps enhance that "look", or so I believe. And yes, I have been using Paulo's TC settings with detial set to no greater than MIN, and sometimes OFF when I want that slightly softer look.

To Steve Mullen: Quick Question

- What editing Platform do you use since you just about bashed every one but Canopus (Your Rant was very amusing)?

I am much happier with my HD100 after last night. In particular the Focus Assist. I was worried while shooting about focus, but everything turned out great with the Focus Assist enabled. That is something I am not sure I want to exchange for the Panasonics Zoom Focus Assist.

Also, I have a question for anyone with AVID knowlege.

Should I get the Student Upgrade to Media Composer, I know that it supports 720/24P, but the AVID guy (forgot his name) over at DVXUser said it cannot capture from the JVC (Not Supprised). If I buy the Focus Firestore, can AVID edit the raw .M2T file, or does some wrapper need to happen like in FCP. Also, the Firestore has it at a 60FPS file, not 24 so what happens then?

Can anyone explain to me what a Smart GOP Splicer is? I hear that some edit HDV better than others?

Funny you should bring that up Steve, 'cause last night I spent hours trying to import an .M2T file into Avid Xpress Pro HD and it gave a message saying it didn't recognize the file type. Now, I'm just starting to learn this Avid program, so I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. If not Avid, what NLE would recognize M2T files?

Funny you should bring that up Steve, 'cause last night I spent hours trying to import an .M2T file into Avid Xpress Pro HD and it gave a message saying it didn't recognize the file type. Now, I'm just starting to learn this Avid program, so I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. If not Avid, what NLE would recognize M2T files?

Ya, Steve give us your thoughts in this area.

Also, I have a question for anyone with AVID knowlege.

Should I get the Student Upgrade to Media Composer, I know that it supports 720/24P, but the AVID guy (forgot his name) over at DVXUser said it cannot capture from the JVC (Not Supprised). If I buy the Focus Firestore, can AVID edit the raw .M2T file, or does some wrapper need to happen like in FCP. Also, the Firestore has it at a 60FPS file, not 24 so what happens then?

Can anyone explain to me what a Smart GOP Splicer is? I hear that some edit HDV better than others?

Avid has three families of products:

Xpress, Media Composer and Liquid. Which software are you referring to? Liquid uses SmartGOP splicing and I provided a white paper above that explains the process exactly. XpressPro does not have anything of the sort nor does MC. They transcode.

The claim was (last year) that XpressPro was going to get the Liquid HDV timeline integrated but now the rumour is that XpressPro will not make it past version 5.52 and then fazed out in favor of MC software and the Liquid line of products. This is only a rumour but I could see it as a possibility.

We'll see...

I use the Home key all the time, it zips you back to the start of a line.

Me too. It also zips you right at the beginning of the timeline in FCP.

You want to hear about the pains of modal editing, try using vi or emacs for text editing.

And that's exactly why there's oly one editor: Emacs! ;)

Text Editor Wars!

Steve, loved your "rant". Very amusing.


Modes are an evil that comes from the move from typewriters to the first primitive word processors. Programmers decided they had give users the options to Insert (push text right) or Overwrite text.

It wasn't that arbitrary. We are talking about the "dark ages", terminals were relatively new and programming techniques were not nearly as sophisticated as thery are today. On top of that you add that mini computers and mainframes had a fraction of the RAM we have today. Modes were designed to be able to keep track of what the user was doing without bringing the whole system down with endless cycles of checking where the cursor was. Machines like the IBM S/34 didn't even have a "free form" filing system. Every file was stored as a database with a fixed "row length"


(Of course, what does the RETURN key do?)

Still need it to go to a new line. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna use it right...now!


Today, even OS X has UNDO in the OS itself. (But don't me started on Apple's lack of a Delete key and laptops, that now run XP, that don't have both Left and Right buttons.)

The Mac "Delete" button is equivalent to the PC's backspace (delete the character to the left of the cursor). On a Powerbook you can use the combination fn+Delete to delete the character to the right of the cursor.
I have Left and Right button on my Powerbook.

BTW, you want to talk about useless buttons? What about the "Scroll Lock" on a PC. Even with Lotus 1-2-3, in the DOS days, I never used it. Time to yank it out!

Take care.

BTW, you want to talk about useless buttons? What about the "Scroll Lock" on a PC. Even with Lotus 1-2-3, in the DOS days, I never used it. Time to yank it out!

Funny you should mention that, I've got a piece of computer gaming community software that sits behind the game you're playing and lets you talk to your friends while you're playing. Scroll Lock + X is the shortcut to bring up a chat window.

Funny you should mention that, I've got a piece of computer gaming community software that sits behind the game you're playing and lets you talk to your friends while you're playing. Scroll Lock + X is the shortcut to bring up a chat window.

HA! But I still vote for its removal because of all the times in my life I pressed it just to see the little light turn on.

P.S. Wouldn't it be more simple to just press the Scroll Lock...Or does it actually have a regular function?

Funny you should mention that, I've got a piece of computer gaming community software that sits behind the game you're playing and lets you talk to your friends while you're playing. Scroll Lock + X is the shortcut to bring up a chat window.
That's the only program I ever heard making use of the Scroll Lock and the reason is that that key is absolutely ignored by anything else :)!

That is something I am not sure I want to exchange for the Panasonics Zoom Focus Assist.

The first thing every HVX owner seems to do is get an external monitor. So much for "portable", and run and gun at that point.

The HVX focus IS what drove me crazy. That and the video noise in the lower midtones.


I don't know Joel, we found specular highlights on the HVX to be good, like the color reproduction, but nothing nearly as captivating as the HD100.


When I say specular I'm just talking about the very specular glint off chrome and glass etc. but not typical highlight areas. I think the HD-100 rolls into overexposure better and captures more detail in the highlight areas - so we agree (I think).

On the shadow side of the equation it ain't even close. The HD-100 grabs more detail, is smooth into the blacks, displays less noise, is more light sensitive than HVX from my tests. I set up some low light side by side stuff and though it doesn't make sense based on the numbers I could swear the HD-100 was 2 stops faster just looking at a monitor. HVX'ers often light a little hot to avoid noise whereas with the HD-100 you can just light it normally and be fine - so the end result is a pretty big difference.

I use the Home key all the time, it zips you back to the start of a line.

I don't see how having to use different modes to write and erase text is efficient.

I wasn't clear about HOME. I know what it does, but why was it named Home. Start or Beginning, or Top make sense.

I've found a new term in Liquid. You can "fuse" a clip. I haven't looked it up, but I'm having fun trying to imagine why Germans picked this term.

The German designers of the Casablanca NLE insisted in not changing the name of the Chroma Key Effect. They called it a BlueBox! Seems they never heard a blue box was used to make free phone calls.

One last rant. Watch any of the CSI or Law and Order. Watch Deadwood, Big Love, Supranos, etc. How many image tracks would you need to cut one of these shows? How many transition FX? Would you need a Transition FX editor? Would you need PIP? Would you bezier curves?

In short, would you need much of anything provided in today's bloated video NLEs?

What would you need? And, are there NLE's that are missing these functions yet provide what you don't need? Why are we buying these products? Is FCP really what we want? Is Avid?

And, unfortunately, Canopus took a great NLE, StormEdit, and turned it into a fancy Video editor.

Lastly, what NLEs provide the high-quality tools to place SD into HD?

My point is that our tools were designed decades ago for off-line film or snazzy video (ie, commercials -- the things we skip when we watch on a Tivo). Their GUI and toolsets are not what we need in a today's 24p HD world.

No one seems to support narrative 24p editing.

Does Canopus capture from the HD100 or can it only edit it?

I checked the Canopus forums and it looks like HD100 owners are having trouble capturing footage from the camera in Edius. Someone provided a link to the following info from JVC about making sure you get the correct firewire driver installed, which may help:

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/getResource2/e4_install_firewire_drivers.pdf?id=6129

...What would you need? And, are there NLE's that are missing these functions yet provide what you don't need? Why are we buying these products? Is FCP really what we want? Is Avid?

...My point is that our tools were designed decades ago for off-line film or snazzy video (ie, commercials -- the things we skip when we watch on a Tivo). Their GUI and toolsets are not what we need in a today's 24p HD world.

Steve, you and Paolo make some good points. Except for dedicated Avid systems (Thunder, Composer, etc.) the editing side has not kept up with the hardware side that's for sure (and even then, those Avid system are clunky with DV sources -- even worse with Blu-ray).

So, does that mean I won't be able to bring my HD footage into my Morrow CP/M?

The claim was (last year) that XpressPro was going to get the Liquid HDV timeline integrated, but now the rumour is that XpressPro will not make it past version 5.52 and then be fazed out in favor of MC software and the Liquid line of products. This is only a rumour but I could see it as a possibility.

I'm sure XpressPro has already lost the war to FCP and is likely to loose even more now that Adobe has Studio -- it does seem Avid might realize the Xpress GUI is simply never going to make Premiere or FCP editors happy while equally frustrating Composer editors. That's a lose, lose, lose, lose proposition for them.

Much smarter to keep the software Composer at $3000-$4000 ($5000 is crazy IMHO and I think they'll keep seeing sales go to FCP if they don't drop it -- soon. In fact, they may get very few sales at $5000.)

Then use Liquid to go after FCP and Premiere. Liquid is more powerful than either, but Avid needs to de-Germanize it plus support auto HD Timeline to SD DVD conversion, and add HD Timeline to Blu-ray burning.

I found another new Liquid term. One uses a "Clip" FX (which is really a "filter") for clip "alienation." Anyone want to guess what this means? (And, no it doesn't mean creating a depressed looking clip.)

I even found, in the "Avid" manual a reference to the TARGA board. Clearly, Avid never bothered to even edit the manual. They just changed "Pinnacle" to "Avid." And, worse, they don't ship the vital Reference Manual with Liquid.

New documentation is critical -- the two chapters on FX are muddled to say the least. Plus, you can see any detail in the screenshots!

this is a great thread. very informative.

thanks guys.

this is a great thread. very informative.

thanks guys.

It was hijacked from me and turned into a all-purpose thread!

just kidding, all good stuff!

but I still don't know what I want, lol

-burk

Hi guys,

About to take the plunge myself and still trying to choose between the JVC and the Panasonic. I am "an editor" more than videographer, and while this will have to be an all-purpose camera until we get enough revenue to justify a second (maybe a RED? :)), I will probably use it equally for greenscreen work as for documentary-style work (for which I'll likely get an M2 adapter).

I've done some greenscreen work with standard-def DV, and it ain't fun. I know the codec used by the HD100 and its successors is better by leaps and bounds, but how much better? I also heard someone mention that you can run analog cables out the back for a live 4:2:2 capture, but could anyone elaborate on the details of this setup?

My NLE is Final Cut, and I don't think we can set up the whole workstation in the greenscreen studio, so I'm wondering about MacBook Pros -- are there any cards available for the MBP that would work for this purpose?

Or, alternately, should I just go for the HVX? The CinePorter (if it passes muster upon release) pretty much knocks out the cost issues of the P2 system, and I could get a Spider Brace or other shoulder mount to help the form factor. Also, since I plan to get an M2, the interchangeable lens feature of the JVC doesn't help much (and until someone makes a relay lens, it's actually a hindrance). So I just don't know...

Any help/advice is appreciated!

Or, alternately, should I just go for the HVX?

In your case I'd probably lean toward the HVX unless the HD-100 has gotten easier to edit in FCP recently. With the HD-100 you pretty much have to convert to the Cineform intermediate codec, but once you've done that you're in a great codec. It's PC only the last time I checked.

I've actually owned both cameras and I preferred the usability and picture of the HD-100 so that's the one I kept and I adapted my editing software to suit the camera. I have the Micro35 and I think it's easier to shoot with the HD-100 due to it's being a better low light performer... but it is long. The HVX is fat though, so it's 6 of one and half dozen of the other really.

As far as greenscreen, it's probably a toss up. The HVX is noisier so that mucks up keying a little bit. The HD-100 has more resolution which translates to more edge detail (good) but you also do get some edge jaggies due to HDV recording. Those can be smoothed in post if you know what you're doing and you can pull a good key, but it's a little extra work. The HVX is smooth on the edges, but noisier shadows might mean more work.

The best keying would probably be an HD-100 via component to Cineform capture at 4:2:2 - but that adds about $3k and it's PC only.

Good keying depends a lot on the person / software doing the keying. I've seen F950 plates at 4:4:4 that people can't pull a very good key from because keying isn't really point and click even with Keylight or Primatte - which are very good keyers.

If you can test both cameras that's your best option.

Thanks for the prompt reply!

In your case I'd probably lean toward the HVX unless the HD-100 has gotten easier to edit in FCP recently.
Not yet, but an update is supposed to be in the pipeline -- imminent, even -- that lets FCP support 24p, so that's not a huge issue.

As far as greenscreen, it's probably a toss up. The HVX is noisier so that mucks up keying a little bit.
I'm surprised to hear that, actually. I would have guessed the HVX was much better for green screen work due to the DVCPRO codec (and that maybe even the lower pixel density on the 1/3" chip would translate to less noise).

The best keying would probably be an HD-100 via component to Cineform capture at 4:2:2 - but that adds about $3k and it's PC only.
That's the solution I'm looking for ('cept I'd want to stick with FCP once the update hits), but I would need a component card for a MacBook Pro's ExpressCard slot, which I don't think exist yet.

Thanks again for your advice. The cameras were neck and neck, but the HD100 (or 110, or 200 if I can wait that long) may be inching ahead. :)