Hi,
I have a Sony HC3 which has been wonderful so far. Our first child was just born and we wanted to capture the moments. When I output directly from the HC3 to my plasma or front projection system via component the video image looks stunning and reminds be of the HD material we see on HD TV.

The problem is that once I capture the video in HD via vegas and save it as a new format, playback on the same displays is terrible. (I have PCs connected to each display device so I can use any codec whose rendered files can be played by a PC.

The steps I followed were:
1) capture into vegas movie studio 6 platinum via firewire and save as an mt2 file (with project properties set to 1080i-60)
2) add mt2 file to timeline
3) "Render As" to the final file format (I have tried WMV, MainConcept Mpeg 2, and AVI). I have tried rendering as 1080p, 1080i, and 720p.

The resulting video is very soft, colors have lost heir punch, HD details are lost, and it is almost like the wonderful job of image stabalization done by the HC3 has been reversed. Any motion in the video image makes the image almost unwatchable.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Are you playing the final output through your computer? Might be a grahpic card problem. Try print it back to HDV tape and view it then, thats what I normally do and am very pleased with the results. By the way congradulations!! Not only having a baby but caputring the moments on HD!!!!

I'll buy some new tapes and give it a try. Thank you, btw, for your well wishes.

I found one solution, but I don't like it.
I downloaded a copy of ulead 10 PLUS. I captured an HD video clip directly from the cam, and rendered it to 720p and 1080i WMV 9 files. I am extremely pleased with the result as I could not distnguish the wmv from the direct cam playback (even on a 110" screen!)

I am hoping that there is simply a step i am missing in the vegas workflow. Any help is appreciated.

All I can assume is you've got something set wrong in your render settings, or are using a wrong bitrate.
If you are rendering to a .m2t file using the HDV template, and your footage is noticably different from the original you definitely have something misplaced. If you are rendering to an HDCAM avi, same story. If you're looking to render to SD, then you should only need to set to "Best" on output, and nothing more.

from the direct cam playback (even on a 110" screen!)

what do you mean 110" screen?

I have a high definition front projection system. The screen is 110" (diagonal).

Hi Douglas,the captured .mt2 files are fine. Its the conversion files that are the problem (ie, rendering the captured .mt2 files to AVI or WMV)

Chris, how do you output the AVI or WMV to the projector? Is it using DVI or S-video or component cable?

RGB (VGA). Component video could also be used.

so, the problem may be just that.
Different connector is taking different kind of signal.

eg:
*composite is always SD signal, eg 720x576
*VGA may have resolution dependency eg: 640x480
*component is almost always SD signal (720x576), unless it is written "HD component".

And if you output an HD material via SD path, it is always down-rezed. So the quality is SD, not HD.

to ensure you are outputting HD res & HD signal, use HDMI or HD-SDI, or Component HD.

Hi, RGB is basically considered on the same level as component, sometimes a little better (so I usually choose VGA over component if I have a choice). There is no resolution dependancy for VGA.

(officially VGA means 640x480, but the same HW interface for VGA [ ie, RGB] is compatible with higher resolutions including HD resolutions)

hi Chris,

VGA signal resolution is dependent of VGA card & VGA circuitry in the projector.

some projector is able up to 'VGA' res (640x480)
some is able up to XGA (800x600)
others able up to SXGA or WXGA or WSXGA, 720P HD, 1080HD, etc...

it is also dependent of your VGA card wether it outputs 640x480 signal or 1920x1080 signal. Can you check your VGA card settings?

Component, can be RGB or YUV. Apart from that, they can also be HD or SD. Check to make sure if your component signal is indeed outputting HD component signal, not SD signal.

Component cable from HDV cameras is most likely HD component, yet you can set them also as SD component, for displaying in SD televisions. Eg. in Z1, if you enable downconversion in its menu, the component output is becomes SD component, not operating as HD component mode anymore.

computer resolution and projector are HD :) I'm a techie :). There is no down convert to SD. It is clearly a compression issue rather than a display scaling issue

Okay. Haven't said anything cause I don't know Vegas that well. I have Vegas movie Studio + DVD Platinum, which captures in native HDV .m2t format.

I also have Premiere Pro 2.0 which I use exclusively for my HDV native editing. I was having same problem rendering the file .m2t file out. It was clearly a compression problem. I located a quality slider in the video output encoder, and was able to up the output to a max of 5, which gave me essentially the same quality as the original. I'm guessing you have to find that in Vegas.... max it out where ever it is located.

Chris Palestro,

oh ok, i thought the problem was in the computer to projector signal path...

in vegas project options you can set "rendering quality" to best or draft. Pls try that out.

also, can u try render to quicktime sorenson HD or other HD quicktime codec? Is it still bad?

if quicktime is not bad, then the problem may lie in your VGA card driver, the overlay driver dont playback the HD res, instead it plays in a draft / lowres overlay? If this is so, try newer/other driver version. Or try playing them in another computer with different VGA?

What is the correct workflow for Sony HC-1 1080/60i video to DVD? I have used the Cineform HDlink to capture the files. They captured files properties appears as 1440x1080i in Vegas 6. I edit, they look wonderful on the computer LCD monitor. Then I render as main concept mpeg2, import to DVD architect and make DVD. The resultant DVD is not very sharp and seems to have more interlaced artifacts then the DVD's I edited and burned from my old SD camcorder. Also it seems to loose color saturation and contrast from what it appeared on the original tape played directly, or the way the mp2t file looked on the computer monitor while editing. I've tried playing with the upper/lower field, but no help. HDV is upper field 1st, vs DV is lower field 1st. I am playing my DVD's thru a progressive DVD player hooked up via component video.

The Cineform FAQ recomends making an intermediate AVI file. I tried that , and the resultant DVD looked sharp, had good color, black level, etc., but had much worse interlaced artifacts/effects. Maybe thats the wrong term, but shooting from the 10th floor at a road with a car coming towards me, it looks like he is driving under strips of a mirror or a desert water mirage. Vertical fence railing look like each side has saw blade teeth in it. I'll try to add some stills.,

Could some one in the know please walk me thru the steps, or what I have to check at each point? Or direct me to a link that gives the info? Thanks - PK

Paul:

You know DVD encoding implies a necessary downconversion to SD, right? Might that be the issue?

Paul:

You know DVD encoding implies a necessary downconversion to SD, right? Might that be the issue?

Jarrod - yes I know that, and I don't expect it to look as good as the hdv tape. From what I've heard everyone say, HDV downconverted to DVD looks better then regular SD DV. My experience is it looks worse! Do I have to make it 24p before going out to DVD? Or can I leave it at 60i? My experience with converting DV to 24p is that it looses sharpness, and movement becomes rather jerky, but the stairstepping, and interlaced flicker go away. With my HDV attempts, it is the stairstepping, flickering, wavy, blurry look to things that I don't like. I attatched photo's. The AVI one is from following Cineform's recommendation to make an intermediate CF avi from the timeline and then use that as the source for DVD. The CF photo is without using the AVi intermediate. You can see that the stairstepping or "saw blade" edje look to everything is not as bad as in the AVI, but you can also see that there is more motion blur to it - but even in shots without motion, it still looks less sharp, less contrasty, less color saturation then the AVi intermediate. These problems make the DVD look inferior to DVD's from SD DV in terms of artifacts and contrast. They still look better the SD in terms of the depth of the color pallet.

Maybe I have something goofed up in my workflow.

In the Uppper left corner of the Vegas editing screen, on the toolbar, If I go up to File-Properties, I get the following. Template: HDV 1080-60i (1440x1080, 29.970 fps) Width: 1,440 Field Order: Upper field first Height: 1080 Pixel Aspect: 1.3333 (HDV 1080) Frame Rate: 29.970 (NTSC) Full Resolution Rendering: Best Motion blurr type: Gaussian Deinterlace: none

If I click on a clip in the timeline and go to Properties I get in the Video Event Tab: Mandalay2006CFHDCap-001-001, Maintain Aspect Ratio, Smart Resample is checked, Playback rate 1.000, Undersample Rate 1.000, and 29.970 fps. On the Media Tab: Timecode=Use time code in file, Attributes:1440x1080x24, 00:01:50;20, Format:CineForm HD Codec V2.5, Frame Rate: This is greyed out but it is -29.970 (NTSC), Field Order: Upper field first, Pixel Aspect: 1.3333 (HDV 1080), Alpha Channel: none

When Rendering your outputing, What settings do you use?

Sorry that is so long, but if anyone can see anything wrong or different with those settings, please let me know. Thank You very much for your help. Sincerely - PK

I have the same problem too. But by the pictures you posted it looks far worst than mines. This is my properties after I have printed back to HDV tape. I reload the m2t edited file on the time line.

Field order: Non progressive
Deinterlance method: Blend Fields
Motion blur: Guassain
Res quality: GOOD

Everything else is set to what it is defaulted when I printed to back to HDV tape. I tried both Good and Best and I yeild the same results on DVD. The final product looks awsome just that it still have some of the jaggy, wavy, artifacts but its not as bad as the clips you posted.

I don't know if this will help, but it seemed to work for me some time back. What happens when you try 1st or 2nd in the field order selection ?? The DVD is being made from an interlaced file, into an interlaced DVD, so the problem might be in the order the fields are set up. Try the 1st field order selection.

By the way congradulations!! Not only having a baby but caputring the moments on HD!!!!

I would ad congradulations on not only the new child, capturing it on HD, but not passing out during filming!

I have the same problem too. But by the pictures you posted it looks far worst than mines. This is my properties after I have printed back to HDV tape. I reload the m2t edited file on the time line.

Field order: Non progressive
Deinterlance method: Blend Fields
Motion blur: Guassain
Res quality: GOOD

Everything else is set to what it is defaulted when I printed to back to HDV tape. I tried both Good and Best and I yeild the same results on DVD. The final product looks awsome just that it still have some of the jaggy, wavy, artifacts but its not as bad as the clips you posted.


Question - By "non progressive" - are you using Upper field or Lower Field first?

If I click on a cineform clip in the Vegas project media bin, I get the following:
General
Name: Mandalay2006CFHDCap-001.avi
Folder: I:\My Video\Mandalay Feb2006\HC-1
Type: Video for Windows
Size: 11.07 MB (11,336,704 bytes)
Created: Monday, May 22, 2006, 3:02:32 PM
Modified: Monday, May 22, 2006, 3:02:34 PM
Accessed: Wednesday, June 14, 2006, 5:09:44 PM
Attributes: Archive

Streams
Video: 00:00:00.868, 29.970 fps, 1440x1080x25, CineForm HD Codec V2.5
Audio: 00:00:00.696, 48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, Uncompressed


Question: What is the x25 in 1440x1080x25?
Cineform HD Codec V2.5 - Is this the current version?

Thanks for your help. And I guess I missed the post, but my Congrats' to the new Father as well!!!

For projects going to dvd i use "non-progressive" as the field order.

I've been getting very decent, very cinema-like quality going from HDV to DVD.

I use the standard HDV project template, except changing rendering quality to "best" and deinterlace method to "interpolate".

If you are rendering to progressive formats, set the project property to progressive. If rendering to an interlaced format, set the project property to interlace (use the default for the template).

I use the MainConcept MPEG2 DVD Architect WS template as-is. The only setting I would consider touching there is the bitrate, but 90% of the time I leave it alone.

I do change the color curves on all the footage, specifically crushing blacks a little. I do this for the look, but apparently this avoids multiple (invisible) shades of black and dark grey, which makes things easier for the encoder.

I've prepared several DVDs this way for very large format projections (6 meters across) and many people assume they're watching HD.

For projects going to dvd i use "non-progressive" as the field order.

Where do you see a "non progressive" choice? All I see are: 1. Progressive 2. Upper field first 3. Lower field first.

Both choice 2 and 3 are the interlaced options, but you have to choose one or the other. Unless you are referring to some other place to select options that I am unaware of. Thanks Fred - PK

I've been getting very decent, very cinema-like quality going from HDV to DVD.

I use the standard HDV project template, except changing rendering quality to "best" and deinterlace method to "interpolate".

If you are rendering to progressive formats, set the project property to progressive. If rendering to an interlaced format, set the project property to interlace (use the default for the template).

I use the MainConcept MPEG2 DVD Architect WS template as-is. The only setting I would consider touching there is the bitrate, but 90% of the time I leave it alone.

I do change the color curves on all the footage, specifically crushing blacks a little. I do this for the look, but apparently this avoids multiple (invisible) shades of black and dark grey, which makes things easier for the encoder.

I've prepared several DVDs this way for very large format projections (6 meters across) and many people assume they're watching HD.


That must really be cool to see you work on a screen that size. I see you use interpolate for your de-interlace method. I think mine is set up at default, which I believe is Gaussian. I assume you've tried them all and found "interpolate" to be the best?

Thanks for the info - PK

Where do you see a "non progressive" choice? All I see are: 1. Progressive 2. Upper field first 3. Lower field first.

Both choice 2 and 3 are the interlaced options, but you have to choose one or the other. Unless you are referring to some other place to select options that I am unaware of. Thanks Fred - PK

I'm guessing that was a typo- and selection being suggested was "none: progressive".

I tried the different project settings as suggested here, but I am probably rendering different than the others. I'm using Vegas Movie Studio and I am editing and rendering from a native .m2t file, but it sounds like every one esle is working from a Cineform intermediate file. Using the native HDV file, I am not getting any significant difference when I render or output the movie to a DVD compatible mpg file using any of the project settings. It is obviously DV lower resolution, as you would expect in a down resolution, but I don't see it as any lower quality than rendering from a DV project.

I've also rendered from native HDV to DV, and then placed that into DVD Architect for transcoding and burning.

I'm curious if everyone is rendering to something else, then dropping it into DVD Architect to do the conversion and if that transcoding is where things are going haywire. Thoughts ??

I'm guessing that was a typo- and selection being suggested was "none: progressive".

I tried the different project settings as suggested here, but I am probably rendering different than the others. I'm using Vegas Movie Studio and I am editing and rendering from a native .m2t file, but it sounds like every one esle is working from a Cineform intermediate file. Using the native HDV file, I am not getting any significant difference when I render or output the movie to a DVD compatible mpg file using any of the project settings. It is obviously DV lower resolution, as you would expect in a down resolution, but I don't see it as any lower quality than rendering from a DV project.

I've also rendered from native HDV to DV, and then placed that into DVD Architect for transcoding and burning.

I'm curious if everyone is rendering to something else, then dropping it into DVD Architect to do the conversion and if that transcoding is where things are going haywire. Thoughts ??

Thanks chris. I'm curious, you use movie studio, but you have DVD architect? Why do you use studio and not Vegas 6? Yes I have been using the cineform codec. I also tried capturing hdv dirctly into vegas6 and that seemed to work the same, same quality, etc. I don't believe though, that even that is editing the M2t, as I think the Vegas hdv capture uses a stripped down version of the cineform codec. I would suspect movie studio does as well, I'm not sure.
Anyways, late last night I made another go of it and I ended up with beautiful output. In Vegas you have to render the mpeg2-DVD file, and then output that dvd architect. I think I had the render as set to "Main Concept HDV". Last night - in Vegas I set it up to render as"DVD Architect widescreen DVD" and it worked great. Pretty stupid on my part to have missed that! I also have the Adobe Video Collection (the old one with PPro 1.5.1). I had been experimenting with that and Vegas and getting equally bad results. Not sure what my problem is with the Adobe, but I'm happy that now at least I can get a great DVD from my HDV tapes with Vegas.

Yes I made a mistake, I use NONE as the field order. I have tried both good and best as the render quality and get the same results. Looks good but I still see these wavy jaggy artifacts especailly during movements..its very faint though the average joe won't be able to tell. You know back in the days when I had my FX1 with Vegas 4 I downconverted using the camera and I had great results from it...no wavy jaggy nonsense. I am gonna try to swap out my CF files to the "downconverted from cam" DV footage instead and see how it turns out.

Thanks Fred for clearifying. That is very interresting that you had less artifacting by downconverting in your FX-1 before editing. I found that when I was redering output from Vegas, I had the MainConcept HDV coder selected. Last night I used the "DVD Architect widescreen" template and the results were excellent. I still have some of the wavy artifacts, but not any worse then with regular DV, and the sharpness, color gaument, shadow-highlights, are all much better then in a DVD from SD DV. I have Adobe PPro as well, and my results had been equally poor in both Vegas and PPro. I double checked, and I don't see the same/similar error in my Adobe setup, so I'll have to investigate that further. At least I'm up n running with Vegas and HDV :)

Thanks chris. I'm curious, you use movie studio, but you have DVD architect? Why do you use studio and not Vegas 6? Yes I have been using the cineform codec. I also tried capturing hdv dirctly into vegas6 and that seemed to work the same, same quality, etc. I don't believe though, that even that is editing the M2t, as I think the Vegas hdv capture uses a stripped down version of the cineform codec. I would suspect movie studio does as well, I'm not sure.



I'll make sure I have mine set on wide screen too.

Actually, with respect to Vegas Movies Studio, I bought the Platinum version which allow native hdv editing, and had DVD Architect and the stripped down Acid sound program. I have always been a Premiere user, but with all the Vegas hype, I wanted to get a feel for it. I don't believe the Cineform HD codec is used at all when you edit natively in Vegas, whether with this Movie Studio product, or the standard Vegas. My understanding is that you have to use Cineform stand alone HD Connect to actually have access to the the Cineform process. You would know for sure though, if you your HD captured files are .avi files, then you are using one of the intermediate codecs from Cineform.

Thanks Fred for clearifying. That is very interresting that you had less artifacting by downconverting in your FX-1 before editing. :)

I had zero artifacts when downconverted from the camera when I had Vegas 4.
The main thing at this point is I am outputing it to HDV tape then later to Blu Ray. Those artifacts and wavy lines are probaby happening in the step when we convert the m2t to a CF codec. We're probably doing something wrong and no one had corrected us so far.

I had zero artifacts when downconverted from the camera when I had Vegas 4.
The main thing at this point is I am outputing it to HDV tape then later to Blu Ray. Those artifacts and wavy lines are probaby happening in the step when we convert the m2t to a CF codec. We're probably doing something wrong and no one had corrected us so far.

Chris that is interesting. Do you find the native hdv editing is hard/poor performing vs DV or cineform?

Fred, I am just trying to output to DVD, but if you are getting those effects when outputing to HDV tape - that is really obnoxious. If we are ALL dooing something wrong, then I think cineform needs to come out with a "GUIDE" with step by step instructions and cautions on the pitfalls/errors that are common. I too am looking foreward to being able to output to BlueRay - hopefully soon!

Fred, I am just trying to output to DVD, but if you are getting those effects when outputing to HDV tape - that is really obnoxious.


No, I am getting flawless resuts going back to HDV tape..very identical with the original footage with all the bells and whistles. Its going to DVD is where the problem is.

No, I am getting flawless resuts going back to HDV tape..very identical with the original footage with all the bells and whistles. Its going to DVD is where the problem is.

Glad to hear that Fred. All we need are those Blue Ray burners! I think cause were comeing from the interlaced versus the 24p film of the commercial DVD's, you have to expect some of these artifacts. I took some 60i sd DV footage and converted it to 24p. The result was a DVD that was very clean and few artifacts, but the motion was too jerky/strobscopic.

Chris that is interesting. Do you find the native hdv editing is hard/poor performing vs DV or cineform?



First of all, I have a fairly generic system I cobbled together from sales at Frys. The system is a 3800+ AMD Dual Core, 2 Gigs of memory, and a fairly generic PCI Express Video Card with 256 mgs of memory. Despite the generic nature of the system I put together, when I edit in Premeire 2.0, with HDV native, I don't find I am having any significant problems.

I am told by Doug Spotted Eagle, and other experts on the board that using Cineform will give you better editing capability and better color handling. I think I have seen occasional evidence where the color had a bit of a temporary tinge at the wrong place, but I have been generally well satisfied with the results.

A Cineform file would be 5 times the size for same footage, so if you go that route, you have to plan for a lot more disk space. Add the fact that Cineform's Aspect for Premiere runs about $500.00, or $200.00 for HD Connect for Vegas, and I just haven't gotten into it.

So far, except for a couple of tests with Vegas in HDV native editing, I have not really tested Vegas that way. I never have been quite confortable with the Vegas user interface, so I just haven't pushed it there.

Chris, your system and mine are almost identical. That's amazing that you don't seem to need the Cineform. Is the native hdv performance about the same in PPro2 vs Vegas? I agree that Ppro is a more intuative interface, and the help file is far superior. DSE's DVD tutitorials for Vegas are nice, but I'd like to have the explanation right there in print where I can follow it. Going to DVD Vegas seems to allow me to set the bit rate higher then Ppro 1.5 and at least for now, it is givng me good HDV to DVD. I still can't seem to get very good results with Ppro=way too much artifacting. remeber I am using the CF intermediate with both. Ppro 1.5 does not support native hdv editng. One thing I wish Ppro would do, is allow full screen preview on monitor #2. You have to go thru the firewire-camcorder-monitor, at least in ppro 1.5. Is that the same in 2.0? Vegas makes it easy to do that.
We'll its late, goodnight - PK

Paul, Chris, and Fred:

A few points about the Cineform Codec in Vegas/Vegas Movie Studio Platinum:

1. A Cineform Codec is included with Vegas 6 (and VMS Platimum 6). You don't need to buy Connect HD. (The advantage in using Connect HD is you can capture directly to Cineform in one step).

2. If you are capturing and editing the native HDV, then the CineForm codec is not involved.

3. To use the Cineform Codec provided with Vegas, you first capture the HDV, then in a separate step render a Cineform intermediate file, and edit that.

4. If the edited footage is flawless when you render HDV back to m2t/print to tape, and you only see problems when rendering down to SD DVD, then I don't think the problem can be with your Cineform settings.

5. Using the Vegas Cineform codec, I find they are generally about 3 times the size of the original m2t (not 5).

I think I have seen occasional evidence where the color had a bit of a temporary tinge at the wrong place, but I have been generally well satisfied with the results.

This is true with older versions of the CineForm codec, but is not at issue any longer


A Cineform file would be 5 times the size for same footage, so if you go that route, you have to plan for a lot more disk space. Add the fact that Cineform's Aspect for Premiere runs about $500.00, or $200.00 for HD Connect for Vegas, and I just haven't gotten into it.

CineForm CODEC comes with Vegas 6. You don't need the Connect HD, although there are some additional benefits if you own it. Additionally, file sizes grow from approx 13GBph to 40GBph, not 5 times.

So far, except for a couple of tests with Vegas in HDV native editing, I have not really tested Vegas that way. I never have been quite confortable with the Vegas user interface, so I just haven't pushed it there.

[b]No offense meant, but I think you need to do a project in HDV with Vegas (or premiere), not just tests, in order to be offering advice or commentary, because you've got a number of points "not quite right."

[b]No offense meant, but I think you need to do a project in HDV with Vegas (or premiere), not just tests, in order to be offering advice or commentary, because you've got a number of points "not quite right."

DSE:

1. If you look at my post, and follow the thread, you will discern that I am responding to another post asking about editing native HDV and I was referring to the Native HDV editing and some color problems associated with it as reported by you and others. I was not criticizing Cineforms product. I was merely reporting that in editing in HDV native, I had noticed and occasional color problem- exactly what you and others have indicated, and I was only confirming that.

2. I am confused about Cinefrom as an available codec in Vegas 6. Are you saying I should have it with VMS Platinum too, as reported by Mark Bryant above ?

3. As far as doing projects in HDV, I clearly stated that I had only done tests in Vegas Movie Studio. That doesn't mean I haven't done projects using native HDV editing in Premiere Pro.

4. File size: I will stand corrected on the multiplier. It has been some time since I used the trial version, but the point is that it does use significantly more space and I was pointing out that that should be planned for. Again, I am not slamming the product. I was only pointing out what needed to be done.

Movie Studio also has the CineForm codec installed with the product.
You keep saying "significantly more space." It's approx 3 times the space.
It's HD. Understand that even at 3 times the space, it's insignificant compared to other compression schemes. It's HD. It's big. It's 4 times the resolution for less than 4 times the file size. Do the math. This is where it gets frustrating. You want 4 times the pixels in the same amount of space.
I realize I'm being combative, but just stop for a second and think about what's happening in this discussion. It's been sidetracked, and sidetracked in part because some folks aren't understanding that:
1. HDV is 4 times the pixels of DV.
2. HDV is same raw file size as HDV, but that file format was never intended to be edited. the mere words "Native HDV editing" should be banned from our vocabulary, because it's marketing hype. MPEG is a lousy editing format at small bitrates. HDV *barely* gets into the acceptable bitrate for editing. This is why CineForm, Canopus NX, Apple AIC, and several other DI's exist. Because it's the smart way to work. But some folks want the size of HDV to match the size and experience of editing DV. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. It's a LOT more information. Ain't no free lunch.
And on a slower computer, native HDV isn't going to happen anyway. Not in Premiere, Vegas, Canopus, Apple, etc, etc.
Comparing Premiere Pro 2 to VMS is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? You're comparing a 79.99 software to a 499.00 software.

Movie Studio also has the CineForm codec installed with the product.
You keep saying "significantly more space." It's approx 3 times the space.
It's HD. Understand that even at 3 times the space, it's insignificant compared to other compression schemes. It's HD. It's big. It's 4 times the resolution for less than 4 times the file size. Do the math. This is where it gets frustrating. You want 4 times the pixels in the same amount of space.
I realize I'm being combative, but just stop for a second and think about what's happening in this discussion. It's been sidetracked, and sidetracked in part because some folks aren't understanding that:
1. HDV is 4 times the pixels of DV.
2. HDV is same raw file size as HDV, but that file format was never intended to be edited. the mere words "Native HDV editing" should be banned from our vocabulary, because it's marketing hype. MPEG is a lousy editing format at small bitrates. HDV *barely* gets into the acceptable bitrate for editing. This is why CineForm, Canopus NX, Apple AIC, and several other DI's exist. Because it's the smart way to work. But some folks want the size of HDV to match the size and experience of editing DV. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. It's a LOT more information. Ain't no free lunch.
And on a slower computer, native HDV isn't going to happen anyway. Not in Premiere, Vegas, Canopus, Apple, etc, etc.
Comparing Premiere Pro 2 to VMS is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? You're comparing a 79.99 software to a 499.00 software.

This thread started out as a consumer level question about the HC1 and how to get best video to DVD. In the process, others started discussing HDV editing solutions. To us consumer level users, "editing" at a native level may produce the best bang for the buck, and my responses in this thread were based on that. It was an open discussion about various avenues, costs, etc. The size of disc storage needed for that purpose is a valid concern to the hobbiest. Theres a big difference in the cost of a 500 gig drive, and a 160. If its coming out of your salary at Home Depot, it makes a difference.

If you are in the actual business of video production for a living, then you do what you have to to deliver a top product. But this thread was clearly a hobbiest level discussion. Nobody has said that it is better to edit in HDV native. I do edit that way, and I'll be darn, I actually have access to transitions, color correction, slow motion processing, and all the other things associated with editing when I edit HDV native. And with my generic set up, I do so relatively trouble free, at least to the level I need it, and that is what I reported.

I believe DVInfo includes consumer oriented users, and is not limited to professional level users. Am I wrong about that ?

Chris, your system and mine are almost identical. That's amazing that you don't seem to need the Cineform. Is the native hdv performance about the same in PPro2 vs Vegas? I agree that Ppro is a more intuative interface, and the help file is far superior. DSE's DVD tutitorials for Vegas are nice, but I'd like to have the explanation right there in print where I can follow it. Going to DVD Vegas seems to allow me to set the bit rate higher then Ppro 1.5 and at least for now, it is givng me good HDV to DVD. I still can't seem to get very good results with Ppro=way too much artifacting. remeber I am using the CF intermediate with both. Ppro 1.5 does not support native hdv editng. One thing I wish Ppro would do, is allow full screen preview on monitor #2. You have to go thru the firewire-camcorder-monitor, at least in ppro 1.5. Is that the same in 2.0? Vegas makes it easy to do that.
We'll its late, goodnight - PK

Paul:

I actually upgraded 1.51 to 2.0 to get the capability. I still have 1.51 on the system to if I want to use Cineform Codec to capture with. As far as being more intuitive, I'm sure others will tell you Vegas is more intuitive. For me, I have used the Premiere interfaces for about 5 years, so I'm used to their look and feel.

......
1. HDV is 4 times the pixels of DV.
2. HDV is same raw file size as HDV, but that file format was never intended to be edited. the mere words "Native HDV editing" should be banned from our vocabulary, because it's marketing hype. MPEG is a lousy editing format at small bitrates. HDV *barely* gets into the acceptable bitrate for editing. This is why CineForm, Canopus NX, Apple AIC, and several other DI's exist. Because it's the smart way to work. But some folks want the size of HDV to match the size and experience of editing DV. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. It's a LOT more information. Ain't no free lunch.
And on a slower computer, native HDV isn't going to happen anyway. Not in Premiere, Vegas, Canopus, Apple, etc, etc.

I'd be very happy if someone could explain in short:
What are the main differences between editing DV and HDV with the the help of CineForm in Vegas?

on a relatively fast 'puter (say...3.6GHz or faster) there is virtually no difference at all. CineForm is incredibly optimized. If you do a lot of editing, it's foolishness to not use it, IMO.

on a relatively fast 'puter (say...3.6GHz or faster) there is virtually no difference at all. CineForm is incredibly optimized. If you do a lot of editing, it's foolishness to not use it, IMO.

even if foolish, I take from your answer that one COULD - not - use Cineform.
Do I understand right that this would mean editing in mpeg4, which you say: MPEG is a lousy editing format at small bitrates Why is it lousy to edit, what are the major pitfalls, are there any advantages as well?

and talking 'puter...Vegas is speedier on double cores, yes?

Not sure how MPEG 4 entered the picture here, as HDV is MPEG 2, not 4. MPEG 4 is a horrible editing format, worse than MPEG2.
You could use any number of codecs or formats in Vegas. You can use native m2t, you can convert to DV, uncompressed HD, several HD intermediary formats, yadayadayada. On the HDI front, CineForm simply has done it well.

Advantages of editing MPEG?
I can't think of any. GOP was never intended for anything but display and archive. Fast built systems based around very high bitrate MPEG, and Sony Beta SX is built around it, but again...it's a delivery/archival format. Takes a lot of CPU horsepower just to decode it. Eventually, we'll see more NLE's take advantage of GPU, but that's limited, currently.


Yes, Vegas loves dual cores.

Thank you very much for your answers.

Sorry for the mpeg4, but it prooves what the simple style of my questions also may show, that I do not understand much of formats, codecs etc.

I know how to download my SD video from my cam, edit it in Vegas, convert it to mpeg2 resp. ac3, author it with DVA and write it to DVD - and wonder how much of an adventure it would be if I got myself a HC3 or HC1, if I'd encounter more problems than I'd want to put up with, if future consumer HD cams will use other formats again, and if those will be easier or more difficult to edit.
I believe that there are more people out there who are in a similar position with similar questions, so I dare asking.

I am happy to know now that with Vegas 6 all required to edit HC1/HC3 footage seems to be a fast computer.

But your answers also raise more questions, which are very naive, and therefore might not deserve your, THE DSE's attention:

--What are m2t and uncompressed HD formats? Are they used by professional HD cameras only and therefore are of no concern to HC1/HC3 users?
--Do HC1/HC3 record in mpeg2, but as mpeg is difficult to edit there are various easier to edit 'HD intermediate formats', one of them being the CineForm?
--What is GOP?

I'd totally understand if you don't answer, I'd just take it that I should study up first..

GOP = Group Of Pictures.

A mpeg-2 GOP consists of one complete frame and then a sequence of difference frames. So to decode the last frame in a GOP all frames have to be read from the initial frame at the start. Some mpeg-2 encoding systems use very short GOPs and are fast to decode, HDV uses a 15 frame GOP so is hard to decode but easy to encode but it's very efficient i.e. lots of picture data can be squeezed into a small bandwidth. This is fine for acquisition but lousy for editing.

Also this encoding scheme has high generational loss and it's visually very bad with errors having block boundaries. The CF codec uses wavelets. This scheme is not as effiicent but has less loss and any loss is way less visible. Also it's easier to decode making for easier editing.

All these are compression systems, some types of compression are bad, most good ones are very good, they're our friends, without them we'd be forced to use mosterous amounts of disk space, cameras would be unafforable etc.
Compression takes many forms, spatial, temporal and color space.

Yes do some reading. To work with uncompressed HD you're looking at TBytes of data and staggering data rates.

HDV via the CF codec is pretty smooth to edit in Vegas. You can also capture HDV as m2t in Vegas and use DV proxies to edit.