Hey guys I work with the HVX on the job. I was looking for a camera for vacation and fun. I want the look of 24fps but the average consumer camera does not offer this accept the sony line.

I wanted to know the difference if any between the A1 & HC3 in cine mode.

I have searched but not found a solid answer.

Thanks!

The HC1 really doesn't have the cineframe mode at all. It has something similar but it is not nearly as good as the A1.

The A1U allows you to choose between Cineframe30 and Cineframe24, while the HC1 and HC3 only offer the Cinema Effect which is basically Cineframe24.

The A1U allows you to adjust several manual settings (exposure, shutter speed, spot meter, etc) with the Cineframe mode while the HC1 and HC3 allow virtually no manual adjustment when using the Cinema Effect (everything becomes controlled by the camera).

I personally don't think that the Cinema Effect looks that bad (when the 24fps footage is extracted with Cineform HDLink) when the target is SD and there isn't a lot of movement. The cadence is not true 24fps (the 30fps is fine) but if you like the look and it fits the effect you're going for then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, does it? :-)

That said, if you want the 24fps look, you can deinterlace in post with many programs (DVFilm Maker, AVISynth/VirtualDub) with very nice results (better than the Cinema Effect). However, I'm sure that you are aware that no interlaced to progressive image will ever be as good as a true progressive image.

Great info guys! Looks like the HC3 will fit my needs as long as the cineframe is a cineframe24 effect, really good to know.

Its all about size for me when on vacation with the new baby! Anything else at home I will use the HVX.

Thanks a bunch.

If you really want the 24p effect, you can also buy a PAL camera... it will achieve perfect 24p conversion with no stutter with the right software (cineform...)
.

its the best alternative to real 24p.

The HC-3 does not offer a cine effect in manual mode or when other features are enabled. I guess it is better to deinterlace and color correct in Post.
Another thing is a strong vertical smear at spotlights on the HC-3.

The HC1's "cinema" effect is worthless. The motion jutter that it produces is way over exagerrated and is too random, (not the temporal smoothness you'd expect).

The best advice is to shoot the highest data-rate/rez the camera provides, which is 1080i for the HC1, and convert to 24p in post.

While the HC1 and HC3 go "auto" while using the Cinema Effect, be realistic about what it is... an Effect. As I said before, "if you like the look and it fits the effect you're going for then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, does it"?

Effects are subjective. There is no chart or test to determine if some look is "worthless". I'm not the only one who feels that way. As for the Cineframe24 look:

See Jon Fordham's take on CF24 (FX1):
http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/fordham8.php

See this article:
http://www.infocomm.org/index.cfm?objectID=E89EDE90-1AAE-4CF0-BA4904244F954FE6

See the thread "Sony HC1 Cineframe Rocks":
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56590

Look here for more info:
http://www.adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.html
http://www.cineform.com/products/SonyHDVSupport/CineFrame.htm

I agree, it's a matter of personal taste -so 'worthless' is just my opinion and perhaps too strong of one. I just punched that in and shot some stuff with the effect and didn't like it. I guess it looked more "faked" than real and I can't get past that.

I totally get the limitations of these cameras in the realm of 24fps.
Like I said before I work with the HVX so really anything important is covered.

I just wanted something small for the beach and pool that at least had a fake 24fps look to it.

It just is a look I prefer, in no way am I seeking perfection from the HC3.

Any Mac based programs that work like cineform?

Thanks for all the great input guys!

I guess for my personal eye, I'm not a big fan of the Cinema-Effect either.
When I first heard about this "effect" I tried it out and found that I preffered the footage I shot with manual adjustments, much more than the footage taken with the Cinema-Effect.

Also, do you have to use a special program to capture the Cinema-Effect video? Because when I did it thru VMS Platinum, the m2t file still shows as 60i.

Maybe i'm capturing it wrong (or with the wrong software), perhaps my view on the cinema-effect would be different.

Otherwise, I would much rather create the 24p effect in post.

my 3 cents and a question worth :)

jg

Doesn't the HC3 have some sorta feature though that cranks it up to 120fps or something for a few seconds? I'm wishing the HC1 had that :)

---EDIT---

Just noticed someone mentioned that you need to extract the Cinema-effect footage via some form of Cineform HDlink or something. So maybe that's where I went wrong.

Well, I'll post my strong opinion and say that both Cinema modes on the A1U are worthless. You can't even do a simple pan without a major amount of jerkiness. What good is that?

Just shoot in normal mode and fix it in post.

>> Also, do you have to use a special program to capture the Cinema-Effect video? Because when I did it thru VMS Platinum, the m2t file still shows as 60i.

You MUST extract the pulldown (using something like Cineforms HDLink). Whenever I hear someone proclaiming that CF24/Cinema mode is "worthless" or "far too jerky" my immediate suspicion is that they may not have done this...or else they havent locked their shutter speed to 1/60.

This is how it looks in camera. Crappy.

Yes, in camera, as an "effect", and average Joe would do no more than burn a DVD as is. However, in all fairness, I'll fire up the workstation and do a pull down and reserve my opinion until then.

Well, I'm speaking from initial impressions and am not afraid to revise my opinion if needed, but I have a feeling it won't change. I've seen footage of other users and have not been impressed.

Other than that, however, I think the A1U is a great little camera. I'm thinking of buying another.

Did some test in post. Shot a tiger centipede crawling across the floor, then panned a landscape from top of our building. Yuck. Not sure about the A1, but there noticeably less details in the cinema effect. Your forced to put the HC1 into auto lock mode for this, so you have zero options. Best to do 24p in post from 1080i source with the HC1 (my opinion). My guess is that the A1 allows more settings, but uses the same internal method as the HC1.

Still, agree with Rob, it's a decent HDV cam.

I totally get the limitations of these cameras in the realm of 24fps.
Like I said before I work with the HVX so really anything important is covered.

I just wanted something small for the beach and pool that at least had a fake 24fps look to it.

It just is a look I prefer, in no way am I seeking perfection from the HC3.

Any Mac based programs that work like cineform?

Thanks for all the great input guys!


I think you will be happy with the camera since it will be small and will probably work quite well with the auto settings, allowing you to enjoy your vacation and be a tourist instead of a camera operator.

Sony lists CineFrame as a "film-type look imaging 24/30 (in HDV-2 1080i, 23.98 as interlaced fields with 2:3 pulldown within an overall 29.97 frame rate/59.94 field rate)".

So, inverse pulldown should work. Final Cut Pro will do this with Cinema Tools and a reverse telecine. Christopher Coppola uses this method to insert Z1U shots (that were missed in the field) and later color corrects them to match his VariCam shots for his show "The Biker Chef". In addition, you could use something like Lumiere HD (http://www.lumierehd.com/) --- sort of Cineform-like, I guess...

HDLink just provides an easy way to do this in one step for those who wish to use the Cineform codec on a PC.

Is Cinema-Effect the exact same thing as CineFrame minus the manual adjustments?

(just because the two keep getting used interchangably)

I don't have the funds to purchase correct software that will allow me to capture the video in the whole 'pulldown' thing, so I guess I'll never have a non-biased opinion on it.

I do have another question though, If I view my video captured in the Cinema-Effect from my camera hooked up to an HD-TV... with it properly show the footage? or is the ONLY way to properly view footage taken with Cinema-Effect to actually capture it first with the proper pulldown, the view it?

jg

Is Cinema-Effect the exact same thing as CineFrame minus the manual adjustments?

Yes, it is basically Cineframe24 on auto.


I don't have the funds to purchase correct software that will allow me to capture the video in the whole 'pulldown' thing, so I guess I'll never have a non-biased opinion on it.

I think that you can do inverse telecine in AVISynth and some other FREE tools.

I do have another question though, If I view my video captured in the Cinema-Effect from my camera hooked up to an HD-TV... with it properly show the footage? or is the ONLY way to properly view footage taken with Cinema-Effect to actually capture it first with the proper pulldown, the view it?

You'll really need to give it a try. It is really best if the target is SD because there is a loss of resolution (but the resulting resolution is still higher than a Canon SD camcorder in Frame Movie mode).

I am considering upgrading to HD video. Currently have a mixture of Sony DV cameras which I use for making sea kayaking videos.
My main concern is whether the compression needed for HD will produce serious motion artefacts. Sitting in a kayak going up and down with waves and action all around how will HD compression cope?
To see what kind of action I mean have a look at this video which is highly compressed.
http://www.vision.net.au/~jennings/pirates/pirates13.wmv
Any advice much appreciated
JJ

When we used CineFrame 24 on my flick 3 Sisters (www.904am.com/3sisters.php) Jon Fordham and I knew that rapid movement of both actors and camera would create distortion of the image. We were very careful and found it to work.

CineForm allows you to remove the pulldown, which gives you 24p. This is for PC-based NLEs only.

You could always shoot in 60i and use any number of 24p filters.

heath

Heath, what is the link to your film 3 sisters, the link above doesnt work.

I fixed it.

hwm