I almost wouldn't mind a series focused on the young Cadet Kirk, and his early adventures. Almost. Problem is, a series about a cadet would be dull. For a while, they were talking about Sulu's adventures as the Captain of the Excelsior.

Rob, I also found it funny wondering how they went from grey and dark toned uniforms to primary colors.

Unlike you I did grow up with TOS. Back with only 12 .. then 28 channels TV stations filled a lot of time with old television so even though I wasn't young enough to see Trek primetime, it was part of a lot of the TV I watched along with Outer Limits, Twilight Zone, Bonanza, The Wild Wild West, etc. So it was interesting at the time comparing the older shows including the black and white shows with the crap that was on prime time when I was growing up such as Airwolf, A-Team... Some really not so good stuff.

To me, watching Trek is almost like watching a theatrical production or listening to a radio serial. It is not modern style but much of it is still good. No one stands up in the audience and guffaws at the sword fighting in Macbeth. Kirk posturing is very stagey and I can accept that just like I can accept a guy in a lizard costume hurling a cardboard rock.

But like you I want any new Trek to go forward not backward.

There was one moment during The Next Generation when I was hoping they would take a gamble and turn their back on the past forever. That's when the Borg attacked the Earth. I kept hoping that the Picard would fail and the Earth would be destroyed. That would have been mind blowing for its time. There would have been no going back. The human race would have had to somehow persevere and rebuild elsewhere.

Wait a second. That's called BSG!

I've seen all the series, I watched TOS as reruns in the 70s and my favorite is DS9 hands down. Babylon 5 was a close second. Best writing, best ensemble cast.

Voyager was the beginning of the end. Just all around bad writing and rediculous plots with a tepid series finally. Good acting won't make up for a lousy script.

The plots on Enterprise, esepcially the season where the aliens sent a 'test' weapon against earth to see if it worked, were awful. I mean an advanced civilization tests it's weapons against it's intended victoms instead of picking some uninhabited planet, and gives away it's hand. Right, sure...insulted everyones intelligence. Showed the producers utter contempt for it's audience. The whole Tpol trip romance thing


As far as I'm concerned what destroyed the franchise was/is many of the fans who turned themwselves into some sort of high priests of the Star Trek universe. When I went to my fist and only convention at Vegas last year, fan after fan got up and complained about the post TNG series dystopian outlook. They literally wanted hippies in space. Crud.

I suggested to some we try making a fan film based around Section 31 shown in the DS9 series. You could really take some chances, while staying whithin the canon. The insults I got emailed were amazing.

After 30 years I no longer consider myself a trek fan because of both Paramount and the fans themselves. Similar thing happened with New Genesis Evangelion. Enough is enough.
Dont' care about the new movie since I won't be going to see it.
Okay, rant off.

I don't care what all of you say. . .I like Voyager. A lot. I defecate upon all of you who don't. So *poop* *poop* *poop*, go I, as I defecate upon you. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe everyone else is right, but I still like it. So there. Poo on you.

I don't care what all of you say. . .I like Voyager. A lot. I defecate upon all of you who don't. So *poop* *poop* *poop*, go I, as I defecate upon you. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe everyone else is right, but I still like it. So there. Poo on you.

You're just having fantasies about Jerry Ryan aren't you? Admit it. We all did, just admit it Josh. Still couldn't make up for bad writing.

On the other hand, I've been impressed with the production qualities of newvoyages. Hidden frontiers is getting better with each season as CG and keying improves.

Nope. I really did like it. It had a few weak episodes, but I thought of it as the "next next generation." I had this discussion in another thread already, so let's just say that I, as I often do, have the unpopular opinion here.


I'm gonna subscribe to one o' them fancy mail order video services and get me them Babylon 5 DVDs at some point. 'Cause I was into that show too, from what little I saw of it.

Babylon 5 - now that was great sci-fi - and DS9.

Usually I have trouble finding other people who really liked DS9, guess there are
plenty here. Good! I also liked Voyager, but not as much as I did DS9 or TNG.

Speaking of TNG. I recently ordered the Timetravel DVD box. Watched the
series finale last night and must say it was a pretty nice way to end the
series. It could've been better, but at least the focus was on the characters
and not on something else (Enterprise especially and Voyager's ending as well,
yikes).

Why did I buy that box instead of the regular seasons? Money and quality. I've
got two seasons boxes here at home. DS9 season 1 and TNG season 3. It's
unbelievable how bad they look on DVD. It is definitely a straight dump from
some (analog?) tape format. I can't believe this is the quality they are giving
the fans, especially for the absurdly high prices.

The extras on the boxes are far below my expectations as well. Yes, it is pretty
good compared to everything else Star Trek on DVD. Compare the Star Wars
movie DVD's to the Star Trek ones. Now those discs have extras.

They should have tons and tons of material on the TV series. I want to really
go behind the scenes on DS9. I want to see the awesome sets inside and out.
Why can't we have a Voyager bridge tour or something.

The Timetravel box I got is of the same bad quality. I would really like to own
TNG, DS9 & Voyager series on DVD (or whatever format). But that won't
happen until they restore it and it looks awesome.

I've also been to the Star Trek Experience in Vegas which was okay, but
nothing special. As with everything Star Trek / Paramount it feels like a let
down. The easy way out. Just to make money. Why isn't the TNG bridge there
in it's full and original glory, even if it is behind glass. And of course you can't
take any photos of the "fake" ones (yes, there are two there). Sigh.

Then there is the Paramount studio tour. We didn't even had a mention of
Star Trek on that one (not even in the history of the studio the tourguide
gave us) until someone asked. We went to the costume department and again
no Star Trek uniforms to be found. When asked the guy simply said that all
Star Trek stuff was somewhere else, he didn't know.

I talked to another Trek "fan" on the tour and said, why aren't they putting up
DS9 ops and the Voyager bridge (they've got them stowed away somewhere)
in some warehouse behind glass so people can see those amazing sets. That
would get them a lot of fans visits and again money.

It all feels like they are taking the easy / cheap way out whenever they can.
I guess I'm done with that. I just hope any new stuff gets the attention it
deserves. I won't be holding my breath though...

I very much like DS9 as well. I didn't watch it 'til around the last season or two when it was on, always telling myself I would start watching when "This whole war/dominion storyline is over" (not realizing that the was the entire series), and I started to catch up on the insane backstory through reruns, and then got into it. I have a friend who dismisses it as a "soap opera in space" (and he's right, to a degree), but that's good stuff there.


P.S. I met Brent Spiner once. I won't tell you where. He was cool, but I get the impression he's an ass in real life. Mostly 'cause of the documenatry "Trekkies."

The war with the Dominion didn't start until the end of season 5 (if I remember
it correctly). Of course the whole dominion thing started way earlier (first
introduced in the season 2 finale), but I wouldn't say the series was just
about that. For example, much of season 3 was about something else:

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/DS9/episodes/index.html?season=3

I didn't see this before, but startrek.com announced the new film as well:

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/15891.html

Joe: have you finished the section 31 script yet? If so we can start making it :)

Let me put it this way-- I could turn on Voyager, or TNG, and get into it, pretty much any episode. You try to do that with DS9, you're pretty much lost without knowing everything that came before that particular episode. That's what I meant.

Shoot there's enough Star Trek fans around here to shoot a half way decent movie, and star in it as well.

Joe, that Section 31 idea is brilliant, you can dip into the Star Trek world without ever messing it up. And it's a lot more sophisticated than the traditional time travel "oh hey it's fixed now" plot.

Joe isn't the only person to suggest a Section 31-themed show. That idea has been kicked around every Star Trek board since the end of DS9. You can bet it's been pitched by writers.

I fell asleep in the theatre during "Nemesis," but that doesn't mean I won't go see another crappy Trek movie. It's what Trek fans do. Besides, the worst Trek movie (The Final Frontier) beats that Star Wars stuff all to pieces. ;)

All of them--series and movies--had their good points (although, I did give up on Enterprise). I laughed at TOS as a kid, but then when my own kid got into it I got into it, too. I bet I've seen "The Tholian Web" and "The Doomsday Machine" a hundred times. Each.

With all of Star Trek, the attention to technical details astounded me (ever looked at ship schematics and the ST encyclopedia?). And I credit ST with helping my son have a great vocabulary at an early age!

They've all been good entertainment through the years, so I'll check out anything that comes along.

p.s. Edward, if you haven't seen it yet, be sure and catch the rerun of Boston Legal where Denny & Alan go to save the salmon. There's a great Trek reference! And btw, we've got the tri-dimensional chess set from "the mint" people, too! LOL!

Micheal, Keith, just what are we waiting for? We don't actually need Paromounts permission to do an original work based on Section 31. I know Keith has the writing chops to create a great script.
Finally use Celtx for what it's designed for, hehehe.

What say? Any other takers?

Sorry, I just watch it. I don't write it. But thanks for the invite. Be sure to include a race of all female, always-nude aliens.

P.S. I met Brent Spiner once. I won't tell you where. He was cool, but I get the impression he's an ass in real life. Mostly 'cause of the documenatry "Trekkies."

He wasn't that nice a person at the Trek convention. Sarcastic and condecending. Maybe he's just tired ot the whole 'Data' thing.

Sorry, I just watch it. I don't write it. But thanks for the invite. Be sure to include a race of all female, always-nude aliens.

You mean include lots and lots of Orion slave girls? Hmmmm, not a bad idea, but would probably distract from the story.

I thought he was pretty cool there.

I just get that impression of him.


I hope he's not tired of the whole data thing. What else does he have? Playing the guy who made data? Oh no wait, he's also got the role of the villain in "Master of Disguise" to brag about.

You know, the worst episode of Enterprise had to be the very last. They should have given it a glorious ending such as the ones with DS9 and Voyager---a deserving last nail in the Enterprise coffin.

Coun't me in Joe!

The Enterprise ending was definitely the worst, but I wasn't too fond of the
Voyager ending either. I felt cheated and it ended too soon in my opinion.
Felt like they were trying to end up some loose ties too fast in the last couple
of episodes.

Just re-saw the TNG ending which I liked better. Need to re-watch DS9, can't
remember how that ended (NO, do NOT tell me!) exactly. Perhaps I can rent
the show or something.

Voyager should have ended with Janeway waking up in bed. Then Patrick Duffy walks out of the shower.

It was all a dream...

How'd enterprise end, again?

Josh: in the future with Riker and Troi (I think) watching events unfold on the holodeck

Just random comments...

Is the next movie an odd or even? If it is 10, see it. Or was Nemesis 10 and ruins the whole odd/even Trek theory? (the even numbered ones are the good ones.)

"the acting was poor". You guys have been behind the lens long enough to know that only with new talent do you have bad acting. Experienced talent can act badly (phone it in), but it is the director's fault if it makes it to the screen. The director is the one who allows any acting to be bad.

Hopefully, remembering their roots, the Wagon Train through the sky still has life in it. Caveat - NO, Brokeback Mountain is not acceptable Trek material.

I liked them all. Enterprise, I watched the first season. But the formula is so well worn, that it gets boring when you can predict the rest of the episode accurately within the first 5 minutes. I quit watching.

Edit - Oh, forgot script props they will use in the next movie.

I know the Kobayoshi Marua (or how ever you spell it) and the aquarium/whale instititute in SFO will be referenced.

"the acting was poor". You guys have been behind the lens long enough to know that only with new talent do you have bad acting. Experienced talent can act badly (phone it in), but it is the director's fault if it makes it to the screen. The director is the one who allows any acting to be bad


Oh really? So Keanu Reeves is new talent?

Micheal, Keith, just what are we waiting for? We don't actually need Paromounts permission to do an original work based on Section 31. I know Keith has the writing chops to create a great script.
Finally use Celtx for what it's designed for, hehehe.

What say? Any other takers?
I have a personal rule. No fan-fiction.

Why expend energy on someone else's intellectual property?

If you search for 'rant' and 'fan fiction' I believe I've ranted about it here some years in the past.

Keith, I understand. Thats sort of why I wanted to explore Section 31, to get away from the stranglehold the ST canon has on things. To boldly go where no ST fan film has gone before.....I met some strippers at the vegas conf last year very eager to get some more air time, (just kidding).

Maybe an entirely new scfi series set in the same or alternate universe? Free from Paramount IP? They don't own the word 'Federation' as long as we don't use their props and logos from the show.

I would love to do an original low budget SciFi movie. Would you be up for something like that?

Send me an email. I'm actually in the middle of another writing project that is taking up all of my creative time. Eventually we can build it up until we are one of those craigslist projects that get highlighted in Josh Bass' thread.

I like how it's MY thread now. I'll be a good daddy to it, and nuture it with many ridiculous submissions. Maybe I'll even fake a few to make myself look better.

Less is more. Too many trips to the well. They really should try to do something fresh instead of digging up the body over and over again.

Shatner and company own the roles--they created them--its dumb to try and replace them.
My assessment of the shows:

TOS: cheap sets, some hokey costumes--however they tackled controversial subjects and had a good dynamic cast of characters that you cared about. I didnt feel any of the OS movies captured the spirit of the series. The only ones to delve into any sort of political content were the Voyage Home and the Undiscovered Country. Although funny enough, Star Trek 5 had elements that reminded me the most of the old show(the alien horses, the God figure, the cocktail party ending). The OS was like classical theatre with a sci-fi setting.

TNG: sets were better..-but they didnt delve into the controversial subjects of the original(no thinly disguised parables about the Gulf War for example) and because they wanted to show a better vision of the future--they made the human characters be nice with each other all the time--which killed the dramatic opportunities. Cast wise--they just didnt have the charisma of Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley--which is one reason why they couldnt carry the NG movies. The best remembered episode remains the season 3 cliffhanger Borg one because of the villains--not Picard and crew, and the same is true for the NG movies. Worst thing about NG was that they often used technology cop out endings to solve problems--especially those created by technology--which was almost never criticized or seen as a fault. You can only emit a tachion field so many times! The OS wasnt like that--they used human interaction to solve problems most of the time. The science fiction was a backdrop metaphor on the OS--but on the newer shows it was taken too seriously.

DS9--a stronger cast--more dynamic characters to care about(with flaws--although the aliens were the ones with the most conflict). I liked the show until they made Odo get romantic and it ended poorly(Odo mindmelds with the Founders' leader and everyone was lovey dovey as he descends wearing a tuxedo into the slime lake).

Voyager--too much of a copy of the other shows(another vulcan?)--plus they killed the tension they had set up with the Starfleet-Maquis crew--Chakotay became a completely wasted character.
They did have a couple of neat scary villains--the Vidians(organ stealers who got cured rather abruptly) and Species 8472--had a great intro-but screwed up when they had Chakotay get romantic with a human one(and they said Kirk was having all the affairs).

I bailed out of Enterprise early(another vulcan?).

The post-OS shows eventually became like soap operas--but unlike Babylon 5, they didnt have it clearly planned out from start to finish.

I say let Star Trek rest.

He's dead Jim.

Usually I have trouble finding other people who really liked DS9, guess there are
plenty here. Good!

DS9 was the best of the Berman-era series.

Probably mostly because Berman (and Braga) had little to do with it.

Trek blew from the very beginning. Without Nimoy they would've had nothing. The movies weren't much better, although, again, the one directed by Nimoy about the whale was pretty good for its time.

I've never understood this obsession with Trek anymore than I've understood the obsession with Star Wars.

So. . .not a big fan of sci-fi, then?

So. . .not a big fan of sci-fi, then?Actually, I'm a huge fan of sci-fi. Which is why I think Star Trek blows.

Good to know.

I've never understood this obsession with Trek anymore than I've understood the obsession with Star Wars.The best sci-fi is found in books. :-)

Can I assume you like a different type of Sci-fi than what trek offers, namely, a type more based on real science rather than "fantasy set in space?"

I don't really care for real science. I dig outlandishness over a story about two guys stranded 'cause their moon rover broke an axle, or something.

Authors I dig---

Robert J. Sawyer, Alistair Reynolds. . .well crap, I guess that's it for novels.

I've read any number of anthologies of stuff from the 30's til now. I gotta say, the 80s, in my opinion, took a real downturn in quality. I don't know if, in the short form world, it's "recovered".

There's a whole bunch of good sci-fi books I read, just can't remember their titles. There were some good sci-fi movies too, can't remember their titles either---and they never seem to reappear on basic cable.

Examples, please?

My first foray into sci-fi books was the Halo series with the Reach Prologue to the game.

These scifi authors have provided me with great entertainment over the years:

Kim Stanley Robinson
Neal Stephenson
Dan Simmons
China Mieville
Iain M. Banks

Older generation but still producing:
Robert Silverberg
William Gibson
Gene Wolfe
C.J. Cherryh
Fred Saberhagen
Joe Haldeman

What i dont like is the "science as religion" approach to sci-fi where supposedly it only works if the science is real or possible--kind of pointless for a fiction story. Just using the term "sci-fi" is supposedly un-pc. You are supposed to say "SF" when talking about "respectable" science fiction.

1968 had the two sides of the coin for movies: 2001: A Space Odyssey..visually striking--but not exactly an accessible film. I still dont understand the point of it.

The other is Planet of the Apes. Both have philosophical content but go in completely different directions.

I love it when the gorilla guard is blasting Heston with the water hose and says: shut up you freak!!!

It's a madhouse. A madhoooooouse!

I like the term "speculative fiction". That would cover a lot of ground from magical realism to hard science.

<<1968 had the two sides of the coin for movies: 2001: A Space Odyssey..visually striking--but not exactly an accessible film. I still dont understand the point of it<<

It was about the ascension of man into a purely spiritual being (aka pure energy). BTW in the actual book(s) the monoliths name is Lucifer. Clarke is virulantly antiChristian and makes no bones about it in his books. Even in Childhoods End the aliens witnessing the transformation look like our traditional pictures of Satan, horns and tails included.

If you can get by that, he has written some great SF and was the one who first conceived of a sattlelite staying at a fixed point in space above earth(geosynchronous). All modern communication birds as based on his theories.

<It was about the ascension of man into a purely spiritual being (aka pure energy).>

**
that is the most succinct breakdown of it I have ever read.