I'm planning on offering this service to bands, where I can film an entire set (forty five minutes at roughly $60 including editing) on a VX2100 using sound recorded straight from the mixing desk or a single track using a pre-recorded song as audio dubbing. Either option outputted to a DVD, a CD with various formats and a Mini-DV tape.

One of my friends wrote to me saying:

Captain Stu has used a company called Full Stop productions for our previous filming and doing most of what you have quoted for including taking sound from the desk etc... we were charged R600 ($120) for the use of 3 cameras for 2 hours of filming at our lanuch and then on top of that an extra R200 ($40) for editing. They also had it done within 2 weeks and we got 8 copies on DVD and other formats for internet etc....so here are some of my thought on if you want to be competative;

I think the filming of one live song and dubbing with a recorded track price is spot on but i think you should look again at your full set prices, then remember that you are using only one camera so when it comes to editing its going to look very different from if you filmed with 3 cameras and have multiple angles...

Should I maybe scrap this entire service altogether? Or is possible to film a good looking video with one camera using lots of cutaways to replace the unusable video between moving from one positition to another?

I could use cutaways of shots of the venue and crowd shots taken before their performance (if I'm filimg a full set)...Crowd shots from other bands even to splice into another band's performance. Is it possible to get crowd shots during the actual performance? If I focused the camera on the crowd, I'd be losing shots of the band and there'd be a break in sync between audio and video, so I think it's best to use earlier crowd shots for cutaways...I think it would be a lot easier to film single songs with a pre-recorded audio track then an entire set...Should I scrap the full set service?

Any advice is appreciated!

You can shoot with one camera and getting earlier or later shots of crowd, venue, etc. is a good idea for cutaways. At the very least, I would advise you to invest in a separate sound recording device which can serve as a continuous audio track during cutaway shots from your 'main angle'. The audio track should be recorded from a tape out stereo pair on the mixing console.

-gb-

Yeah, I'd be recording straight to my laptop from the mixer. If filming an entire set, is it not advisable to film shots of the crowd during the actual performance? I can imagine that by doing this, there'll be less clean footage of the band to use to edit against the audio track.

If filming an entire set, is it not advisable to film shots of the crowd during the actual performance?

If you do, what will you use for cutaway while you are repositioning the camera to and from the crowd shots?

A pre or post crowd shot would give you a clean cutaway to and from main camera angle because there won't be loss of recording time for camera movement. Another good cutaway shot would be to have a head shot of one of the musicians just playing and not singing. You could throw that over any song as long as the lighting is the same and you won't know what song the facial expression belongs with. Perhaps taping single camera over multiple performances by the same band in the same venue can give you the coverage of alternate angles you need for a clean edit.

-gb-

...using sound recorded straight from the mixing desk or a single track using a pre-recorded song as audio dubbing.

Most likely they will not be playing the song at EXACTLY the same tempo as the studio track. You'd have to do A LOT of cuts to make it work.

Also, sound engineers are incredibly grumpy, and most won't let you have a line out of their soundboard. You will need the band to specifically instruct them to do it, and guarantee it. Let them know that if you don't get a main mix line, the audio won't sound good.

In a case like that, if you can't multi-track it, what I would do it get some sort of a recorder that has at least two inputs. Put the line out of the board into one channel, and set up an ambient mic for channel two, then do a mix later to make it sound natural.


I've done this quite a bit for the band I do a lot of work for.

Shooting with one camera at a live event is tough. I usually just do it so the band can see and hear themselves, or to gather footage for DVDs. It's tough to make anything useable with one camera.

Imagine if you cut to a scene of the crowd in the middle of the song. What about the lights? They aren't going to match, and it will be quite obvious I think.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just offer a few other things to think about what you're getting into. Working with rock bands is some of the most fun work I do, but it's frustrating at times as well.

Good luck!!

Cool, thanks...What kind of audio recorder would you use? I was going to use my laptop, the realized it doesn't have a line-in and I can't seem to find an external audio adapter for cheap.

I wouldn't do it with fewer than 2 cameras (unless you do like Wade mentioned, just for the band to view)
One camera mounted, set on a wide shot of the band (hung from the ceiling would work best) and one hand held, or on sticks in a good location to get closeups, both cameras running all the time, and the cut together in post.

you could get a board mix to the stationary camera, and use the other for wild sound. I know in my old band, the only things that went thru the board were vocals and my sax, drums were unmiked, guitars, bass and keys used their own amps.

and your price seems very very low. you're not just working during the set, but have set up and break down, and then editing...

At least do one static wide angle for cutaways, and manned camera for closeups.

By the way, all that for $60.00 ? If it is $60 USD, that wouldn't buy gas to get to the gig, and a McDonalds hamburger. When you start enditing 2 cams, I figure 3 to 5 hours of work. Let's see, 1.5 hours travel to and from venue, set up and breakdown, 1.5 conservatively, 1 hour to shoot. Thats about 8 hours-- $ 7.50 per hour... is that a good wage ?

Cool, thanks...What kind of audio recorder would you use? I was going to use my laptop, the realized it doesn't have a line-in and I can't seem to find an external audio adapter for cheap.

I have a Creative Labs USB sound card that has line in, Mic in, optical in and out, and would do the trick. About $60.00 US, as I recall. Could go IRiver or Minidisc for recorder too.

Aviv - you need to multiply your price by at least a factor of 10!!! When you add up all the time you'll spend on the whole project and divide that into $60 or even $100 you're only going to be making minumum wage, less than you'd earn flippinig hamburgers. And cameras, mics, etc don't buy themselves - you gotta pay for their purchase or replacement as well as your own pocket money

Well, this is a small part of the business service I'm offering. I'd like to specialize in full narrative music video production. Also, most of these bands are relatively small and I don't think they'd be able to pay high fees...I am charging almost 50% of a company that uses three camera's fee...

I have a VHS-C camera which I've been using for a long time...Should I use that as my static camera? I'd be using the main camera for hand-held shots though that are more dynamic for a live video than tripod shots...(which would also take time to set up when moving about)

Well, this is a small part of the business service I'm offering. I'd like to specialize in full narrative music video production. Also, most of these bands are relatively small and I don't think they'd be able to pay high fees...I am charging almost 50% of a company that uses three camera's fee...

I have a VHS-C camera which I've been using for a long time...Should I use that as my static camera? I'd be using the main camera for hand-held shots though that are more dynamic for a live video than tripod shots...(which would also take time to set up when moving about)

You could use the VHS but I don't think it would intercut well with the DV - too much difference in the image quality.

You really need to run some numbers. for a 45 minute finished product I don't see how you could do it in less than around 20 hours of total time involved when you take into account planning, setup, prepping the music for playback, shooting, capturing, editing, etc etc etc. Are you really willing to work for $2.00 to $3.00 per hour????

Well, this is a small part of the business service I'm offering. I'd like to specialize in full narrative music video production. Also, most of these bands are relatively small and I don't think they'd be able to pay high fees...I am charging almost 50% of a company that uses three camera's fee...

I have a VHS-C camera which I've been using for a long time...Should I use that as my static camera? I'd be using the main camera for hand-held shots though that are more dynamic for a live video than tripod shots...(which would also take time to set up when moving about)

Just possibly could work if edited and corrected right. Step 1 to capture, then start working on sharpness, contrast, color to see if you can get it close. Obviously wouldn't want it up to long. Maybe use as Picture in Picture.. with other cutaways.

A lot will depend upon the venue.. most are dark or poorly lit, and while the stage may be lit, if they wander off they drop off into never never land.

As other's have said you really need to run some numbers, realistic numbers, the key word you used was "business." when I did production work for others I used to charge an average $1,000 per finished minute of product and that is still the estimate I use. (most of my video production is on my day gig where I am on salary, I do some for myself and Voice overs for others)

Yeah, but I like I said, this is for small (teenage/early 20s) bands...And a company that did a three camera shoot only charged $180. They'll obviously see 3 camera's as getting a better result, and $180 is still affordable. Also, I'm giving you $ conversions, three hundred and fifty rand to a sixteen year has more value than $60 would, if that makes sense. Also, it's more penetrative pricing...When I get more confident and reputable, I'll raise prices.

I've been using that VHS-C cam for 4 years and I really want to get as far away from it as possible, the VX2100 will be the first DV cam I'll be getting and I really don't want to work with a cheap camera again...Ever. Also, simply having such a camera would really lose any professional image I try project, in my opinion.

I've been using that VHS-C cam for 4 years and I really want to get as far away from it as possible, the VX2100 will be the first DV cam I'll be getting and I really don't want to work with a cheap camera again...Ever.

I think your plan is a way to get started, but I wouldn't do it for that price more than a few times. There is a reason young bands don't have good videos: they are expensive to make!

Don't forget about the wear and tear on your precious vx2100! Shooting a full set then capturing that footage is at least 2-3 hours, plus travelling, shooting in a fairly hazardous environment...

On the other hand, if you don't have much else to do $60 is better in your pocket than not. When I do cheap work like that I stack functions and try new techniques, learn stuff that I might not risk on a higher profile client.

And after 40 of these or so you'll have paid off your camera...

Take care,
Chris

I've got a different idea. $60 for an edited video of even one song, much less a whole 45 to 60 minute set, is so far below a fair market value that you shouldn't even think about doing it for that. If you really want to do some of these gigs because a: you need the practice or want to experiment; or b: really like the bands and want to do them a favour; or c: want clips for your reel or to get a rep as the go-to guy for indy bands who want a music video made, then go all the way and do them for free aside from direct out-of-pocket expenses. If you're professional enough to do it as a business at all, you're professional enough to charge what other established, pros charge (and I doubt the company that does 'em for $180 falls into that category.) Just starting out perhaps your rates should be on the low end of a more established professional's rates but they still should be in the same general range. Don't dramatically undercut your peers. You'll actually be better off from a professional reputation and business precedent viewpoint if you charge nothing at all than if you charge such a nominal amount that it clearly labels you as an amateur not to be taken seriously. You'll find you get less negative reaction from your clients with "The first one was free because I was testing a new camera but this one's for real and it'll be $1000" than you will from "I know I only charged you $60 for the first one but this one will be $150 because of ...." The 60 dollar rate sets a precedent that you're bargain basement, 2nd-string while doing it pro-bono does not.

A number of years ago an acquaintance of mine had an interesting esperience with rates. He was a computer consultant who charged $100 per hour. He had too many demands on his time and he wanted to cut back a bit on the client load so he reasoned that if he raised his rates some of his clients would drop away. He went to $175 an hour. Guess what happened ... his client load went UP! The higher rate gave people even more of an impression he was top-drawer (which he was) and everyone wanted him. The same sort of thing applies in any profession where your product is your talent, your skills, and your credibility.

Cool, thanks...What kind of audio recorder would you use? I was going to use my laptop, the realized it doesn't have a line-in and I can't seem to find an external audio adapter for cheap.


There are some USB Soundblaster cards you could use for your laptop.

I used a Marantz CDR-300 CD recorder...they work great and are very portable.

I started out doing some music videos for bands like you're talking about while was in college, and afterwards without getting paid for any of it. I like working with the music industry, it helps the band out, and it beefed up my demo reel. I'm now getting some paying jobs doing the same thing from other bands in the area, so it's working out well.

Good luck to you.

Aviv,

I think we are losing something in the currency conversion. xe.com gave me this
1.00 USDUnited States Dollars = 6.01681 ZARSouth Africa Rand

give us an idea of what $60 USD would buy in SA, say in terms of movie tickets, food, rent etc?

Ok,

$60 is R360 abouts, a movie ticket is R14, fast-food can range from R5 to R25 (single cheese burger to combo meal, in regards to McDs)...DVD can be R59 to R120 depending on release, PC Game, from R99 to R250 also depending on release....It is a fair bit of cash for an 18 year old still living at home.

I've been thinking about the best way to shoot, having the camera \on a tripod (panning and tilting where appropriate) at a different angle for each song would be the best bet in terms of stablitiy, but of course there'd only be an angle change every four minutes or so, which can be pretty boring. I can already see this as a reason to charge less, people would definitely pay R400 more to have three cameras and a very dynamic looking video.

I'm actually expecting to make the most money out of full music video production for the bands that can afford it, and that's of course also easy enough to work with having only one camera.

I think most of these bands would want a live video to put on their website for people to see as a cheap alternative to having a full fledged video done rather than just being a video for the band to watch to see their performance, so I'd imagine that they'd want something with lots of cuts and different shots, so I'm thinking the best route would be to film hand-held, easily moving to a different angle, and using lots of cutaways between shots.

Is the best bet to maybe ask the band what they want stressing the pros and cons of each method?

Ok,

$60 is R360 abouts, a movie ticket is R14, fast-food can range from R5 to R25 (single cheese burger to combo meal, in regards to McDs)...DVD can be R59 to R120 depending on release, PC Game, from R99 to R250 also depending on release....It is a fair bit of cash for an 18 year old still living at home.

I've been thinking about the best way to shoot, having the camera \on a tripod (panning and tilting where appropriate) at a different angle for each song would be the best bet in terms of stablitiy, but of course there'd only be an angle change every four minutes or so, which can be pretty boring. I can already see this as a reason to charge less, people would definitely pay R400 more to have three cameras and a very dynamic looking video.

I'm actually expecting to make the most money out of full music video production for the bands that can afford it, and that's of course also easy enough to work with having only one camera.

I think most of these bands would want a live video to put on their website for people to see as a cheap alternative to having a full fledged video done rather than just being a video for the band to watch to see their performance, so I'd imagine that they'd want something with lots of cuts and different shots, so I'm thinking the best route would be to film hand-held, easily moving to a different angle, and using lots of cutaways between shots.

Is the best bet to maybe ask the band what they want stressing the pros and cons of each method?

I'm going to chime in here and add my few cents worth - and thats in SA Rands!

Aviv, what you are hoping to achieve here is really what 90% of the people here have indicated - its not a feasible project at that value. Wanting to earn those extra few rands for someone your age is not a bad thing and I commend you on your innovative spirit.

However, the price you mentioned for a three cam shoot is very reasonable! I for one would not work at that price and have done quite a few music dvd's for local Cape Town bands.

Should you want to earn extra money, there is a market for the cheaper versions of wedding/christening/etc videos which could easily net you about R1500-2000 per event. That would sound like a better proposition to me. One thing you must strongly consider is getting hold of another mini-dv camera. In any work you need to do, one camera just doesn't cut it. And to mix VHS footage with DV footage would be a travesty!!!

I'm sure Dad can afford you a loan for another cheaper mini-dv camera which you can use as a B roll camera.

Dad just paid 20 grand for the VX2100 in faith that I'd be able to do something with it, which I'm pretty adament in doing :D

Jeremy, it's nice to see a local here...I'm quite involved with the local Punk music community, so I have a lot of chances to videograph a lot of gigs, the thing is that most of these bands really can't afford extravagant productions...More upmarket bands like The Rudimentals, for instance, are prepared to pay in between 15 to 30k for a good video, but there's no way I'm going to take on that scale project. (especially when they used my lecturer as the DOP on their last video :P).

Half of the idea is for experience and the other half is just to get some cash going, I'm pretty confident that if things work out well for the first two or three projects, I'd raise prices.

Also, keep in mind that these are cheap prices for a simple live video, if a band approached me for a full on music video, I'd be far more confident to charge a more reasonable price...It's also easier to work with one camera in a narrative music video than a live gig.

If there's a more experienced company charging R800 for a 3 camera shoot and edit, I think it's almost cocky for me to charge anything more than R400 for a one camera shoot and edit.

Passion wise, I'll always be a filmmaker, I'll always want to tell my own stories and not record other peoples' memories, this little venture is also just a way to store a few rands over for a budget for a future project of my own I'd like to pursue.

Also, even though I'm Jewish (:P), I really don't like money-talk, I just don't feel right at my age charging someone a lot of money for something...It just seems wrong, of course this is just a mentality I need to get out to succeed as a business person, but right now, I guess I'm doing it more for the fun and experience than making a living.

Dad just paid 20 grand for the VX2100 in faith that I'd be able to do something with it, which I'm pretty adament in doing :D
.
Just for two grand more you could have had HDV!! Ah well - each to his own.

Good luck and let us know how the first one turns out

Actually, for a grand more at Fotolens in Belville (minus all the accesories like an extra light and tripod)...I wanted a camera that performs well in low-light seeing as I'm primarily going to be filming in dark environments (clubs etc)...Believe me, and Boyd will testifiy, I had a BIG dilemma over which camera to get :D