Hey,

I'm new to the forum so forgive me if I've posted this in the wrong place. I need some advice, I'm looking to buy either a Red Rock M2 or the Letus 35 Flip. I've read all the post and it seems there is even split between good and bad on both units.

I'm leaning twards the Letus Flip 35 and would like to hear from anyone that can give me a user perspective.

One concern is that some say the Letus flip is a bit grainy. Also, is there a difference between the Letus Flip and the Letus flip enhanced, or are they the same thing? I’d like to put in my order Sunday night.

Also any advice on a good mattebox for the HVX200. I'd like to buy Redrock's mattebox, but hear it won't be available for a while still

-Ken

Letus Flip is not for the HVX. It's a light hungry device as it is, couple that with the resolution of the HVX and man you have a ton of grain in the picture. The motor just is not fast enough to keep the grain from being noticed and you get this oscillation across the image in anything less than ideal lighting conditions.

I've heard many good things about the Redrock M2.
If I'm not mistaken, on the set of '24' they thought it was even better then the official Mini35 (I think because it had less light loss).

ps: you could ask one of the moderators to move your thread to the Alternative Imaging Methods, where I think it's more approperiate.
Best regards,

The actual Letus35 flip Enhanced is HD and is for the HVX-200, you need the adapter ring 82mm-72mm
I tried the M2 and the Letus35FE and i choosed the Letus for the following reasons:

- way sharper image
- square gg, no vignetting due to CD shaped gg found in the M2
- no grain if you keep your shutter at 50 or 60
- flipped image (a total luxury)

- square gg, no vignetting due to CD shaped gg found in the M2


the vignetting has more to do with the optics (acromat, lenses,) than the shape of the glass.

kind of like using a projector to put an image on a huge wall versus projecting it on a projector screen, the image is the same dimensions (given everything else like distance to the target is the same) no matter the shape of the wall versus the screen. The brightness across the image, while may be not as nice looking on a wall, will not look vignetted simply because it is on an inferior viewing surface.

Letus Flip is not for the HVX. It's a light hungry device as it is, couple that with the resolution of the HVX and man you have a ton of grain in the picture. The motor just is not fast enough to keep the grain from being noticed and you get this oscillation across the image in anything less than ideal lighting conditions.

Not sure where you are getting this information from Greg. Is this from personal experience? I agree it is light-hungry but the grain is almost imperceptable and regarding the oscillation issue, hasn't happened to me and I've used it extensively.

I've got a Letus35 Flip Enhanced on the HVX, and it works extremely well. It loses maybe 1.5 stops of light (including the f/1.8 lens I have mounted on it). The HVX has plenty of HD resolution, and the Letus Flip gives up practically none of it.

I think the Brevis better than both. Less light loss and there should be a flip module very soon. I have messed with them all EXTENSIVELY.



ash =o)

Brevis+flip is going to be probably twice the price though. The killer thing about the Letus35 Flip Enhanced is the price; $700 (including shipping). Other adapters may or may not be better, but nothing compares to the Letus price.

This is my first shot made with the Letus35FE (handhold, i hadn't yet the rods so the image is not centered and you see the borders

download the DVPAL to be seen in your TV monitor
http://www.giovannisperanza.com/welcome2/images/stories/videoclips/letu35feDVPAL

Mpeg4 movie:
http://www.giovannisperanza.com/welcome2/images/stories/videoclips/Letus35FE-latitude.mov
The mpg4 movie seen on the computer monitor really doesn't render the quality of the video seen in the tv post

The only Letus I really liked was the LetusXL v2, really solid. But Barry is correct, in the price range there is nothing else close.



ash =o)

IMHO price has very little to do with choosing the right 35mm adaptor.
When you have all the main contenders under $1500 the Brevis stands out a mile !
Also if you take what you do serioulsy then setup time as you will know is one of the most important factors to consider.
Want low light performance ?
Brevis again is the clear winner by a mile ! How many times have you been on a shoot and the light starts to drop, you only have a certain amount of time get the shot. If you don't have the Brevis you are going to have to finish a good hour before you would with the others. Sometimes this could mean having to pay the hole crew an extra day to reshoot the next day.
All the current top adaptors with their constant revisions and improvements produce great results in the right hands but one stands out.
It's name is BREVIS35.

Brevis does flip the image? has it a fixed GG?
So far (and i really don't want to start a product war) Letus35FE has the shaprest and less distorted image, with the flip bonus.
i'm shooting some amazing examples that i will show in the near future.

Giovanni,

How do yuou know that the Letus Flip has the sharpest image?
Have you compared them?
BTW, What do you mean by fixed GG?

Matt, have you compared the Brevis to the Letus Flip Enhanced?

I have a Brevis and like it very much and am impressed with Dennis's steady improvements, but I would like to see how the Letus compares. 1.5 stops of light loss could be a drag though.

What about the bokeh differences? Dennis is offering 3 different screens now. More bokeh with each one, but more bokeh equals more light loss.

Bokeh and screens?
Diffusing screens create fake bokeh, lavaged and unsharp image, with fixed thus visible grain.
Bokeh is obtained with a 35mm size GG. What's the size of that adapter's GG?

I'm sorry but i don't understand what you mean by:

"Diffusing screens create fake bokeh, lavaged and unsharp image, with fixed thus visible grain."

By diffusing screen I mean what you are calling the GG which is usually not actually ground glass, its a screen of some kind of diffusion material (could be ground glass, plastic wax or whatever) on which the 35mm image is focused for the adapter.

I don't know how the Letus works. I read that it has a motor, so I assume it probably has a vibrating or rotating diffusion screen ( call it just a screen if you like). Perhaps I'm wrong.

Though it may seem contrary to our ordinary understanding, on these adapters, the nature of the screen material affects how much light is needed, how much of a diffusion or softening of the image occurs, how sharp the image is and how sharp it is corner to corner, and most surprisingly and most noticably how much apparent depth of field is in the image.

This is clear when you look at the different screens Dennis provides.
The Brevis with the #1 screen is definately sharper than the M2 but that is partly because it is the least diffusing of his screens. They are more similar with the Brevis's heavier screen (#3) though I haven't tested his latest one yet.
I find the heavier screens on the M2 and #3 Brevis to be a much prettier look, but for some jobs they are not appropriate - either too slow, too soft, or too little depth of field.

You still didn't mention whether you actually compared the Letus to the Brevis. I'm not contradicting you here I'm just trying to separate hearsay from genuine observations. There is a lot we can teach each other about these adapters.

I would love to know more about the Letus as it sounds less expensive and apparently works well enough for Barry.

Does it also have a vibrating screen?
How good is corner to corner sharpness?
Do you start to see grain at f stops from 5.6 and higher?
How much freedom do you have to you different shutter speeds or camera speeds ( the new Brevis is pretty good at this).
How fast are the lenses you use?
I've noticed with the Brevis and M2 on my HVX200 that I get no almost no change opening my f1.4 Nikkor lenses beyond f2.5 or so. This is frustrating. Is that also true on the Letus?

You still didn't mention whether you actually compared the Letus to the Brevis.
No, i didn't compare them, i just compared the Letus35FE and the M2. There was a huge difference in sharpness, vignetting and overall image definition, in favor of the Letus35FE. The M2 seemed to not be able to focus at infinity. I and another D.P tried to get that infinity sharpness, but nope.

And about the Brevis, i'm just wondering in my ignorance how can a 35mm adapter work with a fixed GG without showing soon or later some fixed grain. Maybe i'm missing something.

(about Letus35FE)
Does it also have a vibrating screen?
Yes

How good is corner to corner sharpness?
It's even and this was one of the main selling factors to me.

Do you start to see grain at f stops from 5.6 and higher?
No, there is no graing visible at any iris aperture, provided that the shutter is at 50

How much freedom do you have to you different shutter speeds or camera speeds ( the new Brevis is pretty good at this).
As mentioned above, over 50 the grain becomes more and more visible.

How fast are the lenses you use?
Actually i have a 50mm f/1.4 lens, a 24mm f/2.8 lens and a zoom lens. I found that faster lenses than f/1.4 don't add so much because to get a good image you still have to close them to f/1.4, unless you spend $$$$

I've noticed with the Brevis and M2 on my HVX200 that I get no almost no change opening my f1.4 Nikkor lenses beyond f2.5 or so. This is frustrating. Is that also true on the Letus?

With the Letus the difference is huge. When i started with my f/3.5 zoom lens i noticed few bokeh, but once i got my 50mm f/1.4 Nikkor lens, the bokeh is extraordinary. This is due to the fact that the Letus35FE has a full sized 35mm GG. What about the Brevis?

I don't know how the Letus works. I read that it has a motor, so I assume it probably has a vibrating or rotating diffusion screen ( call it just a screen if you like). Perhaps I'm wrong.
Letus35 Flip Enhanced uses a vibrating ground glass.

Though it may seem contrary to our ordinary understanding, on these adapters, the nature of the screen material affects how much light is needed, how much of a diffusion or softening of the image occurs, how sharp the image is and how sharp it is corner to corner, and most surprisingly and most noticably how much apparent depth of field is in the image.
Mostly accurate, yes. As a base corollary, the coarser the ground glass, the sharper the image and the more evenly-diffused the light will be (i.e., no hotspot in the center and no darkening vignetting in the corners), but also the more light loss. The more transparent the screen is the more light it'll transmit, but the less evenly the light will be distributed across the GG's surface (meaning you're more inclined to have a hotspot in the center and darker corners).

But the texture of the screen changing the depth of field? Not possible. The DOF is decided by the optics of the lens; it'll exhibit identical DOF regardless of what you project that image onto.

I would love to know more about the Letus as it sounds less expensive and apparently works well enough for Barry.
I've posted a review for DVXUser; I don't know when it'll go "live".

Does it also have a vibrating screen?
Yes.

How good is corner to corner sharpness?
Pretty good, but there is definitely softening in the corners.

Do you start to see grain at f stops from 5.6 and higher?
Yep.

How much freedom do you have to you different shutter speeds or camera speeds ( the new Brevis is pretty good at this).
Shorter shutter speeds start making the grain more visible. 1/60th or slower is best.

How fast are the lenses you use?
I was using 1.8.

I've noticed with the Brevis and M2 on my HVX200 that I get no almost no change opening my f1.4 Nikkor lenses beyond f2.5 or so. This is frustrating. Is that also true on the Letus?
Not sure what you mean? No change in brightness? Or no change in DOF? There certainly should be changes; 2.5 to 1.4 is almost two full stops.

OK, so we don't know which is the sharpest adapter.

Brevis is not a fixed screen but vibrating like the Letus sounds.

Your problems with the M2 were greatly exagerated because it was not set up right. That tends to be a problem with all these adapters. it took me 3 days to set up the M2 properly just so that my camera was focused on a centered screen.

These adapters require that the HVX is centered on a screen that is flat to the HVX itself, at an optimum distance from the HVX so that focusing is optimized for the achromat ( tiny differences can alter this radically), and that the 35mm mount is at the proper back focus distance from the screen so that it focuses properly.

Your M2 was not even focusing the 35mm lens properly on the rotating screen. That's why you didn't achieve focus at infinity. I can only imagine what the other misadjustments were, so your comparison with the M2 was not fair to a properly functioning M2. However one thing I don't like about the M2 was there was too much slop in the system altogether.

There's alot of pot luck in this. My M2 was focused perfectly for the Nikon but not for my HVX. When I first got my Brevis it worked fine for the HVX but the Nikon was way off and my complaints to Dennis help lead to his new collimation system.

To answer your questions.

Brevis is a full sized 35mm screen, actually a bit larger. What makes you say the M2 is not? I assume it has to be to get the 35mm lens to back focus correctly.

The Brevis tends to show grain at apertures over f4 on the 35mm lens. This is a problem but easy to expose for inside the HVX so I don't complain. It may vary with the screens.

Corner to corner is pretty good but I always see a slight difference between where center and corners focus best on the HVX. You might not notice this unless you are looking at images with a large resolution chart (3 or 4') which I highly recommend. in fact I think if you use these adapters without a large resoultion chart you're really guessing and can't see if you've optimized set-up.

Brevis seems to have a lot of freedom for more closed shutters so i can shoot high speed. This is a function of the oscillation speed which is variable but a pain to switch.

Re: f1.4 lens, If you put that on your Letus, do you see 2 stops of exposure increase as you open from f2.8 to f1.4?

I don't on the other adapters. i hardly see any change at all. I'm very interested in this. It's odd, and I think may stem from the distance the HVX is from the diffusion screen.

Barry,

"But the texture of the screen changing the depth of field? Not possible. The DOF is decided by the optics of the lens; it'll exhibit identical DOF regardless of what you project that image onto."

I'm sorry, but although it seems impossible, you are dead wrong here, and the proof is in the viewing. With the Brevis the diffusers radically alter what I'm calling apparent depth of field, but it is 100% real. Its very dramatic difference nothing like putting a promist in front of a lens.

It really bent my brain for a while but evetually i settled on the idea that out of focus circles of confusion are exagerrated by some diffusers. It is an observable fact and I do understand DOF.

Also Dennis claims that he is building screens that compensate for off axis light so that less diffusing screens don't vignette. The #1 screen is very even on an HVX.

This adapter screen business is really a bit of a no man's land where ordinary rules seem to be able to change.

Having built my own M2 type adapter, from the Redrock plans as a guide, the infinity focus issue is clearly caused by an improper distance of the 35mm lens from the spinning screen. Corresponding to that, you will like see that that close focusing using the 35mm lens will actually be closer than the lens is supposed to get. Essentially, in terms of what we learned from 35mm still photography, if you add an extension tube to your lens, you will be able to focus closer, but lose infiniity focus. So the lens needs to be moved back closer to the spinning screen, or the screen has to be adjusted closer.

So here are my personal conclusions:
1) M2 is to me too complicated to set up, the result is not better than the others, the image is reversed, many stops are eated.

2) Brevis tends to show grain at apertures over f4 !!!!???? So just use your on camera lens! The bokeh at f/4 is so little that it's not worth using an adapter.

3) Any diffuser just adds BLUR, not BOKEH. Please read some explanation out there in the web to understand how bokeh is achieved and the difference between bokeh and lack of detail.

But at the end what matters is the result, maybe the Brevis gives wonderful results, no matter how, we want great photography, nothing else.

Giovanni,

I've been in this business for 30 years. I'm an excellant tech. I know what I am talking about.

You have not seen the effect I am describing, didn't realize you hadn't set up the M2 properly, and assumed the Brevis worked differently than it did, so show a touch of humility and don't make claims you can't back up, it only confuses everyone else. We are all in this to learn from one another.

I'm using "Bokeh " to refer to low depth of field in general. Your statement " Any diffuser just adds BLUR, not BOKEH " as I explained to Barry below happens to be dead wrong. You have to see it to believe though. Its very dramatic difference nothing like putting a promist in front of a lens.

(Still photographers tend to be more specific and compare the bokeh of different iris mechisms but we're not being that detailed here.)

I should have been clearer in explaining that it shows grain at apertures more closed than f4 (5.6 and above) though in fact even at quite small apertures the DOF can be much lower than with a clean HVX lens.

If you are happy with the Letus that's great.

However a few things you said about the Letus are contradicted by Barry in his post below:

Quote:
How good is corner to corner sharpness?
Pretty good, but there is definitely softening in the corners.

Quote:
Do you start to see grain at f stops from 5.6 and higher?
Yep.

I would appreciate if you or someone else tests the question of opening f1.4 lenses from 2.8 to 1.4 and posts detail explaining what lenses and video camera they are using.

I will post some footage in some weeks

Again, I have used them all, professionally set up and working to their max capabilities.

The Letus loses the most light (expected with the flip) and is the least flexible. It is very easy to set up and hard to screw up. It starts to show grain the more you stop down, the motor is locked to one speed, so this cannot be overcome.

The M2 loses the next most light but is by far the hardest to set up (similar to the SGpro), when set up properly it can be tack sharp and with the spinning GG can be used at high shutters and more closed apertures(though with the light loss you will likely never need them). There is a robust community and it is more mature than many adapters in support and the company behind it.

The Brevis is by far the most versatile, it can be set up much quicker than the M2 but with the number of adjustments that can be made, takes more time than the Letus. Elements are swappable, there are currently 5 different elements for different situations. The CF1 and CF1L can be used with shutters up to 120 (I have got it to 250 before) with the motor vibrating faster and can be used up to F8 (easily). You can slap on CF1L and go without rods and use the adapter handheld in natural light, even indoors, no other adapter offers this. The CF3L element (provides THE most shallow DOF of all the adapters) really needs lenses F2.8 or faster and the shutter needs to stay in the 1/48th area.

They all have pluses and minuses and maybe the Letus is best for some, considering the price especially, but in general, it is inferior to both the Brevis and the M2 (as well as the SGpro).




ash =o)

Ash,

Thanks, that's very usefull. There's no substitute for real hands on experience.
I agree with you about the difference between the M2 and the Brevis though the Brevis is only more time consuming if you start changing things around.

Were you using the old Letus or the new Letus Flip enhanced though?

- Lenny

I have used the latest letus as well as the LetuxXL v2 (which I quite liked other than the 1.9X zoom factor). No matter what, the Brevis is easier to set up than the M2. Most M2 shooters leave it on the camera.



ash =o)

Ash -

Do you remember which version of the SGPro you were using?
I ask, because Wayne is now on Version 3, with a new rod support system as well (hard mount lines up more accurately and easier, i have read). I've got one on order - and will report in accordingly...

Thanks,
Lonnie

It was not the latest. It it a great product but the least mature so the community behind it is fairly small and lead times are still VERY long. I found it easier to get tack sharp than the M2. It also does not seem to have some of the set up issues that can plague the M2 (wobbling ground glass) and the spinning GG seems more fine tuned. The only real negative for me was the fact that it has to be used on rods. It produces a VERY clean image at almost every aperture and shutter speed. My only real issue with the image was that while all 35mm adapters have a somewhat unnatural bokeh, the SGpro's seemed more exaggerated somehow. This was really only in situations with EXTREMELY shallow DOF though.


ash =o)

As always Ash, I appreciate your real world experience and details. I am solely interested in picture quality, and the issue of the rods is not a an issue for me at all. My uses are usually cinematic in approach, so I'm usually on some sort of support anyways. And Wayne's new achromat appears to be pretty sweet.

However, the bokah is a big deal - thus...
I'm backordered until the 25th of September, but when I receive it, I'd be happy to report in about it.

Thanks,
Lonnie

You can see what I mean in some of the clips on the SGpro site. Note that is still looks very good. I might be out in Las Vegas at the end of September for several days on a shoot, we need to hook up and talk shop.



ash =o)

Aaaah NAB 2008 - Hmmm With the Brevis introducing the computer chip controlled system, does it now outclass the Letus? Or does the Letus35 extreme still "rock the house" on the HVX200?

In the handheld-camera lens adapter market the Letus has the best image quality by a far margin and the best design/build quality. That plus the upcoming Letus Ultimate which will allow the same adapter to be used on either handheld cams or 2/3" inch bodies will make it the only adapter on the planet able to pull off that feat.

The only other adapter that has better build or design quality would be the Mini35 from P+S - just add another $10k to the price and take off 1.5 stops of light (the P+S is darker than Letus).

What does the rumor mill say the pricing on the Ultimate will be? Will it remain at or around $1500?

hi

i own the leuse35 Fe over almost 2 years shoot with it over 100 projects and i think the best camera adaptor comdo is with the Sony-v1

What does the rumor mill say the pricing on the Ultimate will be? Will it remain at or around $1500?

The Ultimate comes in 2 parts; the first module fits the handheld, built-in-lens cameras just as the current Extreme does except it will have a better GG unit and less light loss; the expected price for the Ultimate module 1 is *appx* $5000. The second module is used to connect 2/3" inch cameras to the Ultimate (another high-quality relay lens) it too is expected around $4-5k. Both modules are required to be used together in order to connect to a 2/3" inch body. That's my understanding of it.

The concept here is that you can use the same unit with any camera on the market, 1/3" all the way up to 2/3" inch and for less than half the cost of the P+S Pro35, which is currently the only lens adapter for the 2/3" inch cameras.

On the below page are partner videos for the Panny NAB booth; check out the video link for Letus to watch one of the Le brothers discussing the new Ultimate:

http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/nab2008/index.asp

Can't wait!

So, assuming that those who respond have worked with all of the adapters and speak from firsthand experience - then the general opinion is the Letus35 is #1. Is the Brevis unit then #2 and Redrock #3? While I have never operated one myself - the Brevis sure looks sleek, clean, and easy to operate. The Redrock however was not a good first hand experience for me personally (External battery power would have helped that - unreliable GG shifting in its mount from time to time - it was a rental unit so that may have been the cause i guess). If its the quality control and the optics in the Letus that allows it to surpass the others - this is by what kind of margin? Slight or serious? I really want to know before I spent 2K on equipment. Too hard to earn it in the first place to then turn around throw it away on bad/uniformed choices on my part.

I would also appreciate some suggestions on Follow Focus units for the adapter. Mine will be mounted on a Zacuto system. Despite the issues I experienced with the Redrock Adapter I really liked the Redrock Follow Focus unit - very solid, little play, and a wide gear (which really helps I think) But thats like $700. I saw JBK at Cinegear Expo back in 2006, which was under $500 - is this a good unit?

Zacuto has their own (now revised, Ver 2) FF unit which is one of the best in the industry and has various gears available to be used on literally any setup.

Rental units typically get abused rather than cared for which is why you might have had issues with the M2, however as stated earlier the Letus is superior both in build quality and light transmission.

Thanks for the response Robert. The Zacuto unit is way out of my budget. Any runner ups you would recommend?

I personally have only ever used Arri or Zacuto FF units, so I can't recommend anything based on experience. Considering that Zacuto gives all the "Z"-branded equipment a lifetime warranty I'd buy that over anything else regardless the cost.

Ok Robert - I took your advice and ordered the Letus Extreme this week directly from Zacuto with the Z rail Adapter and 4" rods. I already own the Zacuto baseplate and 12" rods. The Zacuto Follow Focus is still out of my budget but at least I know which direction to head when the time comes. Thanks for your help.

Let us (no pun intended) know how you like the rig!

just realized someone was using this thread to make buying decisions and just wanted to chime in. I get antsy when I see people making claims on the forums about which is adapter is way better than the others because i've owned a lot of them.

Leaving the Letus Ultimate aside which I haven't seen yet but is significantly more expensive ( though it sounds killer.) - I don't think there is a clear ranking between the Letus Extreme, the SGPro and the Brevis.

They all have pros and cons which have been described elsewhere in great detail. I own all three and have also owned a Redrock. The build quality in my opinion is equal between those three. The Letus looks like its build quality is greater but my experience is they are about the same. If anything the SG seems to have fewer complaints but that may be because its a spinner. I wasn't impressed with the Redrock design as much but it seems to have been improved by the flip addition and many people like its more diffused look.

Of the pro's and cons - The Brevis is fastest in low light with f 2.8 lenses. The SG probably has the prettiest look but loses more light, and the Extreme falls in between the 2. All are reasonably fast compared to the Redrock and all 4 look much better with their flip adapter.

They are also all works in progress and changing everyday.

Lenny Levy

just realized someone was using this thread to make buying decisions and just wanted to chime in. I get antsy when I see people making claims on the forums about which is adapter is way better than the others because i've owned a lot of them.

Leaving the Letus Ultimate aside which I haven't seen yet but is significantly more expensive ( though it sounds killer.) - I don't think there is a clear ranking between the Letus Extreme, the SGPro and the Brevis.

They all have pros and cons which have been described elsewhere in great detail. I own all three and have also owned a Redrock. The build quality in my opinion is equal between those three. The Letus looks like its build quality is greater but my experience is they are about the same. If anything the SG seems to have fewer complaints but that may be because its a spinner. I wasn't impressed with the Redrock design as much but it seems to have been improved by the flip addition and many people like its more diffused look.

Of the pro's and cons - The Brevis is fastest in low light with f 2.8 lenses. The SG probably has the prettiest look but loses more light, and the Extreme falls in between the 2. All are reasonably fast compared to the Redrock and all 4 look much better with their flip adapter.

They are also all works in progress and changing everyday.

Lenny Levy

Lenny - which has the least f-stop loss? This is very important for someone who is buying it for use with an HV20/30.

he claims the brevis35 does. If you go with the brevis I'd recommend getting it with the flip adapter. It really improves edge sharpness and reduces CA.