Ok, I liked the way the judging from DVC4 turned out, so I'm going to try it again.

This is how it works...

Everyone who submitted an entry to DVC5 gets to cast a vote for the best films. No, you cannot vote for yourself. Please don't try to follow the current figure skating model of voting (that's a joke people).

Here's what you do:
Watch all the films.
Pick your top 5 favorites based on the criteria of "Reflections" and the use of the city as a backdrop (more details later).
Email me at thedvchallenge@hotmail.com with the subject DVC5 Vote - Your name.
List in order from 1 - 5 the films you think should win. Please give both the name of the filmmaker, and the title of the film.
Done!

"But Dylan," you ask, "there are so many films, how do I possibly decide?"
Here is the system I've used personally for all my DVC judging.
Each time I watch a film I give it two ratings out of 10. One for how well it uses the theme, one for overall production value. I write them down in order as I go, and if I find that they stack up better or worse to other films, I move their points up and down a little bit.

For example:
________Theme/Story ______ Production
Film A________9_____________ 9.5
Film B________8______________9
Film C________7______________7
Film D________5______________7
Film E________8______________3


By the end I find I have a list that represents fairly accurately what I would have chosen anyway, and no films get forgotten. I will go back and rewatch my top 5 just to make sure they are as I remember them.

Dylan, is there a deadline for submitting the votes?

Hmm, I think 5 to 7 days after the last film is posted.

Dylan,

I couldn't find them but my page was cached. I found them.

Just curious: will all the films be posted before Thursday, the 20th? I'm leaving for the NAB, and I'm not sure if I'll have the proper internet access to download and make the final vote.

Yes. They will all be out by this Monday, Tuesday at latest.

Yes. They will all be out by this Monday, Tuesday at latest.

I notice that 4 more were posted this morning, making the total 24. Is this all of them? If there are others, will they be posted today or tomorrow?

Thanks much!
Bill

There are definitly more because mine hasn't been posted yet. How is the order they are posted decided (out of curiosity)?

Well, there are definitely more. They must be posting at random because I submitted mine a week before the deadline and it's still not posted. <sigh>

yeah, that's what I thought too because I submitted mine well before the deadline as well.

My bad. There is one more day. The final 4 films will be posted tomorrow. Sorry for the scare.

And with half a dozen exceptions, they are posted exactly as they arrived in my inbox. First come first served. The exceptions are mostly people who sent bad links, no links, or updated their stuff at the last minute.

So do our votes decide the winner or give you a top 5 to pick a winner from?

So do our votes decide the winner or give you a top 5 to pick a winner from?

Your votes decide the winner. I get a vote as well but it is equal to everyone elses.

Giving time for the rest of the votes to get their choices in. Results will be after I get back from NAB.

Cheers!

Hurry up this Video iPod on my desk is getting lonely :)

I was hoping everyone would forget and I'd get to keep it. :)

Just got home from NAB a couple hours ago. Will sleep tonight and announce the winner tomorrow!

I'll get my results in to you guys this weekend. Family emergencies...

Sean McHenry

I have 20 votes in so far. I'll extend the voting deadline until SATURDAY NIGHT!!!

Sean, get them in!

Wondering WHICH Saturday night? :)

are you trying to say that i've been up for the last 8 hours hitting the refresh button for nothing?

That is hilarious Michael!

Glad to know I'm not the only one afflicted with this condition.

Mugurel: I believe that was last night.

Best Wishes~
Bradley

I HOPE it was last night! The suspense is KILLING me!!

Tallying the last votes right now. Don't go anywhere for 30 mins. :)

I'm just wondering if it would be possible next time to have an outside (outside of the contest, maybe outside of the board) panel of several judges for the contest? Been thinking about it, and I think that would be a good idea if it'd be possible.

Also it'd be cool to see a little more structure to the judging criteria. I know it's always going to be somewhat subjective because we're dealing with art here, but it'd be nice to see it be more structured and have a better breakdown with what to shoot for, and be able to see on paper what we did wrong or right in comparison to the other films.

I think that it would help the contest be more accessible to people who are newer to the contest and don't have the same recognition as the regulars. It would also help with the issue of when to release the films and how that affects the voting process. I think it's kind of a logical step for the contest to continue to mature and grow (if that's the goal).

Just my two cents - keep them or spend them.

Philip, the first 3 were judged by 5 hand picked DVinfo moderators.

I got one good idea from your suggestions though, and I get your vibe. For the next DVC, if we do the same type of judging, we could keep everyone's name off their films. Unless we go back to non-competitor judging.

On the other hand, I've toyed with total outsider judging as well.

Either way, for the next I will provide a stricter formula for scoring points. Although to be honest that kind of gets away from what I wanted the challenge to be about. I'm sure there is a happy medium.

I guess I don't get it. Of the top five this challenge, only one was what could be considered a "regular" with name recognition. That's pretty cool, and as Dick Mays said, showed that folks here don't judge based on stuff like that. And if anyone feels intimidated or left out of the fun, I'd be surprised, because the minute folks sign up they are a "regular" if they choose to get involved in that way. The easy-going nature of this challenge keeps it inviting, in my opinion.

to be honest that kind of gets away from what I wanted the challenge to be about.
Stay close to what you wanted the challenge to be about, Dylan. It works!

I didn't feel any sort of bad vibe or that I was an outsider. it was my first "short film", my first DVC and I cracked the top 5. hmmmm, that kind of makes it seem like the winner didn't have much competition...didn't intend that. anyway, I loved it. Plan on doing the next one. I learned a lot. Some had some time consuming special effects and others just had me outgunned and a couple I couldn't figure out how they did certain things. I shot on a DVC30 and edited the whole thing on a laptop. Even with all of that stacked up against me, I still did pretty good.

I don't feel like it was a bad experience at all, and maybe the people that won are newer than I realized, so on that I stand corrected (I'm new so I don't really know).

I guess one thing that felt weird was posting comments about other films and knowing that those people would be turning around and voting (or not) for my own film... I guess I just felt like it might be a cleaner contest if the people deciding the final results were outside of the comment loop, or something --

Maybe Dylan's idea of not posting the names is a good idea -- it keeps it from getting complicated and too much work, and adds some anonymity (sp?) to it.

Again, I have no hard feelings towards anyone for winning or voting or whatever -- it was a good experience and I'm glad I took part in it. I don't want to be a pain or get anybody mad at me, I'm just trying to give some honest feedback to the process, that's all.

pretty much i second what lorinda said. signing up and completing one of these pretty much makes you an insider. it's the nature of the thing. by participating, we get to know each other a bit better through our work. it's one of the great things about the DVC, unlike other contests or film festivals, where the field changes. we get to see the growth in our craft, not just the outcomes. it's unique that way. but i don't think insider/outsider status is determined by anything other than finishing. and even a boisterous wall of shamer like mike teutsch pretty much qualifies as an insider....

i think, if there *is* a bias, it is not towards "who," it is towards "what." it's towards Hollywood-styled narrative and away from experimental or documentary or any other genre. i am as guilty as anyone in purveying this bias, because, like the whole world, i prefer to be entertained rather than educated or challenged, and my top picks probably reflected that bias as much as anyone's.

i think weighing judge input a little heavier than participant input may be able to balance this out. of course, the judges may share this bias, so that idea may be out the window....

that's my perception, though, and it's not intended to take anything from bill, whose film i loved and voted among my top picks and who is a deserving winner. just an observation. i'm not sure anything needs to change around it. unless i collaborate with someone, one of these days, i'm not likely to make a Hollywood-styled narrative. but i always have that option and that choice.

but unusual outsider films that are so much more moi! who'd wanna give that up??

I am new to this forum and DVC. I did enter the December one, but circumstances prevented me from participation. I have no problems with this format and feel like I've gotten to know some people. I've learned that this group works with and is patient with all levels of entries and has no problem with helping and giving constructive criticism. In my circumstances, I enjoy learning the craft, but would never be able to go to film school. My "real" life and obligations prevent that. I am happy to have an outlet to learn from !!! I really wouldn't do this to win some prize- I would do it because I enjoy it, and I enjoy seeing what others come up with. Carry on. When do we do the next one ??

Personally, I would like to see a permanent or semi-permanent panel of judges rather than the entrants getting one vote each. It would make for more consistent judging.

As far as not posting names, you could not even post film titles, just a number 1 through......whatever, perhaps by the date and time received. After all, once you get to see the film you will have the title and all. It will not keep them anonymous though, because they can be ID'ed by the website, style, and maybe those who appear in them.

Having a judging panel would also allow the movies to be seen by those who need to, before the bandwidth is exceeded. I never did see two of the movies in this contest, because each time I tried their bandwidth had been used up. With a judging panel this would probably not happen until the judging had been completed.

One last suggestion, if at all possible, entrants should try to get their own webhosts or websites to post their movies on. There are some good bargains out there that do not cost that much. Bought by the year, some run about $50/year. Not that much of an investment for the ease and convince they would give you. You can of course put other things on them, like your own personalized website, and you know you all want one!!!!!!!! The hoops that we have to jump through to see some of the films make it very tough. If possible also, post them so that they can be downloaded, instead of having to view it directly from the host. The judges especially need to download them for further viewing, as the judging progresses.

I like the contest and the way it is run, so keep it going, Dylan is the MAN! Remember that for the next vote Dylan! :)

Mike

Here are my 2 cents. As some have noted, this was my first DVC entry and I certainly don't consider myself an "old-timer" here.

I like having a large number of people judge. If you have 2 or 3 judges, then each individual judge's preferences carry a lot of weight. If you can find 7 or 9 independent judges, then great, but having only a couple judges would be too few in my humble opinion. I'd rather have the 30 entrants judge than have only 2-3 independent people judge.

I would very much like to get independent, anonymous, constructive feedback, and to be able to give similar feedback without any concern that it would possibly affect the judging. I did feel like the feedback in the threads was very positive (even to the point of being overly so, sometimes) for the huge majority of the films. While everybody should be commended for entering, constructive feedback can be very valuable. Each and every film had areas of strength and areas where improvements could be made, and being able to give and receive that feedback could be helpful to folks improving their films in the future.

If people were interested, I would be happy to anonymously collect feedback from entrants for the next DVC, edit them appropriately (to remove any "this sucked" feedback or "you're a god" feedback), and provide the feedback privately only to each film's creator so that folks would feel comfortable providing honest, specific feedback without worrying about whether or not that might influence the judging. If folks are concerned about me personally doing this, I'd be happy to remove myself from possible judging. Or perhaps somebody else with the inclination and interest who is not specifically involved could be found.

I'd love to see the whole viewing and judging thing take less time. Maybe all the films get released in 3-4 days and then the judges have to provide feedback in 3-5 days?

Finally, I'd prefer to see the films released in some random order, though this may be a lot to ask of Dylan. I was concerned that my film might have been unfairly negatively affected by being the very first entry, though given the outcome, perhaps my film was unfairly positively affected by being the very first entry... :)

As with the others, these are just my thoughts and you can take em or leave em. I think overall it is a great contest and I'd hate to see anything fundamentally affect the character of the contest.

Bill

It never occured to me that how people voted for me could be affected by how I critiqued their film. Perhaps because we're all so much in this for the fun and experience that just didn't enter my mind.

I did noticed that a few films I voted for didn't make the finalists list and my first thought was that different people must have had different criteria for voting. Though I suppose it's possible that they had the same criteria just different opinions. As long as we're all just in it for the fun then it doesn't really matter. We do run the risk though that the cooler the prizes get the more people will be actually trying to win. And if that's your goal you would want to know what you're being judged on before you started shooting. Fortunately for me my goal was to practice with new gear, but being a naturally competitive person even with stupid things like co-ed rec softball, I do see the point.

Certainly a good story, well acted and well produced ought to end up the winner (as it did this time), but given a limited amount of time and resources will a great story moderately executed do better than a mediocre story well executed? If I'm giving myself a $100 budget do I spend it on some home depot lights, or a plug in for my editing system? If I'm recruiting a writer should I aim for my funny friend or my dramatic friend. Etc, etc. I'm not expecting an answer to these questions, just pointing out that someone with a goal toward winning should be asking themselves who is my audience and what do they want?

For me I'll be signing up for 6 with an eye toward editing. I'm in a class all this week learning all sorts of complicated stuff that I don't really need for talking head videos of conservatory students. Look out!

It's the best Film challenge on the Internet!

I've looked at ALL of them.

I was MORTIFIED to watch the top two finalist for the Amazon/Tribeca Short Competition bash each other for weeks to try to win $50K.

It ain't about winning, it's about helping each other become better film makers.

The vast majority of us try to give each other constructive criticism, pointing out the many things we LIKE about the films, and throwing in one or two remarks about what might be ADDED to make the next entry better. I've learned a lot by reading the critiques and watching these entries. Much better stuff than the majority of the festivals.

In most contests, you don't get the constructive feedback, which is what I love the most about this contest. Here was my entry in the Amazon competition. It was the first short I ever made and I could have used some advice. www.theatre4film.com/Daytona.wmv

I had lighting mistakes, some audio issues, and could have used better shot composition.

Okay, maybe that stuff about "it an't about the winnng is a little off. I plan to get me a Mike Teutsch dolly, throw in some tracking shots, cut my dialog heavy shorts into more action moving stories, and WIN the next one!

I love "The DV Challenge" just the way it is.

<<It ain't about winning, it's about helping each other become better film makers.>>

Dick, so help me, you're a wise man. You've summed it up. Succinctly. Perfectly.

Dick, so help me, you're a wise man. You've summed it up. Succinctly. Perfectly.

Thanks Hugh! I've never been called a "wise man" before. :)