Earlier tonight I happened upon some posts on another camera board and realized because so little has been said about the Texas Shootout, people are starting to jump to their own conclusions about what happened based on a few posts from Mike Curtis on HD for Indies. Chris encouraged us Shootout helpers to speak our mind(s) in the announcement thread, so to that end...

Before I get to my real point though, I'd first like to express just how thoroughly I enjoyed being a part of such a unbiased, hard-working group of people gathered together for one cause...to try to get to the bottom of all the speculation and FUD that unfortunately surrounds the act of trying to educate oneself about HD cameras on the internet. To Adam, Chris, Mike C., Li, Boyd, Greg, Pete, Zane, Mike D., and everybody else present, I say thank you for making our work pleasant, productive, and most importantly in our case, without bias.

So here's why I'm posting: I'd like to pass along the one thing that we started learning very early in the tests, and that eventually became the "one truth". It's very simple, but people will argue against that truth in ridiculous Ford vs. Chevy arguments now and well after the test results are published:

There is no "best" camera.

For some this is going to be a huge letdown. It's a "shootout", afterall, right? Were we not to find and declare a winner? In some ways I am letting the cat out of the bag long before the official release of our results. For this I hope Chris doesn't deport me to some VBulletin limbo, but I felt something had to be said. We predicted going in that people will be able to use our data to support their current beliefs about each camera or issue, or worse, use the data as ammunition to further their crusades to convince the unwashed masses that their choice of camera is the one true choice (boy, I sure made that sound scary!)...but I certainly hope that will not happen too much.

I'd give my opinions about each camera here, but I really don't wish this thread to be about discussing that. If anything, I'd wish this thread to be a jumping off point for the idea that there is no best camera...there is only the best camera for YOU*...an idea that gets tossed around from time to time, but doesn't get nearly enough thought when it counts.




*(...and heck, sometimes not even THAT).

Thanks Nate. But I was wondering....While there may not be a "best camera" for all, there surely must be a "favored camera" for the Indie filmmaker, the documentary maker, the event recorder, etc.,etc. No? This is not to say that certain cameras CAN NOT be used for certain types of HD artist, but surely one has an image type, and a work style, that lends itself to one form of filmmaking over another. No?

Well the whole idea of the shootout was to gather data and present it in an objective format so that you can make that determination. There are so many variables that affect camera choice, in the end it's going to have to be a personal decision based on your own preference.

I think Nate was saying that no one camera immediately rose above the pack as a "winner," and none of them were clear "losers" either, and I also share his sentiments.

BTW Nate, I really enjoyed meeting and working with you on this - sorry I had to leave early. I was very impressed by the way you kept things organized and moving along on (or even ahead of) schedule. Nice job!

I would be happy, if you could say, "Camera A was a good effort, but the manufacturer really fell short here...", or, "Camera B was all around well thought out, except for the battery...". Or more importantly, "Camera C is capable of getting a great image, however, there is no supprted workflow to get that great image...". You know, the REAL important stuff, that will save me from spending several thousand I really can't afford, on a camera I end up really hating.

Well there certainly will be that element to the official write-ups, because each camera has its good points and not-so-good points. But as far as one that's better than the others for, say, the indie filmmaker, then I'd have to say no you really can't look at it that way. Camcorders are kind of like guitars in that regard. Is the Fender Telecaster better than the Gretsch Country Gentleman for playing rockabilly? I've seen artists who use both, and ultimately it's not the guitar that affects the quality of the music it produces so much as the talent of the person playing it. Choosing an HD camera is like choosing a guitar, it's not a question of what you're doing with it so much as it is a personal preference, and "try before you buy" is just as important.

We did the shootout in order to offer up all of the data in a packaged form which interested folks can study and use to draw their own conclusions. That's the idea.

As long as the report is not just RAW DATA, and includes some type of subjectivity, then I think it would be very useful for most people (since many of us are not that technically savy.)

I'll go ahead and plug that I will be interested in the data that leans towards event videography. I.e. Weddings and such. So if anyone wants to write up some 100 page conclusion just for me that'd be great.................that was a joke. (I've learned that I have to tell when I'm joking on this board)

Either way cudos to those who are doing this.

Chris- The "Try before you buy" theory is great, if you can do it. However, not everyone is able to swing by B&H to do this. The closest thing I have to a Pro camera store is Best Buy... so I'm out of luck. However, there is a lot of things that might not be obvious when handling one of thes cams in a store. Stuff like the fact you can't get 3 out of 5 of this camera's features to work when capturing.

The big downfalls of these new cams are what interests me, since the imagry is supposedly very close. As I mentioned before, the DV Magazine's article had these guys shooting next to two of the best cams, and they were pretty close. So it is the usability factor that will help me decide what to buy.

And if you aren't brutally honest about the manufacturer's failings, how will they ever learn?

Chris- The "Try before you buy" theory is great, if you can do it.Well that was a big motivation for the shootout, for those folks who are not in a position to try before they buy. We wanted to offer them something that might give them some data to go on.

Well that was a big motivation for the shootout, for those folks who are not in a position to try before they buy. .

That would be me, because for the life of me, the only place I can find a Z1u is in New York. Sad really.

Not that I've had a chance to play with all the cameras, but to me they definitely seem to be of the same average quality, with each camera having it's own advantages and disadvantages. I think its kind of entertaining to see people go on and on how HDV will destroy your picture, how the HVX is the noisiest thing ever, etc. If details that small are show stoppers, you shouldn't be shooting on a camera of this level - step up to the big leagues.

However, clearly the Fender Telecaster is the superior guitar.

Thanks Nate. But I was wondering....While there may not be a "best camera" for all, there surely must be a "favored camera" for the Indie filmmaker, the documentary maker, the event recorder, etc.,etc. No?

Some people think the JVC has bad motion rendering, a horrible lens, and flaw with the imager that's unacceptable. To me, it's the camera I've been waiting for for 20 years. You simply can't slap labels on these things.

The "Try before you buy" theory is great, if you can do it.

Believe me, it's in your best interest to go out of your way to do so. $800 spent on a trip to B&H in NYC might be the smartest money you spend in your gear purchase.

I'd give my opinions about each camera here, but I really don't wish this thread to be about discussing that. If anything, I'd wish this thread to be a jumping off point for the idea that there is no best camera...there is only the best camera for YOU*...an idea that gets tossed around from time to time, but doesn't get nearly enough thought when it counts.

When I compared the four main sub-$10K HD cameras back in February, one of my main conclusions was that differences between the cameras in terms of how they work was at least as important as anything else in trying to pick between them. Without going into the differences for specific cameras again, suffice it to say that if you know what your priorities are it's fairly easy to pick and choose based on price, form factor, recording format and so on. None of these cameras is perfect for everyone and none of them is a total stinker, so use what works for you and enjoy it.

However, clearly the Fender Telecaster is the superior guitar.

And the volume knob on the best amplifiers goes to 11, right? ;-)

[That's a "Spinal Tap" reference, for those who haven't seen the movie.]

Well there certainly will be that element to the official write-ups, because each camera has its good points and not-so-good points. But as far as one that's better than the others for, say, the indie filmmaker, then I'd have to say no you really can't look at it that way. Camcorders are kind of like guitars in that regard. Is the Fender Telecaster better than the Gretsch Country Gentleman for playing rockabilly? I've seen artists who use both, and ultimately it's not the guitar that affects the quality of the music it produces so much as the talent of the person playing it. Choosing an HD camera is like choosing a guitar, it's not a question of what you're doing with it so much as it is a personal preference, and "try before you buy" is just as important.

We did the shootout in order to offer up all of the data in a packaged form which interested folks can study and use to draw their own conclusions. That's the idea.

Being a guitar player, I can relate to Chris' analogy. The biggest thing about guitars is that they often have a distinctive 'tonal quality' about them. I can pick out a Fender strat every time I hear it because it's unique. So to that end, I might pick the Strat if I wanted a song to have a certain feel.

But my car analogy would be more like several different makes in the same category (ie pickup, suv, sedan). Each car is capable of its mission but gets there in a slightly different way from a design standpoint. So at that point, it gets back to little things like ergonomics, appearance, and small but useful features that appeal to YOU the buyer.

Just as with cars, some will have options available that the others don't. So you have to look at how you would be driving that car on a daily basis and decide if the above mentioned items are in synergy with your needs and expectaions.

Now, I would also like to add my personal thoughts...

I feel like we assembled one of the most professional, hard working, and good natured bunch I have been around in a while. Here's another little kicker. Pretty much everyone came there at their own expense. That means they were there because they 'believed' in the project, not because their pockets were being lined.

We had fun, but got our work done in the process. I wouldn't hesitate to show up and help anyone of these folks in the future should the need arise.

We should also give a big, hearty thanks to Omega Broadcast. These guys were all about being helpful anytime we needed it. Also, our new sponsor Tapeworks Texas sent Scott Cantrell with a Sony F350 and let me tell you, Scott is a great guy and helped out any way he could. So please, give them your business if possible. Mike Curtis of HD for Indies managed a herculean effort to get that much 'ingest' power in the same place and time.

regards,

-gb-

However, there is a lot of things that might not be obvious when handling one of thes cams in a store. Stuff like the fact you can't get 3 out of 5 of this camera's features to work when capturing.

Well actually, that's what the DVinfo forums are all about. Just read through any any of the forums and you find lots of discussion of usability. But the shootout was a chance to go beyond the subjective part and, under Adam's supervision, put each camera through a "torture test" and collect data for later analysis.

I also have to agree... if you're going to spend thousands on a camera then a trip to NYC would really be worth your while. Most people know somebody with a spare couch somewhere within a commuting radius ;-) Or make it a vacation, take the family to a Broadway show! If nothing else, just experiencing B&H is something you must do someday.

If and when I happen to be up that way, I will definately stop in. At this point, it ain't gonna happen. Getting ready to buy a new house, car, equipment, etc., and the cash for a trip isn't there. That is why I'm reading all these posts again and again :)

However, clearly the Fender Telecaster is the superior guitar.

Pre- or Post-CBS?

Some people think the JVC has bad motion rendering, a horrible lens, and flaw with the imager that's unacceptable.

That's what kept me from getting the HD-100. Well that and crappy Final Cut support.

Originally.

BUT NOW I'm sitting here with a HVX-200 AND a HD-100. The HVX is going to go - but not because it's horrible. Actually, it produces some very pretty stuff. I think both cameras can "outpicture" the other camera in different instances. In the end it came down to the reality that the JVC feels better in my hands and I like shooting it more. I'm left eye dominant and I could easily move the viewfinder over. I'm much faster at focusing it. My background is more 35mm still cameras. A DVX user might feel the EXACT OPPOSITE. And I hope he buys mine. :-)

Really, it IS like guitars AND cars... as a guitar player myself I know you can sit in the store and play 50 of them and like 2. The next guy over will like 2 also - but not the same 2 you like.

@Kevin
(If you rent the $8K lens for the HD-100 it goes to 11)

(If you rent the $8K lens for the HD-100 it goes to 11)

Indeed it does. Our charts from the shootout will illustrate.

Indeed it does. Our charts from the shootout will illustrate.

I'm glad you were there Nate. One thing I learned from my own testing is how easy it is to change a couple settings and really alter picture quality on both cameras.

When I see a shootout like this I now think to myself "do these guys really know each of these cameras well enough to squeeze the best out of them?". Sounds like you guys had good representation for all the cameras.

I think your point is well taken that each person needs to make a decision based on their projects, current equipment etc. etc.. I for one like have solid data and impartial (as far as it can go) impressions of the different products to base my purchase decisions on. There's plenty of marketing hype out there to support the different factions.

I'm looking forward to seeing how everything stacks up and I'm glad that the post workflow is part of the consideration. I was curious though on the fact that the test video appears to be based on the uncompressed live output from the camera rather than off of the recording media of each. While in some cases, that's a great option to have, I can see most of the time, raw video will be ingested via the tape/DVD/card. Am I right about this aspect of the test?

I'll also be interested to see how the NLE companies respond to the different formats, I guess NAB will help tell that story. I'm especially interested to see how Avid works with these cameras. I can see Mike Curtis will have the FCP crowd well covered.

Finally, add my name to the list of people appreciative for the time ande effort the whole team put into this. It's a much needed resource for our whole community.

Jay Lee
Lee Media Group

I was curious though on the fact that the test video appears to be based on the uncompressed live output from the camera rather than off of the recording media of each.Hi Jay,

Actually we did BOTH. Adam and I were very keen on looking at the native recordings of each camera so he has the original dumps from the HDV cassettes, P2 cards and XDCAM discs. Mike Curtis handled the uncompressed capture portion. Remember this was a three-way deal between Adam Wilt, DV Info Net and HD For Indies and we structured it so that everyone's goals would be satisfied. You're hearing about the uncompressed stuff because that's what Mike is blogging about on his site, that part of our shootout was his baby. But rest assured that another primary goal was to do this with the native recording media too, and we certainly did that. It's just not part of what Mike is covering. In typical uber-blogger fashion, Mike has proceeded full speed ahead with his own feedback so that's what you're hearing about right now. Adam will be closely examining the native recording media and that will be the primary thrust of his print article coming soon for DV Magazine. Lots of entities involved in this thing, it was as comprehensive as we could make it.

Thanks for your nice comments, they're much appreciated! Hope this helps,

So, did you have a "video villiage", like the DV mag's shootout? That was quite a collection of equipment, and must have felt like being a kid in a candy store.

Pre- or Post-CBS?

I think we are probably straying a bit off topic, but definitely pre-CBS... Though some of the new stuff isn't too bad (Custom shop, etc). I

So, did you have a "video villiage", like the DV mag's shootout? That was quite a collection of equipment, and must have felt like being a kid in a candy store.

More like 'video city'. And just being in the well equipped Omega Studio facility was like being in a candy store. ;-)

-gb-

Just out of curiosity (and the fact I'm too lazy to look right now!), how did they capture the uncompressed out of the HD100?

That's a Mike Curtis question, I think he covered that on his blog, if I can find the exact entry then I'll post the link here. Have you read through all of his stuff? I linked to most of them in the other Shootout thread in this forum.

Well, I kinda know too because I did all the connecting :-) Mike was the connector oversee-er, I was the connector labor :-)

The HD100 was connected to a Mac G5 with a Kona2 (or 3) card via component and an AJA HD-10A analog to HD-SDI converter.

More like 'video city'. And just being in the well equipped Omega Studio facility was like being in a candy store. ;-)

-gb-

We had exactly 6x the amount of capture hardware the Burbank test had.

I've read pretty much all the HD100 threads here, and a few at DVXusers too, plus the DV mag article. I'm curious about capture processes, and the equipment used. There are likely to be several different ways of doing it, right? Each one a little different than the last? The XL-H1 has the SDI out, with no audio, so you need to use a seperate process to capture that. The HD100 only has composite out, no SDI. But there have been conflicting reports about what you can get with out of it.

Audio was *not* part of what we did... to do justice to the audio portion of these cameras, that would require another extended weekend. We weren't concerned about the lack of audio over SDI from the Canon H1 because audio simply wasn't on our agenda. Audio is far too important to cram into our video comparison, it really needs its own separate study.

Please look over Mike's blog, Keith, all of the capture details are there. As Nate points out, the uncompressed captures came in via SDI where available from the cameras (VariCam, F350, XL H1) and analog component from those that did not have SDI (HVX200, HD100, Z1U).

The HD100 only has composite out, no SDI. But there have been conflicting reports about what you can get with out of it.

You have component out, SD firewire, and HDV firewire. Component out can capture all frame rates, however component out is required for capturing 720p at 60fps, the lower frame rates of 24 and 30 can be captured via firewire. I brought back the HD100 with me to return to the JVC rep. While I had the camera, I shot some footage at 720 30p, captured using an app called A/V Capture (osx), and took the resulting .M2T file and put it in MPEG Streamclip. Lifted some nice stills out of Streamclip in .TIFF format.

-gb-

I did check out Mike's blog, and got a little lost with the 1:1:1:2 pattern, but followed the rest ok. As far as audio, I suppose that isn't that big an issue right now.
And thanks Greg for putting me straight.

There's something like five or six different Texas Shootout entries on Mike's blog. I think you saw only the most recent one. Links to all the rest are in the other thread.

Backtracking now.

So, did you have a "video villiage", like the DV mag's shootout?
We had exactly 6x the amount of capture hardware the Burbank test had.
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(Don't expect these links to work forever since this was just a temporary place to dump some frame grabs)

Yep... need a bigger studio.

Chris, thanks for clearing that up about the live vs. media capture. Good news fer sure.

Did the JVC HD100 get tested with an alternate lens than the stock one? If so, I'll be really interested to see what impact that has. I know on my old timer DV500, it's a huge difference.

Now there's yet another test, taking the cameras that have "real" lenses (gonna get flamed for that one!) like the XDCAM HD, XL H1 and HD100 and seeing what that does to the image quality, sensitivity and resolution.

I'll be happy to do that one, can you send me one of each with an assortment of lenses?


heh.....

They say the 13x lens gets you a cleaner image overall, as compared to the stock lens.

Yes we had both the stock 16x and wide 13x Fuji lenses for the HD100. Adam shot Chroma Dumonde and Multiburst charts with both. Several set-ups both indoors and outdoors were shot with the wide 13x.

Just to mess with the HD100 love fest currently taking place...

XLH1 Baby!!!!!

Is there an official write up of the shootout somewhere, or is that yet to come?

Is there an official write up of the shootout somewhere, or is that yet to come?

It is, as you say, "yet to come". Since we did this too close to NAB, everyone involved was busy getting ready for that show. Now that NAB is over, the data will be compiled and presented by Adam Wilt in future articles. There is talk of putting the video on a DVD (including some behind the scenes segments) but nothing finalized yet in that regard.

regards,

-gb-

It is, as you say, "yet to come". Since we did this too close to NAB, everyone involved was busy getting ready for that show. Now that NAB is over, the data will be compiled and presented by Adam Wilt in future articles. There is talk of putting the video on a DVD (including some behind the scenes segments) but nothing finalized yet in that regard.

regards,

-gb-


Will the writeup have good looking models holding the cameras?

I like to think of camcorders like toilet paper. Some people like the quilted variety because it feels soft, and looks nice. Some people like the rough stuff cause it's cheap and gets the job done. Some people need eco friendly stuff cause their septic can't handle the regular stuff.

They all do the same job, but their are nuances that make them special to their individual owners. And the likelihood of a rough stuff guy enjoying quilted, or vice versa is probably slim. I'm sure that they could argue til the end of time why one is better than the other. But the end result is what you want to feel against your own buns, and the hit you're willing to take in your wallet to achieve that feeling.

But if you talking TP in the same price range, its still only about the individual needs.

I like to think of camcorders like toilet paper. Some people like the quilted variety because it feels soft, and looks nice. Some people like the rough stuff cause it's cheap and gets the job done. Some people need eco friendly stuff cause their septic can't handle the regular stuff.

They all do the same job, but their are nuances that make them special to their individual owners. And the likelihood of a rough stuff guy enjoying quilted, or vice versa is probably slim. I'm sure that they could argue til the end of time why one is better than the other. But the end result is what you want to feel against your own buns, and the hit you're willing to take in your wallet to achieve that feeling.

But if you talking TP in the same price range, its still only about the individual needs.

Extremely insightful Fred :p

Will the writeup have good looking models holding the cameras?

No, they were in front of the cameras. ;-)

-gb-

It is, as you say, "yet to come". Since we did this too close to NAB, everyone involved was busy getting ready for that show. Now that NAB is over, the data will be compiled and presented by Adam Wilt in future articles. There is talk of putting the video on a DVD (including some behind the scenes segments) but nothing finalized yet in that regard.

regards,

-gb-

Am I right in assuming the story will be posted here or a link to it? Or is it appearing in a magazine?

Am I right in assuming the story will be posted here or a link to it? Or is it appearing in a magazine?

I believe DV Magazine authorized an article by Adam Wilt on the Texas HD Shootout. Some of the material will be on Adam's own website, and on Mike Curtis' HD for Indies website. Some material may appear here but I suspect it will be linked from here.

Hopefully Chris H. will chime in and further explain the timeline and delivery methods.

-gb-