Howdy from Texas,

Starting today, powerful forces are converging on Austin, Texas for a four-day round up of all the major HD camcorders you guys like to discuss so much around here.

Adam Wilt of DV Magazine, Mike Curtis of the popular "HD For Indies" mega-blog, and elements of the DV Info Net team will convene in a series of studio and location camera tests in a variety of different situations. Everything will be recorded, of course, and the plan is to offer feedback to interested parties through Adam's articles for DV Magazine, Mike's online journal at HD For Indies, and right here on our message boards at DV Info Net.

The camera line-up includes the Panasonic AG-HVX200 DVCPRO HD P2 camcorder, the Canon XL H1, JVC GY-HD100 "A" with 16x and 13x lenses, and Sony HVR-Z1U HDV camcorders, and the Sony PDW-F350 XDCAM HD camcorder. Plus we'll also have a Panasonic AJ-HDC27 "H" VariCam DVCPRO HD camcorder for reference.

Adam is our technical lead and will be directing with Nate Weaver assisting. Mike is co-directing and managing a truckload of uncompressed capture stations, and DV Info Net regulars Boyd Ostroff, Greg Boston, Pete Bauer and Mike Devlin are lending a hand with all of the cameras and other production requirements. There are a lot of other folks involved who are helping out in several capacities. I can't wait to tell you more about them. We'll keep you guys advised on how this is going day by day.

Meanwhile, although I can't promise this will happen, I'd like to encourage any Austin area members who might be up for dinner and drinks on Friday or Saturday night to please shoot me a private email. Our crew is already talking about going long, so a public get-together might not actually happen, but let me know at least if you're interested and if we can pull it off then we'll manage that by email. Hopefully we can get some Shiner Bock flowing.

Updates follow as this thing progresses -- and be sure to also watch for Mike's entries over at his site, http://www.hdforindies.com.

And now it's been posted on Mike's blog, although at present it's just a copy of my announcement above. Keep an eye on it though, as Mike will be reporting his end of things in addition to what goes on here.

Chris: this is good news! In addition to any standard resolution tests, etc., can you arrange to get some "real world" footage of the same scenes taken at the same time under the same conditions? I tried to do this in Sacramento back in February, but didn't have the time or resources to get very far with it. An example of my results is here:

http://www.videomem.com/camera_comparison/2006-02-15/index.html

Definitely interested in how these cameras perform under dim lighting conditions, and what settings work best with each one for that.

Chris: this is good news! In addition to any standard resolution tests, etc., can you arrange to get some "real world" footage of the same scenes taken at the same time under the same conditions? I tried to do this in Sacramento back in February, but didn't have the time or resources to get very far with it. An example of my results is here:

http://www.videomem.com/camera_comparison/2006-02-15/index.html

Definitely interested in how these cameras perform under dim lighting conditions, and what settings work best with each one for that.


Kevin:

Great comparison shots.

Question: What was with the JVC HD100U--- seemed awful washed out. Was there a setting problem on that cam ?

I'd love to see how it compares.

www.reel-stream.com

I don't know how others feel but I would be willing to make a donation to help offset the cost of this test.

Chris, where on DVinfo might we access the results? This page?
Once again, thanks for the fantastic resources that you're providing.

Among all the activities taking place, I will be shooting some behind the scenes stuff with the Canon Xl-2. We may also include some reference shots with the XL-2 so you can see how well it stacks up when uprezzed.

It's going to be a busy weekend but a very productive one. I may test out some daily video uploads to DV-INFO servers so you guys can get a daily 'highlights reel' if time permits.

-gb-

Greg, that's a great idea. I have in the past uprezed XL2 footage- albeit in a quite unorthodox manner- and the results were excellent- leaving a TIFF image sequence in 1280X720 4:4:4 16 bit for ingest to the codec of choice for effect work, etc . In fact I had thought about asking our "shootout" shooters to consider including this option but didn't have the heart since their workload seems quite heavy.
Greg, which method did you use to uprez the XL2 footage?

I would be another one who would like to see a comparison with some uprezzed XL2 footage. Please include that if at all possible!

If we can work in a side-by with the XL2 then we'll try... but to be fair we should do this with the DVX & HVX, etc. Lots to do and very little time, but we've got some make-up hours on Sunday afternoon that will be devoted to getting stuff we might have missed. Craig Chartier told me we should do a macro test. Plenty of great ideas but only a couple of days to get everything done.

I don't know how Mike Curtis can do it, but after putting in an 18 hour day he still finds time to write about everything. See his notes about Day Zero (Thursday) and Day One (Friday) on HD For Indies:

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/04/texas-shootout-day-one-of-shooting

And some of his photos of this event:

http://web.mac.com/mikedcurtis/iWeb/Site/BestOfTxShootOutDayOne.html

My photos probably won't go up until I'm back in the office next Tuesday.

I don't know how Mike Curtis can do it, but after putting in an 18 hour day he still finds time to write about everything. See his notes about Day Zero (Thursday) and Day One (Friday) on HD For Indies:

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/04/texas-shootout-day-one-of-shooting

And some of his photos of this event:

http://web.mac.com/mikedcurtis/iWeb/Site/BestOfTxShootOutDayOne.html

My photos probably won't go up until I'm back in the office next Tuesday.

I also edited down the behind the scenes video that was shot yesterday. Will upload when time permits.

-gb-

Coo-hoo-hool!

Camera shootouts are always fun!

have u tested A1u..i want to see how a1 can compete with xlh1

this is hc1 footage
canopus hq codec... upsize to 1920...


http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/pds/canopus.avi

have u tested A1u..i want to see how a1 can compete with xlh1

this is hc1 footage
canopus hq codec... upsize to 1920...


http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/pds/canopus.avi

Jung,

Unfortunately, the A1u is not included in this test.

-gb-

Hey Everyone,

LONG but very fun couple of days of shooting so far. I'm exhausted, as I'm sure everyone else at the Shootout is, so this will be very short. But wanted to say that our fearless leaders guided us on schedule -- or even a little ahead -- through a demanding shooting schedule today that included fair-skinned and dark-skinned talent in front of the green screen, and two male martial arts experts doing their best to stress the codecs.

It is a real privelege to try out all these fancy HD cameras, and an even greater honor to meet and work with the esteemed professionals involved in the Shootout! Every single person here is enthusiastic and dedicated beyond reproach...all are as thorough and scientific about every detail as humanly possible. Everyone on the planet knows this already, but Adam Wilt is a tireless genius; it is simply amazing to see him in action! Greg, Boyd, and I each shot a little bit of candid "making of" sort of video with our personal cameras so as time allows for each of us, we'll try to get you some frame grabs or short clips uploaded -- maybe later in the week for me.

Tomorrow will be some outdoor shooting in Austin, TX. Then in the evening and again on Monday will be tear-down, followed by lengthy processing, organizing, and analysis. Information will released as soon as it is fully validated, but I'm pretty sure that complete and final results will be some time in coming (weeks at the least???). Yes, yes, I know. We all want it all, and right now..but doing this right will be a huge job. I'm right with you in looking forward to it. Now, though, I'm off to dreamland...another busy day is only hours away!

color corrected hdv footage...really intrested in f900 and varicam.

http://www.dvuser.co.kr/zboard/data/movie1/1144574772/filmlookHD_1080p.wmv

Thanks Pete -- the final analysis is probably a post-NAB thing, a few weeks away. There's an awful lot of material to sort through! Mike Curtis has posted some notes about Day Two (Saturday) on his blog:

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/04/texas-shootout-day-two-of-shooting

Just arrived about 30 minutes ago. Was a great weekend and lots of good exchange of information and ideas. Everyone was very professional and it shows by virtue of how many setups we were able to achieve each day.

Some audio commentary from Adam Wilt was recorded Sunday evening while reviewing footage from the various cameras. It will be made available in some form at a later date.

Stay tuned while all the 1's and 0's get churned and tossed. I think many folks are going to be surprised by the outcome of all this just as we were. That's all I am saying for now.

-gb-

Glad to see that all you guys made it home safe and sound... meanwhile Mike Curtis has posted his Day Three (Sunday) notes over at his uber-blog:

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/04/texas-shootout-day-three-last-day

Mike is unstoppable, here are his notes from Day Four (Monday):

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/04/few-more-preliminary-thoughts-on-texas

Just wanted to mention to those who are reading Mike's blog that there is an error with respect to the JVC HD-100. Mike reports that no flavors of HDV are available via FW. You can actually capture 720p 24 and 30 frame via firewire. You have to use the component out and a capture card to get the 720p 60 because the data rate is too much for FW. Confirmed this with Carl Hicks of JVC today.

-gb-

p.s. I sent Mike a message about this but I'm not sure he has gotten it yet.

And some notes from Mike about the tear-down yesterday. We cleared a bunch of stuff on Sunday, but Mike, Adam, Li and I came back on Monday to clean out the shooting area as best we could, and sort out all of Omega's gear we had borrowed. I'm just sorry I had to bail on Mike before he had his truck loaded, but I had to book on down to the feed store before closing to satisfy our high-maintenance horses.

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/04/texas-shootout-monday-capture-and

I think this is great. This should be published and republished. The results will be of great importance to me as I plan to upgrade soon, probably the Z1.

And I'm surprised that Sony, JVC or the like hasn't tried to bribe you in the results. Or have they..........(enter twilight zone music.)

Steven, I know you were only being light-hearted, so don't worry about it. But because of some severely ugly trash-talk in the past, the idea of anyone inappropriately influencing the results is a sensitive one and we definitely don't want to go there.

I'm already on record about the integrity of the TX Shootout (see my April 9, 2006 post in this thread). So let me say absolutely clearly again to any potential trolls:

The TX Shootout was conducted by a highly professional team who took great pains to do it the best it could be done. Camera owners representing each camera were there and NOBODY had the slightest gripe about the proceedings; rather, we all had a great time spending long hours working together toward a common goal of objectively assessing each camera's strengths and weaknesses. And for that matter, it isn't over...many of them will be putting in huge hours over the next weeks to complete this mammoth project. They are all fine, honest folks.

Chris Hurd owns this board and is the final arbiter, but I think it is fairly safe to say that any inflammatory comments that can't be clearly substantiated by proven fact will not be tolerated.

Thanks Pete, and just so the world knows: for the record, no manufacturer's representatives were present at any part of our extended weekend of camera tests. Plus, Adam and I put this thing together with Mike Curtis, so there's sort of a triumverate there. Bullet proof three times over.

Will an official "article" be coming?

Mike's notes are fantastic, but I'm wondering when and where will the results be published in a more organized, easier to follow and read article?

Will it be picked up by DV Mag or another magazine?

The more folks who get exposed to this first hand, real world comparison the better!!

Gary

Yes, Adam says that DV Magazine approved an article on the shootout. But of course you'll be able to find in-depth coverage right here at DVinfo. Just be patient, a mind-boggling amount of data was generated by these tests and the sort of exhaustive study that we're hoping for will take some time.

Everybody who was present at that event is strongly encouraged to post about the experience and provide feedback, however it'll probably be sometime after NAB before anything formal in the way of video clips, etc. is presented.

Yes, Adam says that DV Magazine approved an article on the shootout. But of course you'll be able to find in-depth coverage right here at DVinfo. Just be patient, a mind-boggling amount of data was generated by these tests and the sort of exhaustive study that we're hoping for will take some time.

Hey Boyd,

I got the article from DV Magazine today, I haven't read it, but no offence to the magazine, but I would imagine the stuff people from here will write will lean alittle more direct as to applications and such, since most people here make money off of thier product and just not money off of testing.

Pete, Yeah, I was just cracking a joke. Not as funny as the one I put in Area 51, but a joke never the less.

Although I am annoyed that my Canon Gl2 wasn't included in the shoot out................................yet another joke. :}

I am annoyed that my Canon Gl2 wasn't included in the shoot out...

I did some tests in February which included the GL2 alongside several other cameras, as discussed at the URL below:

http://www.videomem.com/camera_comparison/2006-02-15/index.html

All things considered I'd say the GL2 did okay for SD output, but it doesn't hold up very well once you start talking about HD resolution delivery.

Thanks Kevin

Just got the new DV Magazine, and saw they also had a shootout with the 4 top HDV cams. Even Shannon Rawls got an honorable-ish mention.

I got the article from DV Magazine today, I haven't read it, but no offence to the magazine, but I would imagine the stuff people from here will write will lean alittle more direct as to applications and such

If you "got the article today" then it wasn't an article about the Texas shootout. You probably saw Adam's article about a test done in January. That test was controversial and was done during a single day. The Texas Shootout was conceived after that as a multi-day event where more in-depth testing could be done.

The only person at the Texas Shootout with any affiliation with DV Magazine was Adam Wilt, and I don't think you'll find any bias on his part whatsoever. Look for another article in DV Magazine about the Texas Shootout later.

I thought it was a decent article, and was not biased... really. They overall fav turned out to be the XL-H1, big surprise there, but they did say that all the cameras were very close in overall image quality, even shooting next to a cine-alta. It does seem like they were using one of the early models of the JVC HD100, and it was buggy. How did it compare in your shootout Chris?

Yes, that article was the one from the earlier shootout and is also on dv.com.

This one sounds much more unbiased and I look forward to the results. However, as much as we geeks love this stuff, we have to remember that NONE of these cameras is going wreck a great story shot well with good actors...not even the JVC. :-) I like Mike's take and it sure is telling that he said you'd have to often look at the label to see which camera was which.

Kevin

I like Mike's take and it sure is telling that he said you'd have to often look at the label to see which camera was which.

I think a number of us had that impression. All 6 cameras were connected to G5 capture stations driving HD monitors, but they weren't in the same order as the cameras. Each monitor was labeled with gaffer's tape. Looking down the line it was striking just how similar the images looked on each monitor. We had to keep looking at the labels to make sure which was which.

I look forward to the post-production tests, as this is where the HDV codec comes into play with different cameras as well as the P2, DVCProHD, etc.

Thanks!

Kevin

Boyd- what was the deal with the failed firewire on the z1?

Just out of curiosity, will you also do a round up of the decks that are supposed to work with these cams?

Keith, we didn't use a single VTR on this gig, but a general comparison article is definitely in order. I'll put that on the short list.

That would be great Chris. It would be nice to know what the issues are with them.

Boyd- what was the deal with the failed firewire on the z1?

Kurth, all I know about it is what I read in Mike Curtis' blog here (see the Tuesday April 11 entry): http://www.hdforindies.com/

We never touched the firewire port on the Z1, or any of the other cameras for that matter, during the shootout. All 6 cameras were directly connected to 6 Mac capture stations via either component or SDI interfaces. We ran into one snag during the tests when Adam wanted the Z1 in 50i mode. After rebooting the camera in 50i we couldn't sync the image on the Mac, and after messing around Mike realized that the BOB for the Mac we were using was NTSC only. To avoid re-wiring everything we just rolled tape on those tests with no direct capture. But later in the afternoon Mike re-wired the Z1 to a different BOB/Mac and then we were able to capture both 50i and 60i.

However I don't think any of this could have affected the firewire port. My guess would be that the camera was damaged before we ever used it.

My guess would be that the camera was damaged before we ever used it.

The firewire port on the FX-1 my office used to have was cantankerous. The plug had to be angled just so (pulled out from the body a 1/4") for the connection to work...it seemed likely there was a bad solder joint behind the jack.

More updates about the Shootout from Mike Curtis and his side of things:

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/04/texas-shootout-status-update-and-post

Thanks Chris :)


Ooops! I forgot you hate smileys...

Text smilies good... graphic smilies... baaad.