Hi all and please excuse me if this question has already been asked many times, I did a long search before posting it but I coudn't find the answer.
My next job will be shot 50-50 indoor/outdoor. If I had the money I'd buy a Shoeps cmc 641 for indoors and a cmit 5u for outdoors but I'm afraid I can afford only one of the two at the moment.
The question is: is it better to use a very good Hyper for interiors AND exteriors or a very good shotgun for exteriors AND interiors?
The mic would be mounted on a boom most of the times although sometimes I might be forced by circumstances to simply put the mic on the camera (and feeding the channel 2 with a lav). Given the on board use, the better reach of a shotgun make me think that the cmit 5u would be the better choice for me. But I'm not sure. May be I should stard with the hyper and buy a MK4 capsule next?
Any imput?
Thanks a lot
Pietro

For the same money you could get a nice hyperardiod, shotgun and wired lav from AudioTechnica or AKG. The bottom line is that the added versatility will get you better sound, and it's not the type of gear you'll regret owning later either. I've heard nothing but good things about the CMIT, but it is still very new. Personally I wouldn't invest in one now as my only shotgun, because I'm not certain it's going to be directional enough for tough environments. I'm not saying it isn't, because I have no idea, but I just think we need more reports rolling in about how it performs in real world situations. It sure is puhrty though.

Of the two options, I'd say it's better to go with
a hyper. I haven't personally used those mikes
you've mentioned, but have used Audio Technicas,
both hyper and shotgun. I can almost never get
a good recording indoors with the shotgun because
the shotgun indoors gives a hollow sound whereas
the hyper outdoors is okay, but doesn't have the
presense as would be when done with a shotgun,
but atleast it's passable.

My suggestion would be to use your money for
getting a hyper and a shotgun. Overall, I think
your sound will be better this way. The AT4073
is a nice shotgun and I've liked the sound of
the AKG CK 93/SE 300 B hyper combo.

Another option if you only want one top mic
is the Sennheiser MKH50 hyper. I like the sound of the
Senn along the same lines as the Schoeps
but I think it has more reach, which would
come in handy outdoors.

So Hyper outdoors..
I agree, I had terrible experiences using a MKH416 indoors, but I still wonder if this solution would be passable when using the mic mounted on the camera. I know that putting a mic on the camera is not the right way to record good audio but sometimes I would use it together with a lavaliere on the subject. I was thinking about a better solution than using the audio camera of a Panasonic 100.
Since shoeps are very expensive it is true that I could get both a non-Shoeps shotgun and Hyper with the same money. But I thought that mics don't get old quickly and spending money in good quality is never a waist.. I could get the second one later.

Ciao
pietro

Pietro, even those other mics I mentioned don't get old
quickly, and you could sell those once you have the
money for Schoeps.
I don't think camera-mounting is going to make that
hollow sound you get when using a shotgun indoors
any better. I've tried using a shotgun camera-mounted
indoors and that's why I needed to also get a hyper,
because the results were so unacceptable.

It is important to buy quality gear, but mics like the AT4053 and CK93 are professional mics. I was watching a network news show a couple of months ago (I can't remember which one, but it was one of those news magazine type shows) and there was a CK93 with a swivel joint clearly in the frame of the shot. It's also important to have backups. Both Schoeps mics are famously susceptible to humid environments. It's one of the reasons some pros are switching to the Sennheiser MKH50. I have a feeling that the whole issue is way overblown. I've never had a problem anyway, but it's nice to know that if I had to I could go to the CK93 if the Schoeps crapped out. It's supposed to be pretty resistant to moisture issues. It also seems to be a little less susceptible to wind. As far as boom mounting, yeah, I would probably go with a shotgun in many instances. Another option would be to buy some kind of articulated arm that would attach to the camera and get the mic closer. A hypercardiod would probably work well that way. If you were using a lav for dialog and a camera mounted mic for ambience, a cardiod or hypercardiod would probably work well. When I use a camera mounted mic, I really like the ME64. It seems to reject camera and handling noise better than a shotgun and picks out dialog really well. I only use it for informal shooting though.

Hey Marco, where is a good place to get a CK93? B&H?

Yup.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=349107&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

Looks like it's a special order item.

Marco, Dave, thank you for your advice.
Dave: I was tinking about using a camera mounted mic only outdoors, as an alternative to using the built in mic.
Marco: I don't know well the ME64 but I used to own a ME66 which I didn't like.. Is the ME64 less directional? What makes it a better mic when camera mounted?
I really would like to know wich mic in your opinion is the best to use camera mounted, and I really would like to hear what people who actually know well Shoeps mics would answer to my first question: shotgun or hyper if I only buy one?

Things I like about the ME64: it's small, has a hot output and it's own power supply, has a presence peak that picks out dialog really well, and has very good rejection from the rear so it reduces camera noise. ENG types use it a lot, along with the ME66, probably for these reasons.

If you have access to onboard phantom power, I'd probably just go with a good shotgun for exteriors. For interiors, it's harder to say. The Sanken CS1 is supposed to be the best all around on-camera mic. If you have phantom power, skip the whole K6 series altogether actually.

Marco, Dave, thank you for your advice.
Dave: I was tinking about using a camera mounted mic only outdoors, as an alternative to using the built in mic.
Marco: I don't know well the ME64 but I used to own a ME66 which I didn't like.. Is the ME64 less directional? What makes it a better mic when camera mounted?
I really would like to know wich mic in your opinion is the best to use camera mounted, and I really would like to hear what people who actually know well Shoeps mics would answer to my first question: shotgun or hyper if I only buy one?

I can't claim to know Schoeps well, or even have much hands-on experience with them, but here goes my thoughts anyway. If it was any other pair of mics in contention besides the Schoeps I'd say go with the hyper for the first mic - you could use it both indoors and out while most shotguns are of more limited use indoors. OTOH, Schoeps designed the CMIT5U to minimize the off-axis reflection problems that plague other shotguns. And the CMC641 hyper has been used as a boom mic outdoors as well as in for years. So the waters are much more muddy there - I'd say it depends more on the nature of the material you expect to be shooting - if you need the narrower "beam" of the shotgun to better isolate smaller dialog sources from surrounding sounds, go with that. But for general dialog and music in more normal environments, go with the hyper.

For camera mounting the shotgun would be better but I wouldn't make that too important a factor in the decision. No matter what mic you have, on-camera is almost always going to result in compromised sound.

I do know Schoeps well. Both the cmc641 and CMIT. I also know the AT line.
I will disagree with Marco. If you can afford only one Schoeps, get the cmc641. You can use it inside or out.

I am firmly against camera mounting except for unavoidable run and gun situations. Get over yourself and get a boom op. Also, you'll get much better performance with a good mixer like a Sound Devices 302. The preamps are better than camera preamps and the limiter allows you to raise the record level to the camera without fear of occasional peaks splotching your audio.

Welcome to the next upper level of filed production. YOur choice of the Schoeps is a good one. Raise the rest of your game as well. It's time.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty, I was waiting for your answer. Thank you.
Camera mounting is not something I want but I know (and hope) that i'll be forced to do so in the near future. I myself am a boom operator (posted here about my problems recording audio in schools with a 416) but I'm planning to shoot in remote areas where being light and not too "visible" will be our first concern: street markets, villages in central Asia/Himalaya and so on. I'm not expecting too much from a camera mounted shotgun, I was just wondering what shall I choose between the on board mic of my Panasonic 100 and a shotgun, GIVEN that sometimes I won't be able to use a boom and that I'll do my best to put a lavaliere on the person speaking.
How do you see a cmc641 camera mounted? Not very well, I guess.. better a CMIT? It's what I'm trying to understand.
Ok, this was about camera mounting.
For the rest of my job I guess I understood, better a hyper outdoors than a shotgun indoors. I only have a moderate experience with shotguns, is it much more difficult to keep a subject "on mike" with a Hyper? Is there any way to fix in post the bad sound when the subject turns his head while speaking or gets off mike?
And the last two questions:
-professional mixers like the PSC M4MKII that I use are made for Betacams and not for dv. I had problems sometimes in setting the right camera levels on the panasonic with the reference tone coming from the mixer. I was thinking to start using a mixer made for dv, like the DV PROMIX3 but I don't know how good are his preamps. I mean it is very cheap compared to his bigger brother..
-I don't like so much the standard Sennheiser 100 lav, I had saturation even with the transmitter set to -30db. Can you -or anybody- suggest a good and hidable lav/transmitter/receiver?
I know I asked too much, thank you for your replies!
ciao
pietro

Not Ty but ...

I don't use Schoeps but, for camera mounted, indoors
I use a hyper on the cam and outdoors a shotgun
on the cam.

...
For the rest of my job I guess I understood, better a hyper outdoors than a shotgun indoors. I only have a moderate experience with shotguns, is it much more difficult to keep a subject "on mike" with a Hyper? Is there any way to fix in post the bad sound when the subject turns his head while speaking or gets off mike?
...........
-professional mixers like the PSC M4MKII that I use are made for Betacams and not for dv. I had problems sometimes in setting the right camera levels on the panasonic with the reference tone coming from the mixer. I was thinking to start using a mixer made for dv, like the DV PROMIX3 but I don't know how good are his preamps.
...........
ciao
pietro

As for keeping the subject on-mic, it would be the opposite of what you fear. The wider pickup pattern of the hyper is more forgiving of subject movement than the narrower beam of the shotgun and it's frequency response is more uniform as the target does get off-axis. Remember Schoeps didn't even make a shotgun until the CMIT was introduced just a few months ago.

Just guessing here but perhaps your problem setting levels with your mixer's tone has to do with a couple of factors. First remember the mixer is an analog device where 0db represents its optimum working level. Peaks can go over that in moderation without damage to the signal. OTOH, the camera's 0db point is the 0dbfs digital, the point where you run out of bits and clip and you must never exceed it.

Most DV cameras expect an average recording signal level at about -12dbfs. Activate the tone in your mixer and set the mixer output to show 0db on the mixer's meters. At the camera, set the audio control to manual and adjust the level controls until the tone reads -12db on the camera's meters.

You may have to modify the above slightly depending on whether you're send a mic level or a line level signal from the mixer to the camera, Mic level from the mixer might be too hot for the camera input and requires some padding to trim the level into the proper range. OTOH, if you're using line level from the mixer to the camera, remember "pro" line level is defined as +4dBu while consumer equipment line level is -10dBv and most DV cameras use the consumer reference point. The mixer should have an output level adjustment so you can make sure its line out level corresponds what the camera expects as line level in.

Ty, I was waiting for your answer. Thank you.
Camera mounting is not something I want but I know (and hope) that i'll be forced to do so in the near future. I myself am a boom operator (posted here about my problems recording audio in schools with a 416) but I'm planning to shoot in remote areas where being light and not too "visible" will be our first concern: street markets, villages in central Asia/Himalaya and so on. I'm not expecting too much from a camera mounted shotgun, I was just wondering what shall I choose between the on board mic of my Panasonic 100 and a shotgun, GIVEN that sometimes I won't be able to use a boom and that I'll do my best to put a lavaliere on the person speaking.

**You going to try to stick a lav on someone? Into the personal space and on the body of a complete stranger? Fascinating. If you already have a 416, use it outside, but know that outside in a hard environment with walls, streets and roads, that a shotgun will also pickup a lot more on the sides than you may want.


How do you see a cmc641 camera mounted? Not very well, I guess.. better a CMIT? It's what I'm trying to understand.

***A mount is a mount. The shooting logistics you seem to be after compromise getting the best sound. Once you're more than three feet from the source, the beneficial effects of a good mic are compromised.


Ok, this was about camera mounting.
For the rest of my job I guess I understood, better a hyper outdoors than a shotgun indoors. I only have a moderate experience with shotguns, is it much more difficult to keep a subject "on mike" with a Hyper?

Depends on the mic. The CMIT is very nice as you go off axis. The 416 and 4073a have some weird edges.

Is there any way to fix in post the bad sound when the subject turns his head while speaking or gets off mike?

***No.


And the last two questions:
-professional mixers like the PSC M4MKII that I use are made for Betacams and not for dv. I had problems sometimes in setting the right camera levels on the panasonic with the reference tone coming from the mixer. I was thinking to start using a mixer made for dv, like the DV PROMIX3 but I don't know how good are his preamps. I mean it is very cheap compared to his bigger brother..

***Setting levels (calibrating) should have nothing to do with the design of the mixer. The main difference is plumbing (connectors). What problems do you refer to?

-I don't like so much the standard Sennheiser 100 lav, I had saturation even with the transmitter set to -30db. Can you -or anybody- suggest a good and hidable lav/transmitter/receiver?
I know I asked too much, thank you for your replies!
ciao
pietro

*** again, I am not familiar with any problem, other than not knowing what to do with the gear. Perhaps you can explain further.

Ty Ford

I set the levels exactly as Steve says:
"Activate the tone in your mixer and set the mixer output to show 0db on the mixer's meters. At the camera, set the audio control to manual and adjust the level controls until the tone reads -12db on the camera's meters".
After doing that, as a boom/mixer operator, I should be confident that what I see on the mixer's display is what I get on tape. Most of the time, when I'm able to whatch directly the camera display, I see two or more red dots on the camera display while the mixer's display shows me "0". This happens when pople talk, not when I'm recording a more regular sound, may be it is a matter of some delay in showing the levels, or a different speed in meter's response.. Now I'm confortable by setting the camera levels to -14 or -16 when sending the reference tone from the mixer set to "0". Not a big problem but it would be nice to be more confident in what i see in the mixer's display. Forget about..

As for going off axis, I understand that the CMIT is very nice. Will even the cmc641 be "forgiving of subject movement"? Do I understand right?

And, Ty: I'm going to stick a lav on someone I know! He will be walking around and occasionally speak, to the camera, to me or to other poeple. Anyway I'll try to become a friend of anyone I want to stick a lav on before i do..
Thank you very much to everybody, sorry for the bad english.
and don't forget to suggest a good lav!
ciao
pietro

I set the levels exactly as Steve says:
"Activate the tone in your mixer and set the mixer output to show 0db on the mixer's meters. At the camera, set the audio control to manual and adjust the level controls until the tone reads -12db on the camera's meters".
After doing that, as a boom/mixer operator, I should be confident that what I see on the mixer's display is what I get on tape. Most of the time, when I'm able to whatch directly the camera display, I see two or more red dots on the camera display while the mixer's display shows me "0". This happens when pople talk, not when I'm recording a more regular sound, may be it is a matter of some delay in showing the levels, or a different speed in meter's response.. Now I'm confortable by setting the camera levels to -14 or -16 when sending the reference tone from the mixer set to "0". Not a big problem but it would be nice to be more confident in what i see in the mixer's display. Forget about..

As for going off axis, I understand that the CMIT is very nice. Will even the cmc641 be "forgiving of subject movement"? Do I understand right?

And, Ty: I'm going to stick a lav on someone I know! He will be walking around and occasionally speak, to the camera, to me or to other poeple. Anyway I'll try to become a friend of anyone I want to stick a lav on before i do..
Thank you very much to everybody, sorry for the bad english.
and don't forget to suggest a good lav!
ciao
pietro
to set the camera as -12 dbfs reference to 0 dbu is the one of the worst things i heard for dialog recording , usially the picks are 6-8 db higher and not controlled picks could go up much more , so staying whith 4 db headroom is something very stuipid
the -12dbfs setting mostly good for music recording which usially compressed with very low dinamic range ( if you recording from pa or concert , the dynamic range of the dialog can easily go from8 to 20 db

what camera do you use and which mixer ?
there is no one rule for all the dv setting
the only one is your mixer should distort befor your camera
so if your mixer able get out 22 dbu you should calibrate it as -22 dbfs , if it cant handle this amount you will have to pad the outputs .

some cameras can handle it in the analog stage and some cant so you can record extrimly well distorted signal and see no brick wolling on the camera .

Oleg:
I use a Panasonic dvx100 mini dv and a PSC M4MKII mixer. I wish I could speak and write a better english-explain myself better.
After setting the levels "0" on the mixer's output (reference tone) and "0" on the camera (the round spot between the white ones and the red ones, which is -12db) I take care not to send a too high input to the camera by costantly keeping the levels of the mixer below 0, maximum 0.
I deal with wild teenagers, they go from whisper to scream in 1/100 of second.
I mean, i try to keep the peaks at 0, not the average.
If you know the camera and the mixer I'm using and you know that I'm doing something stupid, thanks for telling me.
But please now tell me how to do right..

since i dont remember the mixer , last time touched about 4-5 yeras ag i only rember that the scale is in some way was made to imitate the beta sp .
so actually i dont know where is the highest point this mixer can go whithout distort .
so the best way to find out the calibrating point .
connect external tone generator to your mixer input , rise the level until you get distortion in the headphones ,go back to the point you dont hear distortion .
put your camera dials on 12 oclock , check if you hear distortion( connect the camera rca outs to your mixer return) , if yes , dial the mixer back to the point you dont hear it
now you have the higest voltage your camera can handle whithout distort .
20 db under is have to be your reference tone , if that point is over your zero on mixer you will need atunitae the mixer output .

so if your mixer is 0 dbu for 0 db on the meter you need at least 5-6 db atunuators
then its -20 dbfs on the camera scale - working normally the picks flying to zero or more will give you 6-8 db over the regullar headroom .

I set the levels exactly as Steve says:
"Activate the tone in your mixer and set the mixer output to show 0db on the mixer's meters. At the camera, set the audio control to manual and adjust the level controls until the tone reads -12db on the camera's meters".
After doing that, as a boom/mixer operator, I should be confident that what I see on the mixer's display is what I get on tape. Most of the time, when I'm able to whatch directly the camera display, I see two or more red dots on the camera display while the mixer's display shows me "0". This happens when pople talk, not when I'm recording a more regular sound, may be it is a matter of some delay in showing the levels, or a different speed in meter's response.. Now I'm confortable by setting the camera levels to -14 or -16 when sending the reference tone from the mixer set to "0". Not a big problem but it would be nice to be more confident in what i see in the mixer's display. Forget about..

As for going off axis, I understand that the CMIT is very nice. Will even the cmc641 be "forgiving of subject movement"? Do I understand right?

And, Ty: I'm going to stick a lav on someone I know! He will be walking around and occasionally speak, to the camera, to me or to other poeple. Anyway I'll try to become a friend of anyone I want to stick a lav on before i do..
Thank you very much to everybody, sorry for the bad english.
and don't forget to suggest a good lav!
ciao
pietro


Ciao Pietro,

Your english is 1000 times better than my Italian, even better than Oleg's.
I think the problem may be that the mixer meters may not be set to PEAK. Check the manual. Unless the mixer can display PEAK readings, you will surely clip the audio. Peaks can be anywhere from 3-4 DB to 12-14 dB above RMS level.

If you know the person, that's OK. I was imagining you walking up to someone on the street for an interview and trying to put a mic on them.

I don't know exactly how wide the CMIT and cmc641 are realtively. Both are wider at a distance than up close.

If you can position it properly (pointed up) the AT 831 is good at rejecting surrounding sound.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/29cddd9d16f8a17a/index.html

These days, I use Countryman EMW omnis most of the time. Sometimes an B6.


Ty Ford

Thanks for catching me on that Ty, should have said something about peak versus VU.

lets say if you will attenuate the mixer with 4-6 db and put the mixer zero ( 0dbv ) FOR -20 DBFS you will be able jump between the 0-+4 on mixwer vu meters without distort the camera input .
that way you wouldn't have any need to open the limiters which sits very low for digital recording .
just keep the meter hit the +3on the mixer in regullar conversation that will give you at least 12 dbu picks and you will stay with 8 db headroom for unexpected ones .
the scale on this mixer was done to make work whith beta sp cameras and not in the best way.

the vu( uv- useless values) meter is quit useless for normal work and only corespondents average loudness while unexpected pick can definitely distort your camera input)

Thank you for taking the time to give me an answer.
I think that the mixer i use can display PEAK readings (see manual: http://www.professionalsound.com/M4mkII.pdf) but I'm afraid I'm not getting something important about what peak reading is.. I'll try to read another 1000 times the manual and your posts.

Anyway I'll be using the PSC for the last time in the next days and then I'll have to buy a "personal" mixer for the next job. I'll learn more about that one hopefully. Sound devices 302 would be a good choice for DV?

As for the mic, I will probably go with the cmc641 and wait to hear how is using it outdoors. If the reach is not enough I'll buy a shotgun next.

For the lav, I'm not sure I can get Countryman easily whare I live. AT, Tram, Sennheiser and Sanken for sure.

Thanks again
Pietro

the 302 will be the best choice to interact with every recording device
about the mics
i was more thinking to get more then 1
check the mbho 603/4 with 500 hyper cardioid or akg 480+ uls63 and audio technica 4073 to use outside , the benefit is you have mics for different situations , the other benefit you have back up .
schoeps sucks heavily in humidity situations so was less relley on that one for exteriors ( i have 4 like that they all start to buzz )

Oleg,
Do you like the AT4073 better than the CK69? If I was going to buy the ULS series I think I'd get the hypercardiod and shotgun caps.

Also, I'm curious about the "mbho 603/4." I've never heard of that. Is it shorthand for something?

thats a good choice
i say they are good mics , not sure what is better , the akg is more versatile
i dont own them and i never owned them in the same time to check face to face


mbho is German company - 603 is preamp .604 is a short new version

http://www.amptec.de/test/MBHO%20preamps.html

Interesting Mics Oleg. The capsule on that 604 looks just like a Schoeps!

Interesting Mics Oleg. The capsule on that 604 looks just like a Schoeps!

schoeps is not the only company which makes detachable capsules
akg ,neumann,se,elation, geffel , octava and others ,even beringher make something like that


mbho have exellent range of capsules and accessories .
no doubt they took Schoeps as good example what you need

http://www.amptec.de/test/MBHO%20capsules.html


this the 604 preamp whith build in swivel
http://www.amptec.de/test/MBHO%20news.html#

Yeah, but the shape and color or it (the grey nextel one) -- just like an MK41. I just thought it was odd. That's all.

Yeah, but the shape and color or it (the grey nextel one) -- just like an MK41. I just thought it was odd. That's all.

I believe that company was founded by several ex-Schoeps engineers. Might have something to do with the similarity <g>.

I believe that company was founded by several ex-Schoeps engineers. Might have something to do with the similarity <g>.
you can get it in silver as well as it with schoeps

Thanks for posting this Oleg. Very interesting looking mics. Their PZM mics look really cool too. Anybody know of a U.S. distributer? I'm not really in the market for another mic right now, but I'm really curious about the price.