I've been in the market looking for a new camera for a while now and I've been torn between the above 2 cameras. It's been hard to get peoples' opinions about it cos the X10 is so new, but I was really glad to have found this forum.

Any opinions? What I would like to know are the differences betwen the 2 cameras, such as functions, manual controls menus, etc. I understand the difference in price and size and would like to know if the X10 is worth buying over the PD150.

Thanks in advance.
E-Gene Soh

It really depends on what features you need. There is a PDX10 review coming in 2 months - DV Magazine. The PDX has better 16:9 and is smaller; the PD150 has better controls and is bigger. The audio is better with the PDX, the LUX is better with the PD150....

But like I said, what I really want to know are the differences between the 2.

Basically what I wanted to buy was the PD150 till I saw the X10 and realise that I may be able to save over $500 by buying the X10 instead of the PD150. So what I really want is the PD150 but at a lesser cost. Besides, the PD150 is way older than the X10.

Well, only you will make the final call. But if it were me, I would pick the VX2000 over both of them. Why? Because with the BBC audio fix and a good mic, I'd end up with a better PD150---except for the more robust DVCAM format.

What you should do, is compare the specs of the PDX10 and PD150. Then go look at these cams, and even shot some footage. (Use the same tape.) Then go look at a Sony monitor, and play back the tape.

In all honesty, I think the PD150 is the overall better cam. However, both cams have their pros and cons---it is you who has to decide which pros and cons you can live with.

What are you going to use the cam for? John Beale has a wonderful web site which includes info, thoughts, user reviews etc, on the VX2000/PD150 and TRV950/PDX10. From what I gather, he likes the TRV900/PD100A better than the TRV950/PDX10.

Not knowing what you want to do with a cam, I cannot suggest anything else. If it were up to me about which cam I should buy, this is for me, I'd look at the VX2000, GL2 and perhaps even the PV-DV953 (the 953 should be out in less than 2 months in the USA).

John Beale's site can be found here:

http://www.dvfreak.com/links.htm

I'll probably be using the camera for corporate videos, wedding videos and hopefully a short film that I've been wanting to do for ages. So I'll definitely want the XLR inputs.

I'm unable to do a comparision of the 2 cameras mainly cos I don't have the means to, so I was really hoping to find someone here who's used both the cameras before.

Anyone? Or if there's anyone who's used the X10 before and can give me some opinions on it, that'll be great. Btw is it true that the X10 can't record on LP on miniDV?

I would pick the PD-150. It is a solid proven workhorse. The PDX-10 is a new fangled thing. There are a few of the features they stripped off the PD-100a to replace it with the PDX-10 and it really pissed me off because the PD-100a was a VERY nice camera.
The actual lens is much smaller on the PDX (smaller lens= less light, less quality)
The chips are smaller. (yes they are "megapixel" but they aren't even a quarter of an inch, it's closer to 1/5th! That's like saying APS film is the same quality as 35mm, NO it's not.)

I think that Sony completely missed the mark with that new camera and if they update their PD-150 with garbage like that I'll switch camera makers. I wouldn't buy the PDX-10 just to prove a point. Yes the 16:9 is better than the OLD PD-100 but I don't think it's THAT great, it isn't REAL 16:9, it's just a little closer. They still mask the chip to get it. If it's just $500 for the PD-150 get it, it's so much more camera!

What I really want is a DSR-570, but at a lower cost. Maybe if I want real hard.....nope, gotta spend they money to play pro ball.

I agree. Get the PD150. Bigger chips=better picture.

Re: "'ll probably be using the camera for corporate videos, wedding videos and hopefully a short film that I've been wanting to do for ages. So I'll definitely want the XLR inputs."

You can add an adaptor on the VX2000 for XLR input. The BBC fix entails changing some wires around and using a Glenbox.

Re: "is it true that the X10 can't record on LP on miniDV?"

I would never use LP.

The PDX10 uses the DVCAM format, as far as I know, unless Sony changed this; the PD150 can use both the miniDV and DVCAM formats.

I own a TRV950, which I think comes very close to PDX-10 in terms of video quality.

A friend of mine just bought a PD-150 2-days ago, and we tried shooting the same scenes on the same tape just for comparison.

PD-150 performs exceptionally well in low-light condition and it's way better than PDX-10/950.

So, if you are going to shoot events (esp.indoors), I would strongly suggest that you go for the PD-150. Seeing is believing, the PD-150/VX2000 is indeed a formidable camcorder.

Some fact/figure for your info:

The same scene, with manual adjustment both of the cams were adjusted with the following settings to achieve the same level of brightness/clarity :

950 PD-150

F1.6 F3.8

Gain +6 Gain 0

Shutter 50 Shutter 50

Hmmm, ok points taken, but I would still really like to hear from people who have used the X10 and their comments on it. After all most of the replies have been from people who have used the PD150 and not the X10.

Btw, what would be the combined price of a VX2K with the Beachtek XLR adapter be? Would it be cheaper than a PD150?

And one more thing, if the AGDVX100 is gonna be the same price as the PD150, would you get it?

I can more or less tell you something on X10 becoz I own a 950. Apart from the XLR, and the 16x9 mode, basically the video quality are about the same.

X10/950 are pretty dark considering both of them have only 1/4.7" CCD.

The only advantage of getting X10 over PD-150 is it's size. X10 has two audio inputs : built-in stereo mic and the dismountable XLR adapter+mic whereas PD-150 is deaf without the XLR mic.

VX2000 + XLR adapter comes very close to PD-150 in terms of price. Why not getting PD-150 instead?

In addition, PD-150 has more professional manual control than VX2000. For instance, the PD-150 has independant iris and gain control, but the latter has both combined as exposure. This is somehow restrictive.

Yes, you are right that the X10 is of newer technology than PD-150. X10 is able to capture high-res stills but not the PD-150.
But I would advise that the video quality is more important in this case since we are emphasizing on video quality not stills quality.

The bigger chips will most always give you better low light performance too. If money is an issue, follow Frank's advice and look at the VX2000. Unless you want the smaller size of the 950/PDX10. But keep in mind that you get what you pay for. The PD150 has better controls, as stated above, and a higher res B&W viewfinder and also allows you to shoot DVCAM.

Frank, I think I read someplace that the PDX10 will do both DV and DVCAM now, unlike the older PD100. But I could be wrong about that.

I can confirm that the PDX10 does both DV (SP only) and DVCAM.

I'm very happy with my PDX. I bought it for its 16:9 capabilities(which are good enough for me although it might not satisfy the pros). The 16:9 is, in my opinion, better than the 16:9 that I got from a rented VX2000. Haven't done any low light shooting but I can appreciate that the low light of VX2000 is better.

I just got a quote from a local dealer and the difference between the X10 and the PD150 is $750.

I really like the PD150, but there are also some features that I like on the X10 like the touch screen focus, the onboard mic, 16:9, hi res stills and PRICE.

As for the PD150, I like the size, manual controls and low light shooting.

But from the quote that I received, the AGDVX100 is only $30 more...looks like I've got another camera to think about.

Thanks, Bill, for the info.

Re: "Btw, what would be the combined price of a VX2K with the Beachtek XLR adapter be? Would it be cheaper than a PD150?"

Yes, the VX2000 + Beachtek would be cheaper than the PD150. The VX2000 sells for just under $2300 in the USA.

If you are thinking of cost verses value, I suggest going with a MX3000. Allan is selling one for under $1300 US. Allan's contact info can be found on the MX forum. Tim also may be able to get you one.

The MX3000 has very good built in sound, similar picture quality with the VX2000/PD150, but lower lux. However, it's lux would be higher than that of the TRV950 and PDX10.

But if the cam is for weddings, I WOULD go for a VX2000, because of the lux/bigger CCDs (1/4" verses 1/3"). Nevertheless, the MX3000 would also do---you just have to get used to some Japanese.

e-gene is there somewhere near you that you can rent the cameras at? i was looking hard at the Canon's, but ended up getting a PD150 after renting them all and trying them out. i've been very happy with the PD150, the lowlight performance is almost unbelievable.

No, unfortunately there aren't many places here that I can rent cameras at a reasonable price for. A friend of mine actually has both the VX2K and the PD150, so I've played with them before and I do like them both. As for the PDX10, I've not gotten a chance to try it out and that's the one which I'm hoping to get some help from.

Why don't you add your location to your profile so people can see where you're from and maybe someone will notice you are near them and offer to show you some footage. (besides Chris H. will probably ask you to fix it anyway)
good luck

Well, I own TRV 950 (so I can say few words about x10, which is PRO-version of my cam )---
It has DV CAM format, XLR adapters and one or two manual contoles more...

And I love this camera (mine; 950), it really produces great picture, colours are great, but I definitly miss few more manual controls (manual IRIS control, manual Zoom ring maybe,), and I miss XLR addapter... (I'll get Beachtech one of these days)....

But what I've definitly noticed, it really needs better performance at low-light conditions....(hey, declared 7 lux - mesuerd is at least 9, I bet:(

And when I am talkin lowlight, I don't mean just dusk or evening, or low litghts interior....
I expirience problems in the middle of the day in room with curtons on....
Except if I am standing next to windows.....


I mean, ok....this isn't tragic problem, but since I am recording materials which I sell to National TV for broadcasting I have to have this lightning standards taken care of....

So, wherever I go, I need to bring lightning with me...

And it's a pretty hard case with 3x1KW lights.... so you need car, it's heavy, and then this "size difference" between x150 and x10 becomes advantage for bigger cam:(

Yes, I know, I should've gone for more proffesional cam at the first place, but I hardley put enaough money toghether to purchase this 950....

And this lightning system, I am still borrowing....
And XLR adaptor with mikes I have to rent....

So, maybe, just maybe....if buying again, I would go for x150....

CCDs are just big enaough for broadcasting quality...

I have 3 over 1 milloion pixels CCD-s, but it uses only about 500 for video....the rest is here for stills (who gives a sh*t about stills; I mean it's ok, but that is really the last thing I am thinkin of when buying camcorder)...
And, OK, it uses some of those "unused" pixels for picture stabilization.....

Ok, I'gone OT...Sorry!

V.

Ok, I've posted my location, so please don't send the dogs after me. :P

If the low light problem is as bad as you say it is, then I think it's a cause for concern, cos I do shoot a lot indoors. I'm actually also gonna be doing some work for my church and a lot of it is going to be indoors, therefore I can't afford to have those problems.

So it looks like it is down to the PD150 and the new DVX100 by Panny. Hmmm, yet another tough decision. Will have to hope over to the DVX100 forum for that, or can anyone help me here?

I've just started this topic a few days ago...
you can find it at "will sony respond"....

And I must say that people who do own it definitly turned me against it....

It still has problems....And those are real prblems, not those "oh my works on 2 lux lower and mine's got manual iris)...

It seems that this 24p camera has a major error...

Sound sync is 2 frames late behind a picture....

They succsseded in making picture work as 24 frames (48 fields) a sec... and sound keeps being 2 frames late....

And its 16:9 isn't real 16:9 and few other things...

COnclusion was that it definitly ain't HD camera, as Pana was going for....

It is pioneering stuff, an therewith very bugy and unstable.....

Actualy, just go to this topic and check it out....
Again, it is called "Will Sony Respond" and is started by me, Vanja Marin....

Good Luck!!!

PS
And You made me kind of feeling guilty that my post was the one to definitly turn you against x10:( Maybe you need some more opinions:(

Maybe I see this lowlight problem bigger then it is (but lot of church jobs- huh, tht could really be a problem)....I don't know...

I noticed the astronauts on the space shuttle on the NASA channel were using a PDX10.

Also, there is a user on these boards that has a PD-150 and lives there in Melbourne so you might get lucky, I have seen him around but can't remember who it was. He was very helpful when I was looking for some PAL footage and info for the PD-150P (the next camera I am looking to buy, probably in the next few weeks)
As attractive as the DVX100 might be it is just too new for my taste and I've been using the PD-150 for a couple of years now so I am very comfortable with it already and know what it's capable of.

For what it's worth, I think the PDX10 is a real good cam. If I owned one, I'd be very happy with it..., except for shooting in lower light conditions---and, this is important for 1/2 of my shooting.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski :
Re: "Btw, what would be the combined price of a VX2K with the Beachtek XLR adapter be? Would it be cheaper than a PD150?"

FWIW, I got a VX-2000 about a year and a half ago. At the time I paid something like $2500 + $200 for a beachtek. At that time the PD-150 was going for about $3500. To be honest, I probably would have gotten the PD-150 but at the time they were really hard to come by and I was in a hurry. I haven't regretted it at all. Just last night I shot some live performance video and used the beachtek for a stereo feed from the house mixing board. It sounded great.

So I second Frank's recommendation, especially since you're concerned about price. With the VX-2000 and Beachtek you should save enough to get a wide angle lens, external charger, even a tripod. Also - I think the Sony NP-F960 battery if a must-have item. These things are just amazing. Last night I ran the camera for over 4 hours with the LCD screen on the whole time. At that point the battery meter said I still had around 6 hours left. That might be a bit optimistic, but I've never run it completely down and know it's good for at least 6 hours, probably more.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski :
Re: Also - I think the Sony NP-F960 battery if a must-have item. These things are just amazing. Last night I ran the camera for over 4 hours with the LCD screen on the whole time. At that point the battery meter said I still had around 6 hours left. That might be a bit optimistic, but I've never run it completely down and know it's good for at least 6 hours, probably more. -->>>

One of the reasons why I began looking at the PD150 was cos of it's batteries as I currently own a TRV7e and it uses the same batteries.

So here's what I've got so far

DVX100 - buggy, pricey but new and "promising"
PDX10 - lousy at low light but small footprint and cheap
PD150 - Pricey, old but reliable and low lux
VX2000 - Lack of XLR but cheaper than PD150

Just to sum it up as it is currently in my mind. Don't we all wish that there was a perfect camera?

Looks like it's gonna come down to rolling a dice soon.

I am reading and thinking!!!

YOu know, It would be really fair if we all coul've bough at least 2 cammeras...
They should sell them in pair...

You shouldn't be able to buy only one camera, at all:)

<<<-- Originally posted by Vanja Marin : I am reading and thinking!!!

YOu know, It would be really fair if we all coul've bough at least 2 cammeras...
They should sell them in pair...

You shouldn't be able to buy only one camera, at all:) -->>>

Sounds like a plan to me...

...if money grew on them trees

You wrote:"PDX10 - lousy at low light but small footprint and cheap"That is an inacurate statement ! it is no VX2000 or 150 in dark situations but short of shooting bands in bars or shooting on the street after sundown it's really not that big of a problem. Or are you one of those "documentry" makers that does not believe in lighting your work?
Sounds to me like the VX2000 would do what you want. Unless 16:9 is important to you in which case the X10 is for you. Just plan on useing a bit of light in dark situations. Compromises are part and parcel of a normal work day unless you have the financial padding to avoid it.

if I were Sony

"I would be happy with our lowest complaint bid....
...if you are shooting at 50IRE or less you are not taking full technical advantage of the medium anyway"


but I am not :)

Vanja--Panasonic never claimed the DVX100 was an HD camera. It is miniDV and that's all they've ever said. There are people on some boards who seem to often interchange 24p with HD, thus leading to confusion, probably. The camera is strictly a 1/3" "prosumer" miniDV camera that shoots in 24p as well as standard 30fps. I've also read that the audio is 2 fields out of sync, which would be one frame, not two. Still, even one frame makes it a problem, in my opinion.

I've read all of the rest of this thread and wanted to post my own questions since I am also trying to decide between these 2/4 cameras and maybe also the Panasonic AG-DVX100 (though the Panasonic is less likely).

First, my application is primary independent filmmaking. So, cost is definitely a concern, but I want a video AND audio quality that (assuming my story, editing, cinematography, and acting is also good), people will take me seriously.

The PD pro versions are about $700 or so more than their consumer counterparts. For that I get the following very nice features:

* a B&W viewfinder (better for manual focusing than the color one found on the consumer versions)

* XLR inputs--I am using XLR mikes, so this is nice, however in my next film, and possibly all future films, I am doing independent audio recording into a professional mixer and audio recorder and syncing in post production.

* Independent Gain and Iris control (versus just Exposure on the cosumer versions)

* DVCAM format

Okay...here are my questions which would help me decide to buy either the pro or consumer variety (I need to really justify the extra $700):

1) DVCAM: Is this filmed on miniDV tapes? Is DVCAM a RECORDING format or a TAPE format? If it is a tape format, can I also record using miniDV tapes?

2) The Beechtek XLR to mini adapter...is it really as good as integrated XLR inputs? Do I get audio noise introduced? Someone said something about a BBC fix or something, what is that?

3) How much do I care about independent Gain and Iris control versus just Exposure control?

If I can get answers to those three questions, that'll help me a lot in trying to pick between the pro and consumer versions. But the next hard part is which model...the 950 or vx2000...

Here's what I like about each:

TRV950 likes:

* uses a 37mm lens, which matches the 37mm 1 CCD (DCR TRV 330) camera I already have, which means I can use my current telescopic and wide-angle lens attachments, plus all the filters I already own, a definite plus

* uses the InfoLithium M battery, which also matches my 1 CCD model, meaning my 10 hour batter can be reused for this model too

* 16:9 true format. I see that above people are saying that this isn't actually true though...

VX2000 likes:

* Better picture and low light quality (which is a big one in my use for the camera)

* Progressive Scan

* Can run for more time on the biggest Sony battery (9 hours versus the 950's max of like 5 hours or whatever it was)

Unforutnately, not only does the VX2000 cost more, but I also have to buy stuff like batteries and new lens attachments and filters to fit the different 58mm lens.

Here are my other questions to help try to pick out between these two models:

4) 16:9 on the 950...I'd like to hear more on why it is NOT true...

5) How much do I care about Progressive Scan? Adobe Premiere does non-interlacing.

6) Is the VX2000 picture quality so much better than I should go for it over saving cost on new batteries and filters/lenses?

Any other comments are certainly welcomed :)

Thanks,
Derek Beck

There is so much confused "information?" in your post it is hard to think of what to say to you.

1.) Forget Progressive with sony !! it is a non issue period.

2.) 950 Battery time is better than the 2000 by far like #1 this is not a debatable issue

3.) For low light performance the 2000 is the best prosumer cam in it's price range on the market.

4).DVCAM is a recording format and the tapes are a bit better than mini DV but they are interchangable size wise.

5.) Beachtec is good but still hooks up through a 1/8 mini jack.They really work wonders with the audio of a camcorder.
forget the BBC fix as it had to do with something long past unless you are buying and much older model cam

6.)2000 picture quality is no better than the 950 unless you are in a dark room in that case the 2000 will get the picture while the 950 will have a harder time with the light level

7.)16:9 on the 950 is good but is not the same as the x10. Why ? sonys' sneaky way of making the PDX10 worth more $$$ A software fix along the way may fix this problem but it aint here now.

I am sure others will help out with there own suggestions and comments so I will stop here. It will be your cam. so it is your decision to make.They are both very good camcorders.
In fact at this time the 950 is still underrated in my oppinion because of an obsession with the 1/4.7 CCD's as opposed to the 1/4 chips in the 900. It turns out to be a big sticking point for many video enthusiasts.
Best of luck on your purchase.

The PDX-10 looks like a really interesting camera to me, but I don't have personal experience; I have a VX-2000. I was just looking at Scott Billup's website and noticed he added a commentary on the PDX-10 along with a sample frame. This site is definitely worth a visit if you haven't been there before, especially the camera section. You can see shots of resolution charts taken with all the prosumer cameras and compare them with the really expensive HD cams and even the Thomson Viper. Check out http://www.pixelmonger.com/hg_cam.html. He says the following about the X-10:

> Sony's DSR-PDX10 gets my vote for most bang for the buck in a 3chip,
> native 16X9 camcorder. You can't get a better image until you spend nearly
> three times as much. While the chips in the PD150 are bigger, if you are
> shooting in 16X9 mode (and there is very little reason not to be) the image
> from the PDX10 uses a lot more pixels.
>
> While the glass on this little monster is the best of the entire sony miniDV
> line, the focus ring from hell will keep it in the consumer category with all
> the others.

Regarding a few of the VX-2000 questions, the Beachtek adaptor sounds good to me when I use it with audio from a mixing board recording live performances. I haven't compared it to a PD-150 though. I think the PD-150 gives you separate L+R record level adjustment, but the Beachtek will also do that.

The NP-F960 batteries on the VX-2000 are really robust. I've run for over 6 hours with the LCD screen on the full time and the meter still claimed 4 hours were left. I don't know if you can get 9 hours, but definitely a lot more than 5.
No idea how any of this compares with the 950/X-10.

DVCAM is supposed to be a more robust recording format since the tape runs faster. There is not supposed to be any difference in the quality of the digital image however. Downside is that the tapes don't run as long. That would be somewhat of a problem for me when taping live shows, I often use the 80 minute miniDV tapes. The VX-2000 will also record even longer in LP mode, but I have never tried it. Again, the digital data is the same so theoretically no quality loss but the dropout/error potential is higher due to the slower speed.

I think if you read back through this forum you'll find quite a lot of comments and links that address many of your other questions. Happy shopping:-)

Okay, I think I'm leaning towards the DXRPDX10...

I just spent about an hour doing some crude testing with a TRV950 and VX2000 at a local dealer, and I really feel that the difference in quality is indistinguishable. However, I'm considering their big-brother PD versions, primarily because of the XLR inputs, the DVCAM, the B&W viewfinder (better for manual focusing), the independent Iris & Gain control (versus "Exposure" combined control), and in the case of the X10, avoiding some of the stupid Bluetooth gimicks and such in lieu of getting "true" 16:9 recording. I'm also leaning towards the X10 for the lower cost and the fact that is uses the same filter size and battery size as my current 1 CCD camera.

Okay...here are my newest questions (and thanks to those that repsonded to my first post :)...

1) The reported manual gain problem which introduced hiss and noise into the audio track on the PD150...has this problem also been reported on the X10? I think I've seen quite the opposite and that "sony finally fixed the audio problem" with this model...any truth to that?

2) Anyone disagree that video quality (ignore the fact that the vx2000/dp150 can operate with less light) between the 950/x10 versus the vx2000/dp150 is essentially the same?

3) Except in extreme contrast situations, is this vertical smear problem in the x10 a real problem?

Also, please feel free to comment on my bit of logic here when leaning towards the x10: besides the fact that I can reuse my wideangle, telescopic lens, filters, and InfoLithium M batteries, the true-er 16:9 aspect ratio and the cost savings are good reasons to go after the x10 instead of the pd150. I'm a bit concerned that maybe I'll be unhappy that I don't have the lower lux rating and the x10 smear problem may be a problem though, but can't justify the extra cost of the camera plus battery and lenses for this reason alone. (Remember, my primary use is independent filmmaking.)

Another reason I'm tempted to spend less now: I concede that either camera I buy will most likely be an interim purchase (versus a final best purchase to last my filmmaking career), since there is stuff on its way like 24fps progressive scan, High Definition, cameras with SDI connections, etc, etc. I highly doubt this will be my last camera purchase. (I have too many expensive hobbies...)

Sorry for yet another long post. Any thoughts/comments appreciated/welcomed. :)

Quick replies ---

1 I don't know the Sony truth, but I have not experienced any undue hiss with my PDX10 using both phantom and non-phantom XLR mikes.

2 I don't.

3 The vertical smear problem can be avoided by picking what you shoot carefully.

Julian