Has anyone tried to switch the HD100 live in HDV? I'm looking into the Edirol switcher that does HD. I will try it for a week next week, just wanted to know if anyone else has tried. Hoping to use it for a couple of tv shows shot live to tape, then a little post later.

Other option would be FCP, has anyone ever tried using Multicam feature with HDV. I know I could post everything but if I can save some time, it'll save a lot of money.

BTW, I'm not on a MAC system yet, just need to know what will work best for my circumstances first.

Thank-you for any of your feedback.

Brian,

You should call my dealer in Hamilton (http://hvs.on.ca/ProVideo/index.html). Peter Bauce, 905-522-1200. He can advise you on live switching of HD100. He recently installed a bunch of HD100s at CTS and did some sort of live switching setup. I think he was able to do with firewire, but I'm not sure. He's the expert when it comes to live stuff.

As for FCP and multicam: It works great, but on my system (dual G4 1.2Ghz) I don't have the horsepower to do even 3 streams of HD material multicam, so I had to convert to offlineRT to offline.

Other option would be FCP, has anyone ever tried using Multicam feature with HDV. I know I could post everything but if I can save some time, it'll save a lot of money.


I've done a lot of multicam editing with FCP5, and a little with the HD100 specifically. I can get 8 streams of 720p24 AIC HDV playing in real time on my dual 2ghz. I can do about 4-5 of native HDV before things start to get so slow that I'd rather offline RT the media.

Thanks Tim,
I will call him. I have heard though that firewire would not be an option since there will be a delay. Do you think the new MAC book pro could handle 3-4 streams of HDV?
BTW, I always view this forum and I have to say how nice it is to see people like yourself constantly helping the production community. I'm sure I'm speaking on behalf of many people. Thank-you.

Has anyone tried to switch the HD100 live in HDV? I'm looking into the Edirol switcher that does HD. I will try it for a week next week, just wanted to know if anyone else has tried. Hoping to use it for a couple of tv shows shot live to tape, then a little post later.

Other option would be FCP, has anyone ever tried using Multicam feature with HDV. I know I could post everything but if I can save some time, it'll save a lot of money.

BTW, I'm not on a MAC system yet, just need to know what will work best for my circumstances first.

Thank-you for any of your feedback.
If you are talking about the V-440HD it is a VERY nice piece. I saw a demo on it in the winter and for the money, in a live scenario that switcher is a great solution.

Thats the one Stephen,

You're the one that told me about it. Roland will loan us one for the week to try. The switcher is the least expensive thing. Still have to worry about monitors, cameras, sticks, clear coms etc.. Starting to be big $$$. Should be able to make some money off it though since there is no one else offering a middle of the road live switching package.

Thanks for the help again

And thank you, Brian. You've just made the 10,000th post on this forum. That's a significant milestone. This is the single largest and most popular HD100 community on the web, thanks entirely to folks like you. Much appreciated. And by the way, just to help keep things on topic, I have a brochure here on that Edirol mixer and it looks very interesting. I'm hearing it has quite an affordable price, too. If anyone knows what it retails for, please say so.

the price is going for $12,000

And thank you, Brian. You've just made the 10,000th post on this forum. That's a significant milestone.
Hey Chris, what's he getting as a prize? You know like when you are the 10,000th shopper at Walmart?
...:-)

He wins access to our coveted Private Classifieds forum! Oh wait, he already has that.

Ok, so I have the edirol V440 HD now, 3 hd100's, an HD Cam deck, a br50 deck and a whole bunch of monitors. Everything is on loan other that a couple of HD100's. The goal is to set up a live switching system for a couple of tv shows. These are switched live but there is some post as well.

Here is the question of the day.The edirol V440HD switches without a hitch but just outputs to analog BNC Component, it's great to watch on a plasma but how does one get it into the JVC deck? SD is no problem of course. Just trying to put this system together without going bankrupt.

Even if I get an analog to HD-SDI converter, it won't help. I already have a firewire - HD-SDI converter (on loan as well) that does me no good. I'm sure with the talent out here in these forums that someone might have a suggestion.

Thanks
Brian

Seems like you're missing a piece. The out's on the Edirol should feed the in's on the BR50 or is that your goal? What exactly are you feeding? An encoder for uplink or are you trying to master to a tape format?

If the Edirol only has analog component outs, how can its outputS connect to the inputS on the BR-HD50? AFAIK those components RCA's are output only. There are SD Y/C and composite ins, but that doesn't seem to be what's being discussed on this thread.

What am I missing here... I'd be stoked to find out that I'm wrong and those component outs will become ins when you push the record button and accept an incoming analog component HD signal and then encode it to HDV and put it on tape!!!!!!!! But I don't think so.

Options besides HDV firewire to get into that deck HD are tough. Firewire to SDI converters are easy to find, because there seems to be a market for going from HDV to SDI for broadcast, etc. But I spent quite a bit of time trying to find something that did the opposite without luck.

I was even referred to a supposed "bi-directional" device by an esteemed DVInfo maven, but when I tried the link he provided, it turned out not to go SDI HD to HDV firewire after all. Of course there are SD devices that go SDI to DV firewire, but again, that isn't what's being discussed here.

Right now, it seems tough to go into that deck at HD quality from a source that outputs anything other than native HDV firewire. I know that you can do it with a full-on Cineform Prospect system or their Wafian device, but I'm talking about a real-time, stand-alone converter.

Well, with NAB coming up maybe somebody will have recognized that there is a market for converting HD SDI down to HDV firewire and will release a stand-alone product, or maybe somebody here knows of something on the market now that I wasn't able to find. I'd love to hear some good news here.

Tip

Yes it seems nothing converts to HDV (plenty of [expensive] devices which go the other way). I'm guessing because it's technically an inferior format to the source (HD-component or HD-SDI) engineers think no one wants to degrade the signal or something like that.

I would suggest your cheapest solution would be to build your own HD Component recorder, using Aja's Xena card, a dual Opteron and Cineform's HD capture codec and plenty of fast hard drive space.

http://www.aja.com/products_xena.html
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

Either that or the Kona card with analogue in and a Mac with plent of storage and you can go straight to DVCProHD (built in hardware codec in the Kona).

http://www.aja.com/products_kona.html#lh

Either that or hire a Wafien, or even an HD-Cam deck with component input - I noticed the mixer you're using has dual componet and RGBHV outputs. Or take an Avid Adrenaline with the DNXcel board on location.

John, how much space we need on harddrive for 720/60p recording ?
And what kined of file the Xena record? .m2t?

Laszlo

I have an HD cam deck, borrowed it, big $$$, it doesn't have component in either. I can't believe I overlooked the most important part. I guess I just took it for granted that it would be easy to record - Boy was I wrong. This seems to be one big Rubik's cube. And this is just video, still have to worry about audio. Thank-you everyone for their feedback. If you hear of anything else, please let me know.

Brian

Oh Stephen, I am trying to output to HDV tape. Then we will do a little post in HDV, render it out and then to HDCam for broadcast. The mixer is just to save some time in post (mainly loading the footage) One show is a talk show, the other is a cooking show.

Thanks

Hi Brian,

The missing link is, as you said, is a device that will convert the analog component HD from the Roland switcher to HDV over firewire, so you can record it on the BR-HD50U. A box that does this has to contain an MPEG-2 encoder, and therein lies the rub. HDV cameras have integrated MPEG-2 encoders, and because of economies of scale, the cost is reasonable. But stand-alone MPEG-2 encoders has thus far been very expensive. I hope that some nice converter company like AJA or Miranda will build the box we need at a resonable cost someday.

In the meantime, you may have to record to a high-dollar HD format that has analog ins, or to a computer-based system.

Regards, Carl

My thoughts as well Carl. Brian, why not just bypass the deck altogether and go directly into an NLE's timeline or logging tool? It seems like the best solution all the way around. I didn't get what NLE you're using but does it support Xena or Aja or Decklink or have it's own break out box that supports HD-SDI (a la ChromeHD or VelocityHD)? If so why not capture using MP@HL or uncompressed 2vuy? That would be the best direct to air solution anyhow and in the end you can dump your show to HDV tape for archiving.

My thoughts as well Carl. Brian, why not just bypass the deck altogether and go directly into an NLE's timeline or logging tool? It seems like the best solution all the way around. I didn't get what NLE you're using but does it support Xena or Aja or Decklink or have it's own break out box that supports HD-SDI (a la ChromeHD or VelocityHD)? If so why not capture using MP@HL or uncompressed 2vuy? That would be the best direct to air solution anyhow and in the end you can dump your show to HDV tape for archiving.

Hey guys,

Just read through the thread here, I agree with Stephen. Capturing straight to a hard drive would be the least expensive route....kind of a pain in the neck for archiving if you need to or if you have several shows in the pipeline at any one time--storage might get expensive. You should check out Cineform's products...Their codec sounds really efficient.

On the other hand, AJA's Componenet to HD-SDI converter is pretty slick. (I work at a TV station & our best engineer likes it so that's good enough for me!) You could use it to go to a deck w/ an HD-SDI in.

And one last thing, there aren't any external sync inputs on the camera...in order for the switcher to do dissolves, keys, & clean cut everything has to be in sync. Whether generated by the switcher or another source, the cameras need to have a sync input as far as I know.

Anyway...there's my 2 cents...now I'm broke.

I didn't say what NLE that I'm using because I haven't decided which is the best for this appication. We currently have 2 SD velocity systems but for HDV, I think it looks like it will be a Mac. Can you get breakout boxes for Mac's? XLR, component in/out? Will a Mac take HDV in from a component or does it only work with firewire or some sort of converter. Sorry I don't know a lot about this HDV stuff, just trying to learn. Had the cameras for a while now but have just used them for shooting SD. Time for the big leap now.
Thanks again to everyone for the help. If i can ever offer any help, please do not hesitate to ask.

Brian

I didn't say what NLE that I'm using because I haven't decided which is the best for this appication. We currently have 2 SD velocity systems but for HDV, I think it looks like it will be a Mac. Can you get breakout boxes for Mac's? XLR, component in/out? Will a Mac take HDV in from a component or does it only work with firewire or some sort of converter. Sorry I don't know a lot about this HDV stuff, just trying to learn. Had the cameras for a while now but have just used them for shooting SD. Time for the big leap now.
Thanks again to everyone for the help. If i can ever offer any help, please do not hesitate to ask.

Brian


Kona LH... (see AJA's website).. not HDV, but will record direct to DVCProHD, and other formats.

John, how much space we need on harddrive for 720/60p recording ?
And what kined of file the Xena record? .m2t?

Laszlo

Not sure on space - if you go down the Cineform route you need a powerful computer as the card does not compress for this format in hardware. Cineform can record at different quality levels I believe, but I'd check with them.

Either that or you record in a still frame stream - ask AJA for formats and data rates..

Not sure on space - if you go down the Cineform route you need a powerful computer as the card does not compress for this format in hardware. Cineform can record at different quality levels I believe, but I'd check with them.

Either that or you record in a still frame stream - ask AJA for formats and data rates..

Thanks John!

I have no problem with my computers. I use dual dualcore AMDs with lots of RAM.
May I call AJA's tech support and find out the recorded file type, and size.

Laszlo

Thanks John!

I have no problem with my computers. I use dual dualcore AMDs with lots of RAM.
May I call AJA's tech support and find out the recorded file type, and size.

Laszlo

You can contact AJA about the native Xena formats or read about them here:
http://www.aja.com/products_xena.html

check out the PDF link for more detail on file formats..

Cineform is a separate product with a separate charge - read here:
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

David Newman of Cineform is quite active on this board so he would be able to answer any questions you might have (better than me) - you can also search the forum for his contributions.

And straight into the firewire input of an HD100 or deck at 720P?

I just flipped through the manual for the Edirol v440. It is a very cool device, but I am racking my brain trying to figure out a way to go back to HDV live.
If you can't afford to rent a HDCAM or DVCPROHD deck, then the best I could suggest is to use a component HD capture card and capture the line cut to a mac or PC with a fast enough RAID array, and then only go back to the original tapes if you need to.

Once your material is on hard drive, you can always re-encode it back to HDV via firewire - but this would be alot of trouble for a long show.

Of course, you can take the SD S-Video out and record to the deck for a NTSC or PAL line-cut.

For those interested, here's what the back of the thing looks like:
http://www.edirol.com/products/hirez_photos/images/v440hd_rear.jpg

Maybe Focus will invent a HDV version of the MX-4 (http://www.focusenhancements.com/solutions/catalog.asp?id=10) soon? I'll keep an eye out for these types of products at NAB next week.

It is not possible with the BR50 deck. You'd have to split it and then capture it back to a timeline. You could select uncompressed to the timeline but then would run into a hard disk speed bottleneck, or you could encode to mpeg2 (MP@HL) which would be capturing to HDV's program stream but you'd need some horses for processors to keep up (probably liquid cooled dual xeon or dual P4HT on the PC side). It's do-able on for not alot of outlay.

Hi there.

I noticed the thread, and thought I'd let you know that I'm a user/dealer for Analog Way. I'm meeting with my sales manager on Sunday just before NAB to discuss special show pricing on their Diventix switcher. It will be awesome and universal for IMAG (HDSDI,SDI,DVI,HD/An Component, composite, ins, etc), and I will definitely be looking into options for routing out to digital decks for recording etc.

Here is some product information for you (you can throw almost anything at it (in & out), and prepare for your HD integration:

http://www.analogway.com/downloads/pdf/DiVentiX_novVA.pdf

Likewise, my site/info is:

Shawn Alyasiri: www.renaissancevideo.com

Please don't hesitate to give me a yell. Like I said - I buy this stuff for the shows I do, but extend special pricing for sales on installs, interested parties, etc. I know I'll be able to extend offers based around NAB purchases, etc.

Thanks!

Shawn

OMG: Did Edirol step up to the plate with HDV/DV switchers? Anyone out there at NAB can you check into this please?

Edirol Press Release on HDV switcher (http://www.edirol.com/press/html/2006/042406_vc_dvi.html)

This may be your answer...