I am starting out in the wedding video business. I already did a free wedding and expecting to do another this spring. I have uploaded my first wedding demo into my website and did some advertising. Brides have wondered if I have done other weddings before because I soon as they have seen my demo they think it looks really good for a first timer.

Okay..since Im new in the business, I keep my prices awfully low just to get some clients and referrals. Eventually I would like to make my prices higher after a few weddings. I do not want to lowball weddings and make this industry have low standards.

I received an inquiry from a bride and have asked me so many question through email regards availability and package price and my background in regards to film and editing which I responded to all of her questions politely. This even asked me if I have done wedding in the past because my demo looks really good for a first time.

She saw an experienced videographer who was charging way lower than what I charge.(way less than $1000) and told me that I should lower my price especially that I am starting out. How much lower should I get? !!!! I mean I dont think I would even be making a lot.
The quality of the video and editing suprisingly does not even compare to my work despite of this videographer's experience. Now I have no beef with this videographer, if he wants to make his prices lower that his decision. His business is his business.

I know a lot of you guys out there do at least 2 freebie wedding shoots before charging market prices (at least more than $1000). If I keep my prices less than $1000 for a wedding video despite the fact of having done a lot of weddings in the past then I would rather be working at a fast food restaurant then maybe I would be making more.

I do not want to compete on price but I would rather compete on quality of the video. I just wish that a lot of videographers have pride to what they do. If they keep charging wedding videos for less than $1000 for a decent package (brides house till reception), then they are just hurting themselves.
If videographer keeps doing this then other start up business (like me) will be forced to slice up their prices even more just to gain experience. Then the other videographer will be charging way less.

Im afraid brides might think in the future that a complete wedding video package only cost less than $900.00. While they are willing to pay photographers $4000.

As for this bride, I don't think that I would even bother to do her wedding even if I was available. Cheap brides are more demanding. Her wedding is 4 months from now. Videographers in my area may already be booked. Good luck in finding one.

Now I feel at ease realeasing my beef....thanks to dvinfo.

Billy, I am new to videography too and have struggled with the same question. However, I have been in a business for several years where there is local competition and a lot is based on price. This is where I will be pulling my advice from.

My company has established itself as THE place in my town, and everyone knows the quality work that we do. We've been in the business for almost 14 years now and our prices are slightly higher than that of other companies. Other companies lowball us for business, but a lot of the time it tends to be the type of business that we don't mind losing (if there is such a thing).

This leads me to say that you should take a little while (not too long) establishing yourself as a QUALITY videographer. I'm not at all saying 14 years, or even 2 for that matter. However, the higher quality work you do + the quantity you do = the more publicity you will get as a videographer. You will get MORE work (which is very important for publicity AND practice), and the rewards will slowball. However, at some point you will have to determine the time when you raise your prices to what you feel you are worth and what the market allows for. You WILL lose business because of your prices, but hopefully with the amount of interest you will gain in the community, the business that you do get will be quality business and will be more profitable over time.

I hope that this helps even though I didn't give you exact time frames. I would say depending on the number of weddings you film this season, you will need at least 6-8 good videos to prove your consistancy to brides. Whether that is by July or whether thats next season, I feel that this would allow word-of-mouth to catch on a bit and referrals from previous clients would allow you to pick and chose your new clients.

not all business is good business. Hold onto your standards and the reward will come. I have seen this same story play out time and time again. The quality customers will seek out a quality product. And that is the type of referrals you want. Not the client that passes your name along because they got you to do it for free or really cheap. Let the other guy burn up his energy and resources for pennies on the dollar. You only need one good client to make the same money that he does with three.

Hi Billy,

You are on the right track. It is good to know what the local videographers are charging but you cannot let their low prices keep you down.

When we first started we were cheap and then after a couple of years our prices were on par with the more experienced videographers, but that was still too low. At first it was awkward for us to charge as much or more than the more experienced videographers. I'm so glad we didn't let them dictate our pricing policy. Now don't misunderstand, they can charge whatever they want, but when they said you can never get $5000 for a wedding video in Tulsa, I'm so glad we didn't believe them.

Many brides don't shop based on quality, but based on a cheap price. Those are not the brides you want. There will always be cheap brides and cheap videographers, or another way to put it is, if you do not value your work, you will always be able to find more than enough brides that agree with you.

On your last sentence about cheap brides being more demanding. I don't know if I totally agree with that, but what I have discovered is that if you do not respect yourself enough by placing a proper value on your work, how can you expect the bride to respect you? Once we started charging more we discovered that the bride had a lot more respect for us on the wedding day. What a concept!

Well, Billy, it looks like you have gotten some great advice. My first wedding wasn't for free, but I did end up getting around $2 an hour. I guess it was close to free though. The only thing I can offer you that you haven't heard already is that you have to be very personable. At least that helps for me. Your attitude can sell over your work in areas that your ability to shoot and edit a wedding can never reach. And if you are worried about the lower end clients... I can tell you how I approach it. I always let them know what my "packages" cost during the initial meeting. I ask them what they have allotted towards the video from the budget and let them know that we can work with what they have.

For your prices, see what you need to make for yourself and then add what it costs you to use your equipment. When I set up a package, I list the equipment I will be using for the shoot, estimate a rental cost and then increase that amount by 20%. Then I add hourly wages x2 (half for the worker ie. me and half for the business) to get a price.

Most people don't think about their costs to actually shoot the video and even though they seem lower than you, they are losing money because they are not making enough to cover their investments.

I hope that helps. I kinda ramble after 11pm.

—Chapman

I guess I forgot to mention I usually offer package deals. If the basic packages I have set up are not right for the client or they can't afford it, I see what they can afford and then create a new package.

I never lower my rates for the items (hourly, camera rental, etc) but I can re-arrange and trim out hours. One thing I have always done is attend the rehersal free of charge. That way I can plan out the shoot to avoid wating time the next day.

That's all I got.

Hi James,

I just saw your post and noticed you are from Tulsa. Small world. We should get together sometime.

I checkout your website. Nice. I would be interested in your event on 05.05.06, but we are speaking in Detroit on Wednesday and then shooting a wedding in St. Louis on Saturday.

Hey thanks for the plug in the forum (premieretulsa.com). We are all excited about the show this May. The site is still under construction and I'm still playing loan shark with our sponsors but by next week, you will see ads everywhere in Tulsa. I didn't know you were new to the business. I remember checking out your site a while ago. Good stuff. Well good luck with your meetings. I'm going to be premiering a short film at the 05.05.06 but it will be up for download that next week.

O and... I forgot to mention. You have to let the Bride know that what she says... goes.

—Chapman

She saw an experienced videographer who was charging way lower than what I charge.(way less than $1000) and told me that I should lower my price especially that I am starting out.


Old man Jones here in my town has TONS more experience than me and I think he'll do a wedding for around $300. I have no idea how he edits, but I know it's nothing to do with a computer. Probably in cam or dubbing with his VCR. I can't believe an old school VHS camera has lasted this long.

The key difference, and what she should be made aware of is do they do what you do, or even anywhere close to the same sport as what you do. It's what YOU do that will set you apart, and if what you do is unique and distinct then you'll draw people that it feels right to....that the soul of your work resonates with. She apparently is not that.

I guess I forgot to mention I usually offer package deals. If the basic packages I have set up are not right for the client or they can't afford it, I see what they can afford and then create a new package.

I never lower my rates for the items (hourly, camera rental, etc) but I can re-arrange and trim out hours. One thing I have always done is attend the rehersal free of charge. That way I can plan out the shoot to avoid wating time the next day.

That's all I got.
I have always attended rehearsals, too; however, I notice that photographers rarely attend a rehearsal. On the day of the wedding, they often get in the way with the shoots. Fortunately, there are more camera angles to edit from, but does this happen quite often for anyone else?

Tom- I just had an IDIOT Photographer walk down the isle while the bride was walking down with her parents....HE blocked me good, but to top it off....he was not only blocking me....he was also blocking the grooms view of her wlak down. This dude was a real joker. To ALL photographers who read these posts....USE A LONG LENS....what a great idea huh????

As for low baller videographers.... They are usualy jokers as well and aren;t worth musch anyway and are most likely desperate for work. If you produce quality work, good service, blah blah blah.....stick to your guns(your rates). Brides have called and emailed our company and said...oh, you guys are so great, yada yada.......but I am on a budget.....could you do my wedding for 800.00 less than your standard rate, which is over 2,000.00???? Please please.....the answer is ALWAYS......sorry, but we are not a "budget" videography comapny. We don;t even give small discounts......we stick to our rates.


I have always attended rehearsals, too; however, I notice that photographers rarely attend a rehearsal. On the day of the wedding, they often get in the way with the shoots. Fortunately, there are more camera angles to edit from, but does this happen quite often for anyone else?

There was another bride today that asked me to give her a discount because here wedding is placed on a Sunday instead of a Saturday (as if it would make a difference). I have to travel 2 hours from my place ..I mentioned to her that I charge a travel fee since her location is out of my boundaries. She also asked a coverage of only the preparation for both the groom and the bride until they get into the chapel for -2 hours she only needs me? I mean, I create a montage out from the preparation 4-10 mins.

In my agreement I have stated that my videos are 30-60 mins long (maybe longer in some cases) but just duing the preparation till they arrive into the chapel is pretty short unless she wants the ceremony included.

I think this is one wedding I should turn down.

oh a doozy was when a potential bride emailed with a list of demands.

After seeing our packages and all the upgrade options available, she could have easily calculated how much her contrat would come to, but no..

she wanted a fuill long form edit across 2 dvd, wanted a short form edit, then a 7 minute edit.
She thn wanted no less than 500 images on cd, all teh raw material on DV tape AND dvd, 2 cameras, with a second operator for no less than 12hours, a 3rd camera in the balcony with a 3rd operator for the ceremony only..
then she went on to explain how she wanted the multicamming to be edited...

and the best bit.. she didnt want to pay more than $2500AUD (thats about 2kUSD)

The point here is how does one handle this kind of demand/request.
Sure enough there are clowns out there who would jump at this, not fo teh cash opportunity, moreso for the opportunity to get some decent material for a demo.

When we started, we were pretty cheap. U have to be to get your foot in the door, but everytime we finished a batch of jobs, upped the Ante, we changed our prices. Every 3 months or so, after 2 or 3 jobs would be delivered, we slowly jacked up the prices to reflect the experience and skills. Even though i had been in the commercial video industry for 6 yrs prior to weddings, it didnt mean squat and to be honest, they dont care.
I had one bride have a list of questions, soemethign like 40 odd questons about everything and before she even got round to asking I had already answered them without her having to bring it up.

Recently i saw a potential client and she had me sitting there for 3 hours while we went through somethinm like 7 different weddings.. she had no idea about widescreen or ho black bars work on 4:3 tvs. She thought it was a defect. HOWEVER.. she WANTED widescreen.. but no amount of educating changes the way ignorant people think. In this industry ignorance is the biggest problem we are facing as producers. Ignrant of teh art, ignorant of the technical elments, ignorant of the costs and most importantly ignorant of the time it taks for one to get to where they are
In the end, this potential decided to go with someone cheaper. How good their work is i dont know, but i wont be recovering those 3 hours i spent with her. THose 3 hours could have been put to better use editing

Its this ignorance which is forcing me to reconsider my options for my own business.

Joe, i hear u about loser photogs mate. As i compose my shots to convey natural events as they occur, such as fine detail on cuffs and lace and buttons etc etc. 99% of the time, the photgs will be trying to shove me out of the way to get the same shot which i set up in the first place. Its this attention to detial and respect for personal space to me and the client which shows the truth behind a persons professionalism. Iv eshot many a wedding where the photogs have waled in fron of a tripod during speech time.. i mean were off centre on the dancfloor and theres an abundance of lacations to shoot from, but this kind of behaviour is very questionable. I have found that many Photogs who also offer video will do this to ruin a shot. Also many a time have i had Photo/Video combo companies bring along their video shooter who watches my team like a hawke and afew times have i seen notepads and pens come out when composing shots while they take notes on how we do it..

THis kind of behaviour is appaling and to be honest the market itself is already saturated with plagiurism.
Its here when we as producers can take control of the situation and sometimes, i have specifically asked for people to step out of the room due to "space constraints" for me to get my shots due to "moving camera" . At least this way im subtle about it, but ive really had it with the backyard bozos and thats why im looking elsewhere to evovle my business.

here in aus, its probably a different market to the US, most likely the mentality and consideration pertaining to value of the product is not as high here until the product is actually delivered. People dont value video until after the fact, and that itself is a fact we must accept as people seem to think that saving afew hundred dollars is more important than quality.

Billy, I think you should turn it down

Even though I've only one one wedding in my experience, and on an old Hi8 cam, and for free, and it was done badly, and it was for a mate, Something like htat has to be turned down.

I have better stuff now, and I want to return to weddings, but the one thing that surprises me *even from my one time wedding* are the stories of brides who ask too much, and expects everything.

I wouldnt do that gig because of the minute amount of filming. That video will abe about 5, 10 minutes at most? The bride will obviously want something far more than that.... Despite the warnings you give her, the agreements you sign and the reasoning skills you may have.... She will demand.... and demand she will.... lol

Hi Peter

Just out of curiosity, what did you tell the bride after giving you that list of demands. That package she wants seem to cost more than $4000. Wasn't she satisfied with the packages you offer?

I once has a groom who told me he wants to go through the raw files with me. I do this business part time. Does he even know what he is talking about? Raw footages will take you more than 8 hours to watch. I don't think so..It does not work that way.

Hey thanks for the plug in the forum (premieretulsa.com)... I didn't know you were new to the business. I remember checking out your site a while ago. Good stuff.
—Chapman

Hi James,

We have been in business for 10 years. Perhaps you read the quote I was responding to. Your project sounds exciting and I hope to see it someday.

Hi Peter

Just out of curiosity, what did you tell the bride after giving you that list of demands. That package she wants seem to cost more than $4000. Wasn't she satisfied with the packages you offer?

I once has a groom who told me he wants to go through the raw files with me. I do this business part time. Does he even know what he is talking about? Raw footages will take you more than 8 hours to watch. I don't think so..It does not work that way.

Even though she SAID she wanted it al for less than 2500, i gave her the quote she asked for and detailed all the extras as alsit based on the upgrade options. I also sent her a copy of our 7 page contract.
The quote came to a little over 4k, and if thats too high for her, thats too bad. In the end i will know that not only was the $$ not worth my effort, but dealing with her would have also been a trial in itself.

As for "sitting with" i dont do that, as my contract clearly states that "all editing is at the discretion of the studio, with the clients requests considered and implemented to the best of the studios artistic abilities, based on the material aquired on the day".
If a client DOESNT tell me what they want, then tough.. Also i wont edit without a music list in front of me. Ive waited over 6 months for a client to get to me with regards to music, them have them call me up abusive as hell asking where their dvd is...
I usually throw the cotnract in their faces when they behave this way. Mind u 30 emails 16 fone calls, and about 8 text messages later.. youd think theyd get their act together.. no, instead, they prefer to complain about delays..
Ive recently changed the contract to say that if music isnt recieved within 3 months from the day of filming, we'll use our discretion.
Moving on...

If a client has an issue with any of this, i usually advise them that the demos they have seen are all created at my own discretion. If they Like those demos, there shouldnt be a problem, if however the bride is controlling, then i will say that not only are you hiring me to shoot ur wedding, but your also hiring me to edit the piece as well. If she wants more control, then a prelimiinary viewing or copy is provided prior to delivery, theyve got 5 days to get back to me with TECHNICAL issues. If they dont get back to me, teh contract clearly states thaat we consider that to be acceptance for mass distribution.

If they want raw material they pay for it. and theyll only get it AFTER i deliver the piece as it doesnt trully represent the finished piece. Raw material puts thoughts and ideas into peoples head sand half the time they dont understand why youve done the same shot of a cake 3 times.... it jsut doesnt do ur business justice, unless u intend on trimming that raw material.

I recently had a bride come to me and say i want my wedding like a movie.. and we did just that.. nothing cheesy, just stylish visuals elegant cuts, a nice story and a pace set to music she chose.. she wanted a TVShow stylalised credit intro, and a 400person guestlist as a credit roll at the end...
We did all that.. and then she came back to me whinging that there werent enough flashy effects. wasnt long enough (for a 4 hour edit across 2 discs... that made me laugh) and that afew of the traditional elements went on for too long as they were the full events as they happened..
Now all the stuff she has mentioned here as being a "defect" was written down prior to shooting as a FEATURED REQUIREMENT. She wanted EVERY traditional elment, she wanted a tight but comprehensive edit, and she wanted it like a movie.. where do u see flashy transitions in a movie??
you dont...

now this kind of behaviour really makes it difficult to work with these kind of people, so KEEP FILES on what u say and what THEY say when it comes to what they want. Do this BEFORE the wedding day. Their tastes may change, but the onus os on them to advise you of those changes prior to delivery

U gotta remember, the longer u spend on one project trying to appease one client, its taking time away from other projects...

I learnt the hard way, and now im a hard ass when it comes to this as i dont like my time wasted simply because one person cant decide what they want...

I gotta ask you peter, I just started, and I've had run ins with copyright. When you talka bout "recive music" I'm assuming that the couple gives you a list of music they want. Isnt that expensive to get sync rights if they ask, say, Mariah Carey for thier music.

I've had so many problems with a few people asking me about music copyright that I possibly cant asnwer.

i prefer the client gives me a cdrom of their music.

here in aus, we pay a licensing fee of anything between 500 and 5000 depending on the license itself. It alows teh mechanical (sync) and physical use of music (background etc)
Best thing to do is contact a solicitor who specialises in copyright.

I dunno bout anywahere else but here in aus u can head off down to AMCOS/ARIA (u can google search it for info) but i dunno what good it woudl do u if ur not in AUs

I gotta ask you peter, I just started, and I've had run ins with copyright. When you talka bout "recive music" I'm assuming that the couple gives you a list of music they want. Isnt that expensive to get sync rights if they ask, say, Mariah Carey for thier music.

I've had so many problems with a few people asking me about music copyright that I possibly cant asnwer.

A search through the archives here will give you the answer to most of your questions. There's a great article in the library on the general subject of the use of copyright music in videos by Douglas Spotted Eagle.

The short answer to your questions is that without specific licensing, it is illegal to use any copyright music in your videos, even it is supplied by the B&G or is copied off of CDs that they already own. That being said, many wedding videographers seem to get away with it and are untroubled by the legalities. How they can sleep nights knowing it's not only illegal by the letter of the law but is also unethical and a blatantly unfair business practice, giving them an unfair advantage over their fellow professionals who choose not to be scofflaws, is beyond me but it does seem to be a law that is honored more in the breech than in the obeyance. It strikes me odd that those who steal other artist's work without any pangs of guilt are often the first to howl to the rafters when their own work gets appropriated but I suppose it's too much to ask people to actually take the Golden Rule to heart in their own lives. Let your conscience be your guide.

Well, I'm in OZ, and thanks peter, that sure saved my some heart ache. I'll make sure to keep my costs covered when it comes to expensive sync rights. I only hope it lasts as long as I would like it to. Its just that, when I asked for a copyright to a song "Heaven" by Kym, an emerging australian artist, his manager told me it was $400 for 12 months, and I was supposed to keep sending material his way everytime I used it....

I thought that was fine, until his manager started demanding that his credits go first... Like the area where you go "This such production presnts" Then light up....

I never e-mailed them back... I thought I was getting robbed of my artistic freedoms.

As for music theft, I've only ever ran by the ethical rule. If you dont make money out of it, it doesnt make it right to copy... hahahhahah.... ok, lame joke.

This is all I could come up with for the music thing..Good Luck..

Jayme,



Good evening, I ran across this in the videographer community. I was wondering if you could confirm or deny this for us small potatoe wedding video makers...



"Leo,
Of course I have no way of verifying if this is true or not, but I spent the entire morning on the phone with BMI and ASCAP first... who referred me to Harry Fox in New York for a sync license, then Harry Fox no longer does sync licenses so I was refered to sesac.com (both by Harry Fox, and ASCAP) I called the representative at Sesac, and they said that if I am providing less than 10 copies of music (for weddings or small events) then I acuatlly can have the end-use provide me with the music they would like in their video.
If they do not have the music, I can buy the music for them, and so long as I charge them for the music in addition to the amount of our contract. So if I make a video for $1000 and its $12.99 for the CD containing, for example, "UB40 - Can't Help Falling in Love" then I can simply charge them $1012.99 for their video and then give them the CD as well. This is because it is considered personal use and you are not responsible for what they do with the other copies...they are essentially backups.
Now if you want to film a high school graduation, its different because you are going to be distributing the video to over 200 people and you would have to contact the individual record company for a master use license. I hope this helps all of you, and I hope SESAC is a reliable source because the lawyers I contacted even couldn't really help me this much. As a side not SESAC has been in business for 75 yeras so I would hope they know what they are talking about. - Shawn"


I can confirm this. It came directly from me to begin with.



Jayme L. Calhoun Paulk
Director, Business Affairs
SESAC, Inc.
55 Music Square East
Nashville, TN 37203

Thanks for that Pat,

Its just I was afraid that the moment any kind of music is heard, I'd have to pay for it. And in buckets too...

I was told before by an accountant friend who did a litte law while in uni that it was ok if I only Less than 3 DVD's with the music in them, but he could not confirm it. But now that you say its pretty much ok that Making about 10 DVD's with the cost of the Retail of music added on is considerd personal use... Then I'm set.

I'll just make that phone call to the couple who desperately wants some mariah carey in their video...

I'm really cheap at the moment - And she is strapped for cash, and funnily enough, despite all the horror stories I keep hearing from you guys, this lady just wants a video, and even though its only going to cost her $550, shes quite happy to let me do my thing...

Thanks ya'll..... I'll keep ya up to date on how this nice lady will go vampire on me when I deliver... lol

WAIT!

Make no mistake that in no way does this mean it's legal, ethical, right, correct any in any other fashion OK. It's just what I found.. :)

Well, I did say that it was good news to hear, but I never said that I would go through with it, and I didnt take it on very seriously, because I plan to talk to my family's solicitor, and hopefully get some grounded answers.

Thanks ne ways.... sorry for the false alarm... I can hope can I? lol

A search through the archives here will give you the answer to most of your questions. There's a great article in the library on the general subject of the use of copyright music in videos by Douglas Spotted Eagle.

The short answer to your questions is that without specific licensing, it is illegal to use any copyright music in your videos, even it is supplied by the B&G or is copied off of CDs that they already own. That being said, many wedding videographers seem to get away with it and are untroubled by the legalities. How they can sleep nights knowing it's not only illegal by the letter of the law but is also unethical and a blatantly unfair business practice, giving them an unfair advantage over their fellow professionals who choose not to be scofflaws, is beyond me but it does seem to be a law that is honored more in the breech than in the obeyance. It strikes me odd that those who steal other artist's work without any pangs of guilt are often the first to howl to the rafters when their own work gets appropriated but I suppose it's too much to ask people to actually take the Golden Rule to heart in their own lives. Let your conscience be your guide.

I totally agree with you 100%... i mean coming from an audio backgrouand myself and producing musical works for the last 13 years has given me an appreciation of others work, before my own. Being on the "other side" of the coin and producing, you DO feel that your work requires protection and to a point the music IS protected. How ACTIVE that protection is is another question altogether...
With video, its a totally different ballgame, as plagiusarism runs rampant, as many have seen on this board also..
But in al fairness to the video industry itself, i would have to say that 99.9% of the musical scores you hear HERE on this forum from works done by professionals and non professionals alike, is that for one, most of the producers WOULDNT be licensed, secondly the musical scores dictate the pacing and style of the piece (100% of work i have seen here reiterates my case here) and three, the music emphasises the visuals, in fact ENHANCING the visual element. Not the pacing, not the styling, but the EMOTION behind what we see.

Its a simple fact... This accumulation of elements stemmed from the use of copywritten music helps a producer create their works. If a producer DIDNT work this way, THEY wouldnt be making any money.. The fact that theyre making money from this is the real issue which needs to be adressed in teh US it seems

Unless theyre writiing a score as they go along, the fact remains that for a video business to stay in business, the producers themselves MUST use this music as most of their clients/potential clients demand it of them. Imagine trying to market your product and then advising the potential client that you WONT be using copywritten or in more lamens terms, commercially available music.

And this is where the US fails in its system, as there are so many record lablems and publishing companies, that for a company like ARIA/AMCOS to spread its wings out there wouldnt be viable.. the publishers would get something like 5c per lcense acquired, and in the end the paperwork far exceeds the profit margin

Lets face it, if u were a commercial video company using commercial music for an ad, a tv show, a movie etc etc, then more than likely licensing would be policed, however for small cheese domestic use like event videography, it wouldnt be worth the hunt...In aus though, AMCOS is ther to do the hunting for the music companies.

Either way, lets get back to the topic, coz this discussion about copyright has been a bane of this forum for as far back as i cna remember. and from what i can remember, it leads to no answers, so i wouldnt waste any more energy here..

Well, I'm in OZ, and thanks peter, that sure saved my some heart ache. I'll make sure to keep my costs covered when it comes to expensive sync rights. I only hope it lasts as long as I would like it to. Its just that, when I asked for a copyright to a song "Heaven" by Kym, an emerging australian artist, his manager told me it was $400 for 12 months, and I was supposed to keep sending material his way everytime I used it....

I thought that was fine, until his manager started demanding that his credits go first... Like the area where you go "This such production presnts" Then light up....

I never e-mailed them back... I thought I was getting robbed of my artistic freedoms.

As for music theft, I've only ever ran by the ethical rule. If you dont make money out of it, it doesnt make it right to copy... hahahhahah.... ok, lame joke.Hmm... wel for anyone starting out int he business or not knowing, the first place to look is the office of film and literature classification. From there everthing u need to know is provided.

As for this aprticualr demand, any and al use of music, being cmmercial or wedding or even elevator or hold music can be taken care of with a license from AMCOS/ARIA with NO direct cntact with ANYONE.
Also there is no need to keep sending material to anyone and there is no need to give "credits"
You pay to use the music and thats it. How u use the music is based on the license restrictions and there is NOWHERE on the license itself that states that u must give credits.

Well, I did say that it was good news to hear, but I never said that I would go through with it, and I didnt take it on very seriously, because I plan to talk to my family's solicitor, and hopefully get some grounded answers.

Thanks ne ways.... sorry for the false alarm... I can hope can I? lol

hhehehee.. No problem.. As Peter said forum after forum and forum hash out this issue and it's usually the folks doing it justifying it and the folks not doing it not justifying it.. It will just take one headline about a wedding videographer getting sued and then hopefully a resolution will be soon after..

Your best answer for use is contacting the Label/Artist/Performer etc..etc..

hhehehee.. No problem.. As Peter said forum after forum and forum hash out this issue and it's usually the folks doing it justifying it and the folks not doing it not justifying it.. It will just take one headline about a wedding videographer getting sued and then hopefully a resolution will be soon after..

Your best answer for use is contacting the Label/Artist/Performer etc..etc..

Just one point and then I'll drop the subject.

Take note of the threads such as the one currently running on "...Bad Photographer" where it is a common experience that photographers and other media professionals often don't take wedding and event videographers seriously as professionals in their own right. I suggest one reason for that is that wedding videographers are so notorious for ignoring the copyright issues that virtually all other areas of media production, publishing, broadcasting, professional photography, video and film production, etc consider to be sacred. People for whom respect for copyright law is part and parcel of their professional standards and who would never dream of using others work without license (and for whom misappropriation of their own work is food off of their tables) are going to look down their noses at those who ignore it and treat them as wannabees not to be taken seriously, regardless of the talent and technical skills they exhibit in their work.

Hey guys I'm a newbie as well. I do understand the frustration our friend is going through. I have no experience in wedding videos but my demo for my cousin's wedding have my clients impressed. The thing is with pricing is that its crazy out there. I know the guys in my area have more experience but the quality doesn't have the look and feel of film (more home video like). I did one free one and a couple of $600 packages to get my client base up. After that it will be from bare basic of $950 to $2500. Like other mention on this post its about the quality. Those that go with the cheaper videographers will put their wedding day into their hands. I always believe in the saying "you get what you paid for" and that's true. Keep your standards and they will see what an excellent videographer they will get. (On a side note, I still can't believe they would pay a photographer $4k and a videographer who does more work less than $1k; i mean get real!)

(On a side note, I still can't believe they would pay a photographer $4k and a videographer who does more work less than $1k; i mean get real!)

Mike one thing to remember, is that most people don't know what goes into making a good video.
They don't realize that there's more to video than just shooting it. There's all of the back end work that goes into it as well (color adjusting, going through the footage to edit, color correct, swwten and clean up audio).
Many people out there think that photographers (who are much more established and have had control of the event market for much longer than video) and video work the same way, they show up and shoot and are ready to deliver the product right away.
So don't be too supprised when a customer comes and sees what exactly you do, and says "Wow, I didn't realize that this much is done to create a video".

This is why I like to have the customer come to me, as I show them all of the detail involved and what their final end product will look like. So I have a current edit up on my monitor so they can get a gauge of what goes into making their video.

It's up to all of us to educate the customer as well as each other, in order to move video more to the forefront.

I don't normally post in this forum, so I'll apologize in advance for jumping into this discussion.***
After I'd seen the letter from Jayme Paulk Calhoun/SESAC, and my publisher being a member of SESAC, and then having a guy send me a wedding video in which he'd used my music without permission (bragging he'd made 10 copies and given it to the B/G) I made it a point to personally call whom I originally thought was "Mr." Calhoun, but is actually "Ms" Calhoun.

She admitted sending the letter, and originally stood by her position while I was on the phone with her, until I asked to speak to her boss, Dennis Lord. I spoke to Mr. Lord, his whole point of being in the conversation was *exclusively* to defend his employee, even though I gave them several opportunities to make excuses or at least provide a defensible position in the conversation. They couldn't. He originally denied she'd even sent the mail, until she somewhat sheepishly told him she had. Then it was just that "she'd potentially made a mistake, but they weren't sure because Mr. Lord and Ms. Calhoun aren't attorneys (odd that most jr high students know better than her letter indicated). Mr. Lord agreed to talk to their attorney and agreed to contact me after he'd done so. Over two months later, I've still not heard from them, but her letter is still circulating the web as "evidence" that it's OK for contracted video editors to use copyrighted works in videos sold to brides and grooms and their families.

I gave a copy of Ms. Calhoun's letter as copied above to my attorney (who is a specialist in IP law) He laughed pretty good, and said "I hope SESAC doesn't represent you" because it was clear to him, and I think to any person of intelligence, the stupidity, the incorrectedness, and gross ignorance on the part of a Director of Business Affairs commenting on what she now is apparently claiming as a "misconstrued, out of context reference to Fair Use" (I have an email that was forwarded to me from someone whom she's been in contact with).

Frankly, I'm in shock that she still has a job. At ASCAP or BMI, her butt would be on the street for providing such a letter to anyone.
I've since told my publisher that I would like evidence that SESAC no longer represents any of my music, and if they do, then I asked that it be moved to ASCAP, whom I know appropriately represents artists.
I know that SESAC is now monitoring this issue as they told me as much in my phone call. As an artist, I can only hope that they terminate her or at the least force her to apologize to the communities where her letter of stupidity appears. As a producer that strives for excellence regardless of the level of the project I've been hired to create, I can only hope that other professionals will look to SESAC with identical scorn. I simply can't imagine a performance rights organization (PRO) telling anyone it's OK to copy music for a wedding, corporate, or any other kind of video, regardless of the number of copies being made.
you can now return to your regularly scheduled replies. :-)

MR DSP,

I had already gotten my confirmation about the missapropriation of Intulectual Property from my family lawer (who actally deals in real estate) but knew enough to tell me exactly what you said, that it was poor information and he had heard of the letter circulating around the net.... Even here in OZ, My family lawyer and myself found out about it, there must be more who also have read this letter.

In the meantime, I'm doing my best to ask nicely for permission and hopefully just get a nod from the artists in question. Some of the fees i've been getting are in the thousands, and for only a few months, as someone who just wants to start out, I cant afford this - and I never took out a loan, I spent about 7 grand of my own money to get startedand I cant spend another grand just to keep going... But in all fairnes, We are all starving artists at some point heheh...

DSE, this is why I hope that 4Evergroup and those involved are able to get a yearly license for using copyrighted music like those in Australia and Germany etc., and finally put this issue to rest.

DSE, this is why I hope that 4Evergroup and those involved are able to get a yearly license for using copyrighted music like those in Australia and Germany etc., and finally put this issue to rest.

I'm in complete agreement, but frankly, doubt it will happen very soon. It should...and if anyone can do it, I think it will be 4Evergroup. Those guys are dedicated, hardworking people. But, it takes more than that to make it happen. Remember, we're a country of difficult bureaucracies, and for example, if 4EverGroup has to TEACH the idiots that run SESAC how this works before they can get the publishers and RIAA to make it work...then they've got a hard row to hoe.

Leo, I'm confused at your comment. If you live in Oz, you've got it best of everyone with APRA and the opportunities they offer. It's no where *near* a thousand dollars. http://www.apra.com.au/music-users/making_records/weddings_and_other_domestic_videos.asp
If you do more than four weddings/events a year, it's worth it to buy the annual domestic license at $575.00. That's CHEAP~

Oh, I know about APRA, and they are very helpful..... Its just that I have enough trouble trying to avoid annoying managers trying to rip off a noob in the industry.

The moment I say I'm just starting out, or new to the industry, 90% of the time, I get an e-mail detailing several hundred dollars for a few months of licence.....

Hmm, I should really learn to be more specific next time.... I re-read my post.... yes, sorry for that...

Oh, I know about APRA, and they are very helpful..... Its just that I have enough trouble trying to avoid annoying managers trying to rip off a noob in the industry.

The moment I say I'm just starting out, or new to the industry, 90% of the time, I get an e-mail detailing several hundred dollars for a few months of licence.....

Hmm, I should really learn to be more specific next time.... I re-read my post.... yes, sorry for that...

But doesn't the APRA system mean that you get the license through them and then you're completely covered and no longer have to deal with individual producers and managers at all?

I've wondered too, does it only apply to music of first copyright in Australia or does it cover all music used by an Aussie producer regardless of the source or at least those countries that have reciprocal copyright agreements with Australia like the USA and other Berne Convention signatories? Would, for example, the love theme from "Titanic" be usable under the license without further licensing required?

My understanding is it covers all works. But I could be wrong, since I've never had the opportunity to avail their services. I do know that I receive royalty checks from ASCAP that are assigned an APRA code, meaning somewhere in Australia, someone is licensing my music for a project. Additionally, APRA's website says they have arrangements and agreements with "other performance rights organizations from around the globe" and those arrangements are somewhat spelled out specifically. Give em' a call:
1300.852 388
or...licence@apra.com.au

G'day Steve,

Yes, APRA can cover most works internationaly, but it does have ts own limits I've heard...

And I think I really have to trainmyself to be more clear, It was only two months ago I found out about APRA, and It was about 6 months ago I decided to go into film and start saving for a camera and plan my bussines. During that time, i didnt know jack and when I tried to contact several artists, I kept getting offers.... .big ones.... Especially when I wanted to get some instumental music from a guy called Jim Brickman. I heard his music on a mates computer and all he knew was the artists, the song was called "mood music" and I knew that wasnt the title....

I was asked to pay 2k australian to get his licence.... didnt even talk to the artist, just the manager. So then I found out about APRA, and thought it would be nice to share my little experiences in this forum..... I think that explains my previous posts.... lol.... thanks guys.