I am very interested in this format and workflow but I am concerned about editing Mpeg 2, I know what it' like to edit HDV natively in FCP and we now edit DVC pro 100 and that works great much better than HDV.

I have been told that final cut 6 will change the XD cam work flow for the better but will not handle the highest quality 35mb natively right out of the gate.

if anybody has any info on this I would appreciate hearing about it

Thanks

Bob

Hi Bob, we'll try to get some info together about XDCAM HD editing solutions. It is an MXF based file format. Seems to me that Sony, Avid, Canopus and Apple should all have a way to handle it.

Avid (Express Pro HD and Adrenaline Media Composer HD) definitely supports XDCAM. Avid has been a big partner with Sony since the beginning. There are three modes for interfacing the Camera to Avid.

1. SDI capture: Of course this only works with the PDW-F350 for XDCAM HD. Basically you just play back the disc, outputing to HDSDI, and capture with the Adrenaline box. This does now work with Express Pro HD but works fine with Adrenaline Media Composer HD. This is the fallback mode when there is a new release from Sony that is not yet supported by Avid.

2. File access: You can either copy the files over to your laptop using the file access mode (freeing up the camera) or mount the XDCAM device as a drive. Avid can directly import the XDCAM MXF files. This is available for SD, but I have not yet been able to confirm when this will be available for XDCAM HD. The Avid folks at the Snader show a couple months ago said it will be available by NAB. I will be trying this shortly (PDW-F350 is supposed to ship to me this week) and will let you know when it is working. This is available for both Express Pro and Media Composer HD.

3. Streaming over firewire in DV mode: I have not tried this, and there are some issues with settings and such. The last post I saw on the Avid discussion boards indicated that this works from the deck but not the camera. This would require the recently announced PDBK-102 optional board for XDCAM (not sure if that is for the deck or the camera). Again, I have not tried this.

File access (#2 above) is the best general purpose solution. I will post results as soon as we have made that work with the PDW-F350. We will try it for both Express Pro HD and Media Composer HD.

Typo in previous post. Replace "now" with "not" in SDI capture discussion. SDI capture does NOT work with Express Pro HD since there is no hardware for HDSDI with Express Pro HD.

Okay, typing too fast. Let me clarify #3 above regarding streaming into Avid.

For Standard Def (DV) this will work like the existing SD cameras and decks and is supported out of the box by Sony. The limitations with Avid will be the same as with the existing XDCAM SD products. Details are available on the Avid boards.

For streaming HD, Sony is adding support for 25mbs HDV with the PDBK-102. So far as I know the 18Mbps and 35Mbps formats are not supported for streaming. Once that is available Sony it will work with standard HDV support in Avid.

SDI capture and Fille access are the only two modes we will be using. Streaming seems less realiable from what I have heard from others.

Wow, that was quick... thanks for the feedback, Michael!

AVID XDCAM-HD support will come in Q3 of this year. It will have the same functionality as whatever the SD-based XDCAM workflow is at the time of release.

Thanks Jason. Where did you get the Q3 date? Depending on when in Q3 Avid provides XDCAM HD support I may be using the HDSDI capture method for several months. For XDCAM SD I believe file access (importing Sony MXF) was available before full proxy support, hopefully that will be true for HD, since importing files is much more important than proxy support.

The Q3 timeframe came directly from Sony/AVID.

Any way to edit XD HD in Premiere Pro 1.5 (or even the new 2.0) ? I have heard that its possible, although anything is "possible" in the digital world... I would just like to not take 10,000 steps to get there... Is there any plug-ins/codecs that would work with XD 1080 24p data in premiere, that would make things nice and smooth and just a drag and drop edit flow? This would be great stuff to know for me! thanks :-)

Michael: did you receive your new camera yet? How does the low light response compare to the Canon XLH1?

Yes Kevin. See the "F350 Arrived " thread.

Question---Lets say you shoot in the DV mode, can you go from the camera to you computer and save the files in the usual .avi wrapper then pop them into your NLE and edit away? (I know that Sony Vegas and Canopus and probably someothers support XDCAM but not sure about XDCAM HD. Also, lets say you are want to capture HD files----are any NLE's set up to do that.

I haven't been able to find much on post production work flow and would love to know.

Hi David, we're getting XDCAM HD next month. The DV files out of the XDCAM HD will be in MXF wrappers so you need an NLE that can handle Sony flavored MXF, unless you want to use a file converter. XDCAM HD high def MPEG2 is not supported yet far as I know (cause it's different from HDV perhaps?) Canopus tech support said they definitely will be supporting it. If you need something right away, The XDCAM HD deck has an optional card that will make it compatible with HDV non-linear editors. Canopus seemed pretty nimble at new development before Grass Valley bought them. Hopefully nothing changes. As an aside, version 4 of Edius Pro is supposed to come out in a couple of months, but they couldn't say if that would make a difference or not.


Edit: Sorry forgot to mention, You need the Edius Broadcast upgrade to handle the Sony .MXF wrapper.

Hi David, we're getting XDCAM HD next month. I've already tried Canopus Edius Broadcast with standard def XDCAM which works fine, but XDCAM HD is not supported yet cause it's too new. Canopus tech support said they definitely will be supporting it when their development team is done. As an aside, version 4 of Edius Pro is supposed to come out in a couple of months, but they couldn't say if that would make a difference or not.
Canopus seemed pretty nimble at new development before Grass Valley bought them. Hopefully nothing changes.

Thanks Henry----Sonic Foundry (Vegas) use to be pretty nimble at development before Sony bought them! Anyhow hope you like your knew camera---I'm so tempted! By the way, I live close to you guys---what are you main uses for the XDCAM HD?

Good to meet you David. I work at a 24 hr cable news station and we're transitioning from a DVCPro house to XDCAM HD. It's a pretty big deal for alotta cameras. The plan is to gain the ability to edit NLE in the field and eventually FTP stories back to the station without needing a live truck. How bout you?

Henry---I'm run a small production company--We primarily do corporate and documentary work.

I just joined this forum and I'm expecting to get a 330 asap...hopefully in the next week or two.

I've edited with (what is now Avid) Liquid for several years. It works very well with xdcam and supposedly now with xdcam HD. I'll be finding out how well also in the very near future.

Best,
John

Nice to have you aboard---is Avid claiming that Liquid will edit XCAM HD or is part of some future feature.

I have version 7.1 of liquid. Liquid uses a function called X-receive, which lets you look at the files on the xdcam and import them (I think in the native format - even my old silver system has used mpeg-2 for years). I read in an Avid workflow document that Liquid also supports the use of proxies. Here's what they say:

http://www.avid.com/products/liquid/techspecs.asp

Avid Liquid Tech Specs
New in version 7.1
XDCAM HD & IMX support
Export presets for Flash video (FLV, Sorenson H.263), Sony PSP, Apple iPod
JVC-ProHD Rec to Tape
Magic Bullet Movie Looks (55 looks)
DVD export: Auto-loop playback for single stream without a menu
Render Engine detects read/write status of Render Drive
Source viewer audio output routing in audio editor
Record to tape tool/stripe tape loads the current sequence
JVC-ProHD-metadata-stream
New in version 7
Integrated SmartSound support
44KHz bundled content.
Native playback of WM9, DivX 5 & MPEG-4
Native playback of muxed audio/video without the need to demux in advance: DV AVI, WM9, MPEG PS, DivX5, MJPEG AVI
“EZ capture” - separate tool to capture muxed files to a user-specified file location. IEEE1394 device control only. Includes content based scene detection. Capture formats: MPEG2 (DVD/SVCD), MPEG1 VCD preset, DV to MPEG, DV, HDV, DivX5
Single monitor project layout for optimized single screen display
RT linear timewarp, (must be the first effect on source)
Improved and extended export: more formats & presets, easier unified UI additionally supporting DivX 5, MPEG 4, Real, etc
RT Image Stabilizer
Commotion Clip FX (56 effects)
Blurs and Sharpen: Blur, Channel Blur, Edge Blur EZ, Edge Blur, Motion Blur, Radial Blur, Sharpen, Super Blur, Unsharpen Mask
Channel: Shift Channels
Color Correct: Color Balance HLS, Color Balance RGB, Color Map, Replace Color, Tint
Distort: Corner Pin, Hall of Mirrors, Mirage, Turbulence, Turbulence EZ, Turbulent Edges
Image Control: Brightness and Contrast, Invert, Levels, Posterize, Threshold
Keying: BlueScreen Key, Color Key, GreenScreen Key, LumiKey, Smooth Screen, Spill Killer, Spill Killer EZ
Matte: Edge Finder, Edge Finder EZ, Matte Feather, Matte Feather EZ, Matte Feather Sharp
Noise: Channel Noise, Median, MinMax, Noise
Particles : Fractal Clouds, Fractal Fire, Fractal Tunnel
Stylize : Alpha Ramp, Drop Shadow, Emboss, Framer, Grunge, Mosaic, Real Shadows, Video Feedback
Video: Broadcast Safe Colors, Field Blend, Field Swap
New RT effects: DreamGlow, Soften, DuoChrome, Lighting, RGB Color Balance, White Balance, Turbulent Edges
Studio 10 project import (Studio 9 projects must be converted to 10 first)
SD output of HD timelines with RT downcovert on Avid Liquid Pro breakout box - requires latest graphics driver (ATI catalyst 5/10)
Fullscreen monitoring on 2nd DVI head (monitors must be identical resolution)
Timecode display in separate sizeable floating window
WMV (XPM) surround 5.1 export
Scaling size and aspect in clip properties
Capture from JVC GY-HD 100 with 720/25p (no 24p or rec to tape support)
Separate insert buttons for Overwrite/Filmstyle
Clean up (trash can functions in project menu)
“Broadcast Option” features included in all products – MXF support, P2 support, XDCAM support

There's more but it made the post too long.

Thanks, that was very informative.

I received the 330 today and have been playing with it all day. I'm using a standard lens until I can get an HD lens, but even the standard def lens looks quite good, to me.

For what it's worth, I did get some footage into Avid Liquid and it will play back in real time and looks excellent. Trying to do any effects bogs things down. This is on a pretty powerful computer, but not as good as the one I'm having upgraded for the Liquid Chrome I'm purchasing, which is a dedicated boardset with a much more professional i/o box, with everything including HD-SDI. (Taking in downcoverted to dvcam files thru the firewire worked perfectly, and editing those is a snap.)

The main issue for me is, not having a HD recorder of any type, getting the output onto something useful. I'm assuming I can export the edited show (which isn't an issue as they isn't anything I'm doing in HD just yet) in one of several formats to a hard drive and take that to a local post/dub house and have it laid to HDcam or whatever.

Got my F330
Made a test shot and imported the mxf file to my pc trough FAM (file access mode)
The only way I can import files in HD quality.
If I chose to use DV out, the camera will downconvert to DVCAM, and it can not be changed in the menu, like on the XL-H1

Despite Sony and Canopus claims, that EDIUS broadcast, supports XDCAM HD, there is no way Edius will accept the mxf file.

In fact I asked Canopus support this question, before I upgraded my software.
“I am buying a Sony PDW-F330 XDCAM HD camcorder.
If I upgrade my EDIUS pro3 to broadcast, will my system support XDCAM HD format? If broadcast does not support XDCAM HD, at the moment, when will it be available? “

And got this answer.
“Dear customer,
The Edius Broadcast option does support XDCAM HD.
Regards
Canopus Technical Support Team
Canopus UK”

Is there other users on this board, using Edius broadcast, and have had success editing mxf files, or maybe someone knows a trick getting around my problem?

By the way, got the cam. with the standard canon lens. So far I am happy with it. Not mutch CA, despite I tried to provoke it.
Much better than the H1 and lightyears better than the HD100!

I have mailed Canopus about my problems importing XDCAM HD mxf files into Edius broadcast.
It turns out that the person who answered my previous question about the compatibility, had misunderstood the question, he thought the question was regarding the new Edius4 version….
So here is the new answer from Canopus.

“There has been a misunderstanding on this as my colleague thought I was asking about the new Edius 4 Broadcast option. Edius Pro 3 does not support XDCAM HD but the new version will.”

Maybe I will get a free upgrade to version 4!

In the meantime, I have a project to deliver.
That meant I had to find another software. The choice was Avid Liquid 7
So I have ordered, received installed and downloaded all the latest servicepacks.

And it works, simple as that.
Download the files from the camera trough FAM.
Import the files into your Avid project, and treat them like any other media files!

So what’s the fuss, a cheap PC based NLE can do the work….

Now I see if I get so happy with Avid, that I dump Canopus.

One thing though, bothers me about Avid, is the coloursampling on the timeline.
Canopus Will do 4:2:2 at a bitrate up to 270mbit/sek. I know my camera only records in 4:2:0,
But my graphics, titles, stills and transitions will be 4:2:2….

Avid is 4:2:0 at a bitrate unknown to me, or uncompressed, a little to heavy for my PC!

Now I will se what the future brings. For now, my problems is solved.

Brian,

I've used Liquid for years, since FAST created it, and if I can help you in any way with the software I'll be happy to try. It's a highly underrated piece of software.

I am very curious what settings you're using. I've done the same thing you describe just this week, for the first time, and it works but, as I said in a previous post, it slows down the computer dramatically. There's a new service pack I expect to install this weekend that's supposed to speed things up a bit...it's extremely fast and stable in standard def but xdcam HD is a bit of a struggle.

Best,
John

Now I have tried to edit a HD project, with Avid Liqued7.
Yes Avid is indeed slow, actually it was so slow, that I gave up and used it only for transferring the HD files to HDV2 1080 50i, under the process the files kept its 35mbit/sek bitrate. These files I could then import into Edius Broadcast. In Edius the speed was not significant slower than editing in SD, the only issue was, if I would like to play back the timeline, I had to the render the portions with multiply tracks and effects.
So the bottom line is, if Avid does not solve the speed problem, I would stick with Canopus.
There is no way I can use a slow program, who is going to pay for the extra time it takes to edit? I make corporate movies and my clients pay for the hours I use, if the program is slow, I have to sit by the computer longer, for free, and then missing another job……
I have had a confirmation that I am going to receive an upgrade to Broadcast4 for free.
Canopus in England expects the new version to arrive in a month or so and it will be able to import the MXF HD files directly to the timeline.

The way to edit XDCAM is to edit the mpeg-4 proxies, then the system retrieves the full res bits that it needs to do a full res render. Only system I've seen this done on is Xpri, pretty expensive but it was very fast to work with and all you need to route the video is a standard office network.

Liquid is slow but liquid chrome is supposed to be faster, and has HD-SDI I/O. (I actually wonder if any purely software editor is going to be easily able to handle the load until computers and processors get even faster.) I have a fairly fast system and it will handle a simple edit reasonably well. I frequently do complex timelines with lots of layering and that would not be easy at all, but cuts & dissolves, some supers and the audio mix works.

Anyway, I have tried using the proxies and that would work, except that the re-importing into liquid from the proxies after editing is currently broken (that from Avid) and should be fixed in the next point release, they say.

Just as a general note - everyone who sees the HD images from the 330 is drooling. It leads to extra time to clean up the puddles, but it's helping move some people in the HD direction, which is what I was hoping.

Best,
John

According to the Avid rep I spoke to today Avid Xpress Pro 5.5 will support HD Mpeg MXF's from the F350. 5.5 is due to be released sometime in the next week or so.

If this is true then users should be able to transcode to DNxHD and mix and match with other material from other sources. Once edited you could take you finished project to an Avid house with HDSDI for final output to HDCAM or whatever.

Spoke to a Sony rep today and he told me that sony have written a plug-in for FCP that allows users to browse XDCAM disks and import both proxies and Mpegs within FCP. The plug-in is due to be released by the end of the month.

Spoke to a Sony rep today and he told me that sony have written a plug-in for FCP that allows users to browse XDCAM disks and import both proxies and Mpegs within FCP. The plug-in is due to be released by the end of the month.

That confirms what my contact at Sony has been telling me since NAB.

Alister, I asked before but maybe you didn't see it. Where were you storm chasing here in the U.S. ? I ask because I am a former ham operator/storm spotter but I eventually left my radio hobby behind.

-gb-

I saw the plugin working today with FCP at Broadcast Live in London. It can however only be used with 25mbs footage at the moment (not 18mbs or 35mbs). Sony say they are waiting for Apple to implement 18ms and 35mbs in FCP


wmg

This year I chased in Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, South Dakota, North Dakota, Missouri, Iowa snd Arkansas. Best storms of the year were in Colorado, Nebraska and the Dakotas. The tornado count for May and June is a record low this year, just a dozen compared to the ususal hundred or so.

The sony rep didn't say anything about FCP being restricted to 25mb. He did say that Avid Liquid currently had the best integration.

Avid have updated the info about 5.5 Xpress pro and it now states that it will support XDCAM HD BUT ONLY AT 25Mb CBR. This goes against everything Avid and Sony have been telling me and now means I have to look for another software package that will work with 35Mb. Guess I'll have to buy Avid Liquid until such time as Avid get Xpress Pro sorted... or will they just include 35Mb in Media Composer?

Media Composer does all the datarates. If Avid have limited Xpress Pro to 25mbps they have made a SERIOUS mistake that they are likely to pay for.

I'm going to that FCP/Sony seminar in Chicago on Aug. 1 about XDCAM HD. I'm hoping they'll demonstrate that FCP does work in 35mbs.

I'm mostly an editor, working closely with a shooting crew on DVCAM (DSR570 or 450). We're usually working on fast turnaround stuff.

There's been talk of using FireStore DTE technology, and this has not worked out well. I'm trying to champion XDCAM and XDCAM-HD, but as a Z1 user, I'm not that keen on the HDV Long-GoP editing experience.

So... What are editor's experiences of editing XDCAM, or more particularly XDCAM-HD?

How well does XDCAM-HD fare for Chromakey?

Would you edit XDCAM-HD on a laptop on-site?

What happens when one switches from 18/25 Mbps to 35 Mbps? Does this help the edit process? HDV can be painful to edit but DVCPRO-HD is almost DV-like. Where does XDCAM land between the two?

Cheers,
M.

PS: FWIW My current outputs (like most of us) are DVD and DigiBeta at SD, but HD is coming...

Whats ur NLE?

If xDCam HD is your acquisition, Vegas7 offers the best integration and managements system for the format. Specific XDCam management tools are available in the NLE direct and offer the widest functions possible for the format... even wider than what Avid can offer.

So... What are editor's experiences of editing XDCAM, or more particularly XDCAM-HD?
((Im yet to dive right into this format myself.. im jsut experiementing for now and seeing if the BD workflow and archival is cost effective for me vs tape ))

How well does XDCAM-HD fare for Chromakey?

((I havent messed with chromakeying yet.. but i dont see why it wouldnt be cleaner than DV considering teh Resolution. COlour space is identical to what youre used to (being in Pal land 4:2:0) but another thing with CK is what app your using to do the actual composite. If ur using combusiton, u can get away with murder, if ur using vegas, you need to be VERY careful how u set up your keys, else you can kil the shot. Combustion has tools which deals with all aspects of keying, such as lighting management etc, which vegas doest have. A dedicated compositing app will be far more beenficial, irrespective of your source material. U might have thr best source footage, but if u run t through a not too great compositor, then it defeats the purpose.. Vegas is good, brilliant for basic stuff in fact.. but it IS limited to what u can do within a composite

Would you edit XDCAM-HD on a laptop on-site?
((Defintaley.. we conencted an F330 to my dual core 1.73 with 1gb ram, and ran it stright through V7... u can either transfer the footage locally, or edit offline with proxies straight off the BD Deck/camera. All accessable via the NLE and its XDCam explorer functions. incredible stuff.. and becuase of this editing workflow (not archival..) is why im looking at XDCam vs P2.. as opposed to HDV tape based.. i hate tape and the time it takes to manage and archive.. but i cant deny the reliability of tape... which is why tape is still king in this regard..

Ther are many different variations of how ui can adapt your workflow to suit (online offline etc) , but each one worked flawlessly... i just wish i had more time to mess with it and relaly get into the swing of things..

Here is our workflow for longform Documentaries. Might not answer any of your questions but its one way to do it. We had been shooting in HDV and delivering mostly to SD as well. We needed to get into the HD market and bought 2 F350 cameras. We had invested in Avid and wanted to continue with the switch to XDCAM HD.

We are now shooting 35mb XDCAM HD on all our productions.

We have:
3 Avid Xpress Pro HD suites
1 Avid Media Composer Suite

We get our HD onlines done on an:
Avid Nitris DS

Only our Media Composer will import the proxy files and take advantage of the file transfer mode. Unfortunately I don't think Avid is going to have proxy support for Xpress Pro.

On the media composer we simply batch import the low-res proxy files from the disks.
Then edit.
Once we have final cut for online, we decompose sequence and batch re-import only the clips we need in HD.
We transcode to DnxHD220, export an .aaf file, and send the files to our online suite.
On the DS we open the .aaf, which links to the transcoded files. No digitizing.

OR

On Xpress Pro we use the deck to digitize like we would a tape (with RS-422)
Edit.
Output.aaf
Conform to HD in the DS suite by re-diging.
This method means you have to digitize at real time up front but you don't have to re-import the HD clips later. Using the deck to digitize still takes a shorter time than tape because its non-linear access. It just snaps to the next timecode, no FF or RW, cueing, etc.

Of course you can always import the low-res proxies. Edit. Then re-digitize the old fashioned way.

Hello

I have the U-1 of Sony. wen i import the clip i take a HDV file, Sony tell me that i must a transcode to Avid codec.
I do that but the quality ist no good. wen i use a XD-Cam maschine the quiality ist ok.

I have a Avid media composer Adrenaline with HD card

thank you

tamia

If you have up to date Media Composer software you should be able to import the native MXF files. There should be no need to transcode anything.

Avid have updated the info about 5.5 Xpress pro and it now states that it will support XDCAM HD BUT ONLY AT 25Mb CBR. This goes against everything Avid and Sony have been telling me and now means I have to look for another software package that will work with 35Mb. Guess I'll have to buy Avid Liquid until such time as Avid get Xpress Pro sorted... or will they just include 35Mb in Media Composer?

Alister,

AVID has been supporting 35mbps XDCAM HD codec on XPress Pro for almost a year.

Thierry.

well I did post that almost a year ago!