I just purchased my HC1 and have discovered what may be a know issue. In the unit I have (serial #13340xx) bright reds are reproduced as more of a pinkish color. I've tried the obvious settings like white balance and WB Shift, which allows me to get good color accuracy except reds. I've also tried adjusting Camera Color in the full menu, but this to has limited affect on reds. By turning down the color 2 or 3 steps, reds start to get deeper, but there's very little saturation left in the other colors. Turning it up just makes the pinkish reds even brighter. This is not a low light issue, it happens in full outdoor sunlight. My old Sony MiniDV camcorder does just fine with reds.

I need to make a decision fairly soon what to do with the HC1. Can anyone respond to any of these questions?

Is this just a problem with my HC1 or are they all like this?

Are some HC1s better or worse than others?

If I send it to a Sony repair center will they be able to adjust it?

I find it hard to believe that Sony would sell a camera with such terrible color reproduction! There has to be a way to fix this. Thanks in advance,

Steve

Yes, this is a known problem with the hc1. And, unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you can do about it. You just have to play with the camera a bit. I make sure that I ALWAYS do a manual white balance before EVERY shot. That has seemed to help a bit. Also, I think that the angle of the light has something to do with this. I have noticed in the same shot that I will have reds that look pink, and then there will be a red that looks great. I just returned from a trip to Key West and my reds looked a lot better that most of my other footage. I was very concious of this, however. I really think the best solution is just to make sure you get a good white balance. So think about what you're balancing to when you do. Is it a cool white, or a warm white? This will greatly affect your reds. Reds have always been difficult for DV and now seemingly HDV as well. With a little time and patience, I have managed to get results that I am happy with. Good luck!

agree with Evan - it's almost a known-issue but nobody seems to know why it's so bad on the HC1. I don't think you've got a 'duff' unit at all - what would be good is to see if there's any variability between different HC1's.

I've seen still shots taken with HC1 and HC3 and i i can tell you that just going on looking at those still shots, the HC3's rendition of red seemed MUCH better than HC1. HC1 reds were noticeable pink, HC3's were far more red.

Admittedly these shots were taken in low-light, but i think it showed exactly that HC1 has problem accurately showing reds.

Solution for you ? Tricky really. I'm no expert in post-production but would your NLE be able to play with the Red-channel and get a far more true red ? This i think is about the only solution really (apart from accurate white-balance but even this i think isn't a solution, it's just making the problem slightly less-bad).

Other than that, maybe chop in the HC1 for HC3 when it becomes avaialble?
but then you lose mic-in jack and headphone jack...

:-/

I've tried everything and nothing gives me reds that look anything like the original hue. I've noticed that the memory mode (still camera) does a lot better with reds. If I switch back and forth between tape and memory, there is a big difference.

I just can't believe Sony views this as acceptable. I must have a particularly bad unit, since I can't even watch what I tape because of the red accuracy.

As far as software, I have Vegas Movie Studio Platinum on order, but I doubt it provides the level of color correction I need.

At this point I think I'm going to see if I can exchange the HC1 for an HC3. It will cost me to do so, but there's no point to keeping a camera that has such poor color accuracy. If the HC3 gives me color accuracy in exchange for MIC and headphone jacks, that's a great deal.

The funny thing is I did do some digging before buying this camera. I'm amazed that no reviews and only 1 forum post mention this huge problem (at least in my case).

I'm glad I found this forum as it saved me from thinking I'm color blind! As soon as I get my hands on a HC3, I'll report back on it. Thanks again,

Steve

Hi Steven & Eveyrone else,

Sad to say - I have not been able to go further with the problem. I compared my unit with two different HC1 cams in two Sony shops ant they performed as bad as mine. I had a chat with a Sony representative that lead nowhere.

SO - this seem to be very typical for this CAM. My version is a PAL one and the serial is 1075723, one of the earlier ones - probably.

I was silently hoping that Sony would have solved this problem so that it also could be fixed on my HC1.

This IS a BIIIIIG disappointment. The reds are very blueish especially under artificial (fluorescent and bright halogen) lighting... It is bareable under a clear sky a bright day...

The red color rendering is SOO lousy. We should compare our results somehow. I wonder how that could be made? We should find an red readily available objet to shoot under same circumstances...

It seem that also the reds in the stills are almost as bad. I have a Canon MVX2i that I compare with... its color rendering is fantastic, warm and vey natural...

I am very dissapointed and feel a little fooled with all the jargon about this camera. If this red color rendering and the stupidly fast zoom lever could be fixed then this cam would be out of this world...

Shame on you Sony...

Im willing to send some imaged captured in the camera mode if you want to compare...

BTW - Is it possible to attach files in this forum ???

Christian

Can anyone post footage of the bad reds? And hopefully some comparison footage by another camera showing what the red should look like? Keep all conditions consistent between the cameras - everything auto, except for manual white balance. I would be interested red footage with a 0 setting color level for the HC1 as well as a +2 color adjusted footage.

[QUOTE=Stu HolmesI'm no expert in post-production but would your NLE be able to play with the Red-channel and get a far more true red ? This i think is about the only solution really (apart from accurate white-balance but even this i think isn't a solution, it's just making the problem slightly less-bad).[/QUOTE]

My impression has always been the HC1/A1 are "pastel" color oriented.

This is either Sony's estimate of what folks want -- all their cameras are too blue for me -- OR it is inherent to the design.

Probably the latter. Which is why they moved to a new CMOS so quickly.

So color correcting in your NLE is the best -- only -- solution.

Can anyone post footage of the bad reds? And hopefully some comparison footage by another camera showing what the red should look like? Keep all conditions consistent between the cameras - everything auto, except for manual white balance. I would be interested red footage with a 0 setting color level for the HC1 as well as a +2 color adjusted footage.
Hi Alex.
OK here's two stills of night-time low-light shots.
First one is taken with HC1, second one is taken with HC3.

As far as i know these are straight shots, without any tweaking. Whether they were shot in stills mode or they are frame-grabs from a taped section i don't know.
What IS obvious to me at least is that the 2 pics show the pink/lilacy reds of the HC1 versus what appears to be a MUCH better color-balance on HC3.

Judge for yourselves:
HC1:
http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/_images/blog/hamapro/2767708.jpg

HC3:
http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/_images/blog/hamapro/2767742.jpg

It's tough to draw an absolute conclusion from those shots, but in the one labeled HC3 the neon sign appears more reddish and there's less noise.

I just got back from a visit to a nearby Circuit City that had a working HC1 on display. I searched the store for a nice deep red item and brought it over to the HC1 to test. To my surprise the reds appeared much better than on my HC1 and reasonably close to the actual color. The serial number was older (or at less sequentially) than mine, 13337xx.

I debated for a while if I should try an exchange or wait for the HC3. Since I bought over the Internet, an exchange would not be that simple, and I’d end up paying shipping costs. So, unless there are know issues with the HC3, I think I'm just going to wait for it to be available. I've already contacted the dealer and they will give me a store credit when I return my camera.

So am I trading a know evil for an unknown evil? Other than the 2 missing audio jacks, is the HC3 inferior in any other way? Thanks,

Steve

Could the lower noise on the HC3 image be because of its low light rating of, if I remember correctly, 5 lux versus the HC1's 7 lux? If anyone could post actual video (as opposed to a still shot or frame grab) of reds, that'd be awesome too.

I just got back from a visit to a nearby Circuit City that had a working HC1 on display. I searched the store for a nice deep red item and brought it over to the HC1 to test. To my surprise the reds appeared much better than on my HC1 and reasonably close to the actual color. The serial number was older (or at less sequentially) than mine, 13337xx.

Steve

Interestingly, I did much the same at BB and it looked fine on the LCD. So folks, is it in the MPEG-2 encoding? Red is very difficult to encode without noise -- it is possible Sony is filtering out saturated red?

Is this a problem with the A1U as well? (should be--same CMOS, right?)

Interestingly, I did much the same at BB and it looked fine on the LCD. So folks, is it in the MPEG-2 encoding? Red is very difficult to encode without noise -- it is possible Sony is filtering out saturated red?

On the HC1 I had, what I saw on the LCD was pretty much what went on the tape, and then what I saw on the SXRD monitor. Red = Pink.

I'm really starting to think I should try another HC1 from B&H. If the reds on all HC1's were as bad as on mine, I don't think anyone (at least on this forum) would be using one. Washed out reds (to the point of being pink) must be some QA issue Sony has been having.

On a final test I did before shipping my HC1 back, I used a deep red flash card to record the image. I noticed that when the card was tilted to reduce the exposure, the red of the card darken (still to light, but much closer to actual) and noise increased. When I tilted it perpendicular to the camera for proper exposure (and lower noise) the red turned back to pink. Could some sensors begin to clip the red channel sooner than others? Also, when I switch to memory mode (still camera) the reds are much darker than in tape mode (camcorder). Would this indicate an alignment issue?

Maybe there are only a few bad HC1's out there and I just happen to be unlucky?

Give that the HC3 may be a little too "consumer" for me, I guess I'm just looking for reasons to try another HC1!

Steve

My opinion is that i think there must be some unit-variance on this red issue.

I can't imagine that people's acceptance of this red issue will vary so much (IF the camera's all showed same level of the problem) that some would find it almost unusable and others don't ever mention it. So my conclusion is that there are 'good ones' and 'bad ones' out there.

Steve - i really hope you get a 'better' HC1 this time with the replacement unit. I have no real evidence of some HC1's being better than others on this, so here's hoping you get good result.
As you've obviously made good note of the problem with your unit, i think that you may well be in a position to give us a definitive judgment on this when your next HC1 arrives - i.e. if it IS much better, then it would appear that there is a unit-variance issue, or simply that Sony have made some adjustment to later units and reduced/eliminated the problem.

Keep us informed Steve.

With my HC1E, for good reds I set WB Shift to +4, Camera color to +2 and I do a good White balance. In automatic mode, same thing...

Reds and other colors are really good and I don't see this problem !

Here are some red clips: http://www.apollologic.com/movies/hc1_reds/

The t-shirt is red with a hint of orange but the red cover at the end we all probably know how it look like.

I think that a lot also depends on how we capture the video. I have captured using Cineform AVI with the lowest quality (my computer isn't the fastest). Downconverting also looks a bit better. These clips are also taken without any proper lighting. Having proper light set up probably make a difference.

I noticed while converting that the different output formats changed how the colours look. So perhaps colour-adjusting for every different target-format is needed?

I am not sure that the red in the cameras are that different. I think it's more how critical our eyes are. I'm fairly new and probably accept variation in colour-tone but people who have worked a lot with photos probably expect red to be red and not "reddish".

Thank you for the clip Fredrik. If that was shot on my HC1, the actual color of your shirt would have been a tomato (dark) red color. Even then, shooting dark reds produced an even lighter more washed out red, almost pink color. Underexposing the shot, I could make the red deeper but with much more noise.

Today I'm ging to try to find another HC1 at a local retailer and test it against my red flash card. But from what I've seen and heard so far, I think I'll be trying one more HC1 before I give up and wait for the HC3. I wish Sony offered something between the HC1 and the FX1, I'd give that a try too.

I just wanted to chime in. I have a new (within 10 days) HC1 13269xx serial number and I haven't seen the red problem, yet, either.
These may be dumb questions and I don't mean to offend by asking them but...
Are you noticing this on a certain TV? Only in the computer? Could it possibly be caused by the NLE's capture module or the monitor's color calibration settings?
I have looked at the footage in Vegas 6.0d AND PremPro 1.5, on two tv's and a Sony LCD projector and don't see the problem. I suppose I could be slightly color blind in the reds, but I don't think so...
I just shot footage at a State Swimming meet, indoors under flourescent lighting at the IU Natatorium in Indianapolis. You can't get much more colorful than an Indiana swimming meet. Lots of red, too as you can imagine. Even the lane lines are red in the pool. I don't see the pink problem in my footage, most of which was shot in full auto mode because of the fast moving subjects and highly varied scenery as you follow swimmers in the water. The only problem I see is an occasional auto-focus hunt with far away subjects in a busy scene and very bright whites being blown out occasionally in auto-mode.
I did always set a manual white balance. I will keep an eye on this in various settings over the next week or so and report the problem if I find it.

Tim Stidham

From my limited experience so far, the HC3's red accuracy is as good as could be expected from a single chip camera. The red problem you mention maybe limited to the CMOS chip in the HC1/A1. I shot some seriously red objects on my HC3 and was very impressed with the color accuracy. I like CMOS more than I expected. It's different than CCD, but in a good way.

I've decided I'm going to give the HC1 another try, but I'm not confident it will be a keeper.

So far I've found 2 HC1 in local retailers (both Circuit Citys). The first (sn 133xxxx) had good reds, which I felt was acceptable. The second (sn 132xxxx) had washed out reds similar to my HC1.

I've tried to control the tests as best as possible. Both were under florescent lights with white balance set to auto. No WB Shift, or Camera color added. I verified auto was in the ballpark by viewing more neutral objects in the LCD.

The first HC1 target was a dark red box, which looked very accurate on the LCD. The second HC1 target was a red flash card (same as I used on my HC1 before I returned it) which looked very washed out and pinkish on the LCD.

I would say it's just my expectations, except at home I tested my 3 year old Sony MiniDV and I thought it reproduced reds fine.

Well that sounds to me like there is a unit-to-unit variation on this.
It would have been better to have 2 different HC1's in same room, same lighting, same subject but of course i understand that this wasn't possible.

Maybe there was a problem which Sony rectified (quietly..) mid-way through the HC1 production run and so some stores have 'older' units with the pinky-red problem and some stores have newer units where it's better.

- just a guess.

It's interesting that Tim Stidham doesn't seem to have the problem at all.

It's also odd since I bought my HC1 in july 2005. Is there anything related to NTSC/PAL-edition? Mine is PAL.

Come on now, you guys are going crazy for that? This is no $10,000 camera here. its not gonna be a perfect look and if you get that anal about a red shot then you should also be able to color correct that to make it match perfect.


Go to bed!

Ha ha ha... I am actually pretty happy with mine. But it seem to differ from HC1 to HC1 which indicate that there is or were a manufacturing problem. It's possible that they are manufactured at different locations.

That is possible but it doesn't matter locations. Nothing can be 100% duplicated exactly... there is always something different about each one really. not like big differences. but yeah. so it could be at the same place, just different days and maybe different weather environments to effect whatever. im not 100% sure but i guess you gotta kinda expect that a tad bit. Hopefully mine (which comes in thursday) will be pimpin good :-D

Come on now, you guys are going crazy for that? This is no $10,000 camera here. its not gonna be a perfect look and if you get that anal about a red shot then you should also be able to color correct that to make it match perfect.Go to bed!

But what if the color accuracy is (by far) worse that a $300 MiniDV? The HC1 needs to be more than just 1080i, it also should have Sony consumer level color accuracy.

My replacement is on the way, so I'm hopeful this one will be better with reds.

Is there a consensus of conditions that seem to produce the most dramatically altered reds? Full sunlight, indoors, tungsten/flourescent lighting, low-light, etc...??
I would like to do more tests with my HC1 this weekend and want to attempt reproducing these situations. I have reviewed the footage I have so far and don't see the problem. Yet, I wouldn't want an important shoot to be compromised by this problem, especially if I could find ways to overcome it ahead of time.
In the end, I do think color-correction software could help a lot b/c HDV gives more color information than DV. Still, it would be good to confirm this for each other the best we can.

Tim

True true!

While deciding whether to purchase the HDR-HC1 recently (which I did), I read quite a bit regarding CMOS sensors. From my reading, I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that CMOS sensors were actually more sensitive to infrared (IR) than visible light and thus have IR cut filters (as do CCDs as well) to block wavelengths beyond the normal visible spectrum and allow better color performance in a range of lighting conditions (but the IR filter would also unfortunately reduce the camera sensitivity). The filter controls the sensor’s response to the end of the red spectrum and will react differently depending on the intensity of IR (cloudy day versus bright sunny day or room lit by a light bulb).

I have seen posts on the web where others have tested their CMOS based digital cameras to see if near IR sensitivity is affecting color reproduction. One person’s suggestion was to photograph subjects that reflect the long red to near IR region to see if a problem exists (deep blue flowers reproducing purple, deep purple reproducing red violet, and some green pool tables showing up brownish).

I guess that I never expected the camera to be perfect or to provide fixed colors under all conditions (film cameras don’t and our eyes don't either), but to provide consistent color results under the same conditions (and it does). I figured that a manual white balance would be preferable to adjusting saturation and that I would fix color "problems" in post (By the way, I have not seen any problems with red so far).

I just took delivery (March 26, 2006 from B&H Photo) on an HVR-A1U with the same red (or lack of it) problem others here have described.

As a matter of fact, for comparison purposes I shot a red/orange road safety cone (you've all seen this cone on the roads of the US) with a Sony TRV-340 $600.00 new in 2003, a TRV-840 $1,000.00 new in 2003 and a Sony VX2000 $2,500 new in 2003. Then I shot the cone on my new HVR-A1U. All cameras recorded the road cone accurately as red/orange. My HVR-A1U recorded the road cone as shades of magenta, pink and grey.

I'm really disappointed with the performance of this camcorder. I don't think it is ready for prime time yet and will, no doubt, be discontinued just as the HDR-HC1 has been.

If you think I'm full of it, try my test for yourself. The camcorder is incapable of reproducing orange or true red faithfully. In the sample videos I have downloaded that others have posted, even car tail lights are recorded as magenta or burgundy rather than red.

I talked to B&H and they acknowledged the problem but had no solution for me.

I don't think Sony can afford the bad rap they are going to get on this camcorder but they will probably ignore their customers as they have so many times in the past. They will not acknowledge the problem and will not fix the problem in the field either. They will simply come out with a new unit and we'll all be stuck with a poorly designed and discontinued camcorder.

I'll bet that is why the HDR-HC3 with a new CMOS chip really came out.

I for one am stuffing mine back in the box and returning it to B&H before my return priviledges expire.

Too bad. The rest of the camera is pretty good except for the generally soft image.

The FX1 and Z1 are clearly superior in their ability to record a scene faithfully and also record a substantially chrisper image with miminal halos around light sources (this is another one of my complaints and is also illustrated in other clips). I'm not going to settle for marginal recording quality at these prices and put my reputation on the line. I'm a pro and know a lemon when I see one.

It's my guess that the majority of the owners on this board are willing to settle for marginal performance just to get on the HD bandwagon. But I'm a pro and a few thousand this way or that is not going to stand in the way of getting the job handled in a professional manner.

And I don't want to get beat up for video that can't faithfully record an orange, a tangerine, or an apple in a fruit bowl. A pink, a megenta, and a grey in the fruit bowl just won't cut it with my customer. What am I to say handing the bill to my employer after I told him or her how good this tiny camcorder is.

They won't pay me... and that I can't afford, even if Sony can.

If you think I'm all wet, give it to me. I can take it.

But I think Sony deserves it not me.

Regards, Dave.

Well, it seems that the A1/C1 red problem is not on all models. Some seem to fare well, others not well at all. The demo model of the A1 at the BH store seemed to reproduce red decently on the LCD screen as well as the Sony monitor it was hooked up too.

Yeah, it seems as if there are a couple that has bad red. Mine is pretty OK and some clips can be downloaded at:
http://www.apollologic.com/movies/hc1_reds/

EDIT: Whoops, I had already mentioned my reds-clips. Sorry, it's early. :)

While deciding whether to purchase the HDR-HC1 recently (which I did), I read quite a bit regarding CMOS sensors. From my reading, I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that CMOS sensors were actually more sensitive to infrared (IR) than visible light and thus have IR cut filters (as do CCDs as well) to block wavelengths beyond the normal visible spectrum and allow better color performance in a range of lighting conditions (but the IR filter would also unfortunately reduce the camera sensitivity). The filter controls the sensor’s response to the end of the red spectrum and will react differently depending on the intensity of IR (cloudy day versus bright sunny day or room lit by a light bulb).

I have seen posts on the web where others have tested their CMOS based digital cameras to see if near IR sensitivity is affecting color reproduction. One person’s suggestion was to photograph subjects that reflect the long red to near IR region to see if a problem exists (deep blue flowers reproducing purple, deep purple reproducing red violet, and some green pool tables showing up brownish).

I guess that I never expected the camera to be perfect or to provide fixed colors under all conditions (film cameras don’t and our eyes don't either), but to provide consistent color results under the same conditions (and it does). I figured that a manual white balance would be preferable to adjusting saturation and that I would fix color "problems" in post (By the way, I have not seen any problems with red so far).


This post made me think. I have not noticed a problem with reds and since being alerted to this I've really looked for it. I also always shoot in full automatic so you would think that that would make the problem worse. On the other hand, I always have a UV filter in front of the lens, mostly there as a lens protector. Is it possible that extra light beyond what we can see in either the high or low frequency range might be causing this problem that some of you are having? Maybe extra the UV stuff that I'm filtering out is causing this? If the CMOS was capturing UV and interpreting it as violet and mixing it back in with the reds, maybe you would get this effect. I know I don't seem to have this problem, I have an early A1, and I have never really shot without a UV filter.

Odd... I have also a UV-filter on mine. Some of the first pictures I took was of a red/pink flower and I thought that it wasn't quite right color. I am almost sure that I didn't have an UV-filter back then. Now I always have it on. It might be interesting to try without and compare the photos.

...This IS a BIIIIIG disappointment. The reds are very blueish especially under artificial (fluorescent and bright halogen) lighting... It is bareable under a clear sky a bright day...






This is either Sony's estimate of what folks want -- all their cameras are too blue for me -- OR it is inherent to the design.



Perhaps UV is indeed causing additional blue cast to the colors. I saw that very topic discussed here (note the Reader's Comments): http://www.photo.net/equipment/filters/

Hi,

Now after having used the HC1 for some more serious work I have to say that the red color reproduction is SOO BAD that I would like to let go of this camera. I will NEVER again buy a piece of imaging equipment without checking it out first -personally. From any manufacturer.

I have compared the behaviour of the HC1 now with other prosumer and even consumer DV-cams. They all perform ok compared to the HC1 in the red ... orange region. The difference is HUGE. None of them produce lilac colors when shooting pure red objects - the HC1 does!!!

I am now sending the HC1 to the local Sony service. I asked if they recognize this problem but never got a clear answer. Either they do or they don't, we will never know - but they will have a "look" at it.

This "cam-roundtrip" (all the way to France) is going to take at least two weeks. Probably much more. I will report the results (if any) when I get the camera back.

DOES ANYBODY KNOW if there is a way to check the firmware version of the HC1??? It would be nice to compare if they have updated it, especially if the colors are better after the servicing. That would probably be reassuring to know for anyone out there with the same problem.

And HOW do I earn the priviledge to post attachments in this forum? Would be convenient to send jpegs or small clips for comparison...

REgards,

Christian

Christian, it probably take a thousand posts or more to be able to do that. But if you don't have a website of your own you can mail me and I will upload them on mine. Being a HC1-owner it's very interesting to learn more and discuss this issue.

I asked if they recognize this problem but never got a clear answer. Either they do or they don't, we will never know - but they will have a "look" at it.Hope you get the camera fixed Christian. If it IS fixed, then it would be interesting to know WHAT was changed on the cam - whether it's firmware version or some other re-calibration.

As for the Sony centre being, ah, vague about recognition of it, this is probably their policy not to 'admit' since it may constitute some form of legal liability and open floodgates for other HC1 owners to try to force them into a free fix. That sort of thing - just a guess.

Keep us in the loop as to whether you achieve a food result. Certainly from Steve's (recent poster) experiences, it seems that this red problem IS either fixable, or more accurately, not as apparent on more recent units.

I'm sure that Sony are conscious of it, but playing a little 'dumb' deliberately...

For those who have this problem -- what happens when you shoot something that's saturated red and:

1) Use WB shift to bias toward green?

2) Use AE shift to bias darker?

3) Also, if you are shooting outdoors -- try fixed OUTDOORS.

4) Also, if you are shooting indoors -- try fixed INDOORS.

5) Try One Touch on a white towel.

Can someone try these tests and report back. In my DV experience, this is an overexposure issue. But this could be different.

Hi,

And thanks Steve for your comments !!!

Believe me -I have tried both manual and automatic WB, tweaking the color setting and WB shift. So - under some circumstances you CAN get the red more red BUT at the same time you loose the quality of the other colors :(

Adding +2 ..+3 to the color setting seems to help a LITTLE, especially when the extra gain is needed (under lower light conditions) - BUT results in too saturated colors under good lighting. It is not acceptable to tweak such a control every time the lighting condition changes. And as I said - it just helps a little. It does NOT solve the problem.

I have been looking at stills exported from the HC1 using Photoshop and it's tools. The red color that turn lilac is not even close to saturation, there is just too much of blue in the red object!!!

The red and blue colors are spectrally far from each other and should be filtered quite efficiently by the BAYER RGB filter on top of the CMOS sensor. This leaves only a few options, there is something wrong with the color matrix and encoding - probably not fixable swapping the firmware in the control processor. There is something wrong with the CMOS chip itself - or the color filter on top of it.

I am very sceptic about if this can be fixed but I am, naturally, very hopeful :) It seems that my cam really behaves badly. I will set up some pics on my homepage during the weekend so you all can see for yourselves...

Christian

I have been looking at stills exported from the HC1 using Photoshop and it's tools. The red color that turn lilac is not even close to saturation, there is just too much of blue in the red object!!!


This is the way cameras looked a decade ago. It seems to be either an error in the camera OR a problem when NTSC/PAL is generated.

1) Are you viewing on an HD monitor?

2) Have you tried reducing exposure?

I can back christian up here. I can also back up most of the other people posting here.

Let me explain. I think the red balance is an issue--there seems to be a very fine margin of error on white balance/color saturation/exposure.

When you see guys like Christian and I getting frustrated with it, its because we're used to cameras like the PD170, etc. working *acceptably* in all circumstances on full Auto. With the A1U you have to watch out more, make more minor adjustments (which is hard b/c the buttons are small) and just generally "work harder" to get a decent shot.

I've tested two other HC1 units at local best buys and the results have been the same: In some cases, the Reds shift to a garish pink. kicking the ae up a stop only makes the shot underexposed. frustrating, but not impossible to work around. Either way, it's better than the HD10 ;-)

Either way, it's better than the HD10 ;-)

I hope you are joking since the JVCs have none of the "funny" (yet very real) image issues.

These reports confirm my impression the Sonys' CAN yield a pastel look unless you are careful.

HERE's SOMETHING I WROTE A DECADE AGO ABOUT THE FIRST 1 CCD DV CAMCORDERS:

All NTSC video cameras have an Automatic Limiter Circuit (ALC) that keeps chroma levels from exceeding acceptable limits. (Red must be limited otherwise, when a TV separates luma from chroma, the red signal will contaminate the luma signal. The result is "cross color" artifacts that appear as "squiggles" on red objects.)

The ALC in a three-chip camera can analyze the red, blue, and green signals and more precisely alter the RGB signals before they are converted to luminance (Y) plus red (Y–R) and blue (Y–B) color difference signals.

The ALC in a single-chip camcorder can only alter the red (Y–R) and blue (Y–B) color difference signals. (Think of the ALC being nearly colorblind.) This can introduce unwanted color shifts. For example, if a very bright red flower is imaged, the ALC may slightly reduce the red difference signal relative to the blue difference signal causing the flower to become “pinkish.” (Because blue naturally has less luminance than red, it less likely to shift to magenta.)

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The A1 and HC1 are behaving like this, but they shoud NOT. There is no reason to limited red with HD and the CMOS feeds RGB to the DSP chip.

So I can't explain it -- except to say that FOR SOME REASON the Y-R component IS or BECOMES lower than the Y-B component. Either Sony missed this "bug" or it is inherent to the CMOS/DSP system they are using.

I wonder how Sony has been able to sell the A1 to pros? And, will they bring out a new A1 at NAB.

Or, is it a factory calibration issue that can be fixed?

Steve, I think you've described the problem very well.

Perhaps this is naive of me but .... if this isn't a problem in the A1, doesn't that suggest that it should be fixable via firmware in the HC1?

I thought some people with A1s had this problem too?

UPDATED EXPLANATION

All NTSC video cameras have circuitry that keeps chroma levels from exceeding acceptable limits. (Red must be limited otherwise, when a television separates luma from chroma, the red signal will contaminate the luma signal. The result is "cross color" artifacts that appear as "squiggles" on red objects.)

A three-chip camera can monitor Red, Green, and Blue signals and precisely control them before they are converted to luminance (Y) plus red (Y–R) and blue (Y–B) color difference signals.

A single-chip camcorder can monitor and alter only the Red (Y–R) and Blue (Y–B) color difference signals. If there is an intense red or orange object in a scene, the Red difference signal (Y–R) must be limited. This can cause the red/orange object to become "pale" or “pinkish” because the Blue difference signal is less limited. Thus red is diluted with blue. (Because blue naturally has less intensity than red, it less likely to shift to magenta.)

An HD camcorder should not need to limit chroma, but the HC1 and A1 do exhibit a similar problem with both deep and bright reds. To help reduce this problem, be sure to avoid using AWB.

Thanks for that Steve.
I'm assuming that PAL cams work the same way? i.e. that this isn't an NTSC only problem? I've read reports from people with PAL cams complaining about the 'red' problem too.

Alex - yes i've read about people saying the same thing on A1s too so i don't *think* it's anything to do with differences between A1 and HC1.

This is just my opinion, but I believe that, ultimately, the "why" doesn't really matter if we don't have the ability to change it. All we can do is work within the limitations of the equipment we have.

I would like to think that people would do research BEFORE spending a couple thousand dollars or more on a camera, yet an amazing number of people who make substantial purchases (by my feeble financial standards) don't know the capabilities or limitations of their equipment until AFTER they buy. Early adopters should expect to run this risk, but others? I can't really blame Sony or any other manufacturer for any camera that has been out for a while which has limitations I could be aware of before making the purchase.

If the HDR-HC1 didn't provide repeatable color results under repeated conditions (it does) then I would see it as a problem. Otherwise, it requires some tweaking (as does every camera --- no camera is perfect).

I figure that I can throw an ExpoDisc lens cap on it (or the "three-coffee-filter" DIY model) for speed or use a REAL white balance card and accept it as it is. There really isn't anything else that can be done with this "problem", is there?

Well, for me personally, of course I've done research before buying. It seems that no everyone with a HC1/A1 has a red problem, which I'm curious to know why. I guess I'm also hoping to get one that doesn't have the problem, and if it does, I know there are some ways to deal with it to some extent. That, and I don't feel that the red misrepresentation is too horrible anyways, just annoying.