Hello everyone.
I produce Virtual Tours for Realtors. On my site I always post the video on Quicktime format, which I like so much, and WMP format for PC users.
I am still not so happy with the quality of a compressed WMP video. I have watched several videos done/compressed on Flash and liked the results, eventhough the frame rate is not as good as the ones on WMP or QT; on Flash I have the impression of seeing the video "jumping a bit" - but on the other hand, on Flash, the video starts faster and also is not as "dark" as a WMP video. I am wondering if the quality of a video on Flash is really lighter and better.
What is your opinion?

Thank you everybody

you can massage windows media to get any quality you want out of it... if you want a lower framerate, to match whatever you are seeing in flash for instance, simply encode wmp to some multiple of 30 fps... 15 fps, for instance.

doing that frees up a lot of bandwidth that can be used to improve the picture quality, and the wmv player does a wonderful job of pseudo-creating the missing frames, for want of a better term.

when generalizing about various codecs, you have to make sure that you are referencing the latest and greatest, AND that you have the software tools necessary to create the best possible picture quality in the first place.

a perfect example of that would be this very recent article:

"Our research shows that optimally produced Flash video can look great, but that the choice of codec, encoding tools, and parameters make a huge difference, as does how you shoot and edit," concluded Ozer.

http://www.streamingmedia.com/press/view.asp?id=4336

if i were you i'd find out what the actual limits of your windows media encoding quality really are, then think about taking a look at spending $$$ for flash 8... just don't use any of the older flash codecs.

so you'd be looking at:
1) wmv encoding parameters that you are using
2) wmv encoding applications that you are using

Thanks Dan,
Just to add to our conversation, I use a XL1-S for filming and Final Cut Express for editing. I have purchased a Windows Media Player plug-in to be used with FCE.

I use the Flip4mac wmv version 1.0.6

When compressing the videos, this is the set up I use "most of the times"
- Cable DSL 256 K
- Audio at 22kbps, 22;1 khz, Stereo
- Video:
CBR (quality at 100%)
Bit rate : 302 kbits/second
Key frame every 10.0 seconds
Input Frame: Progressive
Output Frame : Rate 29.97 frames/second
Type: Progressive

On the plug-in these are the other options on the BIT RATE: 15, 22, 84, 185, 302 (used by me most at the times), 386, 636, 1272.

My videos have around 6.0MB for a 2.5 minute of lenght. Do you considere it heavy?

Dan, Am I missing something? What is your opinion about this plug-in? Any other option?

By the way, I have the Flash 8, just wondering if it would be "Smart" of me to spend some time to learn it to be able to use it for my porpuse.. Or better stick with the WMPlayer.


If you want to check one of this videos, please go to;
http://www.pixelitvideos.com/video.htm

Thank you so much

Rey Soares

Hi,
I am using Flash videos on my website http://www.travelvideosonline.com . Flash videos provide immediate streaming , customised layouts. But if you are using high bit rate videos, I prefer wmv format, as the quality is high.

Regards
Binu

Thanks Joseph!
My videos on WMPlayer usually have 6MB and last about 2 1/2 minutes. Do you consider too heavy the size of the video? Would FLASH make it lighter?
If you want to check it out, please do:
http://www.pixelitvideos.com/video.htm

I am checking yours right now.
Take care, and I'd love to hear your opinion about the size and bit rates of the video you'll watch on my website.
Thanks,
Rey

Rey - You could cut the frame rate in half (drop every other frame) on the WMV video and that would allow you to cut the file size almost in half (encode at half the bitrate), while still maintaining very close to the same visual quality. (I didn't look at the QT version.)

Rey - I'm curious what camera you shot that with.

Well , I viewed the wmv file . I had to download it , and it was not in a streaming format. Usually visitors may , not be interested in downloading a file , and it would generate more visitors if it is in streaming format. You can embed the video using ......

<OBJECT ID="MediaPlayer" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" CLASSID="CLSID:22D6F312-B0F6-11D0-94AB-0080C74C7E95"
STANDBY="Loading Windows Media Player components..." TYPE="application/x-oleobject">
<PARAM NAME="FileName" VALUE="videofilename.wmv">
<PARAM name="ShowControls" VALUE="true">
<param name="ShowStatusBar" value="false">
<PARAM name="ShowDisplay" VALUE="false">
<PARAM name="autostart" VALUE="false">
<EMBED TYPE="application/x-mplayer2" SRC="videofilename.wmv" NAME="MediaPlayer"
WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" ShowControls="1" ShowStatusBar="0" ShowDisplay="0" autostart="0"> </EMBED>
</OBJECT>

.....the above format. Just change the videfilename.wmv to your filename.
Alternatively you may use Flash as I had done in my site www.travelvideosonline.com , which is suitable for small files, with less panning and zooms.

Binu

Robert,
thank you so much for the great feedback.
I use a Canon XL1-S for filming and Final Cut Express for Post-production.
I will cut in half the bit rate and so forth... Now, what would the correct choices be for these settings here? I use FCE and Flip4Mac to compress file to WMplayer format.

CODING METHOD
- One pass, constatnt bit rate (CBR) OR
- One pass, variable bit rate (VBR)

Bit rate:
- "I will cut that in half like you suggested"

Key frame every:
- From 1 to 10 seconds. I normally use 10. What do you think?

Input Frame
- Type: Progressive, Interlace (upper field first) or Interlace (lower field first)
WHICH ONE SHOULD I CHOOSE? I have been choosing Progressive.

Output frame
- Rate: " I will cut in half like you suggested"
- Type: Progressive, Interlace (upper field first) or Interlace (lower field first)
WHICH ONE SHOULD I CHOOSE? I have been choosing Progressive.

AUDIO:
- I always use 22 kbps, 22.1 khz, Stereo. Should I use mono?

You have no idea how much you and the others have been helping me!

Thanks,
Rey

Joseph, thanks a BUNCH!
You have menciond you needed to download the WMP file before watching it... That's strange, because I have checked the video on PC's and never needed to download them.
I use FLIP4Mac on my Final Cut Express to compress the videos, and I do not see any option on the Flip4Mac to make the video stream. Wondering if you know...

I am not really good with HTML, but would that codes you sent me make the video start right away? Or, is it for something else? Sorry for my dumb question, my friend.

Thanks again.

REy

Rey - I replied to your email. The one question I forgot to address in my reply to your email is about CBR or VBR usage. For streaming video, you should use CBR. For video that will be fully downloaded before playing, use VBR.

Also, you need to drop (delete) every other frame in post, before encoding at half the framerate, otherwise you will have just as many frames in the video, simply playing back twice as slowly (filesize will stay the same also).

Also, you need to drop (delete) every other frame in post, before encoding at half the framerate, otherwise you will have just as many frames in the video, simply playing back twice as slowly (filesize will stay the same also).

I'm not saying your wrong Robert, but is that really necessary? I've rendered 60i and 24P material out of Vegas using lower frame rates and I haven't had any speed issues like that. I don't mean to be argumentative, it's just that I'd never experienced anything like that myself.

I'd actually have to go test a little to see where frames are/can be dropped using Vegas and compressing the render using WMV, going from 30fps (60i deinterlaced) to 15fps. I'm still new to Vegas (and haven't changed framerates while using it), but I do know that you have to do a frame rate conversion (dropping frames) somewhere along the line to keep the playback speed from changing. If you simply tell a compressor to compress material, that contains 30 frames per second of video, encoding it to display at 15fps (unless the compressor does the dopping of the extra frames), it will result in slowing down the playback of the footage (slo-mo). I believe that when you are doing that (and it works correctly), it would be Vegas doing the frame rate conversion (dropping frames), not the compressor codec.

The key concept is the distinction between a frame rate conversion and frame rate change (without a conversion to keep time sync with the original source).

When dealing with frame rate conversions and deinterlacing, especially at the same time, subtle differances in the meanings of similar sounding terms can sometimes make things pretty confusing, even when you've worked with it a lot.

If you simply tell a compressor to compress material, that contains 30 frames per second of video, encoding it to display at 15fps (unless the compressor does the dopping of the extra frames), it will result in slowing down the playback of the footage (slo-mo). .

Robert, Mike and Joseph, thanks again and again for the attention you are giving to this Thread.

Robert, I don't use a server that streams video, it is just an ordinary server, but I'd love to have people watching the video as it uploads in their machines, so I need to use CBR, don't I?

I am using FINAL CUT EXPRESS and how can I delete every other frame on post-production? Would you mind giving me the steps?
I've already tried to cut in half the frame rate and YES, you are correct! A 6MB file came down to 3.2MB! Incredible!!!
I've noticed a little bit of the "chopping/skiping" effect, but I don't considere it bad at all.
Super!
:-)
Rey

When compressing the videos, this is the set up I use "most of the times"
- Cable DSL 256 K
- Audio at 22kbps, 22;1 khz, Stereo
- Video:
CBR (quality at 100%)
Bit rate : 302 kbits/second
Key frame every 10.0 seconds
Input Frame: Progressive
Output Frame : Rate 29.97 frames/second
Type: Progressive

On the plug-in these are the other options on the BIT RATE: 15, 22, 84, 185, 302 (used by me most at the times), 386, 636, 1272.

your wmv video clip started playing almost immediately, i did *not* have to wait for it to download to start playing.

it appears to be sourced as an "http" file(not rtsp), which means that it is probably not served from a windows media server, but you need to confirm that on your end... if it isn't served off of a media server, you can use vbr encoding to get better quality at a lower average bitrate... you'll save bandwidth and get better picture quality that way.

it looks like your stream named "CORRECTED" is coming in at 410kbps, 320x240(??) frame size... it looks passable over here.

always use two-pass encoding whenever possible, even with the audio stream.

always encode the fields to match what it was shot with, in the case of dv, i think that would be "lower field first"... progressive is the only choice, because computer monitors are not interlaced.

do NOT drop any frames in post, you should do that only with the web video encoder... it's designed for that purpose, you can't compare what it does to what happens in post... i covered this already.

I don't know a whole lot about web video compression but these are the settings I use. I pretty much just guessed what values to use and ended up with this on my first try. I've been using it ever since, although there are probably better ways to do it.

Audio encoding mode: CBR
Video encoding mode: CBR

Audience: 573.03 Kbps
Audio codec: Windows Media Audio 9.1
Audio format: 64 kbps, 48 kHz, stereo CBR
Video codec: Windows Media Video 9
Video bit rate: 500 Kbps
Video size: 428 x 240
Frame rate: 60 fps
Key frame: 5 s
Image quality: 100
Buffer size: 5 s

Since my videos are downloaded (never streamed), I should be using VBR?

If anyone's interested, you can check out my web work here: http://underthebridge.mumps.ca/ If you do, check out episode 9. It's half an hour long and I think a little over 110MB.

Dan, thanks again for the attention!
Overall, do you think I am setting the videos "pretty good" ?

Thanks,
Rey

mark, are you encoding with a mac? you should be able to make that 110mb file significantly smaller by using vbr instead of cbr, with the same picture quality.

always use 2-pass encoding as well! even with the audio.

i don't understand the 60 fps setting? is it a high-def source file? my computer locked up when i tried to play it, lol.

rey, i think that you are pretty close! the key is whether or not you are using 2-pass encoding... i was amazed at how good the audio sounded, for only 22kbps bitrate.

>>><OBJECT ID="MediaPlayer" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" CLASSID="CLSID:22D6F312-B0F6-11D0-94AB-0080C74C7E95"<<<

joe, that is the old class id, there is a newer class id for the embedded windows media player.

Rey, If your goal is to reduce your wmv file sizes you can reduce the fps output from the windows media encoding process. I looked at your video and while you pan around and zoom in and out this is not motion that requires 29fps. When selecting a frame rate for your encoded video just try to select a frame rate that is a multiple of the original or the encoded video can jump or get choppy - try dropping the encoded fps until you do not like the movement in your video. Keep the bit rate as high as you can to keep the image quality -- this will be a balance with the file size.

Adjusting the audio can also have major impacts on the video size. Try dropping to mono, and drop the audio quality until you reach a level that you do not like the sound. In the future, play around with different music, the type of music can be a big factor in how low you can drop the encoding to achieve smaller files - music files that are too complex or reliant on stereo play back will require higher encoding (larger files). If you just have voice, use the WM9 Voice Codec as it create small files with good quality - won't work well with music files.

Back to your question of Flash Video. flv -- I have been impressed with the flv format and I think it would be a good format for your content. It supports a progressive download option which would be similar to the way you are playing the windows media file. The biggest advantage of the flv format would be that you could offer a single format that would be support by PCs and Macs and various browsers.

Rey, I don't think your file sizes are big at all. When your viewers are watching the video all their connection has to do is download the entire video by the time the video is over. Meaning if the video is 3 minutes long the video has to download within 3 minutes, 3 minutes is plenty of time to download 6mb over broadband, at least in my experiences.

We encode our tours at full frame rate, anything less makes the video jitter, and in my opinion not easily watchable. Our videos range anywhere from 6mb up to 20mb. Typically our videos play within 5 to 10 seconds, they may pause in the middle on a slower connection, but I believe it is worth having good quality, and my realtors agree too.

You can check out our video at www.wowvideotours.com let me know how they play on your connection.

-Todd

Hey Todd,
I have sent you an email in case you don't get to check this thread...
I have checked your work and liked so much... Inspiration is always great.
So, in your opinion I shouldn't be worrying about my file sizes. I was just trying to improve quality and resolution.
The video I watched on your website has a pretty large window (larger than mine) and it didn't delay at all to start playing. That file is a WM format, isn't it? I was wondering about the settings you used on that one.
How big is that file?

Whenever you have a chance, please check this video and let me know if it is too dark in your opinion. Does it need to be corrected somehow?

www.pixelitvideos.com/c56792
Have a great weekend!
Rey

Hey Richard, thanks for your contribution to this thread!
No words to describe how thankful I am for having yours and everyone else's feedback on this important subject!
Richard, would you consider a 2.5 minute video compressed down to a 6MB too heavy for Internet?
Should I be worrying about this windows Media file if the "quality" is pretty good? Will I have a never ending task of trying to make the file as small as possible, or should I just be happy with a 6MB output?
If you have time to check this video, I'd be very happy:

ww.pixelitvideos.com/c56792
Would you say this video is too dark? What's your professional opinion about it?

Thanks again and have a great weekend.
Rey

Hey Richard, would you consider a 2.5 minute video compressed down to a 6MB too heavy for Internet? Thanks again and have a great weekend.
Rey

Rey, Yes, it is a never ending chase to balance quality, size and performance to reach your audience. The key is to understand your audience and make sure you are providing a video that they are able to view without difficulty. As a comparison, I just finished a program that is 6+ minutes, 14 fps, 190bit rate for high speed, video size 480x280 and the file size is 9MB. I continued to tweak the size to the point I felt the quality was being dropped too low and stopped. I need to focus on size because it will be viewed by tens-of-thousands during the next 30-days and that cost $$$. If I had a small audience I would have left quality higher and thus the file size larger.

As a quick test, encode your video without the audio. This will immediately tell you where to spend your time to reduce the file size. You might get a bigger return by reducing the audio quality.

On darkness, the video looks ok to me. However, you raise a good point. It is important to try your videos on multiple computers, I often find that the flat screens on my video editing station are not representative (too bright) of the normal computer. We actually maintain old computers, with old players, old codecs, old operating systems, multiple browsers to test programs on. I have an old crippled Win 98 machine that is kept crippled just to be used as a test machine.

If you go to the macromediadobe site there is a free .flv encoder that works staight out of FCP and FCE it might make this a little easier.

If you go to the macromediadobe site there is a free .flv encoder that works staight out of FCP and FCE it might make this a little easier.
Here's a link: Creating Flash Video (FLV) Files with Flash Video Exporter (http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/flash/articles/flv_exporter.html)

Note that to use the plugin you must have Flash MX Professional 2004. If you have Flash Professional 8, there is a new guide for encoding Flash video: Flash Video Learning Guide (http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/flash/articles/video_guide.html)

Hey Jason and Christopher, thanks a bunch for your inputs!
I have gotten the plug-in for Flash and it has been listed under the Exporting options on the Final Cut Express. That's great!
I have never used Flash before and in your opinion, what would be a "good" setting? What kind of bit rate and things like that would you consider using to compress a 3-minute video? I wouldn't know where to start from...
Would you mind giving me some suggestions?
Thanks again,
Rey

I have never used Flash before and in your opinion, what would be a "good" setting? What kind of bit rate and things like that would you consider using to compress a 3-minute video? I wouldn't know where to start from...
Would you mind giving me some suggestions?
Thanks again,
Rey

Rey, I like the flv format. The answers always depend on your audience and their connection speeds. Some suggestions to get started:

* Frame Rate - no need to be more than 24 fps, try to stay with a multiple of the original video
* CBR provides a lower/more consistent stream for slower speed connections
* Bit rate: start with something in the 400kbps range (requires broadband)
* Pre-load - hopefully you can control the pre-load buffer, start with @ 10% which means that 10% will be downloaded before it begins playing
* Use two-pass encoding
* Bring down the bit rates on the audio as far as you can and still maintain a good sound

I am not familiar with FCP parameters but I would assume they have many of the same that other encoders use.

Hope this helps