We've been discussing this issue on the 'footage' thread but that thread is getting very long.

Apparently MP4CAM2AVI has been great for converting earlier Xacti models' MP4 to AVI - in fact those models are even mentionned on MP4CAM2AVI's site - but it seems the programme is thrown by the new model's footage.

I've e-mailed MP4CAM2AVI about this and their reply is "Thanks, i'm planning to make an update with this camera support."

Meanwhile, it has emerged that running the MP4 files through MP4Box can prep them for MP4CAM2AVI - though this hasn't worked for me yet. Think I'm just doing it wrong.

Anyway, clearly we can get AVIs from the MP4s - but I just wanted to start a thread with a view to discovering good general edit workflows including what NLEs.

Obviously, the ideal would be to drag our MP4s straight into an NLE. I've heard that MP4 might cause NLEs to run slow, though.

Just looking for opinions, ideas and - as the cam becomes more available - experiences.

Until we actually have one in our hand we can simply test with Joseph's samples from the 'footage' thread.

It's a sweet little camera and we need a sweet little post-production route!

Graham

good thing your email to Sourceforge !!

as i said in the other post the converting mp4 files through the steven-learnt process works

1) demux the mp4 file with MP4BOX, you gotta download yamb with installer here (http://yamb.unite-video.com/download.html)

2) import into yamb , click demux, then you get another MP4 file

3)put the file into MPACAM2AVI

4) that's it

result converted .avi file :http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0DIP0D68EZY391GEFDQAQ854Q7

original .mp4 file : http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=067CM8VZ2H321O907FTY7RRQV

there might have a less time consuming process but as for now, and thanx to Steven Mingam that is the best one we know without much loss of quality

I've had no problem editing MP4 footage in Vegas 6.0; it has all been clips generously posted by members -- I have not yet received my HD1 from Amazon. I have chosed HDV 1280 x 720 as the template from the properties menu.

The issue for me has been what to render it as. Vegas does not offer MP4. I have tried WMV9, which works but seems to take a long time to render. I have also used NTSC Widescreen stream for burning to DVD so that I can view the footage on my HDTV, but there is naturally a loss of resolution in going to 720 x 480.

I have assumed that rendering to HDV requires burning to tape, and I don't have an HDV camcorder or deck.

interesting, i didn't know vegas would deal with mp4 files
and can u render your final video project into .avi with Vegas ???

That's good news about Vegas Peter. Some questions:

1. Rendering WMV9, you didn't say much about quality, any loss?

2. When you render to NTSC Widescreen and DVD, is the resolution loss visible on your computer - like it is on your HDTV?

3. When you work with the HD1's MP4 files in Vegas, please just clarify that you are working with the files straight from Joseph, without re-structuring them or anything.

4. Is Vegas slow when you work with the HD1's files?

5. Can you output the MP4 as PAL from Vegas? If so, how does it handle frame rate change from 30 to 25?

Thanks!

Graham

Let me begin with a comment. I was a photographer for LIFE magazine in the "good old days", and the discussions we had then about whether 35mm was "good enough" sounded much like what we're reading in these threads. I think the answer is much the same -- yes, if you're careful (e.g., fill the frame), and for many but not all purposes.

Your questions: WMV9 looks the same as the original MP4 on the computer; I don't have a way to show it on the HDTV yet (interested in the Kiss600 and other players not yet available).

MP4 rendered to Mpeg2 for DVD has less resolution and shows it on the computer and on the HDTV. I ran some of Joseph's clips (thank you, Joseph) in a loop of each on the computer and the difference is clear.

I have not altered any of the files I have worked with. Vegas is slow rendering WMV9, but my PC is only 1.7 Ghz.
The segments I have worked with are understandably short, so it is a little hard to tell about timing ( for example, it takes longer to burn the lead out on a DVD than to burn the tracks themselves).

Vegas offers PAL outputs, but I have no way or reason to try them. It is a very popular program and must be used in Europe. It will render to .avi.

Another comment: We are all looking for something different here. I am getting lazy in old age and want a very portable camera that will take video and stills that look better than what I am getting with a Sony PC1000 (which is not bad) and as good as a Panasonic FZ20. My test is how they look on a 60 inch Sony HDTV (that has a card reader built in for stills). For now, I am not willing to put up with the hassle of HDV (which also has lousy stills), so I eagerly await my Sanyo HD1 that, in Steve Sanders' words, is "a blast to use". There is a reason that he jumped his long queue of cameras to test: he likes it!

I don't have a summer house or boat or plane, so if Samsung or Panasonic or anyone else makes a better one, I will buy that too.

Cheers, Peter

I have also been using Vegas 6 as mentioned above. Just set the project up using the 720 30p preset and drop it on the timleine from the Vegas Explorer window.I have my Sony 20" LCD monitor at native 1280 x 1080 resolution which can play the footage at full size 1280 x 720, but not real time. A RAM preview will allow some realtime playback when desired for sections depending on how much RAM you have. I set the Vegas Video Preview window to Preview Auto and size it to half size and it gives about 8 FPS playback with MP4. I then used the built in Cineform codec and resaved the MP4s to AVIs and it it then plays the AVIs in real time at 29.97 and still looks great because of the Cineform wavelet codec.

I also made a widescreen DVD and it looked okay, but not like the computer LCD becuase I only have a stnadard TV at 4:3 NTSC. I tried the HDV PAL preset on a render using the same Cineform codec and it worked okay. I do not have a PAL set to watch it on. It obviuosly has to drop and blend some frames to get down to 25p. I did replay the PAL cineform clip on a Vegas 720 25p timeline and looked good and played real time with the setup I mentioned above.

The renders go real fast using the Cineform. I used all the files that have been posted here for download (mostly Joseph:s)

Gary
Sony VAIO 3G Pentium 4 with 1Gig of RAM. Extra Internal IDE 7200 hard drive.

>1. Rendering WMV9, you didn't say much about quality, any loss?
>2. When you render to NTSC Widescreen and DVD, is the resolution loss >visible on your computer - like it is on your HDTV?
You can render wide screen one of two ways. If you letterbox the video, you will lose some resolution. It you leave the video full size, but let the video be streched out by the DVD player, you keep full resolution. The computer will use the same resolutions as a DVD player.
>3. When you work with the HD1's MP4 files in Vegas, please just clarify >that you are working with the files straight from Joseph, without re->structuring them or anything.
Yes they will drop right in, if you have a current version of Quicktime on the machine.
>4. Is Vegas slow when you work with the HD1's files?
It was slow to preview playback of the files on my P4 2.5, but fast to render. Playback of the MP4 videos in Quicktime was also slow on that machine. My Pentium M 2.19 was much better. Might have to do with the video card also.
>5. Can you output the MP4 as PAL from Vegas? If so, how does it handle >frame rate change from 30 to 25?
Yes, but I have not done it.

Most of the footage I have seen looks pretty good, but I have some big concerns about the camera moving. Such as pans and zooms, even on a tripod. It doesn't look too good from what I have seen so far. With the camera static, motion in the scene looks good, like the train shot posted.

Gary

I suggest using Vegas with the Cineform codec to edit in real time with half size preview window. You can always treat it as a proxy edit and replace the footage with the original MP4s at the end for rendering if you think the Cineform is not as good (hard to tell the difference though). Or use an app like Gear Shift from VASST that will do the same with making poxies.

Gary

Thanks for answering those questions everyone!

"It is a very popular program and must be used in Europe."

I suppose that would often be 25fps footage to begin with though.

I was wondering about how Vegas handles a 30fps source outputted at 25fps - I know Sonic DVDit 6 and TMPGENC Xpress 3.0 both deliver a stuttering picture when you output Joseph's clips as PAL.

Anyway, I'll try it myself.

I could FTP a PAL clip from Vegas if you like. Joseph, can you shoot and post some clips that are less exposed? Almost all of the clips I have seen have too much blow out on the whites. All the skies appear white instead of gray or blue. And possibly some nice pan shots at different speeds from a fluid head tripod.

Gary

"I could FTP a PAL clip from Vegas if you like."

Gary that would be great, because if I discover in advance that there is something drastic like stuttering occuring, I may shift my focus onto other possible NLEs. So you'd be saving me a lot of time.

Where to send it? I have one MP4 clip from Joseph (bushes near a building and parking lot with the bushes blowing in the wind) clip using Cineform codec that ended up as 85mb and the same clips as an uncompressed AVI that ended up as 820 mb, both using Vegas rendered as 720p25PAL

Gary
I also have the Train shot with similar file sizes in PAL25
Remember, Vegas's Video Preview window needs to be 640 x 360 set to Preview (Auto) for real time playback.

Thanks - I am e-mailing you.

Gary, I don't know if I will be able to post more clips any time soon. The camera seems to over expose easily. I was trying to get the right exposure in the shots posted. I have tried all auto, manual, shutter priority, and aperture priority. Perhaps the exposure adjustment needs be turned down some? Or perhaps it is the latitude of the CCD?

Free download for anyone for Vegas6 and DVDA. It works for 2 or 4 weeks (don't remember) at full power.

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/download/step1.asp?catid=1

Gary

Joseph,
I understand. It probably needs to be set in Full Manual because the other modes always sets one area automatically over another. Iris and speed. I am sure we "all" appreciate everything you have done so far for the forum. :-)

Gary

Yeah, well done Joseph.

We'd have much less of a perspective, if not for your tests.

Gary, I've e-mailed you.

Graham, uploading two clips now. Will email you when done.

I thought someone mentioned the first two clips posted of the baby in the park and the kid with ice cream were not shot with the Sanyo?? Anyone know the truth, or have all posted clips been shot with what is being sold to the public?

Gary

Looks like authentic HD1 footage to me - but admittedly I haven't seen enough HD1 footage to be sure.

The shot of the child is on a tripod and it has been carefully set manually which sort of transforms it. Maybe that's why people are doubtful. I suspect it's the cam being used right and it just looks great..

Having said that, I remember that when Sony's first HDV cam was at a show, they had HD sample footage playing on a screen which wasn't shot with the camera! The model camera they had at the show was just that - an empty model. Presumably they weren't ready to shoot test footage.

Someone asked why the footage wasn't from the cam and were told it was because it was test footage.

There are more interesting HD1 clips on a Japanese site. One I found very interesting is at http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/20060210/115347/sany0041.mp4
Notice the very small people walking at the top of the background wall. Tell me this isn't better than DV!

Like any new technology, it has its pluses and minuses, and they show on the clips at this site.

THANX FOR THAT file...is it the heat or what all this blurr above the water and all over the video ??

where can i download other of this type of file ??

i tried to go to the main page of the site where this video was but as i don't read japanese i couldn't find anything

at least if u give me a link to a forum then i will locate the .mp4 extension links to download files

thanx

The site with thumbnails you can click for the files is at:
http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/20060210/115347/index3.shtml

You can get a crude translation by using the google toolbar and clicking "translate this page".

I found this site by setting the google preferences to search for Sanyo HD1 on sites in Japanese, then clicking "translate this page" next to the citation.

The problem with the mp4 files from the Sanyo HD1 for editing is not that they are mp4 (the container), editing softwares could handle that pretty easily, it's that they use mpeg4 compression technology, and that's a problem ! It means that the video use an intra/inter frame compression scheme (you're lucky, no bidirectional predicted-frame here) and unlike mpeg2, this scheme is not fixed. I.e, you can have like 200 frames depending on one. And that's a problem for editing because you can't cut that I-frame without reencoding the whole file.

The best way to edit those HD1 files is to decompress them to an I-frame only, lossless codec, like HuffYUV, put them in an AVI container, and do like you always do (you will need 15Mo/s for the video tough)...
MP4 is a great technology advancement, it's just not suitable (and designed) for editing purpose (and the HD1 is sure not designed for that too.)

Btw, for Graham and Marc :
i found another tool to transcode mp4 to AVI file, in a more intuitive way : http://mp4ui.sourceforge.net/
Right click on the track you want to export and use ... export :)
Still one file at time tough.

Can anyone comment on how imovieHD handles this compressed mpeg4 footage?

A previous message ....
Graham,
I am using Apple hardware.
I put (drag and drop) all the Sanyo, Joseph & Co mp4 Clips into Imovie HD 5 (720p setting), exported the project to IDVD (Pal setting), and I got a playable PAL SD DVD (1 hour later on my PB G4 1.5). The quality is comparable to regular DVDs.
Here are the VOB features : mpeg-2, 720x576, 8000 kbps, 25 fps.

Luc-Henri

Yes, but did he actually edit the material?

Thanks for the guidance Marc!

Have just opened the kid with the ice-cream in Vegas.

PROJECT SETTINGS: HDV 720-30p

Then rendered...

SAVE AS TYPE: Video for Windows (AVI)

TEMPLATE: HDV 720-25p intermediate

It looks great. Not perfect, but very good and still at same size etc.

Sonic DVDit 6 subsequently has no problem accepting it as part of a PAL DVD project.

Graham

Yes, you can add usual transitions, effects, music, swap the clips etc... I did not test the cuts (they used to be tricky with mp4, and the avaliable clips are short) but I shall do.

Luc-Henri

PS the cut works well ..

Graham, Gary and others have mentioned the authenticity of the "Baby/Boy" clips. I keep looking for a video equivalent of the EXIF file on digital stills that contains all the information about the camera, exposure, etc.

I have heard that you can find this "metadata" in Vegas, but have not yet figured out how to do so. Any suggestions?

I have been very impressed with the quality of the stills taken with the HD1. The only negative seems to be the weak flash. This seems to be a natural for the use of a small slave flash; since the HD1 can be operated with one hand, you could even hold the slave in the other hand. Or put it on a bookshelf or use the clever new Gorillapod (www.joby.com).

The question then becomes how many times does the HD1 actually flash, once or twice (not counting a red-eye flash). (Most digitals nowadays have a preliminary flash to set exposure, requiring a special slave with built-in circuitry to ignore the first flash). I'll be happy to test this out when I finally get mine!

I think if you where to upload the clip back to the camera, the camera will give you the camera settings when the video was shot. Also I think you can do it on QuickTime, but you need the pro version.

I just took a short video to try this. The video only gives you the quality, size, time, and exposure adjustment on the camera. A photo gives you more details, such as fstop and shutter.

I put the baby and child MP4 videos on the camera. The camera did not recognize either of the videos at all.

I even changed the name of the clips to match the camera names and it still ignores that the clips are even there, so I don't think these clips are from this camera.

Suspicious for sure.

Just to play devil's advocate, though, I read somewhere in the manual that the HD1 may even reject it's own footage being fed back to it once it's been manipulated on a computer, i.e. even if the clip was shortened or something?

But yes, they may have just thought any 16:9 720p was fair game to sell the item with... as was the case with the Sony at the tradeshow I mentionned above (although that wasn't 720p obviously!)

As we see more and more clips I am struck by the truth of what David Pogue said in the NY Times. It's good when it's well lit and stable, and not very good at all otherwise.

I'd say you can probably get away with shooting handheld once it is very controlled or well judged, i.e. mature handheld shooting.

The fact that the cam isn't very forgiving, together with those manual controls, makes it less the 'toy' people have claimed.

I even changed the name of the clips to match the camera names and it still ignores that the clips are even there, so I don't think these clips are from this camera.

They must be: they exhibit the same unusual artifacts!

If you open the clip in Quicktime and click on "Window/Show video information" or something like that (i have it in spanish :)) ther you would find information about bitrate, audio sampling and more. In the child´s video says "SANYO DIGITAL CAMERA HD1". (like all my HD1 videos) so i asume that the samples posted are real HD1 movies.

Experiment 1: Try loading .mp4 files posted by Joseph into Ulead MediaStudio 7. Error on attempt to load.

Experiment 2: Try converting them with YAMB etc as discussed here. Continuing errors on attempt to load into Ulead MediaStudio 7.

Experiment 3. Try converting them with Apple Quicktime 7 PRO = SUCCESS. Resulting .mov files load and edit OK (with some sluggish response) in ULead.
For test conversion I specified "mpeg4" as the codec. The file (overcast trees and cars no 6) actually reduced in size from 11 Meg to 8 Meg. Seems to be close in quality. There are plenty of options to produce less-compressed larger working files.

John,

you are recompressing the file if you use QT Pro and resave to mp4 again. Resave to a QT MOV file uncompressed or an AVI file uncompressed or else you will not see the originasl quality.

Gary

They must be: they exhibit the same unusual artifacts!

Maybe that is what the CIA wants you to think??

j/k

I guess they are the real deal but altered outside the camera in some way. I did not think of that angle. Thanks Graham.

The site with thumbnails you can click for the files is at:
http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/rev/20060210/115347/index3.shtml

You can get a crude translation by using the google toolbar and clicking "translate this page".

I found this site by setting the google preferences to search for Sanyo HD1 on sites in Japanese, then clicking "translate this page" next to the citation.


thanx very much for that info !

also thanx Steven for the new application, will try it soon :)

all those clips are very sweet but i would like to see more "raw" material, clips where the holder of the camera actually moves quickly or with spontaneous moves

cause most of the clips we can see on this japanese site and elsewhere, if they helps us to get an idea of the capabilities of the HD1, do not tell us much about what this camera will render on our next vacations in real situations : situations where you will not have a stable basis each time to shoot perfect conditions....

I agree with you Marc - and that will be the natural consequence of the cam being released this month.

Fortunately, we are a few steps ahead thanks to Mr Aurili.

I put the baby and child MP4 videos on the camera. The camera did not recognize either of the videos at all.

well, if you try the Mp4UI software i cited above, and open the clip with it, i'm pretty sure you will only see 2 tracks, 1 video and 1 audio (i don't have the clip here). But if you open a clip direct from the camera you'll see actually 4 tracks, 1 video/1 audio, plus 2 more tracks called OD and BIFS. They are system tracks with some informations inside (i need to investigate for more details ;)) and you probably lose it if you process the mp4 file outside the camera. That's why the clip doesn't work when you try to put it back in the camera (and that also why MP4Cam2AVI doesn't work, it doesn't know how to deal with those extra 2 tracks)


heh, after playing a bit with mp4UI and Yamb, i noticed that mp4UI add the BIFS/OD track itself (while yamb doesn't)... So try remuxing the child video with it, perhaps the camera will accept it ?

In summary - good things about cutting Sanyo HD1 footage in Vegas 6:

1. Accepts MPEG4 files directly.

2. Allows you to immediately make a 'HDV Intermediate' of your material so that you are not actually cutting with MPEG4 and going really slow. When it comes to render you can have Vegas automatically source the original MPEG4 footage!

3. Improved frame rate conversion capabilities in latest Vegas update I believe. I got a great 25p output, from the Sanyo HD1's 30p...

(I know Sanyo HD1 is not HDV, but it's a perfect template to work in, within Vegas)

How do you tell Vegas to use an Intermediate? Does it make SD clips for you to edit with?

Joseph, this is from the 'Working with HDV' section in Vegas Help - I tested it not with HDV but with your MP4 clips and it worked fine:

"If you've captured HDV clips, converting to an intermediate, lower-resolution format will streamline the editing process and allow you to preview your project.

Start a new project.

Add your captured HDV clips (MPEG-2 transport streams) to the timeline.

Render your clips to an appropriate intermediate format."

(Just render all the footage you want to play around with as 'HDV Intermediate' I think it's called..)

"If you're planning to render to a format that supports high-definition video, replace your HDV intermediate file with the original transport stream after you're finished editing and before you render.

If your intermediate files were rendered using the CineForm HD codec, you won't need to replace the intermediate files with the transport streams.

Right-click the HDV intermediate file in the Project Media window.

Choose Replace from the shortcut menu.

Browse to the MPEG-2 transport stream that corresponds to the intermediate file, and then click Open."

Good, huh?

Considering the way Vegas accepts MP4 straight up, converts it to an easier to use format if wished, conforms the original MP4 for the final render and can do high quality frame rate conversions from 30p to 25p, for me it really is very suitabe for the Sanyo HD1 after all.

Thanks Graham, I have got to try that out. Previewing with the raw MP4 is very jumpy.