For those of you who have seen both, what is your objective assessment?

And further, when encode to SD progressive DVD on a Mac, what are we looking at?

thanks

As far as motion rendition? Too close to care one way or another. 24F is virtual 24p, but I think the H1 has far more resolution when all's said and done. Of course, that isn't everything...but it's a nice start!

SD progressive 16x9 DVD's from 24F material are spectacular, as you would expect. HD-DVD progressive DVD's from 24F are spectacular too. I've made a few in DVDStudioPro 4 and been blown away. Too bad the players aren't here yet, but it works great with my G5.

Could you give me the skinny on what DVDStudioPro 4 does? Does it generate files (and structure) that will be compatible with the new drives from Toshiba? I don't know much more about HD-DVD than the raw capacity of the disks.

I've just made simple HD-DVD's onto 4.7GB DVD-R media. H.264 encoding with basic menu structure, much the same as SD DVD. The new version of the program is supposed to be compliant with the final shipping spec of HD DVD...but we won't know if it's absolutely standards compliant until they ship the durn things.

Thanks Barlow! Are you familiar with the IO-DATA LinkPlayer2?

Yes, somewhat familiar. I know it plays WMV and MPEG2...is it a good temporary solution?

I've played with the Panasonic DVX100A and B, the XL2, JVC HD100U, and XLH1. All of them do great 24p, especially the HD100U and DVX. In all honesty, I wouldn't like to use the XL2 or XLH1 because the 24p doesn't show up correctly while recording, or at least on default settings it doesn't. The strobiness was too apparent when I was looking through the viewfinder so I don't know if that was showing up on tape or not. The guy at the store said that footage shows up better when recorded to tape and that the viewfinder was just giving a rough low-res estimate. Well, that's all good and everything but the HD100U and DVX show me a WYSIWYG display in both viewfinder and LCD. Less stress and worry is always good with me. But this shouldn't discredit the camera at all, this is just my personal observation and opinion.

As far as the actual footage looks, it looks really good. I don't know what Canon is doing in 24F but they did something right. The motion is just as good as 24p stuff from the DVX and HD100U. I haven't seen too much XL2 stuff though but I'd imagine it's the same deal.

SD progressive 16x9 DVD's from 24F material are spectacular, as you would expect. HD-DVD progressive DVD's from 24F are spectacular too. I've made a few in DVDStudioPro 4 and been blown away. Too bad the players aren't here yet, but it works great with my G5.

I take it you captured HDV 24P in FCP to AIC? The reason I ask is that there is no preset to that effect.

There is only HDV 720P 30.

Then did you output a raw file, and conform it in Cinema Tools?

Or could you very briefly detail from acquisition in FCP to asset creation in DVD SP4?

Thank you

I take it you captured HDV 24P in FCP to AIC? The reason I ask is that there is no preset to that effect.

There is only HDV 720P 30.

Then did you output a raw file, and conform it in Cinema Tools?

Or could you very briefly detail from acquisition in FCP to asset creation in DVD SP4?

Thank you

I went the DVCPRO HD route.

--Capture SDI out from H1 HDV tape playback into Kona/FCP DVCPRO HD 1080i preset
--Conformed footage to 24p in Cinema Tools
--Edited in 24p
--Output final QT in DVCPRO HD 23.98 1080p
--Converted to 720p w/HD DVD Compressor preset (h.264 for HD DVD) at 10.3 mbps 720/59.94--You can go with higher bit rates or to 1080i w/MPEG 2 fwiw
--Burned to HD DVD spec with an extremely basic menu. Just a picture and play button.

Worked fine. I'm going to try 1080i at some point (no 1080p encoding in HD-DVD spec that I'm aware of), but my HD projector is 720p so that's what I encoded for and played back through. I've already seen the 1080p quality and it's great, so if and when I need to go with 1080 resolution it won't be an issue with H1 material.

Sorry to be so obtuse: You said:

I went the DVCPRO HD route.

--Capture SDI out from H1 HDV tape playback into Kona/FCP DVCPRO HD 1080i preset

This means you shoot 24F, go SDI to a Kona LH to DVCPRO HD 1080i preset in FCP.

Then do you take the raw clips and conformed footage to 24p in Cinema Tools.

Aren't the raw files interlaced?

Then reimport to what sequence setting? 24P 720 DVCPRoHD?

And how do you capture your audio?

Sorry to be so obtuse: You said:

I went the DVCPRO HD route.

--Capture SDI out from H1 HDV tape playback into Kona/FCP DVCPRO HD 1080i preset

This means you shoot 24F, go SDI to a Kona LH to DVCPRO HD 1080i preset in FCP.

Then do you take the raw clips and conformed footage to 24p in Cinema Tools.

Aren't the raw files interlaced?

Yes, the original DV100 1080i (I prefer calling it that) captured from the SDI output of the camera is interlaced, but when you perform inverse telecine in Cinema Tools, it gives you a true 23.98 extraction of the 24F progressive footage without recompression. You can tell just by stepping though the conformed footage frame by frame...no pulldown interlace frames. I've put up a few clips in the past that were extracted this way. Additionally, it's saved as a separtate QT file.

Then reimport to what sequence setting? 24P 720 DVCPRoHD?

And how do you capture your audio?

No reimporting of anything...just compressing 1080p to 720p...it's an easy conversion.

Audio was captured analog out of the camera into XLR connectors on the Kona LH card.

Barlow.
playing with the H1 -
Capture footage to FCP 1080i and when I try to inverse telecine in Cinema Tools, I get this:
"Error : This file has temporal compression"

I know your are not tech support, but, what you are doing is so Nice !

Thanks,
J

Hey John,

Did you finally get an H1 or still evaluating?

Umm...that error message...never ran into that one. If you captured DVCPRO HD 1080i properly, it should take a stab at the footage and then export the clip, usually by default to the desktop. Lots of times it misses the cadence (clip still has interlace artifacts) and you have to try a different combination of parameters. There's a bit of trial and error to it, for sure.

Just export a very short clip of your stuff. 5 to 10 sec at most in a "make movie self-contained" export. Bring the clip into Cinema Tools and render with the different "F1, F2..AA, BB, CC, DD" etc. I've usually had luck with CC or DD cadence detection.

Ha Ha !
Yes - after much deliberating, as you know because you were so instrumental in my decision making process, I jumped and bought the Beast !

I LOVE IT - got it late yesterday, so I have barely had time to play with it and decide if it was truly the camera for me. I don't think there is a question anymore. I am still slightly in shock (and debt). The footage is insane and there is a lot to learn.

I captured directly to Powerbook, firewire, 1080i 60 & just took the Captured quicktime. I just glanced att your earlier post and tried it fast.
Should I convert to DVCpro? (Isn't that just applying another codec and loosing info?)
Seems like converting from 1080 > 24p this way gonna be better footage than finegling 24f into final cut through the varios methods that have been posted.

Anyway, Barlow I have to thank you! You are really one of the main forces that let me see the truth of this camera in these last few months and I appreciate it greatly.
J

Back to the topic on hand here, how does the vertical chroma compare between the two cameras in 24f/24p mode?

We now know the HVX200 starts with only 540 vertical pixels that are pixel shifted to get HD resolutions. In theory the H1 also starts off it's 24f mode by only using one field of data worth 540 vertical pixels. I am curious if perhaps the Canon is doing the same thing as the HVX200 it it's 24f mode to go from 540 to 1080 pixels. If that is the case even with SDI there really isn't a true 4:2:2 going on since pixel shift usually helps luma and not chroma.

Ha Ha !
Yes - after much deliberating, as you know because you were so instrumental in my decision making process, I jumped and bought the Beast !
I LOVE IT - got it late yesterday, so I have barely had time to play with it and decide if it was truly the camera for me. I don't think there is a question anymore. I am still slightly in shock (and debt). The footage is insane and there is a lot to learn.

Muuaaaahhhh haah haah haahh!! *Dr. Evil laugh* Awesome! Glad it was a careful evaluation. Lots to consider when *gulp* paying the H1 premium...but I think you'll be very happy! It is a Beast, no doubt. Lots to learn (I am by no means a master) but it's wonderfully easy to use at the same time. And of course...it goes to eleven. Have you seen the eleven setting on that knob doohickey down below?

I captured directly to Powerbook, firewire, 1080i 60 & just took the Captured quicktime. I just glanced att your earlier post and tried it fast.
Should I convert to DVCpro? (Isn't that just applying another codec and loosing info?)
Seems like converting from 1080 > 24p this way gonna be better footage than finegling 24f into final cut through the varios methods that have been posted.

Yes, it's applying another codec, but if the results are clean (mine have been) then you're good to go in a more easily editable format. Like I've said...when Apple finally supports 24F it will probably negate this whole workaround, much to my relief as well as many others.

Are you capturing 24F directly in FCP? I only get skipping footage in the capture window and it's unuseable. If you're using HDVxDV it will capture the m2t's, and then you can convert to DVCPRO HD with MPEG Streamclip.(free program)

The reason I've gone the SDI route is because it seems like there's a subtle improvement in the conversion quality...but probably not enough for anyone but a geek like me to perceive. I also like the simplicity of capture this way. It's like super-firewire.

Anyway, Barlow I have to thank you! You are really one of the main forces that let me see the truth of this camera in these last few months and I appreciate it greatly.
J

The truth shall set you free, brother! Oh wait, do you really want the red pill?

Hey, you gotta shoot some NYC stuff, especially at night. Give us some cool, moody, city atmosphere to chew on. Pretty please...my iDisk is yours.

Anyway, glad you've come aboard John. How will you mainly be using the camera? Indie filmmaking, docs etc.? Corporate video/commercials/TV work etc? Weddings? Don't laugh but this is one of the main markets the H1 (despite price) is really targeting.

Good luck and feel free to email me if I can be of any further assistance.

Barlow

XL-H1 owners: The Few, The Proud...The Few

Back to the topic on hand here, how does the vertical chroma compare between the two cameras in 24f/24p mode?

We now know the HVX200 starts with only 540 vertical pixels that are pixel shifted to get HD resolutions. In theory the H1 also starts off it's 24f mode by only using one field of data worth 540 vertical pixels. I am curious if perhaps the Canon is doing the same thing as the HVX200 it it's 24f mode to go from 540 to 1080 pixels. If that is the case even with SDI there really isn't a true 4:2:2 going on since pixel shift usually helps luma and not chroma.

Tough one to call, but the H1 does more than one field in 24F. I believe it's an extremely good deinterlace/interpolation from 48hz.

When I do some SDI/greenscreen in the future I'll post some material to evaluate. I'll also post the HDV shot at the same time to compare it to. I do know that normal 1080i SDI output into DV100 is indeed 4.2.2.

We'll see if this 4.2.2 vs. 4.2.0 is just splitting hairs...and hairs can be the difference in a good chroma key.

Jack---the strobing you see in the XL2 viewfinder is not on tape. That's a viewfinder problem. A friend of mine recently got an XL2, and when I was shooting some tests, that excessive strobing in the viewfinder was driving me nuts, but the tape looks fine.

For the record there is no difference at all in the 24p from the DVX and the 24p from the XL2. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples, 24P to 2:3 and 24PA to 2:3:3:2



ash =o)