I'll be shooting a short with the HD100 and the bulk of the story takes place on the side of a road at night.

the main source of the lighting will probably be the moon, and we'll have some extra lighting within the car as well as the headlights turned on.

What settings do you recommend for shooting in such extreme low light? Tim, is your 'low light' setting a good option to try out?

I'm pretty new to lighting in the dark with no natural or unnatural source of light other than the moon and headlights. so even if any of you had ideas for light diagrams that would be cool.

i really want shadows, but i'm afraid of overlighting and making it look fake and 'lit'.

i'm such an amateur, please don't get angry, haha.
:: efrain

the main source of the lighting will probably be the moon...
Forget it. Moon is not enough. Typically you would use a large HMI at a distance immitating 'moon light'. Headlights are good but they are only a supplement. If there are any trees in the background THEY need to be illuminated to give some perspective and a sense of space. Ideally you'd have at least 3-4 HMIs, one as a 'key' (5-10kW - moon) and the rest (2-5kW) to light the background. You could also use smaller fixtures to fill in for closeups. They should be either 5600k as the 'moon light' or 3200k as a 'spill' from the car headlights.

oh right, what i should have said was that the main light source will "imitate" the moon. meaning, I will have a light or two giving off 'moonlight'.

thanks for your help though. there will be trees and shrubbery in the background, and it will definitely be good to light those up a bit for the depth.

now, the only thing is that we don't have money to rent HMI's, and neither will the college lend those to us.


This is what we have so far at our disposal:
Tungsten...
2x 1K lights
1x 2K light (possibly one more if needed)
2x 650W

2x 500w work lights from Home Depot (halogen? don't remember)

and possibly a simple 3 point arri kit. don't know the details.

we have access to some CTB gels and diffusion, a reflector and bouncer. to colour-correct flourescent bulbs, i need some red gel?

a couple small battery-operated flourescent tubes.
a cheesy 40watt tungsten 'chinese' lantern ball light from wal-mart

we also have some parchment paper and a couple of foamcore boards


We're going to do couple long shots of the car with one person inside and the other outside standing next to the car.
Also, one extreme long shot of the car pulling into frame and getting some of the background to establish the setting.
and we'll also do some closeups in the car and at the rear end of the car.

am i in the wrong thread here?
:: efrain ::

we'll probably get kicked outta here...

To quickly answer, the 2k with CTB will work as long as it's not too far. No diffusion, moon light is hard. The 2x 1k will do the same with CTB for the background - again hard. The rest is good for the actors either as a CU support for the moon (CTB, hard) or with a diffusion and no colour correction gel as a 'spill' from the headlights. For the car interior a small fluorescent tube in the dashboard gives boost to the natural glow of the instrument panel and its greenish light is about right. You could control it by gels as well.

Done, I am outta here....before Chris comes with the hatchet.

2k Blonde (open face) or fresnel? I would use an open face instrument with a dichroic CTB filter if available (less light loss). If not, gel CTB is fine. Now I too will duck out of here...ask more questions in the "Photon Management" section...

Henry

The other thing you can do if you want to get that "moon light" effect but don't have high powered HMI lights is to use a couple of 650W or 1000K if you can get them and point them at a very reflective surface concentrating the beam of light. Something like a mirror that won't melt. This might take some experimenting but the benefit would be having the light source further away from the subject giving you more coverage but keeping the light level higher and the source of light more consistent.

This was doen in a HUGE way for the Appollo 13 walking on the moon shots.

It's not only the low light that will be your problem, the sse will likely become a problem as well.

Forget about it, get another camera or rework your script.

It's not only the low light that will be your problem, the sse will likely become a problem as well.

Forget about it, get another camera or rework your script.
Nonsense! Lighting a night scene doesn't mean low light. It could be lit as a high contrast scene where highlights are almost overexposed while blacks are really deep. No need to get another camera or reworking the script. Just hire a good DP or do some tests first and all will be fine.

Another Flame posted by Albert. It doesn't matter how many of us inform good ol' Albert that the SSE does not appear on later model cameras. Perhaps Albert would like to post a photo of all his woes?

Now I'm going to ask the moderators of this forum - when will someone address this?

Another Flame posted by Albert.
Did I fall for it?

So shooting at night with a lighting setup imitating moonlight and headlights only, Mr. Dashwood's Cine Wide Lattitude setting would probably give me the best dynamic range in the scene and then I could colour correct in editing, right?

It's going to be a shadowy scene, so is the Cine Wide Lattitude a good setting to use if there aren't going to be any hot spots or highlights that will come close to 100%?

I like having a wide lattitude in the image, but a good colour representation is also important to the director(and me) because a character will be distinctly wearing a red coat.

I might have to edit the short as well, so I say it'd be best to colour correct in post.

What do you think?

-------------------------------

Also, for the 7.5 setup you guys have been talking about: the movie won't be going to film and neither is it for broadcast; should I have it at 0 on the shoot during recording?

:: efrain ::

Also, for the 7.5 setup you guys have been talking about: the movie won't be going to film and neither is it for broadcast; should I have it at 0 on the shoot during recording?

If 7.5 setup is only added to the analog NTSC out (unlike the DVX100 which seems to add it to the digital signal) so it is of no concern.


So shooting at night with a lighting setup imitating moonlight and headlights only, Mr. Dashwood's Cine Wide Lattitude setting would probably give me the best dynamic range in the scene and then I could colour correct in editing, right?

It's going to be a shadowy scene, so is the Cine Wide Lattitude a good setting to use if there aren't going to be any hot spots or highlights that will come close to 100%?

It should work well, but you may also want to try increasing the gamma response if you are only using headlights to light your scene. Avoid gain if you can and you should be able to control the highlights very well.
If the red coat is a concern, then you may want to increase color gain as well. If you don't have time to test a few things again of time, then the most important thing is to have a HD monitor on set.

I've done alot of night shooting with my Ciné Wide setting and it has worked out well.

To be more specific: the scene will be lit "as if" the moon and the headlights are the only source.

I was planning on not using gain, so that should be fine. now with the gamma response...can i leave it as is in your Cine Wide Lattitude settings with this at our disposal:
a couple 2Ks, a couple 1Ks, a couple 650w, some 1K and 500w worklights, and possibly a couple mini-moles and a few small battery operated flourescent lights, reflectors, etc.

:: efrain

To be more specific: the scene will be lit "as if" the moon and the headlights are the only source.

I was planning on not using gain, so that should be fine. now with the gamma response...can i leave it as is in your Cine Wide Lattitude settings with this at our disposal:
a couple 2Ks, a couple 1Ks, a couple 650w, some 1K and 500w worklights, and possibly a couple mini-moles and a few small battery operated flourescent lights, reflectors, etc.

If you have controlled lighting, then the CineWide setting should suit you well. Treat it as a 250ASA film stock and light the way you would for film.

Will the scene be contained in one small area, or will there be lots of movement? I can give you some "moon emulation" pointers if you like.

there will be movement and it will all be centered around a parked car on the side of a dark road.

guy gets a flat tire, gets out of the car, checks trunk, gets back in the car, is startled by a tapping on the window, a boy shows up, he gets out of the car again. and there will be a couple dolly and tracking shots. even one small crane shot with a small jib arm.

the camera won't be continually moving, of course; there are shots where the camera is on the tripod.

:: efrain ::

OK. Good, so the whole scene is basically contained around the car.

Here's my suggestion.
Use 3200K WB preset with the Ciné Wide scene file. Turn the detail down to around -6 (your choice.) Go buy some 2x3 foam core boards at Office Depot.
I would rent a 6x6 frame with a silk. Then rig it high above the car on two sky-high stands pointing down at a 45° angle. Bring lots of sand bags if its slightly windy. Position both 2K Blondes underneath the silk and pointing at the silk. Put 1/4 CTB on the blondes. Position the whole rig as a back light for the majority of your setups, and check the reflections in the car windows. You don't want to see a big white square in the windows.

Now place the rest of your redheads (I assume your 1K and 650W are redheads) as fill lights. Point them straight up in the air, and then place the foam core boards in the barndoors and you have instant softboxes. Flood the lights and add 1/4 or 1/8th blue if you want.

Now take two foam core boards and prop them up on apple boxes about 10 feet from the headlights and bounce some of the headlights back at the car.

That should give you a great moonlit natural look.

oh man, Tim, you are beyond awesome. Thanks for your input! I might not have time between now and friday to rent a frame and silk though.

We were thinking of just using the 2Ks and diffuse/ctb them.

oh great, i think i went off topic...
:: efrain

I might not have time between now and friday to rent a frame and silk though.
We were thinking of just using the 2Ks and diffuse/ctb them.

Just keep in mind that the moon itself is a diffused reflected source, so direct light passing through diffusion doesn't always sell as the moon, especially if you can't get it high enough.

There is one trick I have up my sleeve that I used once:

A couple years ago I went to a local party store and rented a helium tank and bought loads of white balloons and string. I then had them blown up, tied together (30+ of them) and we tethered them to sand bags and let them float as one big reflector/diffuser about 30 feet high and then pointed a bunch of lights at them. It was an awesome soft "moon light" until a stong wind came up and the balloons started moving back and forth.
If you are in calm conditions, it might work for you.

Alternatively, you could bring a white sheet and rig it high in place of a silk.

That's a pretty neat idea. I was thinking of using a sheet.

Now, i was checking the forecast with our weather guys (i work at a tv station) and they said there'll be a 30% chance of rain the night of our shoot.

Do you or anyone here ever shoot while it's drizzling, sprinkling, or lightly raining?

I was in a small 35mm production where it was raining a bit and they were still using lights outside.

can lights get wet at all? what about some sort of covering?
:: efrain

Rain with tungsten lights is usually not a big deal. HMI ballasts should be protected though.
There are rain covers available for most lights, but most gaffers/grips I know just use tar paper in the rain. You can buy a roll at Home depot pretty cheap (it will be in the aisle with the roofing shingles.) It won't burn, but it soaks up the water.

I shot a short film with a DVX100 over 4 days, outside in the rain in Vancouver during December. The grips put a quarter apple on the ground where cables were connected, then layed the cable connections on the apple box, then put tar paper on top. They also put tar paper on the light heads. I was told this was normal for Vancouver shooting, where it rains a hell of alot.

If you are really paranoid of electrocution, just rent a GFI Box (Ground Fault Interrupter.) What kind of generator are you using? It will probably have its own protection.

As for the camera, I have used it in the rain with great success. I kept it covered with a plastic bag. Kata makes some rain covers for cameras, but I'm not sure if they have one for the HD100 yet.
The key is to keep the camera climatized to the shooting environment. Don't take the camera into a heated car with you during breaks. This will create condensation when there is moisture in the air. It will affect the lens, and it may affect the tape transport.

Alright, that's great news. I now have a second opinion to confirm my advice to the director. I told him that I'd ben on a shoot where they used lights outside at night, and it was cold and raining.

Man, thanks Mr. Dashwood! I'll be back to bug you all some more pretty soon.
:: efrain

Now place the rest of your redheads...as fill lights. Point them straight up in the air, and then place the foam core boards in the barndoors and you have instant softboxes. Flood the lights and add 1/4 or 1/8th blue if you want.

Okay, so you're saying it'd be cool to put pieces of foam core on the barndoors? by simply cutting the foam core in small pieces and attaching?

:: efrain

Okay, so you're saying it'd be cool to put pieces of foam core on the barndoors? by simply cutting the foam core in small pieces and attaching?

:: efrain
No, don't cut them, just put the whole 2'x3' foam core in. The bigger the better. I don't have a photo, but it is a technique I have used for years.
Here's a pack of 10 at Office Depot for $56. http://www.officedepot.com/ddSKU.do?level=SK&id=394471

I'll try to explain it better. Tilt the head of the light up so it is pointing straight up. Open the barndoors and rotate so that the square barndoors are at the top and bottom. Then slip the foam core in the top so that it leans on the two angled barndoors, and then close the top square barndoor down to "clamp" the foam core in place.
Now you have a soft light.

I think I should move these last few posts into the "Photon Management" forum.

It's not only the low light that will be your problem, the sse will likely become a problem as well.

Forget about it, get another camera or rework your script.

Another Flame posted by Albert. It doesn't matter how many of us inform good ol' Albert that the SSE does not appear on later model cameras. Perhaps Albert would like to post a photo of all his woes?

Now I'm going to ask the moderators of this forum - when will someone address this?

Yeah Albert. I think your comment is a little unfair since you don't own the camera yourself. I have two early model cameras (August/September 2005) and SSE does not affect my nighttime shooting - and I've done alot of it.

Okay, so i talked to my gaffer today about possibly riggin a WHITE BED SHEET on some C-Stands or if we're desperate, attaching it to some trees that are near the car.

He was baffled (he's a junior at the local university) and told me that it wouldn't work because of the wind would make the reflection inconsistent.

and i told him that yes, that might happen, but we can still try it. What do you think, Mr. Dashwood?

:: efrain

Don't forget that you can and should take advantage of the fact that cars also have red and yellow lights. For instance, you could light the trees behind and to the sides of the car with red and yellow light. This would give sufficient motivation for lighting those areas of the location. Perhaps the sides could be yellow and the rear areas red. Check your car because many have yellow lights at the corners.

For the moon lights, try daylight-balanced fluorescents. You can get up to 65W compact fluorescents that will fit in a chinese lantern. Try naturallighting.com, but don't get bulbs bigger than 65W or they won't fit. Measure your fixtures and compare them to the sizes listed in the bulb specs. on the site. Don't forget that compact (65W aren't so compact) fluorescents have a large base, so they work best with fixtures that have clearance around the socket. The good news is that a 65W fluorescent is about as powerful as a 300W tungsten before it is gelled down. I compared a 650W gelled and a 65w daylight fluorescent and they looked similar. The only BIG differences are that you can put 20 big fluorescents on one circuit and handle them with bare hands. You will probably end your shoot with an explanation to the fire department how you caught a chinese lantern on fire if you put 300W of tungsten in it.

Get a pack of regular compact fluorescents, a bunch of clamp-lamps, and some gels and you have your tree light covered for about $50 and won't trip circuit breakers. Put 3200K, yellow, and red lights down low. It is common to see architectural lights shining up on trees and won't disturb the audience. I've run an outdoor beach location with fluorescents on batteries (deep-cycle 12V). Don't forget that if you don't light it, it doesn't exist in your shot.

I forgot to add that you can make a really tall stand for your "moon" light using a super-long (I have a 24' model) paint pole and two 8' 2x2 boards to make a tripod. Cross the two boards at the top to make a crotch for the paint pole to fit in. This makes a sturdy tripod and the paint pole projects out over the base so it won't show up in the shot. You must weight the paint pole leg or it will tip over when the light is sent up. It is a good idea to weight and stabilize all of the legs. I bungeed the junction of the legs at the top down to the big battery.

if you can add another night to the schedule you can shoot for about 30min after sunset and for about 45min before sunrise when there's enough ambient light bouncing off the atmosphere that you can vaguely make out details in the back ground but the sky is dark enough for a night looking super deep blue. with that little tiny bit of background light you should be able to supplement your subject's faces with minimal lighting and pull off a nice looking, if gainy, night.

-Jon

I think I can help with the issue of the bed sheet.

I was DPing a shoot where renting silks was not in the budget. We shot the first two days with overcast sky's (perfect for lighting because all the work is done for you.) However, on the last day of the shoot we had sun out all day. Imagine the continuity issues with that.

Solution? I got one of the P.A.'s to go to the motel we were staying at and 'scrounge' up some bedsheets. The gaff and I then started building a frame out of grip arms. To me, grip arms are like Lego. This allowed us to mount the frame on a couple of sandbagged stands so we could raise it up to diffuse the sunlight on the scene. The P.A. came back with, what I believe was, a queen size bed sheet.

While a grip was holding the bed sheet to one side of the frame, the gaff and I stretched out the sheet and secured it to the frame using zip-ties. We did this by overlapping the sheet around the frame and then cutting holes on the inside of the fabric. The zip-ties went through the overlapped sections, through the holes and around the frame.

It is very important that the fabric is stretched tight onto the frame. Otherwise, the consistancy of the light will be an issue. However, don't pull it too tight since you may rip the fabric.

The setup got us out of a tight situation. Took us about 15min to build. It diffused the scene perfectly to match. Hope this helps.

While bounced "moonlight" may be your best choice, I've always struggled with the amount of light you lose by the time you gel with CTB (or even 1/2) and then bounce. It means you either need to light with a lot of instruments, or use really high watt sources. If you can stage your moonlight as more of a backlight, you can use it direct with some diffusion. Faces can then be lit with soft tungsten sources motivated by the headlights. It sounds backwards, of course, but works well on screen.