Hello,
Now when we have so very many shutter speeds to pick from; 1/16000 up to 1/3 second, which one should we pick?

Maybe we have some people here who could share their experiences with me/us. Perhaps you have found what is great for different situations?

I have tried the 25F and I really like it. Our camera will probably be set to 25F most of the time. I used the XL H1 to analyze a problem a customer had in a fast running packaging machine for potatoes. (The machine suddenly dropped a bag without any visible cause.)
I put the camera on tripod and used 1/250 shutter speed and tried 50i and 25F. Then I stepped through the motion frame by frame. What a difference, 25F looks much better! Look for it frame by frame and you will find 50/60i is completely striped when something passes by quickly. (You see the background through the object like looking through a blinder.)

We actually found 4 faults instead of one as we anticipated! We could even see thick metal constructions vibrating which the designer thought should be very stiff.

For this purpose we liked a short shutter speed to freeze the motion in every single frame.

Now, for other more filmic objects, which shutter is good, for instance to film a person running? How much should the legs be unsharp in a single picture to make a nice motion in the film? I think we have to experiment a lot here but somebody of you may already know this. Of course it depends of a lot like focal length, distance etc.

Thankful for any good advice. Sorry if this thread is a bit out of this forum./Johan

I like 1/75th

I like 1/75th
Thank you Pete,
1/75 is only available in complete manual mode where we can find many close shutter speeds like ... 1/25, 50, 60, 75, 90, 100, 120 ...

In Tv mode a more limited selection like ... 1/12, 25, 50, 120, 250 ... is selectable.

Thanks / Johan

But why are you shooting in Tv mode?

Dear Vincent,
Think it is an old habit from my Canon still cameras. Set the shutter speed you like and then accept the aperture it gives you. But with those cameras I could see which aperture the light meter selected and then make changes if I preferred something else.
As far as I know from the XL H1 we are not shown which aperture we get in Tv mode nor do we se which shutter we get in Av mode (why not, Canon?). In green mode or A mode we see nothing of it at all.
Only in manual mode we see both aperture and shutter. But then you have to adjust them manually to not under- or overexposure.

Conclusion: If you like to see what you get, you cannot use the automatic but rather have to dial in both settings and then see if the light meter thinks it is dark or light. Then you must adjust until satisfied. /Johan

Then you should probably go with 1/50th.

Then you should probably go with 1/50th.
Hello Pete,
I think I get the idea! Half of the time is for the exposure and the other half is for "film transport". Like running a camera with real film ... Thanks. /Johan

Hi Johan, If I may advice you, and since your last post, I think you agree with me on that; go completely manual with your settings. Maybe it'll take some time for you to figure it all out but in the end you will be pleased with the result. A agree with Pet's suggestion; most of the time that I'm shooting, I'll stick to the 1/50th.

Hello from Norway, I will aquire my new XL H1 very soon and I am wondering if someone has a list of the best "set up" tips for this camera, I am making a 1 hour TV documentary about wild birds that come to a special place in Norway and the people collect their feathers, so most of the shooting is outside, and want the film look, also I have read that it is smart to set the gain to -1/3. I know every project is different but this camera you can fine tune it to such an extreme. I would like some guide lines to get the most out of this cameraand the cine controlpicture settings. I want the total film look. Can any one help me.
Also what is the best type tape to use in the XL H1? On my other documentary projects I have used Maxell tapes in my PD-150.

For film, cinematographers use 1/50 of a shutter speed, any lower than that would cause motion stuttering/blur.

For film, cinematographers use 1/50 of a shutter speed, any lower than that would cause motion stuttering/blur.
Hello Yasser,
Thank you for your answer. I will do some tests regarding this.
Is it bad to have some motion blur on fast moving things?
Let´s say a person is running and you see his legs. Will it be better to see ultra sharp legs spaced far away by using short exposure (can give a stroboscopic effect I assume) or is it better to see unsharp legs running?

Is the goal to normally have sharp single pictures to get a good film or could it give a better appearence if moving things are intentionally blurred?

Here must be a bunch of experience regarding this. Go ahead ... With the Canon we have a lot of settings to experiment with. Much more than on the good old super 8/16 mm.

One odd thing is your exposure time could be set to a much longer time than the time for one frame i.e. 1/50, 1/60, 1/25 and so on!

Hello from Norway, I will aquire my new XL H1 very soon and I am wondering if someone has a list of the best "set up" tips for this camera...
Also what is the best type tape to use in the XL H1? On my other documentary projects I have used Maxell tapes in my PD-150.
Dear neighbour David,
Please do a search and you will find many fellows who have already shared their experiences about both subjects!
Good luck with your camera. I recommend to take plenty of test tapes before doing any serious work. It is easy to forget something or change a setting by mistake. Last film i figured out I had forgotten to set the audio correctly during the first three takes. At least I have figured out I will leave the switches at HDV and 25F.
Also it takes some time to get used to the focus, zoom, over exposure of white etc. Especially the focus is critical and you will probably need the assist of peaking or magnifying or a better resoluting monitor ...

Johan: a 50th of a second will by no means freeze fast moving objects, but is adequate to e.g. render a normal arm movement unblurred at the hand-end. In my experience, shutter speeds above 1/90th result in strobing with fast moving subjects, e.g. the trajectory of a ball across the picture will result in a dotted line.

HTH,

Ron

Dear Vincent,
Think it is an old habit from my Canon still cameras. Set the shutter speed you like and then accept the aperture it gives you. But with those cameras I could see which aperture the light meter selected and then make changes if I preferred something else.
As far as I know from the XL H1 we are not shown which aperture we get in Tv mode nor do we se which shutter we get in Av mode (why not, Canon?). In green mode or A mode we see nothing of it at all.
Only in manual mode we see both aperture and shutter. But then you have to adjust them manually to not under- or overexposure.

Conclusion: If you like to see what you get, you cannot use the automatic but rather have to dial in both settings and then see if the light meter thinks it is dark or light. Then you must adjust until satisfied. /Johan

Hi Johan. If the H1 exposure controls are similar to those on the XL2, you can see the settings in Tv or Av modes by pressing the Exposure Lock button. You can also tweak the iris and shutter in Lock mode, so I find it very useful to use Tv as a starting point, press Exposure Lock, and then adjust from there.

Richard

Hi Johan. If the H1 exposure controls are similar to those on the XL2, you can see the settings in Tv or Av modes by pressing the Exposure Lock button. Richard
Dear Richard,
Thank you very much for this valuable information!! I never tried this button in these modes because I started to go completely manual to see both aperture and shutter for good control. That is however a bit time consuming when moving around in the nature with changing light situations from deep dark forests to bright sunlight until the settings are at least inside the meter range markings so you now how much to adjust.

I'm so glad you told me this.
This forum is a fantastic tool to develop our knowledge from a worldwide base of experience. (Did you hear this Chris, thank you too!) /Johan

Interesting discussion. From what I understand, I should leave the shutter speed at 1/50 whenever possible? I am used to still photography where the iris/shutter is an incredible powerful combination to control exposure. But as I understand, the use of shutter speed as an exposure control is somewhat limited with digital video? What I would like to know is what are the usable settings for shutter speed with 25F and 50i. Is it 1/25 for 25F and 1/50 for 50i or is it 1/50 for 25F and 1/50 for 50i? Thanks for the clarification.

Hi Floris, I think you could think still image a bit here. 1/25 is a looong time, especially hand-held or with long lens. It can blur the whole image leaving nothing sharp if you don't take the same precautions as for a still camera. However, a long exposure can give creative effects. I used long exposure time (think it was 1/12) to let the couple in a wedding party "flow" in a waltz. Another time I used 1/250 to get sharp pictures of a working automation machine for movement analysis. 25F worked much better than 50i for that purpose.
Then, what is not possible with the still camera or a real film camera, you can use longer exposure than the time for one frame! This makes the camera see quite well in the darkness.
I guess the film will look good and natural if it looks like the sight with a naked eye. We are expecting to see an unsharp image from the legs of a running person. So, let's make the legs a bit blurred on the individual pictures. Then 1/50 s will do it about right. But remember, it is not a fixed time. It is more like a relative movement in % over the screen width/height.
So, go out and experiment and tell us your experience. 1/50 s is probably a good starter for most situations if you are not looking for something special. This fact will make you switch ND filters much more than on a still camera. Then add the fact that most would like to not use apertures smaller than 1:8 for sharpness. And many like a short depth of focus forcing us with small chips to use nothing but the widest apertures. Then we have only the ND filters and GAIN to play with. And many like to set the gain at -3dB. Then you thank Canon they provided us with two built-in ND filters so you can cover at least three different light situations and still leave the knobs and switches at optimum settings ... Video is way more demanding than still photo! / Johan

50 shutter is "right" for filmlike blur, but I believe it is wise not to limit one self too much to conventions. Remember this is a creative art. I often use 25 shutter when shooting 25f material, simply because I like the little extra blur and because I find the 25f/50 a little more stroby than actual film. In my opinion you can get away with quite a lot of motion blur as long as someting (that doesn´t moove) remains sharp from time to time. Every sharp detail will work as a sort of perception reference on how sharp the frames really are. So as long as you leave enough of these reference frames in there your home free. In my opinion anyway.

In the end it´s a matter of taste. Also I use TV mode a lot on "shoot and run" stuff. It´s much like the automation of a still camera. Fix the shutter and let the automation do it´s work. Then "lock" for steady exposure and fine adjust iris manually after choosing preferred ND filters. All while keeping an eye on the zebras. It´s fast and reliable.

Thanks to all of you for sharing experience.

Using XK-H1 for wildlife, especially birds, and obtaining excellent stills taken from the tape. However need to keep to fast shutter speeds whenever possible, so that these still will be sharp. The Instruction Manual for XL-H1, pagw 127 has a chart headed SETTINGS RETAINED AT POWER OFF OR STANDBY MODE. This shows that, on return from POWER OFF or STANDBY, the previous settings should still be retained ,in Tv, Av, and manual. So if I am using shutter 1000 sec, (Tv or Manual) I should returned with that speed still set. (This is usual also in Canon's EOS still cameras) However I am finding this very erratic, and quite unreliable.

Sometime it retains the setting even if switched for days or weeks, other times the setting is lost, reverted to default 1/50, if only off or on standby for a few seconds. I have tried for some 6 months to find a pattern to this behavior, assuming I'm doing something wrong. Have tried switching to standby, and exposure lock, prior to switching off but no improvement.

Seems possible than if camera is swiched back on with lens pointed at adark background or before taking lens cap off, maybe it tries to adjust for low light, but one would not think it would in manual mode. Have tried new backup batteries. Wildlife work requires camera ready at minimal delay, and its therefore bad to have to keep shifting shutter back from 1/50 to 500 or 1000. Maybe its possible to have a default of say 1/500 instead of 1/50 somehow. I imagine there will be other action users (eg sports) who have this need to start at a fast speed without delay. Maybe someone else has observed such behavior, and has worked out a procedure to make it retain settings as shown in the Instruction manual.

Hi Michael,
I agree with you. It should retain the last shutter according to the Swedish Canon instruction book too.
Two weeks ago a company had a small video exhibition here with representatives from the major brands like Sony, JVC, Canon etc. I had brought a list with me about XL H1 issues to discuss and perhaps get some features explained to me. The Canon rep. had a display with all the Canon camcorders. Unfortunately, he didn't know much at all about the operation of the XL H1!
In our opinion JVC and Sony did a much better job with people in their booth knowing their tools.
But, he would appreciate to receive my paper with comments, especially if it could be written in English.
So, one week ago Canon Sweden received a six pages long PDF-document with about 22 different matters from me. Most are things which we are discussing here in this forum.
However, I have the feeling that the technicians at Canon are working hard in their crowded Japanese labs. Not many on the outside knows whats going on. Then suddenly, Voila! It's working! is heard from the chief technician. Production starts. And the product hits you and me. Not much communication is going back and forth between the development team and the end users. They didn't have time to sort out the last programming issues (like focus assist while recording) so they simply locked it (and a bunch of other things too), being under pressure from the marketing department tp push out the product.
I think this XL H1 is a "black duckling" (or what you call it in English), standing between the consumer division and the broadcast lens division. Who care about this baby? The pro's and you and me who need to "produce" to get food on the table needs efficiency. The workflow need to work. We don't want to spend a whole day just to recapture a few clips and get that to work as I was forced to do yesterday.
This Canon approach is clearly visible when you see that Canon has yet not delivered any other HD lens than the standard 20x despite the camera has been out nearly a year now. Perhaps 1/3 of its best ages without the ability to change glasses despite it was marketed and sold as a flexible system.
Also the deck issue. My camera was playing back and forth like an idiot yesterday when I tried to recapture with batch capture. I asked on this forum and found others who cannot recapture their material in a good manner either. Who should help us with this? Canon? Apple? FCP?
Canon should look at Sony. When they introduce a new format (again) they nearly immediately sells a suitable deck and have a workable workflow. They think and care more about the whole system.

The Canon XL H1 gives great results when you are using it right or as the Japanese developer thought. But is it made for video professionals? Sorry, I doubt. Canon lacks the service to their demanding users. Or maybe it is well hidden.

The Canon rep. told me they have a special "Canon Professional Service" to address the demands from professional still photographers who are not satisfied with a regular camera shop.

Hey, have you heard about this "CPS"? It is not easily to find. And our dealer didn't know it either! Here it is: http://www.cps.canon-europe.com

You have to qualify to become a member by owning at least 2 professional SLR:s with at least 3 L-lenses. Thyy are the entrance fee to get professional service with a still camera.

So what about us video folk? The Canon rep. said they needed something similar for the video pro's. Let's hope the market is big enough.
Make yourself heard! / Johan

PS. Don't forget today´s quizz: What makes a XL H1 retain or forget its shutter setting?

Further to my previous post on retention in memory of set speeds:
In fact I use the camera mainly at the 50 fps setting, I can't pick any difference in sharpness between the 50 and the 25 including fast action, eg birds in flight. If that is so, then there are then, with 50 fps, images at every 1/50th sec, 1/50th sec, rather than the long interval of 1/25. A flying bird will move its wing, indeed its body quite a distance in 1/25. If taking off stills from tape, theres twice as many images to choose from at the 50 fps.

Incidently for wildlife am using mostly the Canon 100-400 L seris zoom (EOS 35mm lens) via Canon adapter, and find results excellent. But at 400mm focal length, that s equaivalent to about 2800 mm in 35mm camers terms, so camers shake difficult to avoid even with heavy tripod and good fluid head. The shake doesn't matter with still frames if taken at 1/500 or faster, but hard to avoid on video. Hopefully one usually gradually gets closer to the subject, and the lens is at 100 to 200 length and much easier to control. But I do hope someone has an answer on that problem of retention of shutter speed page as supposed to happen (page 127 iof manual).

I would imagine the various steadiycam type supports could not cope with such long lenses.

Finally, on subject of difficulty of focussing manually on canon screen. I have discovered that this can be caused by the camers setting itself to a very small aperture outdoors in bright light , such as f/16 f/22 ( as shutter defaults to 1/50).

The depth pf field is then so great that turning of focussing ring has little effect, and the image does not snap into sharp focus at the correct setting. Indeed it then seems almost impossible to get it sharp. By opening the aperture to f4 to 5.6 (in case of my 100-300 zoom) the very shallow depth of field will male the sharpest setting far more obvious. Another reason for needing to have sutter speed stay at about 1/500 or 1/1000 sec.

The lens aperture then will set itself to an aperture wide enough to make possible accurate manual focussing. What is needed is an old-time aperture preview button as on 35mm cameras, a button that when pressed held open the lens wide for focussing. Was much used on still camers prior to auto diaphragm lenses, back in 1960's/70's.