I'm not trying resurrect the post that Chris closed, just asking for some practical advice.

We live no where near a place where we can test the Panasonic, Sony, JVC and Canon side by side. Even though this area has nearly 750,000 people no dice for professional cams. I suspect there are a great deal more other areas that are similar.

Seattle or Portland, also within a half day drive, do not have this capability.

What do we do?

We rely on places like this where people much more technically knowledgeable, can exchange information.

In any case, we don't have the luxury to look at this stuff side by side.

Wish we do, and that's why when Chris hosts footage, as do others, it assists. Also important to hear comments.

I can relate to what you're going through; here in PHX we have almost zero pro-level support for the indie filmmaker.

Unfortunately what I'm going to suggest isn't what you want to hear, but it might save you a ton of heartache later - and misspent funds.

Call the closest pro-video shop to you that has all the cameras in stock and arrange for a special day where you can drive/fly in and test the various cameras yourself.

The problem with asking others for advice about "which is better" is that you'll get tons of responses that are all based on personal preference and, their own testing abilities. Nobody, except yourself, will know exactly what's important to you and your requirements and without seeing how these cameras perform in-person you're always going to be at the mercy of others feedback.

That's not to say that you won't get good advice or that it's impossible to make a good choice based solely on third-party info, but if you really want to maximize your hard-earned spending money then you need to get some hands-on time with these bodies yourself.

Taking a camera-testing trip is obviously going to cost more than reading web opinions/advice, but in the long run it will get you exactly what YOU want, not what others convince you into buying.

I am also in a position in choosing which camcorder to get although I already have the Sony HC1, I would definitely want a more professional camcorder that can handle less lighting.

The best thing for you to do is what you indicated. Just download uncompressed samples of each professional camcorder. This is also a good way in comparing how your computer handles HDV and DVCPRO HD.

Zotz digital is in Grants Pass Oregon. Don't know how close that is to your location, but they're a forum sponsor and would probably be able to stage such a test between the prosumer cams.

zotz digital
1328 NW. 6th
Grants Pass, OR 97526
541-472-9522

Tim

There's also the subjective factor of "feel" or "fit and finish" that you just can't get an accurate impression of from web posts and footage. You might really like the full manual lens on the JVC, but have issues with the lack of OIS that the Canon excels at. Or you might love how the HVX operates, but be a little put off by the fact that it's a handycam and isn't the greatest for handheld shots.

You really need to try to arrange to play with all of them at the same time. Heck, you can fly to SLC here and go to TV Specialists and they'll let you take the camera outside and roll off footage with all three. They have a decent little lit setup that you can shoot (a train set like B&H) and montitor the live signal, while also recording and playing back footage...oh, and the coolest thing there, is you can shoot with these cams and then plug them into a Sony 1080p LCoS TV and then REALLY have an idea about how these cameras will look on the best possible consumer TV.

Call the closest pro-video shop to you that has all the cameras in stock and arrange for a special day where you can drive/fly in and test the various cameras yourself.Great advice, and to this I would add, that if some dealer goes to all this trouble to accomodate you this way, then please be considerate and return the favor by buying from them.

I think that is a good advice too.

Great advice, and to this I would add, that if some dealer goes to all this trouble to accomodate you this way, then please be considerate and return the favor by buying from them.

zotz digital
1328 NW. 6th
Grants Pass, OR 97526
541-472-9522


Unfortunately they are not a vendor for the HVX200, so they may be able to deal with the demo as a rental? house, but they are not a authorized reseller.

Best,

Jan

David,

The only other "big" piece of advice I have is that before you go jet-setting around to look at cameras you should first figure out what your general production needs are. Believe it or not, the decision on what equipment to choose is actually done in reverse and mostly based on final output rather than on camera/system specs alone. Here's an example of what I mean:

- Typically, what will your final output be? Broadcast, DVD, converted to film, etc.?
- Is your target audience going to be viewing your content on a 4:3 TV or in a movie theater - or other presentation method?
- What kind of "look" do you want for your work? Film-like or video-like?
- Are you wanting to cover a lot of fast action like sports?
- Will be on location or studio mostly?
- What kind of workflow would you prefer? Traditional tape-based capture or tape-less?
- What is your major business market; General consumer-based (weddings & events) or are you going for the commercial industry (TV spots, corporate training films, web-casts etc), or do you want to make "movies"?

There's probably a few other variables to cover but those are the big ones.

Answer those questions first, THEN find a camera/system that meets your requirements.

Trust me, if you shop for the hardware first without considering what you need there's a good chance you'll end up with something you didn't want/need.

David, I understand you completely. Unlike many of you, I really don't have the option of trying each and every one of these cameras. There are NO pro resellers here. Closest place is Hong-Kong, which requires passport, boat ride, currency exchange, etc. etc.

At the moment it's difficult to arrange a side-by-side test of the latest HD cameras even if you live in a major metropolitan area. I had to pull a lot of strings to line up a comparison test this week in Sacramento, and barely managed to get all four cameras in place the morning of the event. I will say that seeing all four of them together and getting to run them through their paces was very informative, and showed that they are quite different from each other. I won't say more for now but would advise patience and research if you're thinking of buying any of these cameras. As someone else commented, figure out what you need from a camera first, then do your best to determine which camera best meets your needs for that.

Unfortunately they are not a vendor for the HVX200, so they may be able to deal with the demo as a rental? house, but they are not a authorized reseller.


I know, because we considered this place, but it's a good 650.00 miles away, and there's this thing called snow this time of the year.

Seattle and Portland don't have pro houses. San Francisco, I guess is the closest. That's about a $1,000.00 to get there with the hope that some place has the time, and cameras to set up a demonstration.

While the idea of travelling to a place to compare footage is a good idea, the logistics are difficult and pricey.

We did request the DVD from Panasonic fours long months ago.

It never came (or hasn't come), depending on how you look at it.

We've enrolled for the Apple/Panasonic road show in Seattle on March 6th. That' a long drive, and we don't get to compare footage. Just listen.

We're not trying to be difficult, but spending about $8K without first seeing some footage compared to other footage of the same shot is important.

I've suggested this a several occasions to the powers that be, but I do not have any clout.

But there are so many people in a place similar to ours.

At least you can kick the tires on a car.

One thing you might do David, is either:

- A) Purhcase from a place like B&H; test the camera and if it's not what you want, return it and exchange it for another. B&H is very good about returns; I've had to do that several times with both still and video equipment. As long as you keep all the boxes and stuff the item comes with and don't ding it, you'll be OK.

- B) Talk with any reputable pro-video dealer such as Samys, EVS, Omega Broadcast, ProMax (the list goes on) and explain your predicament. See if they would either rent and ship a camera to you for testing or; sell you a camera with the caveat that it might be returned for exhange for another if it doesn't live up to what your needs are.

Version "A" is exactly what I did since absolutely nobody in my area keeps stock of any Z1's, H1's, HD100's and especially HVX's.

I see a business oportunity here. Why can't someone sell these compare result for some money? Let's say US$100 for a DVD. That must be very cost effective solution for the buyer. ;-) And is very profitable for the seller too. US$100 is not that much considering spent US$8,000 for the camera.

Just a suggestion any way.

Regards
Leigh

That's about a $1,000.00 to get there with the hope that some place has the time, and cameras to set up a demonstration.

I worried about it would be unfair for the next buyer to get the camera returned from previous customer for testing for the brand new price. Will B&H give discount price for the camera to the next buyer?

Regards
Leigh

One thing you might do David, is either:

- A) Purhcase from a place like B&H; test the camera and it doesn't do what you want, return it and exchange it for another. B&H is very good about returns; I've had to do that several times with both still and video equipment. As long as you keep all the boxes and stuff the item comes with and don't ding it, you'll be OK.

- B) Talk with any reputable pro-video dealer such as Samys, EVS, Omega Broadcast, ProMax (the list goes on) and explain your predicament. See if they would either rent and ship a camera to you for testing or; sell you a camera with the caveat that it might be returned for exhange for another if it doesn't live up to what your needs are.

Version "A" is exactly what I did since absolutely nobody in my area keeps stock of any Z1's, H1's, HD100's and especially HVX's.

Leigh,

B&H is always selling demos of almost everything they have. They never last long because they do sell for slightly less than full retail, have a full warranty and have been checked out before they get re-sold. If you worry about things like that, how would you ever test drive a car? (laughs)

Your idea for a demo DVD of all the cameras is super. Now if only somebody had the time (and all the cameras) to do it.

Chris Hurd is already working on this very project along with Mike Curtis and Adam Wilt. I'm not sure when the DVD will be available, but I think the testing is going down this month.

I was checking B&H price for some open box special around 20 months ago, but their price seems no significant different from their retail price. So I did not buy items from them except one training DVD.

To your question: how would you ever test drive a car?

I testify that I don't know how to drive a car, so I never test drive a car. ;-)

Regards
Leigh

Leigh,

B&H is always selling demos of almost everything they have. They never last long because they do sell for slightly less than full retail, have a full warranty and have been checked out before they get re-sold. If you worry about things like that, how would you ever test drive a car? (laughs)

I see a business oportunity here. Why can't someone sell these compare result for some money? Let's say US$100 for a DVD. That must be very cost effective solution for the buyer. ;-) And is very profitable for the seller too. US$100 is not that much considering spent US$8,000 for the camera

This is what I proposed a few months ago.

I would do it all myself, and provide footage from two Sony HDV cameras and HVX200.

Not scopes, not sprectrum -- nothing technical.

Just footage of:

1. college basketball game

2. Indoor well lit talking head

3. Whatever else.

Raw files on the DVD.

I don't have an axe to grind. Just want some comparisons from a one person job not doing national commercials.

I proposed this to Jan C. a few weeks ago.

No response.

Not blaming her because she gets hundreds of e mails a day.

I write for a bunch of on line video editing sites. My reputation is based on honestly reviewing what I have.

I'm asking here publicly again that Panasonic consider this.

Anyway, I doubt there any change it will.

Hi David,

Why don't you rent a hxv200?

Just a suggestion ;-)

I believe that who get this dvd out first will first grab a big market share.

Regards
Leigh

Hi David,

Why don't you rent a hxv200?

From where?

Chris Hurd is already working on this very project along with Mike Curtis and Adam Wilt. I'm not sure when the DVD will be available, but I think the testing is going down this month.

Actually the latest plan for the "Texas Shootout" you describe calls for a session in early April. It was necessary to push the date a little later to coordinate everyones' schedule. Look for more info on this from Chris soon!

Actually the latest plan for the "Texas Shootout" you describe calls for a session in early April. It was necessary to push the date a little later to coordinate everyones' schedule. Look for more info on this from Chris soon!

Some people are missing my point. I don't want a bunch of the heavyweights getting together with charts and graphs and scopes and computers.

I just want someone with a Sony and a HVX200 and a Canon if that is possible to take identical footage of the same subject. Take the raw files to a data DVD, and make it available.

A basketball game

a talking head.

Some fast pans of heavily treed areas.

That's it.

I respect all these people, but I don't want to read all the stats, I just want to look at some raw footage of the same subject matter.

A bunch of us have been asking for this or something similar since December.

It's February 16th.

Any way, I'm preaching to the choir.

Some people are missing my point.

With all due respect David, a number of people have tried to make helpful suggestions, but you've thrown cold water on them. Many of us have agonized over camera purchases and wrestled with similar issues, then in the end we just "gave it our best shot" and made a choice. It's unfortunate that your geographic area makes it difficult for you to get hands on experience with the cameras you're considering. But there are such things as frequent flyer miles and cheap PriceLine tickets. A trip to B&H Photo might be a very worthwhile investment, and you could catch a Broadway show or do something else fun while you're there.

You may need to spend a buck or two if you feel that the existing interent resources on these cameras is inadequate. If you do this as a business then I believe your travel expenses could be deductible (talk to your accountant).

With all due respect David, a number of people have tried to make helpful suggestions, but you've thrown cold water on them. .

With all due respect, Boyd, I've not thrown cold water on any suggestion.

We've seriously evaluated every suggestion. Grant's Pass isn't Panny authorized. They don't have any cams, much less Canons for comparisons.

The issues are shooting footage that differentiates the cameras and codecs. Not sitting in a store, and trying to remember what each cam looked like shooting an interior.

I emailed Jan.

We contacted the Seattle Panny representative at Jan's suggestion, but he doesn't have any cams.

Same with Portland.

We looked at San Francisco, but that's a $1,000 bill for us. Even if we can orchestrate it.

Flying 6,000 miles roundtrip to New York City in the dead of winter is beyond our budget, and alot of people asking the same questions as we are.

I have to say I take umbrage with your comment. If something isn't workable, it's not "throwing cold water on it."

Take care

Umbrage? You're taking umbrage? Well I suppose I should probably thank you then. We've had a lot worse than umbrage taken around here recently, so if it's just umbrage you want, you've got it, with my compliments.

I don't want a bunch of the heavyweights getting together with charts and graphs and scopes and computers.Neither do I. That's not what the Texas Shootout is gonna be.

Meanwhile David, I wholeheartedly encourage you to to continue with your planned tests, don't give up, don't take no for an answer. If you're not hearing back from one manufacturer's rep, try another. There are lots of 'em to chose from. Persistence always pays off.

Boyd gave you the best possible advice, by the way. If you don't take his words of wisdom to heart, then I sincerely hope that somebody else will.

Any DVD that comes out of the Texas Shootout will *not* be $100. It'll be more like... cost. I can't speak for Mike Curtis, but I will say that he and I are fairly like-minded on things, and neither of us are looking to profit from a DVD offering... only to cover our expenses, that's all.

Umbrage? You're taking umbrage? Well I suppose I should probably thank you then. We've had a lot worse than umbrage taken around here recently, so if it's just umbrage you want, you've got it, with my compliments.

Neither do I. That's not what the Texas Shootout is gonna be.

Meanwhile David, I wholeheartedly encourage you to to continue with your planned tests, don't give up, don't take no for an answer. If you're not hearing back from one manufacturer's rep, try another. There are lots of 'em to chose from. Persistence always pays off.

Boyd gave you the best possible advice, by the way. If you don't take his words of wisdom to heart, then I sincerely hope that somebody else will.

Any DVD that comes out of the Texas Shootout will *not* be $100. It'll be more like... cost. I can't speak for Mike Curtis, but I will say that he and I are fairly like-minded on things, and neither of us are looking to profit from a DVD offering... only to cover our expenses, that's all.

Chris, you'll have the shootout in April? So is it possible to include the PAL HVX on it? I believe people would be very curious to see the results and diferences between the Pal and Ntsc models... The 1440 lines in pal vs the 1280 in ntsc could be a deciding factor for many film out HD Filmmakers and producers out there!

I shot some comparison footage this week from all four of the latest HD cameras, and will be making that available soon through WEVA. One thing I learned from doing this is that the four cameras are so completely different from each other that their functional differences may be at least as important as image quality concerns, depending on your specific needs. If you don't already have a sense of how these cameras compare in terms of features, physical form and workflow issues, I'd recommend researching that relative to your personal preferences in addition to comparing image quality results.

One thing I learned from doing this is that the four cameras are so completely different from each other that their functional differences may be at least as important as image quality concerns, depending on your specific needs.
The above sentence is one of the most sensible I've come across for a long time. Much of what's been written about resolution, technicalities etc is very interesting theoretically, and it does need to be discussed, but in terms of informing a buying decision it should be quite well down the list. ALL the cameras being discussed have a performance substantially above anything available only a year or two back.

The P2 v tape is a far greater factor, IMO. P2 may be absolutely the right way to go for some people, for others it may make the HVX a non starter. For handheld actuality filming a wide angle lens and good ergonomics are two matters of high importance. So how does one here rate, say, the HVX v the HD100? The HVX is a clear winner from the lens angle point of view, but most people would consider it well beaten by the HD100 from the ergonomic viewpoint. Which is most important to you?

These kinds of decisions are very personal. Given that none of the choices are considered to be lemons it comes down in the end to how you approach what you've bought. Put in the time to get to know how to get the most out of the gear and you'll grow to love it. Of course having bought something like one of these cameras as all of them have some limitations you can just as easily end up hating the thing if you decide to focus on what you see as wrong with it.
In the end perhaps the best (and also silliest) bit of advice I'd give is to buy the one you think looks the sexiest. At least if you start off with a positive feel about it you'll put in the effort to end up loving it.

Certainly don't overlook previous advice about workflow. A lot of pro camera buying decisions are based in just this issue. Availability of reliable service is also not a trivial issue if you're a long way from a major city.

And my last bit of advice, don't ask experts for advice, they'll give you ten choices and ten reasons why none of them are any good.

Umbrage? You're taking umbrage? Well I suppose I should probably thank you then.

Meanwhile David, I wholeheartedly encourage you to to continue with your planned tests, don't give up, don't take no for an answer. If you're not hearing back from one manufacturer's rep, try another. There are lots of 'em to chose from. Persistence always pays off.

Boyd gave you the best possible advice, by the way. If you don't take his words of wisdom to heart, then I sincerely hope that somebody else will.

Any DVD that comes out of the Texas Shootout will *not* be $100. It'll be more like... cost. I can't speak for Mike Curtis, but I will say that he and I are fairly like-minded on things, and neither of us are looking to profit from a DVD offering... only to cover our expenses, that's all.


My comment about the heavyweights wasn't a negative one. I trust you understood that Chris.

I'm aware of the pitfalls of editing with HDV footage, and the workflow issues with p2.

But I want to compare side by side footage for visual quality consistent with the suggestion above to elect a cam based upon what pleases your eye.

We spent $12.00 at a car show last weekend, and looked at dozens of cars from $10,000 to $130,000.00.

But I can't get any representative within a working distance to provide the type of footage that I, and hundreds others, might find beneficial.

I don't even care if someone else shoots it so long as there are locked down talking heads, sports footage and fast pan with three or more cameras of the same subjects.