Hi
I have been looking around to buy a new camera to jump in the HDV.
Since most of my work is documentary shooting I found that the small size of the HDR-A1 is very interesting, and its price is very good for a HDV camera.

However I am a bit concerned about its capabilities, due to my background as cinematographer.
Since Sony does not clarify it properly, I would like to know whether I would have enough manual control over this camera.
For example, I have understood that there is no manual control on the Iris, or to be more precised there is no information on the f-stop the camera is shooting.
Is it true?
Can it be fixed in some way?
What are you doing to control the f-stop at which it is working?
If it is true I think it will be useless for shooting a dramatic short or a feature film. Am I wrong?

Thanks for your help.

Unfortunately, you can't. That is a really annoying thing about the HC1/A1. You can, however, see which f-stop setting was on during playback by enabling the DATA CODE option.

Someone has composed a chart for previous camcorders correlating each EXPOSURE notch with what f-stop/gain it sets the camcorder to. All I know is that at 6 notches from the right, the HC1/A1 has full aperture and 0 gain. Anything after that and gain is introduced.

I think that those of us who have already purchased or are going to buy the A1 right now will be disapointing when Sony fixes (in a future model or revision of this one) this big mistake.
I'm sure this can be solved with a new firmware, maybe made by ourselves. But we have to wait at least 2 years, which is the guarantee given by Sony, at least in Europe.
At least for a camera which is sold as a 'Pro' model, one deserves to know at which f-stop is shooting.
The problem is that in this particular 'niche of market' (very small HDV 'pro' cameras) you have nothing else to choose. Otherwise Sony will fix this stupid problem, which in fact I'm almost sure is not a mistake, it's just the usual stupid and irritating Sony trick of protecting higher markets from lower markerts.
Sometimes I th¡nk that Sony deserves a sort of public demonstration, just to show them that we (their customers) are not stupid.
In the meantime. Those of you who are shooting dramatic movies, How do you deal with this problem?

Agree with all of the above.

The only way to know what aperture the cam is using DURING recording is to become familiar with the exposure bar in Manual exposure mode.

In very dim conditions with cam at max. expsoure (i.e. 1/60th, f1.8, +18db gain) then the in manual mode the bar will be at full-right. Each click left will reduce gain by 3dB. So 6 clicks left, you're at 1/60th, f1.8, 0db).

In good light where the cam is not introducing gain at all, then fix the shutter speed at 1/60th (it is unlikely to go faster than this anyway unless it's VERY bright, but fix it just to be sure) and then shoot in manual mode. The exposure bar will then indicate aperture. You could mark the bottom of the LCD-screen surround to show what aperture corresponds with the position of the bar. As shutter is fixed, and 0gain due to bright light then it is adjusting only aperture.

Yes, it's a bit of a kludge, but it's this way or the highway.

Actually the only alternative, would be if you're shooting a movie and exverything is erady to go, record a 2second clip (shot all framed up), quick playback, see the aperture on the Data code, then back to TAPE mode and record away.
Neither method is wholly satisfactory i agree but that's the way it is.

Final thing, i'm fairly sure that one-click on the manual exposure bar corresponds to half a stop. I *think*...

here's a chart someone put together:

http://hdvforever.com/hdv/exposure/

I'm not sure the bit mapping theory/values are correct - his understanding of 'bits' seems incorrect to me, and some people have claimed there's an internal ND filter which is used to keep the camera at f4 whenever possible. Either way, it's a useful reference for determining your f-stop. I imagine you could just make a label for the edge of the screen which had these mapped out.

according to the service manual's schematics, there is in fact an nd filter in both the hc1 and a1. as to it's strength and when exactly its activated, the manual doesnt say.

Here's a puzzle for ya


Shoot 1/50s or 1/60s according to territory and use auto exposure in low light conditions which bring about F1.8 18db, then hit the backlight button - everything gets brighter by about 1 stop but the display still reads F1.8 18db.

Try it

So where does that stop come from?

it's been previously documented that the Sony Data code doesn't *always* tell the truth about the aperture. Certainly in previous cams this was sometimes the case. And i know as a previous poster said that some Sony cams use ND filters in the optical path, so that could be it, although i doubt it would have an internal ND filter in the path in low-light.

Note: In my earlier post, the 1/60th sec. shutter assumes we're talking abou NTSC cam. for PAL cam, equivalent figure is of course 1/50th sec.

Here's a puzzle for ya


Shoot 1/50s or 1/60s according to territory and use auto exposure in low light conditions which bring about F1.8 18db, then hit the backlight button - everything gets brighter by about 1 stop but the display still reads F1.8 18db.

Try it

So where does that stop come from?

couldnt it be altering the gamma curves? like, the inverse of cinegamma or some crazy solution that only sony could think of.

A good thread guys. The PDX10 did indeed utilise three internal (and undocumented) ND filters, but I was under the impression the A1's cmos chip was much more tolerant of exposure highs than the CCDs of old, and therefore didn't need ND.

I haven't had a close examination of the A1 but I'd suggest that the small cmos chip dimension (1.3") would necessitate ND intervention simply because of the degrading effect of diffraction at small apertures. No camera in the world is immune from this, but then Sony may well have stopped the aperture blades from closing beyond f/4.5 and simply used electronics to vary the exposure as it gets brighter, soaking the cmos output before the signal reaches the tape. This is cleverer and a whole lot cheaper and more reliable.

I'm with you when you all wince at the v'finder displays. The menus are all very clever on their little rolling drum. the touch screen offers all sorts of customisable changes to be made but just a minute, this is a CAMERA first and foremost, isn't it? The ancient TRV900 did better than this, keeping you informed as to the shutter speed, aperture, ND position and gain setting you'd selected, and telling the truth in replay, no less.

But what bugs me is the bottom loading (OK, it's whole lot slimmer than the PDX10 because of this design parameter) and the exposure lever. When shooting at a locked exposure there seems to be no way (unlike the Z1) where you can gently move the exposure up or down a wee bit. Every time you touch that little lever the exposure 'bumps' on screen - quite unacceptable.

Some people claim that ''Sony are not in tune with what serious film makers require in a video camera'', but Sony are not a company to make marketing mistakes, and they rightfully lead the world in digital video. They invent market niches, then blatantly divide and sub-divide such niches again and again to catch the punters.

Serious filmmakers want reliable, solid, tested camcorders that bring home
the goods, every time. If Sony don't make such cameras then I'm a monkey's uncle, and deserve to be painfully ram-raided.

The fact that many people out there have given Sony £1500 apiece shows the skill in Sony's marketing muscle. They knew they were buying bottom loading, single chip, slow start-up MPEG2 recording, touch screen and silly zoom control machines. Sony was hiding nothing from them, yet they went ahead and bought them.

Why? I'll tell you why. Because even with all these disadvantages the A1 is a milestone of camcorder quality that lifts it above the rest of the field by clear and very definite margins. You can spend the same sort of money very easily on a bog-standard DV cam from JVC, Panasonic and Canon, yet these guys didn't. They know why they didn't; they've written about it at length.

In short all their complaints are answered by simply spending more money.
Sony have indeed ''taken note'' The Z1 costs more and is more. Am I being harsh? Indeed I am. My Panasonic MX300 suffers a lot of the same design 'mistakes' such as bottom loading, poor screen visibility in good light, silly filter placement and so on. So why did I buy it? For the very same reasons people buy the A1. It's sharp, small, light and amazingly good value for money.

tom.

Even cheaper that that Tom; under 1000 green if you shop around :)

Fabulous performance with super slow zoom and the magic extra stop. Its even got a CA performance which outstrips the mighty black hedge trimmer.

Timew to get one in before the Tax year ends...

I agree, under 1k pretty easily (for the HC1, mind), but folk are buying these from Sony shops at 1.5k, which was my point John. They buy them with all the design compromises on board simply because the pictures are startlingly good. In automatic.

I see that you accept all this 'compromises' mentioned above for a consumer camera (the HC1) which has a very low price in the USA.
However I'm talking about the A1E, which is a camera sold in Europe for about 2700 Euros ($ 3300 aprox). It's not a bargain, and besides Sony is selling this camera as a 'pro' model, and they are hidding all this 'compromises' to their customers.
In my opinion this is not 'fair-play'. When you buy a 'pro' camera, you deserved to have the most basic information (like the f-stop) offered in many consumer cameras.
I'm already investigating how to fix it via firmware. Unfortunately, I will not be able to start the 'tests' until the guaratee of the camera expires (two years in Europe).
If anyone successfully got it, please let us know.

$3300 for a HDV professional camcorder is a bargain anywhere you go. Like you said however, it is somewhat "unacceptable" to not have gain/iris information in professional camcorders, but I know there are other reasons why SONY chose to do this. For example, for about $200-300 one can get the HDR-FX1 which has all the bells and whistles that professionals need. Now if all these features were available on the cheaper/smaller A1, who in their right mind would bank a little extra for the FX1? Nobody.

We aren't really "compromising" the fact that the A1 lacks this feature, we are accepting it. For us, A1 owners, the tradeoff between having such a feature and having HDV, XLR, DVCAM in a tiny body is a no-brainer.

The PDX10 was also sold as a 'pro camera' Vincent, and it suffered from appalling CCD smear and lack of viewfinder exposure information. On that camera you couldn't even trust the 'display' on tape replay either, yet Sony sold bucket loads of them. Why? because it was the first compact 16:9 that allowed you to use proper XLR mics, and even in automatic mode (ESPECIALLY in automatic mode) it gave great results in uneducated hands.

Sony decided not to have aperture readouts visible in the PDX10's 'finder because for most of the time the camera shoots at f/4.5 and exposure is varied by moving internal ND filters in and out of the light path. It didn't seem to hurt sales - they effectively sold the dull TRV950 to a whole new audience.

Sony marketing know their stuff. For the price of an ordinary SD Canon, JVC or Panasonic you can have a HiDef HC1. If you want XLRs, have the A1. Sony have covered all the exits, and they know it.

tom.

Agree with Tom.

I have HC1000 which is essenitally the non-pro version of the PDX10, but has essentially the same mechanicals minus a few features like XLR etc.
My cam's reported aperture really doesn't vary that much. in good light it'll shoot at f3.4 or f4 or f4.5. Low light obviously it drops down to f1.8 max.

But i can't recall it ever *reporting* (via data code) an aperture of smaller than f4.5 -ish. Also you can *hear* it moving ND filters into or out of the optical path on power-up. At least i *think* that's what the 'clunking' noise is on power-up. Power-up with lens cap on, obviously it's going to move all ND filters out of the way, and go max.ap, max.gain due to pitch blackness.

However I am a bit concerned about its capabilities, due to my background as cinematographer.

... or to be more precised there is no information on the f-stop the camera is shooting.


I know why you must have control of the F-stop with SOME film cameras, but why would you need it with a video camera?

What are you trying to accomplish?

Stu, the HC1000 was the next model on from the TRV950, which itself was the PDX10. So your HC1000 (good though it is in auto) was a dumbded down TRV950.

I suspect the clunking you hear at switch-on is the OIS elements being pulled into position electromagnetically, not the internal ND filters leaping about. They are tiny slivers of gelatin, very small indeed and very light.

Steve - you would want control over the iris primarily for depth of field reasons. On a camera such as the VX2100 you can slot either or both of the NDs into the light path, each one altering the taking aperture, each one varying the amount of background bluring.

tom.

Well, I see I'm alone against 'Sony's way' to do marketing.
I know that for a bit more money I can get a FX1 (with many 'compromises' as well, like not having XLR and others), but right now the stronger point of the A1 is it's small size (very handy for shooting when you don't want to be noticed as a 'pro'). And I will pay even more money for the A1 if it will give me the information on f-stop.
Why am I so desperate asking to have the ability to set f-stop? Because I have been a photographer for many years, and I think like a DOP (depth of field is an important point as Tom says). I like to shoot manually unless it's imposible for any reason. If I have to shoot I use to take always my lightmeter. Like one book says 'every frame is a Rembrandt'. So I am one of this kind of cinematographer.
I start my jump to HDV with the A1 to make this camera the 'B camera' (if I like its footage and workflow of the 1080i format, and then buying a Z1) and for shooting documentaries, but right now it's the 'A camera' and I would like to test the HDV format doing some shortfilms with my friends, and at least for me it's imposssible to shoot a decent shorfilm without the f-stop information.

Besides I'm not sure that 1080i and HDV is the future, it's just a transition format. I think the future is progressive and tapeless.

Thanks for all your replies.
This thread is being very interesting with all your posts.

You're right Vincent. HDV is a transition format.

Some thoughts on the Panasonic HVX200, the 'DVX100 on P2 steroids'.
Remember this is genuine HD, not HDV.
The problem I see is that P2 doesn't actually offer a solution to any problem. The fact it is non linear is great. But it replaces the old problems of tape with new problems of its own. That being the risky business of having to trust that you can offload your footage every 18 minutes and that you don't have a hard drive crash or transfer error (as some people have had) before wiping the card to carry on shooting. You have to carry a laptop as well, of course.

As for the price, Top-Teks told me that they expected to be selling in (from
March) at £3,500+VAT, with 4GB cards going out for £430+VAT. Here's the
dollar prices:
4GB P2 High Performance Card $650.00
8GB P2 High Performance Card $1,400.00

That's eye-watering, even admitting their relevance in the dusty, bumpy
field.

The HVX200 is a bold step in the inevitable direction, but possibly a year
early. It makes sense for a new start-up, but much less so for a conversion
from tape. The next year should provide the experimental evidence either
way. My view is that P2 is a step along the inevitable road away from tape.

tom.

One little bit of info about A1 is that i've heard from several different places now that a certain George Lucas bought a truck-load of Sony A1's for use by him and his company. So i guess he copes without knowing too well what the aperture is !! (Unless Sony make a 'George Lucas' special version...).

Vincent - i do agree with you on the aperture reporting (well....non-reporting). I can see Sony leaving it off the consumer HC1 but why leave it off the A1. So i empathise with you there.

I suppose as Tom said, they KNEW they'd sell bucketloads anyway as there's just no current competition for a small light HDV camera for small-ish money.
I think their Ace of Trumps is there sensor-building expertise - this is the heart of a cam and allows them to get these sort of cams out before the opposition. Sony sells sensors to quite a lot of other companies. (like Minolta for example.)

ps. RIP Minolta cameras. :-/

Some thoughts on the Panasonic HVX200, the 'DVX100 on P2 steroids'.
Remember this is genuine HD, not HDV.

I'm not sure that's an accurate statement - it implies that HDV isn't genuine HD and that DVCProHD somehow is - but both make compromises which put their specs at less than "true" HD. DVCProHD may have more color information and less compression, but it also has even less pixels than HDV. In fact, when talking about 720p HDV could easily be considered "more" genuine HD because it has the full resolution of the HD spec - 1280x720 - whereas DVCProHD is only 960x720.

This is not to say the HVX200 isn't a better camera than some HDV cameras, but neither one is necessarily more or less a genuine HD format - they simply make different compromises which reflect the varying needs of end users.

Steve -- you would want control over the iris primarily for depth of field reasons.

If one had a DOF chart for the lens -- one could set a specific aperature -- but there is no chart. This is not a cine lens.

So one simply opens the iris wide which you can clearly see two ways: you can see the INDICATOR MOVE and you can actually see what's in focus -- and what's not -- in the viewfinder.

So are there are any other reasons why one would need to know the specific iris value?

You're right Steve - we all have wysiwyg viewfinders. They may be pretty small and of low resolution, but they do show us the shot at taking aperture, white balance, shutterspeed and gain settings. As such we do get to see the dof as we'll see it later, unlike with ciné lenses of old.

But as a photographer I do like to be in control, and by that I mean I like to know my settings. I might want to use max aperture and higher shutter speeds with absolutely no gain up. I might want to select f/4 so that I can pan in progressive scan and stitch the pictures together later without fear of vignetting giving the stitch away. I might well want to avoid f/8 and f/11 for the simple reason that diffraction means I lose sharpness.

And on the test bench for evaluating camera A against camera B it's invaluable to know exactly what's going on, even when the aperture and shutter speed readouts are only ever to the nearest half stop (which they are of course).

Cameras such as my three chip Panasonic fudge viewfinder information, telling me I'm shooting at f/16 when quite clearly I'm not. It may be an extrapolation of the f/4.5 + the internal ND, but I feel it's somewhat patronising and I'd really rather know the truth.

tom.

tom.

I might want to use max aperture and higher shutter speeds with absolutely no gain up. I might want to select f/4 so that I can pan in progressive scan and stitch the pictures together later without fear of vignetting giving the stitch away. I might well want to avoid f/8 and f/11 for the simple reason that diffraction means I lose sharpness.


Your answers are all good ones, but I'm not sure they make sense given the way the A1/HC1 works. To prevent the shutter-speed from seeking it's own speed, you generally must lock it at 1/60th Sec. At 1/30th you'll have too much blur. At 1/120th you'll start getting strobing.

With video cameras, sensitivty varies because of gamma -- which you don't know and can't control -- so you cannot set the iris based upon a lightmeter reading.

In fact, because these cameras add/remove ND filters -- whose values you don't know -- as the AE system decides when and what, you really are NOT in control.

Moreover, the very limted iris range means you fundamentally only have about five exposure zones: GAIN-ON, OPEN, ALMOST OPEN, MIDDLE, and ALMOST CLOSED.

To avoid loss of image quality, avoid GAIN-ON and OPEN.

For minimum DOF, you need ALMOST OPEN.

Most of the time you want MIDDLE to avoid loss of image quality.

And, for maximum DOF you want ALMOST CLOSED.

Thus my question was a subtle way of saying the issue isn't the lack of visual F-stop indication, but that the lack of markings falls out of the way these cameras work.

Note, I'm not saying you can't use one of these camcorders. Only that you must translate your cine techniques to the camera's AE system. And, I think that is possible if you think in terms of ALMOST OPEN (F2>F4), MIDDLE (F5.6>F8), and ALMOST CLOSED (F11>F16).

My FX1/Z1 book covers much of this for the A1/HC1.

Other posts describe how you can mark the indicator.

Steve, you say: ''In fact, because these cameras add/remove ND filters -- whose values you don't know -- as the AE system decides when and what, you really are NOT in control.''

This is quite correct and CCD camcorders have been using internal (and undisclosed) ND filtratiuon for very many years as a solution to the 'tiny chip diffraction' problem. But I'm not convinced that the cmos chip used in the A1/HC1 uses any internal ND. Can you confirm or deny if internal ND is used on this model? I don't have one so am not in a position to find out.

No good asking Sony as the three internal NDs used in the PDX10 (to great effect I might add) were never mentioned anywhere, in any technical spec. Panasonic have been more open about it on the DVC30 however.

tom.

But I'm not convinced that the cmos chip used in the A1/HC1 uses any internal ND. Can you confirm or deny if internal ND is used on this model?

I can't prove it either. But folks have posted this -- and the limited iris range AND the fact you can lock shutter-speed sort of indicates that something must be done at very bright illumination levels to prevent over-exposure.

i've *heard* that it is possible to see the ND filters move in and out by looking down the lens barrel. I suppose do it in dim light, and then shine a flashlight down the lens barrel and you can allegedly see the tiny ND filter swing into the optical path. only thing that may get in the way is the aperture leaves, but i don't know whether they're in-front of or behind the internal ND filters.

I know someone's done this and he said he can see the internal ND filters move about when he changes lighting levels.

Ok, I just checked my HC1 with a flashlight. The iris is wide open in the first 7 positions (starting at the far right of the onscreen exposure bar) of the exposure lever. From 8-12 the iris closes until it is about halfway closed (it's a 4 blade diamond shaped iris, by the way). From 13-19 it appears as if 2 ND filters slide in - each one stops at 4 different positions. From 20-23 the iris continues to close (with both ND's fully in place) and at 24 the iris closes completely.

This matches the results of the data code chart here: http://hdvforever.com/hdv/exposure/ and confirms in my mind that the theory there about mapping the bit values is incorrect. The NDs are used to allow the widest range of exposures at f.4 probably because that is the sharpest spot for this lens. R.P. Cuenco mentioned above that the service manual references 2 NDs so I think at this point we can consider it confirmed. I'll put together a new chart with the accurate f-stop and ND information for each position and post it up tomorrow.

I can't prove it either. But folks have posted this -- and the limited iris range AND the fact you can lock shutter-speed sort of indicates that something must be done at very bright illumination levels to prevent over-exposure.

Just to clarify though, if you lock shutter speed and exposure the ND's are not added automatically to prevent overexposure - the camera is perfectly happy letting you screw up your exposure completely if you wish, so you do have the ability to completely stop any automatic exposure. The NDs correspond to repeatable positions on the exposure bar.

Just to clarify though, if you lock shutter speed and exposure the ND's are not added automatically to prevent overexposure - the camera is perfectly happy letting you screw up your exposure completely if you wish, so you do have the ability to completely stop any automatic exposure.

If you lock ONLY the shutter-speed -- do the ND filters continue to work?

I assume they do as part of the AE system.

+++++++

The iris is wide open in the first 7 positions (starting at the far right of the onscreen exposure bar) of the exposure lever.

Of these 7 positions -- how many are GAIN UP positions?

And what GAIN values do they represent?

Great job testing your camcorder!

If you lock ONLY the shutter-speed -- do the ND filters continue to work?

Of course. Based on the data code from some full auto stuff I've shot the camera basically does it's best to keep things at f.4 whenever possible and primarily achieves this via the NDs and shutter speed(if you don't lock it).

Of these 7 positions -- how many are GAIN UP positions?

And what GAIN values do they represent?

I'll have to shoot a test and check the data code to confirm, but based on the chart I linked above the values should be 18db, 15db, 12db, 9db, 6db, 3db, and 0db - all at f1.8.

I'll have to shoot a test and check the data code to confirm, but based on the chart I linked above the values should be 18db, 15db, 12db, 9db, 6db, 3db, and 0db - all at f1.8.
Yes that'll be it. Then going further left leaves gain at 0db and opens up aperture half-a-stop each stop (i think). (From my testing on a different Sony cam admittedly but am pretty sure it's same on HC1).

One question i have is: can someone confirm that 6db of gain is equivalent to 1 stop ?

Stu, the moving (and undocumented) ND filters are very obvious on the PDX10 and I've written about it in my various test reports, so I assume they'll be just as clearly visible on the A1/HC1.

What actually happens is that if you're filming at full telephoto in the manual exposure mode the camera will open to full aperture of f/2.8 (f/2.1 in the A1's case) If it gets brighter - or you want to film at a smaller aperture - you can film at f/4. If it gets brighter still the camera has no more apertures up its sleeve - it now resorts to using the first of the three ND filters. If it gets brighter still the second and then the third ND come into the optical path.

The PDX10 has three ND filters, all of them automatic in operation, all of them uncoated gelatin filters that bob in and out of the light path depending on ambient lighting conditions. It works well, and their position in the element line-up means they're way out of focus. This is necessary as you're often filming through the 'edge' of the filter. Not nice, but invisible.

Turning the exposure wheel (actually an ND wheel for most of its life) puts unacceptable half-stop visible jumps into the footage. This is a crazy state of affairs that seems to have been carried over into the A1.

Evan, if the diaphragm in your A1 is anything like the iris in the PDX10, then you'll find it's not four bladed but two. After the 'perfect circle' six bladed diaphragm of the PD100, this looks like penny pinching, and Herr Zeiss would not be best pleased. And you're right - f/4 is the 'perfect' aperture for a 1/3" chipped camcorder. Well away from both vignetting and diffraction.

Stu - you're quite correct. 6 dB of gain is the equivalent of one stop.

tom.

This is necessary as you're often filming through the 'edge' of the filter. Not nice, but invisible.

This appears to be what's happening on the HC1/A1, although I could only see 2 distinct filters which stop at 3 positions across the aperture.



Evan, if the diaphragm in your A1 is anything like the iris in the PDX10, then you'll find it's not four bladed but two. After the 'perfect circle' six bladed diaphragm of the PD100, this looks like penny pinching, and Herr Zeiss would not be best pleased.

I could see four blades which appear to each move independently, producing a diamond-shaped opening which is wider than it is tall. I'm going to try and photograph the aperture & NDs and I'll post a link once they're up.

I've read a lot of interesting comments on this thread, but I think we have missed the main point and the reason why I started this thread, which was the capabilities of the A1 to shoot a dramatic short or feature film.
Some people asked me why I need to know at which f-stop I'm shooting.
To answer the question we just have to go to the basics of filmmaking.
Let's take a dramatic scene of 'shot and reaction-shot' betwen two actors (if you don't understand what I mean, see the PostData below). In this kind of shots you have some basics: one of the most important is that you have to shoot both shots with the same f-stop (usually 5.6 f-stop in a standard camera). That's what I learned in the Film School.
So the point is how do you know you are following this rule, which I think is one of the most basic rules of filmmaking, without any feed-back from your camera (The A1 in this case).
This is point I wanted to clarify. This thread has become very interesting (and I would like to thank you for all the comments), but we have moved the target from the basics of filmmaking to a sort of 'A1 engineering forum', and in the in end I have learned some 'tricks' to fix something which should be fixed by Sony simply updating the firmware to let you know at which f-stop you are shooting.
To sum up, Sony has made a great marketing mistake not giving this information to the user of a camera sold as 'pro' model. By the way, Sony's marketing is not perfect (in my humble opinion is quite bad), they have made a lot of marketing mistakes (despite they use to have the leading technology), and that's the reason why Panasonic or JVC are still alive and quicking: because they have more 'fair-play' with their customers. I hope the new chairman (which for the first time is not japanese) is going to improve their marketing way (notice that Sony has made most of their profits with the PlayStation, not with video cameras).

If I had the chance to return my A1, I will do it, and I look for something really 'pro', something without stupid 'compromises' hidden by the seller and the producer. Unfortunately I can't, and I will have to buy another camera to shoot my 'indie shorts'.

PD: As you have noticed english is not my mother tongue, and sometimes I can't find the right words to explain what I want to say.
Regarding this post, I'm not sure about the expresion 'shot and reaction-shot', but what I mean is the situation of two actors in a conversation, while the camera is shooting at each one of them, from a diffent position of the camera.

If you had a two A1 camera shoot on the same subject Vincent they could both be set the same by having their exposures locked down whilst sitting side by side looking at the same subject. You wouldn't know what this aperture was, but then you could hardly blame Sony for this as you bought the cameras knowing this situation existed. Sony hid nothing from you.

On the A1, here's what happens when you record a few seconds at each "stop" setting of the exposure control:

F1.8 18dB
F1.8 12dB
F1.8 6dB
F1.8 0dB
F2.4 0dB
F3.4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F5.6 0dB
F8 0dB

So, clearly the neutral comes in at F4 (and does 3 stops-worth), and when that runs out, it carries on with the iris. That's certainly what I see when I peer into the lens with a little Maglite. For this run, the shutter was fixed at 1/50.

So you think Sony's marketing is quite bad? I think otherwise, as I've seen them introduce formats (Hi-8, Micro MV, DVD, HDV etc) and then go on to sub-divide the niche they've created. If Sony don't make the camera you're after then my guess is it's not being manufactured.

Many of Sony's cameras have kept you in the dark over what aperture is being used when you shoot. The TR2000, TRV950, PDX10, HC1000, HC1 and now the A1. It's nothing new, Sony have always offered cameras with full readouts: VX1000 and 2000, TRV900, PD100, PD170, FX1, Z1 and so on. Everyone's catered for.

Sales, design and marketing are an unlikely mix of people. The marketing
muscle promotes Sony (say) as the best quality camcorders in the world. The sales people want the maximum amount of gizmos included with every camera because it ups the perceived value for money. The design department want to make the best camera they can at a particular sales point.

So Design says that if the camera's going to sell for £500 it can have a very sharp 10x zoom or a so-so 20x zoom.

The Marketing people want to go with the 10x zoom - that way the magazine
tests say how good Sony lenses are.

Sales want to go with the 20x zoom. They know Mr Punter will have the 20x
zoom Canon on the store counter along with the 10x zoom Sony, and Mr
Punter will walk with the Canon.

So Sales say: make the camcorder take very good stills then. Design say:
but that will make it less good in low light. Sales say: put a flash gun on
it then. Marketing say: That will spoil the sales of our still cameras, so
reduce the camcorder's stills quality.

Sales agree. Add sepia, fades, zoom trails and fancy menus. Design points
out that this will raise the cost, and Marketing strikes a middle ground, while admitting that such useless add-ons help move the metal.

So camcorders - ALL camcorders, are compromises. The VX2100 has a 12x zoom whereas the Canon GL2 has a 20x zoom. Sony is superb in low light, the Canon is cheaper. VX takes so-so stills, the Canon is better. And so on.

Which is why people should avoid mega-pixel camcorders - they're trying to
be jack of all trades, yet are master of none. Camcorders with 25x zooms
that cost £350 will struggle in average light, let alone poor light. Their
colour balance circuits will be mediocre, their microphones will be awful
and they won't take much punishment.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Remember Sales knows best: huge long specifications which include useless offerings are great on the sales counter.

tom.

I made a little f-stop table, printed it on a sticker and stuck it under the exposure bar. It can be a bit tough to read because its so small but it does help. The link below is the vectorized file.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~mdlee/fstopmeter.eps

Wow Min, very neat.

Do you think you could post a picture of how you attached it to your camera?

So the point is how do you know you are following this rule, which I think is one of the most basic rules of filmmaking, without any feed-back from your camera (The A1 in this case).

You do so by learning how to use your specific camera to achieve the particular look you want or need. This is something you need to do whether the camera tells you it's f-stop or not.

Using the same f-stop when doing a shot/reverse shot is not a bad idea, and it's a very easy thing to achieve with this camera. Lock the exposure, shoot one angle, then shoot the other without changing the exposure setting. Both shots will have the same aperture setting and therefore the same picture characteristics (especially if you also keep the zoom setting consistent). This doesn't require you to know what f-stop you are using - you use the one which gives you the depth of field you want when looking at the monitor. All you need to know is that the f-stop doesn't change if the exposure setting doesn't change.

Trying to always use f5.6 when doing a shot/reverse shot because that's what you were told in film school is a terrible idea. Why f5.6? f5.6 is going to produce very different looks depending on the camera and lens combination. If f5.6 is indeed a standard convention in hollywood films it's most likely referring to a 35mm film camera and will produce a look which is much different than your A1 will produce. You just need to figure out where to set the exposure bar on your camera to achieve the look you want.

All of the technical stuff we've ended up discussing in this thread will enable you to determine the best settings for your A1 when you are shooting your dramatic short or feature film. Without an understanding of the technology behind the camera you will be stuck following guidelines like the "f5.6 for shot/reverse shot" which are essentially meaningless. The A1 provides sufficient control over the image to produce pretty much any look or type of video you wish to shoot - but it's your understanding of how to use the camera which will result in great video, not features like an f-stop readout.

And the lack of an f-stop readout is not a marketing mistake - there is simply no real competition at this point for the HC1/A1. If an f-stop readout is an absolute necessity for you, then you spend a little more and get an FX/Z1. Sony knows this will be the case for a lot of people and will push them to the more expensive version - so it's not a marketing mistake but a good marketing move. Until someone else can come up with some competition in the same price range that's the way it'll be.

Lock the exposure, shoot one angle, then shoot the other without changing the exposure setting. Both shots will have the same aperture setting and therefore the same picture characteristics (especially if you also keep the zoom setting consistent). This doesn't require you to know what f-stop you are using -- you use the one which gives you the depth of field you want when looking at the monitor. All you need to know is that the f-stop doesn't change if the exposure setting doesn't change.

You've expressed very well WHY I asked him the question of WHY he needed to know the F-stop. And, let's add more to your answer.

The reality is that there is no DOF control with a 1/3" imager camera except by shooting at 1.8 or 2.4. This, of course, is not the setting he'll want for optimum image quality. So the concept of 5.6 must be discarded immediately if he wants minimum DOF! Worse, he'd have to shoot at near full Tele which may, in a small room, make his arranging the shot difficult because of minimum focus distance at Tele.

I'm convinced there are a huge number of folks who learn a way of doing things on one of type of equipment and don't understand the rules change with a different type of equipment. Fundamentally he needs only make a series of 4 marks on the LCD that are these openings:

1) F2.4 0dB -- only for minimum DOF

2) F3.4 0dB

3) F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB

4) F5.6 0dB

Clearly, as long as he keeps exposure wihin (3) -- which he must do by lighting -- he's fine.

Question -- with an AE driven system he must also keep shutter-speed constant, which he does by SETTING it at 1/60th. Once it is SET, when he adjusts Exposure I assume ONLY the Iris is being controlled -- correct?

But now when you LOCK exposure -- is it certain the Shutter-speed remains as it was as well as well as the Iris remaining as it was? Right now I can't remember if you have to switch the Shutter-speed to AUTO *before* LOCKing the exposure.

Question -- with an AE driven system he must also keep shutter-speed constant, which he does by SETTING it at 1/60th. Once it is SET, when he adjusts Exposure I assume ONLY the Iris is being controlled -- correct?

But now when you LOCK exposure -- is it certain the Shutter-speed remains as it was as well as well as the Iris remaining as it was? Right now I can't remember if you have to switch the Shutter-speed to AUTO *before* LOCKing the exposure.

Yes - this is one of the odd interface things on this camera which seemed to lead to the erroneous conclusion early on that you could not control/lock both shutter and iris independently & simultaneously (which apparently is the case with the earlier JVC HDV camera).

If you set a shutter speed and then press the exposure button, the shutter speed button becomes grayed out and you cannot change the speed further - however, the speed doesn't change from what you locked it at. The current speed will still be displayed on screen, and despite forcing extremes of both under- and overexposure I have never been able to get it to change(either as indicated or visually) once locked. Now using the exposure lever is only changing the gain (first 6 positions) or iris+NDs. If you want to change the shutter speed you have to press the exposure button (returning the exposure to auto), change the shutter speed, and then press the exposure button again to return to manual control. So you can control & lock both simultaneously, you just can't adjust them both simultaneously - which I don't consider a significant limitation because in most cases I will set the shutter speed once up front for a particular situation and then make all further exposure adjustments with the exposure control.

Thanks for all your answers.
But just a few more details:

1. Doing a shot/reverse shot at 5.6 f-stop was JUST AN EXAMPLE, that you learn as soon as you start a course in a Film School. Of course I know it varies from camera to camera, and even for different dramactic situations.

2. The question above mentioned by Steve is very interesting. Is there any answer to it?. I think if you lock the exposure, probably the camera will change the shutter.

3. What happens when you do your shot/reverse shot at a different time (maybe one of the actors is ill, or arrives later, and your schedule doesn´t allow you to spend your time waiting)? Maybe I will be able to fix it with the way some of you had posted. But why should I spend so many time doing this things, when every camera sold as a 'pro' model (except the A1, as far as I know) have direct access to the iris?

4. Someone said that Sony has hidden nothing. I don't agree. I bought the camera based on the information provided by Sony and some 'independent' rewiews on Internet (I could not do it in a different way, because in my area there are not too many stores where you can purchase the 'pro' models).
So, I just have the oportunity to read the information provided by Sony, and I can assure that they never mentioned the lack of iris control or information on the f-stop. The same applies to the seller. And the 'supposed' independent reviews on Internet didn´t mention it (by the time I bought the camera, the only problem found by these people was 'the bottom loading').
And I would like to clarify that I'm talking about the A1 (a 'pro' model according to Sony's information), not the HC1 or FX1 (which are sold as 'consumer cameras'). How could I imagine that a 'pro' model lacks an appropiate iris control? I could not. For the forthcoming Sony's products I bought I will be more cautious...if I bought something made by Sony again (I doubt it).

My advice for serious filmmakers (aside those who shot docucumentaries) is to look for a different model (or brand) with less 'copromises' which I consider essenttials. If you don't believe me try reading 'cinematography.com' forums or others similar to this, and you'll realize what the cinematographers think about the A1: just the same as myself.

Vincent, you say: ''I think if you lock the exposure, probably the camera will change the shutter.''

This doesn't make sense. If you lock the exposure then you lock the iris, the shutter speed, the gain setting and the ND filtration. If it's locked, it's locked.

I can understand that you feel upset that Sony were 'economical with the truth' when giving you the technical specification of the A1, but I assure you the PDX10 (the model before the A1) was exactly the same - no proper aperture readouts - even in the replay mode. Sony sold bucket-loads of them. Why? Great pictures from a tiny box.

Panasonic are shy too. I have the DVX100A brochure - many glossy pages of enthusiasm for the camera and yet not once does it tell me what the maximum aperture of the lens is at full telephoto. And this for a camera! It's the same with all their cameras - especialy with the ones that use internal ND filters. They keep quiet about the compromises.

Why didn't you ask here for info before you paid for the A1? That's what the web's so good at - telling the truth behind the glossy brochure pages. Sony will continue to sell the A1 simply because today there's simply no competition for it at that price/size/weight/performance point. It produces pictures way better than any Canon, Panasonic, Sharp, JVC - even when those others cost twice the price. And for that very good reason you must accept some compromises.

Go out and enjoy your A1. Rejoice in the fact that you can shoot alongside people with much bigger and more expensive cams and KNOW that you're bring home footage that's 4x as sharp. That's quite a knockout punch.

tom.

Look, the reason this A1 camera should have the f-stops rather than 'clicks' or '+/- notches' is that we already have a set standard for lens settings - f-stops!

Why the need to translate '6 clicks from the right' to '0db' when we already have correct, consistant nomenclature for this? Terms that are actually used by the very same camera when you read the data of an existing shot on tape?

Don't defend Sony for 'not hiding anything,' it's OK as a consumer to ask for more, especially when Sony markets this as a 'pro' cam. Pros use 'f-stop' in their canon, it's a standard.

It's not our fault Sony didn't put the pro features in - telling someone they "should have looked here first to learn more about the camera before they bought it," well, that's just batting for the other team, in my eyes. I also had trouble with features missing, despite some seriously believable signposts telling me otherwise:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=410885&postcount=13

Saying the consumer needs to be more aware and not purchse something if the features you want aren't there... That logic works well if there are a lot of choices in the market, like say, if you're looking for a 5-megapixel still camera - there are a lot of those, and you can 'punish' the manufacturer by not purchasing the camera lacking features you want. Evan Donn presented this same point very well above.

But this is a very limited market with under 5 cameras at this price point and physical size. There really is no other choice, so asking why certain things are omitted is fine with me. It's still a great value, I know - but Sony created an 85% solution when they could have answered 95% or 100%. Hopefully Sony will actually create an A1 with the pro settings of a Z1; it's still a different camera with different strengths.

Personally, I could have stretched (_quite_ a stretch for me) financially and gotten the Z1, but the real appeal of the A1 was the size - I know I'm missing the 3 CCDs, the manual buttons and knobs everywhere, but taking some of the electronic features and dumbing them down is disappointing, and I don't mind saying it - that's why you make the HC1. But the A1?

Yeah, of course I still bought it.

But this is a very limited market with under 5 cameras at this price point and physical size. There really is no other choice, so asking why certain things are omitted is fine with me. It's still a great value, I know - but Sony created an 85% solution when they could have answered 95% or 100%. Hopefully Sony will actually create an A1 with the pro settings of a Z1; it's still a different camera with different strengths.


My point isn't to defend Sony's BS marketing tactics. But just because I don't like them doesn't mean Sony is wrong to do them.

The answer to the question of why certain things are omitted is that there is no other choice. Not only is there no other choice, but at the next step up (the Z1) there isn't even much - you'd have to stretch as much or more again to go from a Z1 to a competitor's product as you would to go from an A1 to the Z1. So the choice is really between two Sony products, and I completely understand why Sony would try to skew that choice towards the more expensive camera. I don't like it, and of course I have the right to ask Sony for more, but Sony also has the right to do whatever they want with their products.

All that aside, my point for Vincent is that if you've already got the A1, you can't return it and don't want to sell it and get something else, you can still go out and shoot great videos with it. Yes it means you'll have to learn to deal with the quirks of the camera, but I have yet to work with a camera where that wasn't the case.

Contact Sony and let them know that you're unhappy with their marketing tactics and that you won't be purchasing any products from them in the future. Let them know that you aren't the only one and that this is a general concern in the community. Write up your own reviews of the camera and post them online to help others avoid the same situation you find yourself in.

But while you're doing all that take the A1 and learn how to use it to take the images you have in your head and put them onscreen - despite Sony's marketing decisions the camera is still capable of producing an amazing image - as long as you know how to use it (and can give it enough light).

I bought the camera based on the information provided by Sony and some 'independent' rewiews on Internet (I could not do it in a different way, because in my area there are not too many stores where you can purchase the 'pro' models).

I can't image buying ANY camera without trying it out first! Every Best Buy has had the HC1 for months. If you would have tried one out you would have found the lack of indication.

I also can't image buying a camcorder without going on-line.

But, the bottom line is that there is no block to your using the camcorder and although I think this is a great discussion because of all the technical information -- the "Sony didn't tell me" whine is getting old.

Yes - this is one of the odd interface things on this camera which seemed to lead to the erroneous conclusion early on that you could not control/lock both shutter and iris independently & simultaneously (which apparently is the case with the earlier JVC HDV camera).

Its the JVC I was thinking about so this is good news indeed.

Control is really simple with your chart:

F2.4 0dB -- only for minimum DOF

F3.4 0dB

F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB

F5.6 0dB

Simply draw a bar underneath all the F4 settings and a dot at F2.4. And then another bar under:

F1.8 12dB
F1.8 6dB

The latter indicates settings with added gain but not too much added noise.

About HC1 aperture...

http://cinoche.blogsource.com

I can not imagine expressing my thoughts better than Bill McMullen has done. I agree with him in every opinion he has given.
The f-stops are standards in the 'pro' wordl, and the Z1 is not the answer to my needs, because I bought the A1 mainly for it's small size which allows me to put the camera in my suitcase together with my laptop and shooting while I'm travelling attending meetings all around Europe.

Some of you had suggested to contact Sony. I've already done it.
And the good thing is that under the European Union 'Consumer Protection Laws' one could sue them (for unfair advertising), and despite they should have the best lawyers in Europe I think there are chances to beat them in court. But of course I'm not going to do it, I have to recognise I have over-reacted about this matter.


What I can not understand is why some of you are so passionately defending Sony's position? If you do not complain, Sony will never see the need to improve their products or make their advertisement more 'transparent'. But in a free market that's precisely our strenght as customers: fight to get the most for our money.


And last but not least, and this is one of few points I agree with Steve (aside of technical advice), the "Sony didn't tell me" whine is getting old.

Let's talk on how can we can get the most from what we actually have.

PD: Take a look to the link posted by Rodolphe, I found it very interesting.

''What I can not understand is why some of you are so passionately defending Sony's position?''

Because unlike all the other camcorder manufacturers they appear to have a defined link between design, sales and marketing. If you want apertures shown on your Canon you have just three models to choose from (and I'm assuming the XL2 is still in production). Panasonic? Just two models Think the XLR equipped DVC30 is included? Nope.

Sony sell the VX2100, PD170, FX1 and Z1, and all of them pull no punches. If Sony are to be smacked for 'with-holding info from the public' then Canon and Panasonic better go into hiding.

tom.