So, I gotta admit - I am torn between the Canon and the Pany hvx200
For my needs (let's just call it low budget film/ video projects)

1) Price
is a big deal - what about these web stores
http://www.bestpricecameras.com/prodetails.asp?prodid=342803&display=2
I assume there are no accessories,
but
2000$ cheaper !

2) Direct Capture - forget P2 cards,
with the Panny I will be recording direct to Apple PB laptop (I hate the precess of re digitizing)
>How well does this direct capture work with the Canon Firewire into Apple? I realize that 24F is not supported.
But,
with Canon I can pull in a 1080/60 "capture now" and then convert it to 24p in Cinema tools ...?
(I know there is also a firestore for extra$)

THOUGH - I must say I am anamored by Elton's
>>Recort to HDV - tape
>>SDI out to a Kona card (for 550$ - I would put one into a friends G5)
>> Re Capture as DVCPRO HD & Edit

3) Third this is just my spoiled butt waiting for a Relay lens I can use with a 35mm adaptor...

!!!I am SO on the Fence,
I realize the Canon will allow me to grow more than the HVX (Unless ther is an Andromeda for the HVX)
The extra 2-3k of the Canon just puts it out of range --

1) Price is a big deal - what about these web stores
http://www.bestpricecameras.com/prod...2803&display=2
I assume there are no accessories, but 2000$ cheaper !

No No No No
NO NO NO NO

http://www.resellerratings.com/seller8754-p5-s1-d1.html

Ahh David,
Thanks,
I knew it was too good to be true...
..snif , snif...

The best I've seen for the Canon is $8499.00 at B&H Photo during Macworld.

Seriously, you might want to consider a Z1U and a Kona LH capture card and go straight to DVCProHD 720P on the fly.

THOUGH - I must say I am anamored by Elton's
>>Recort to HDV - tape
>>SDI out to a Kona card (for 550$ - I would put one into a friends G5)
>> Re Capture as DVCPRO HD & Edit...

The extra 2-3k of the Canon just puts it out of range --

The tape to DV100 through SDI works really well. Consider HDV an acquisition format only and you will probably be happier with the SDI workflow. Remember, if you have any greenscreen shoots, it's really not that big a deal to lug a computer to a studio and just pipe the signal into DV100 or other i-frame codecs and get a great key. People have even achieved good keys with HDV too so you have options.

I won't knock the HVX. It's a great tool and has a lot of amazing features, but it all depends on what matters most to you.

Personally, I think they're both nearly the same cost when you consider how much P2 you will need, plus laptop, or to wait and go the hard drive route. I love the images I'm seeing from the HVX, but given only one choice, I still would choose the H1 all over again. I love the 1080 look in both 60i and 24F/P. The resolution is superb and it's great in low-light. I can't wait to put a manual lens on mine, and I really dig the SDI thing. It's like a super-firewire port built into the camera, and it has enormous possibilities.

If you're only looking for filmmaking capabilties and workflow, you might feel more instant gratification from the HVX, but the H1 offers a broader range of possibilities IMHO.

Seriously, you might want to consider a Z1U and a Kona LH capture card and go straight to DVCProHD 720P on the fly.

David,
if I was to do this, I would get the FX1 (I have a Beachtek adaptor for sound)
is the Z1U that much better otherwise.

> Let me see if I have this process correct:
record 1080/60 to HDV tape
output HD-SDI (does the Z1U have SDI?) into a Kona Card on a G5
Capture it in FCP and convert it using Cinema tools

Barlow,
DV100 is an I frame codec in Final Cut?
but the HD -SDI is without Sound yes?
(I know sound is on the Tape - it's just an estra step)

Thanks,
(I want a Canon, I just have to figure out how to drop this much all at once)
don't say credit card

- The Canon is the only sub 10.000 camera with SDI.
- The SDI-HD is indeed without sound.

The best I've seen for the Canon is $8499.00 at B&H Photo during Macworld.

Seriously, you might want to consider a Z1U and a Kona LH capture card and go straight to DVCProHD 720P on the fly.

David,
How would you go into the Kona deck with a Z1u/FX1?
(I think these will be updated fairly soon , any way, no? So I would wait (unless I get a great deal on an FX1)

Canon seems like it have the best potential for growth
(unless there is an Adorama solution for the HVX200)

Barlow,
DV100 is an I frame codec in Final Cut?
but the HD -SDI is without Sound yes?
(I know sound is on the Tape - it's just an estra step)

Thanks,
(I want a Canon, I just have to figure out how to drop this much all at once)
don't say credit card

DV100 is i-frame, as well as other codecs at your disposal such as:

uncompressed 10, 8bit QT (requires min. 5 SATA HD RAID)
MJPEG
PhotoJPEG
Apple Intermediate

No sound, but it was meant to be dual system if tapping the SDI, like they do in TV studios. You can play audio out the analog ports and capture it sync'd with no issues in a Kona. I've even captured audio out to the stereo mini-plug in of the G5 and it worked fine. A complete hour of footage captured in one pass and transcoded to DV100 and audio acquired through the cheesy port. No sync problems and sounded shockingly good too.

Lots of options, but I like DVCPRO HD because it's an industry standard with a number of decks you can dump to if needs be.

Did someone say credit card?

David,
How would you go into the Kona deck with a Z1u/FX1?
(I think these will be updated fairly soon , any way, no? So I would wait (unless I get a great deal on an FX1)

If I may answer, the only way to go is via component HD, there's no other HD output on the Sony's besides the Firewire.

DV100 is i-frame, as well as other codecs at your disposal such as:

uncompressed 10, 8bit QT (requires min. 5 SATA HD RAID)
MJPEG
PhotoJPEG
Apple Intermediate

No sound, but it was meant to be dual system if tapping the SDI, like they do in TV studios. You can play audio out the analog ports and capture it sync'd with no issues in a Kona. I've even captured audio out to the stereo mini-plug in of the G5 and it worked fine. A complete hour of footage captured in one pass and transcoded to DV100 and audio acquired through the cheesy port. No sync problems and sounded shockingly good too.

Lots of options, but I like DVCPRO HD because it's an industry standard with a number of decks you can dump to if needs be.

Did someone say credit card?

Barlow,

I would be interested in knowing whether or not it's possible to capture the audio via firewire while capturing video via SDI. And btw, that 'cheesy' mini plug on the G5 has some pretty good specs. Go into Audio/Midi setup from the Apps/Utilities folder where you can set the resolution for audio input and output. The line in can go as high as 24/96 in two channels. Not too shabby.

-gb-

David,
How would you go into the Kona deck with a Z1u/FX1?
(I think these will be updated fairly soon , any way, no? So I would wait (unless I get a great deal on an FX1)


You take the component out plugs from the Z1U into the component inputs on the LH. Record to DVCProHD 100 1080i.

I'm not certain whether you use the XLR outputs on the Z1U or the analog outputs. I'm communicating with AJA right now about that and should have an answer this weekend.

From what I know is that there are only XLR inputs on the Z1, no outputs. So the cinch/RCA outputs and the headphone out (which I do not recommend) are the only options.

Barlow,

I would be interested in knowing whether or not it's possible to capture the audio via firewire while capturing video via SDI. And btw, that 'cheesy' mini plug on the G5 has some pretty good specs. Go into Audio/Midi setup from the Apps/Utilities folder where you can set the resolution for audio input and output. The line in can go as high as 24/96 in two channels. Not too shabby.

-gb-

I'll give it a try, but it's unlikely to work. Audio in MPEG2 m2t is muxed together, but let's see for sure.

btw, I knew the specs were pretty good for the mini-plug audio, so that's why I tested it. I captured 16bit/48Khz uncompressed into DVCPRO HD. Works like a charm, but I'll stick to the Kona XLR plugs just to be extra sure.

From what I know is that there are only XLR inputs on the Z1, no outputs. So the cinch/RCA outputs and the headphone out (which I do not recommend) are the only options.

Then you would use the analog audio connector along with the component out video connector.

Yep, that's (beside the headphone option, which isn't one) the only option. ;-)

So,
Forgive me, I am trying to talk myself into the Canon:

--In the field I could use a firewire capture to my Apple laptop while backing it up on tape ?

--How would you recommend getting 1080/24f into a PB?
capturing 1080/60i and using Cinema tools
or Lumiere
or Natress....?

--I LOVE the fact that in the studio with a Kono card in a G5 I could get uncompressed while still recording to tape.
(It certainly would be a trip if I could be digitizing the sound at the same time)
is it really as simple as this?

--What about the Firstore? will capturing from Tape to G5 through Kona yeild better result than the Firstore??

Thanks,
John

So,
Forgive me, I am trying to talk myself into the Canon:

--In the field I could use a firewire capture to my Apple laptop while backing it up on tape ?

Yes, but it wouldn't be FCP friendly. As of right now, 24F doesn't capture at all to FCP in an HDV preset. It's because it's a true 24p recording to tape, and Apple has been slow to adapt to it. You could capture to HDVxDV simultaneousy, but it would be in m2t's that have to be demuxed for FCP.

Best to just wait for the Firestore to work properly while recording tape simultaneously (maybe CitiDisk HDV can do this) but, again, you will not like editing HDV, especially on a Powerbook. Newer Intel powerbooks may change this perception though.

--How would you recommend getting 1080/24f into a PB?
capturing 1080/60i and using Cinema tools
or Lumiere
or Natress....?

There isn't a good solution for a powerbook with 24F material. Probably have to wait for FCP to have an update, or go back to a studio w/G5/Kona and go with DVCPROHD.


--I LOVE the fact that in the studio with a Kono card in a G5 I could get uncompressed while still recording to tape.
(It certainly would be a trip if I could be digitizing the sound at the same time)
is it really as simple as this?

It really is that simple...the only hitch is that you need to get a timecode BNC to RS422 adapter in order to have matching timecode from tape and SDI acquisition. Not really a big deal though. You could always go the dinosaur route and shoot a slate with a clapper. There is also dual system to consider. The Tascam HD-P2 can record H1 timecode and record uncompressed audio too. You can sync it up easily in a timeline.

--What about the Firstore? will capturing from Tape to G5 through Kona yeild better result than the Firstore??

You can just play the firestore out through SDI and save the tape wear and tear. To me, it's all about getting out of MPEG2 for post. It's possible to conform DV100 material back to the original HDV footage and then print to video back out to HDV, or maybe compress h.264 for a future high-def DVD.

Bottom line: The Kona (or even Decklink HD) opens up an entire new world of possibilities that you wouldn't otherwise consider if only going with firewire/hdv.

Hey, Barlow. Have you tested using the TC out to RS422? I didn't realize that would actually give you Timecode from the tape...are you sure this works?

Also, I just picked up a Tascam HD-P2. Very cool unit. I'll be testing it out this week and let everyone know how it works with chasing TC from the H1. So far, I love the unit. My goals is to use it as a mixer, as well, and send the redundant feed to the H1 for backup. More to come...

Kevin

Hey, Barlow. Have you tested using the TC out to RS422? I didn't realize that would actually give you Timecode from the tape...are you sure this works?

Also, I just picked up a Tascam HD-P2. Very cool unit. I'll be testing it out this week and let everyone know how it works with chasing TC from the H1. So far, I love the unit. My goals is to use it as a mixer, as well, and send the redundant feed to the H1 for backup. More to come...

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

I'm currently searching for the appropriate adapter. I think it's possible, but I also think this will all be superceded by an FCP or Kona software update. All we really need is for the device control to work from firewire, but capture SDI video. I think the Convergent Designs box is also a solution, but an expensive one at that! ($2K!!)

Man, I have been eyeing that Tascam unit--big time!! Can't wait to hear your impressions of it. If I'm not mistaken, can't it also just work as a volume you can mount on the Mac via firewire, and just play the audio files directly to the timeline? That would be cool if possible, but I'm sure I would just copy my files over to a hard drive and work from that.

As far as the HD P2, yes, it has a firewire port on the side. I tried that already and it works flawlessly. You can immediately drag the files onto your media drive. I'm sure you could just play back from the recorder, but not sure why you'd want to do that. Audio is so small that it's a very fast copy.

I'm not sure Apple will allow firewire only for timecode. Let me know if you find the right cable for getting TC from H1 through RS422.

More updates on working with the HD P2 and H1 TC soon.

Kevin

I'm not sure Apple will allow firewire only for timecode.

Im' almost sure that that's gonna work. Because it's a different selection option then the video/audio settings. You can capture Audio/Video via Firewire and do timecode via RS422, so I don't see why not the other way around.